S04.E04: Like Father, Like Daughter

[justcris]

I actually thought the last few scenes played out as if Fitz already knew Rowan was guilty (maybe Jake did get to him in time) and was playing along trying to get further proof. Or maybe I'm just crazy. But the way he replied to Cyrus that he was trying to find out who killed his son made me think he was talking about Rowan and not Tom.

[slayer2]

I wish someone would kill Papa Pope. He took too many innocent lives.

I'm sorry to say it (because Joe Morton is genius) but I agree. Someone has to take this fucker out. If this were Buffy or Angel he'd be dead ten times over already, if it were Arrow he'd at least be locked in a prison somewhere.

 

He's supposed to be a villain but you can't be a good tv villain unless you get your comeuppance, he's already killed a major main character on the show and a child for god's sake. He's starting to remind me of Freddy Krueger or Jason or something. There's a huge psychological shift on a show when you don't hold characters accountable for their actions and when a main character gets away with as much fucked up shit as he has he starts being repositioned from a villain to a protagonist (kind of like T-Bag on Prison Break). We're not supposed to root for him and by all accounts it doesn't look like we are, so why does it seem like the show wants us to? It's exhausting and demented, dude needs to die.

 

Finally, Fitz is too dumb to live. It's impossible that he's this stupid, no wonder Mellie's having emotional seizures being married to him, I was practically having a stroke trying to wrap my head around his idiocy and I now see why Olivia drinks so much.

Jake's real crime is in believing that Fitz can conceptualize anything with something other than his penis. He should have sent the proof in with Olivia popping out of a birthday cake or maybe sketched it out on her garter belt.

Edited October 20, 2014 by slayer2

[topanga]

 

Right now I am so over all things Olitz. They are toxic, sad face, love sick, immature puppy dog eyes having idiots. Olivia is a very capable woman and yes I know "the heart wants what the heart wants" but damn woman let it go.

I could understand--if not agree with--Olivia still getting weak in the knees over Fitz if she weren't still sleeping with Jake. I know it's 2014, and casual sex without a condom is okay again (There's no more HIV or herpes, right?). But Olivia has never been a casual sex kind of person. When she was with Edison, she was with him and tried to make their relationship work--despite her feelings for Fitz. With Jake, she isn't trying to have a relationship with him an only uses him for sex.  This isn't Olivia's M.O. And then to passionately kiss Fitz? The first thing that ran through my mind was, "Damn. Aren't Jake's bodily fluids still in your mouth? Gross."

Edited October 20, 2014 by topanga

[St. Claire]

The only thing I liked about the First Daughter sex tape story was that it shined a big ole light on the sexism and hypocrisy that runs so rampant in TV land and real life. What Karen did was hugely irresponsible (hooray for Olivia's reference to the doc doing a proper exam and the safe sex talk!) but Mellie was spot on in saying that the boys in the threesome wouldn't have been under the same type of scrutiny. Also, the fact that Mellie articulated the conflict of "My baby girl is doing WHAT?!" with an actual acknowledgement of how being sexually active for empowering/enjoyable reasons should be as viable an option for a girl as for a boy. Scummy boy's parents were totally on board with calling the First Daughter a little whore, but didn't seem to have an issue with the two boys with whom she shared airtime being involved in the same dirty sex act. (I looked up Eiffel Tower-ing on Urban Dictionary. In all honesty, it wasn't as offensive as I'd expected it to be after hearing Liv describe the phone video as "the dirtiest sex tape [she's] ever seen.") 

[DearEvette]

I dunno, I thought the sexual empowerment messaging felt off and Mellie came off as hypocritical.

 

In the scene where Olivia has just brought Karen home and she admits to drinking and shooting up, Fitz, rightly so asks her if she was raped.  This is an appropriate response and question from him.  But Karen freaks out and trumpets out righteously "How dare you ask what they did to me, what about what I did to them!' Or some such... blather.  But in the next scene she admits she had no idea what was going on because she was out of it and so wasted.  It completely contradicts the whole idea that she had any real agency.  She comes off and incredibly dumb, not empowered.

 

And then when we get to Mellie, yes, the speech she gave was true and right.  But it would have gone down easier for me if we hadn't just come off an entire season where Mellie loudly and frequently called Olivia a whore.  She was angry at Fitz, yes, but her anger at Fitz was because he had the audacity to fall in love with Olivia, not just because he fucked her.  She allowed Fitz the legitimacy of true love, but she just constantly slut shamed Olivia.  My biggest frustration with Mellie last year was that if Olivia was a slut and a whore, then Fitz was even moresoe because he was the one breaking his marriage vows. 

 

Yeah, last season ruined both Mellie and Olivia for me. At least Olivia is seemingly being turned around this season so far, Mellie ... not so much.

