S04.E02: The State Of The Union

[Julia]

Wow, Abby's an awful human being. Maybe it's the actress, because I thought her characters in Castle and NCIS were grating too. I just feel as if I should dislike her less because she was abused, but I can't think of anything else sympathetic about her, and her behavior is just uniformly self-righteous and whiny and shabby. I think she's turning into baby Cyrus the same way Quinn is baby Huck, just maybe a little less with the incest.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Julia

[Sidney]

Wow, Abby's an awful human being. Maybe it's the actress, because I thought her characters in Castle and NCIS were grating too.

 

 

I think it's the actress. To be honest, the only one of the associates I ever had any interest in was Stephen.

[topanga]

Cyrus has left all of his humanity behind in the service of Fitz

Your entire post was spot-on, Julia. I remember when Olivia asked Cyrus at the end of last season, "When did we stop being people?" (Or something like that). Cyrus's response: "Were we ever people?" Yes, they were. I remember in the flashbacks from "The Trail" when Cyrus was still a fairly optimistic guy who felt that all Fitz needed was right PR person to get his campaign on track. He hadn't yet become Fitz's murderous and cheating guard dog. At least, I don't think he had.

[lion10]

Wow, Abby's an awful human being. Maybe it's the actress, because I thought her characters in Castle and NCIS were grating too. I just feel as if I should dislike her less because she was abused, but I can't think of anything else sympathetic about her, and her behavior is just uniformly self-righteous and whiny and shabby. I think she's