Edited October 21, 2014 by DearEvette

[Nanrad]

No.  Just no.  That girl needed a billboard of pictures and the hacking skills of Quinn to figure out who she had sex with and the only thing she gets from her mother is  "if you were a boy people would be high fiving you...' blah blah blah  'sexual empowerment' blah blah blah  ' free pass' blah blah blah. And a hug and we are supposed to melt? Because Mellie is sad?  No.  Why is Olivia the only one who is talking about an STD?  Why is Fitz the only one who asked if she was raped? 

 

Shit, all Vanessa Huxtable did was sneak off to a concert in New Jersey and Claire gave her a read that scared me through my tv set.

 

When Fitz said 'You mother no one." and "rewriting history Mellie" My ass cheered the hell out of him.  What the hell has Mellie ever done for three seasons except walk around eating bitter cake (I don't count season one where she was perfectly happy for her Fitz to have Olivia)?  I need more to like a character than her victimhood and her rages.  She annoys the ever loving crap out of me.  Her screaming at Liv while running down the hall in her stupid bathrobe had to be some of the dumbest  shit I've seen.

Mellie doesn't know the specifics of how Olivia found the guys (via billboard) or that Karen didn't literally know them, including their names. All she knew was that her daughter was in a sex tape. Mellie probably went through several scenarios on how to deal with Karen, but realized that when watching that tape, Karen wasn't enjoying herself. Karen's behavior was a result of her brother's tragic and unforeseen death as well as both emotional neglect by her parents. So, Karen wanted to forget about his death and feel something all at the same time. And that's what Mellie thinks about when she talks to her daughter because she went through the same thing in a different way. 

 

Although what Karen did was a huge mistake, Mellie touches on the double standard because of how unfair it is for Karen to be perfect at all times, especially because she's a female, but males would get away with that behavior. The sex tape is WORSE because of Karen's gender. Because it was two guys sharing her. It's not touching because Mellie's sad, it's touching because Mellie put her anger aside and put herself in her daughter's shoes. She already knew that it must've been hard for Karen with the impending scandal, but she thought deeper about it and how it's hard for her in general with Jerry's death. That, perhaps, she wouldn't try to criticize Karen if Karen actually wanted to do those things (meaning was really into it and not as an escape). I don't think that Mellie doesn't care if Karen has a STD or was raped, but wanted to address the issue from a different perspective.

 

Mellie was happy for Olivia to have Fitz because she thought it was just sex. She and Fitz may have hated one another as lovers, but she thought that could've been business partners and he gave that to Olivia as well. I think she would've been fine with Amanda Tanner if Amanda Tanner hadn't opened her mouth. Remember, she got upset at Olivia because since she couldn't be there to occupy Fitz, he strayed and brought a scandal with him.That says she wasn't necessarily happy about the affair, but put up with it to get in the WH.

 

Could one guy on this show who has interest in Olivia not try to use sex to get what they want. It's actually kind of funny writing that out because many many female characters on tv past and present have used sex as a tool or are a lazy piece of sexual obsession for another male. But, dammit, I'm over Fitz and Jake using sex to get into her mind. Even more than that, I'm tired of Olivia going weak for it. It's past the point where I think it's sexy. Jake talking about what he makes her do physically in bed and Fitz putting her hand down her dress instead of having a real conversation is getting really fucking old.

 

On another note, who the hell is Fitz to be asking any questions about why or where Olivia was. Until he leaves his wife, there are no questions he can ask that are justified. Kick rocks man,

 

I did enjoy the episode but I found everything about the Fitz/Olivia scene infuriating.

Well, TBH to Jake, they were already kind of fooling around when he said/did that. They were taking turns pleasing one another, Olivia was distracted and it somehow led to talking about Fitz, and then Jake reminded Olivia why she kept him around--SEX. Fitz just thinks with his dick.

 

Personally, I think he should kick boulders or spikes, but that's just me.

 

Please kill Olitz.

I dunno, I thought the sexual empowerment messaging felt off and Mellie came off as hypocritical.

 

In the scene where Olivia has just brought Karen home and she admits to drinking and shooting up, Fitz, rightly so asks her if she was raped.  This is an appropriate response and question from him.  But Karen freaks out and trumpets out righteously "How dare you ask what they did to me, what about what I did to them!' Or some such... blather.  But in the next scene she admits she had no idea what was going on because she was out of it and so wasted.  It completely contradicts the whole idea that she had any real agency.  She comes off and incredibly dumb, not empowered.

 

And then when we get to Mellie, yes, the speech she gave was true and right.  But it would have gone down easier for me if we hadn't just come off an entire season where Mellie loudly and frequently called Olivia a whore.  She was angry at Fitz, yes, but her anger at Fitz was because he had the audacity to fall in love with Olivia, not just because he fucked her.  She allowed Fitz the legitimacy of true love, but she just constantly slut shamed Olivia.  My biggest frustration with Mellie last year was that if Olivia was a slut and a whore, then Fitz was even moresoe because he was the one breaking his marriage vows. 

 

Yeah, last season ruined both Mellie and Olivia for me. At least Olivia is seemingly being turned around this season so far, Mellie ... not so much.

Well, this assumes that Karen didn't want to get drunk and high and have sex. Some people do that, especially if they are in a bad place emotionally. At the same time, you have to consider how Fitz spoke to her vs. how Mellie spoke to her. Fitz was angry, and then demanding before softening about the rape. Mellie was just open and soft all around. She was easier to talk to. So, even if Karen planned to get high and drunk and have sex, things could've spiraled out of control because she didn't know her limit, which means she did so much she couldn't remember. Despite the lack of memories, Karen seemed more disturbed by the existence of a tape then she did at having sex with a guy or even two guys. When she's trying to find them, there isn't any worry, fear, anxiety, etc about finding the guys she had sex with. Does this conclusively prove she wasn't raped, no. But, at the same time, I think it's important to consider when talking about rape. Karen wasn't trying to sound empowered, she was acting out against her father because of his emotional neglect against her after Jerry died. He only "cares" for her because it makes his presidency look bad.

 

True love or not, Olivia was the other woman and allowed herself to be the other woman. Olivia could be his true love and not get involved in an affair with him, BUT she chose to have an affair with Fitz. Mellie's brand of slut shaming Olivia is very different from what she spoke about with Karen. Karen could get slut shamed for experimenting and if she deviates from normal female "behavior". Olivia got slut shamed not because she was having sex and/or fell in love, but because she decided to act on her feelings of love for a married man and have sex with him. Even if women like that aren't slut shamed, they are looked down upon--men too, but not as much because...double standards. Mellie doesn't care what Olivia does with other men, but she does care about what goes on in her marriage whether or not they are the couple they portray themselves to be. 

[Eucrid]

The only thing I liked about the First Daughter sex tape story was that it shined a big ole light on the sexism and hypocrisy that runs so rampant in TV land and real life. What Karen did was hugely irresponsible (hooray for Olivia's reference to the doc doing a proper exam and the safe sex talk!) but Mellie was spot on in saying that the boys in the threesome wouldn't have been under the same type of scrutiny.

Sure if some no one in a frat was caught on tape in a threesome they'd probably get high fives all round from their idiot friends. If the Presidents highschool age son was caught high on drugs, drunk and in a sex tape of a threesome it'd be a massive scandal that would define his life too.

[Eolivet]

If the Presidents highschool age son was caught high on drugs, drunk and in a sex tape of a threesome it'd be a massive scandal that would define his life too.

 

I don't agree with this at all. As other posters have stated, boys and men of all ages are given an incredible amount of leeway when it comes to sexual activity. The President's son would have his face in the tabloids for three weeks, but then America would be onto the next because "boys will be boys." Just look at the Senators, Governors and politicians involved in sexual scandals, who the public kept reelecting. And then see how clean a female politician has to keep her image. Ted Kennedy can have a dead girl in his car, and get reelected numerous times -- yet Hillary Clinton is a concern if she projects the image of a grandmother. The double standard is real and it is rampant.

 

I actually thought Fitz's "I'm a failure as a man" speech was a sly bit of misandry on Shonda's part. In this episode about female sexuality being put on display, hidden and then attempted to be sold for profit, Fitz claiming that Liv's departure made him look impotent was...an interesting contrast to say the least.

[Anna Yolei]

I don't agree with this at all. As other posters have stated, boys and men of all ages are given an incredible amount of leeway when it comes to sexual activity. The President's son would have his face in the tabloids for three weeks, but then America would be onto the next because "boys will be boys." Just look at the Senators, Governors and politicians involved in sexual scandals, who the public kept reelecting. And then see how clean a female politician has to keep her image. Ted Kennedy can have a dead girl in his car, and get reelected numerous times -- yet Hillary Clinton is a concern if she projects the image of a grandmother. The double standard is real and it is rampant.

.

I've met folks at other political boards who actually used Hilary's staying with Bill after the Lewinsky scandal as a mark against HER. One of whom was a woman herself. I'm no fan of Hilary myself, but....really?

[St. Claire]

If Jerry were still alive and got caught in a sex tape scandal, I honestly believe that the criticism would be that he was dumb enough to get caught on video, not that he'd engaged in a threeway. Scummy Boy's parents want to talk about how the First Daughter is a big slut? How about the fact that their son is also engaged in a sex act with two other people? There are three children in this video, the only one being criticized for it is the female.

 

I hope this incident is what snaps Mellie out of her bereavement funk and jolts her into kicking ass and taking names. Sweatpants and Uggs Mellie made for a compelling character (briefly), but I am ready for her to move into the stage of grief that allows her to be back among the real world. She can keep day drinking and eating chips if she wants, though.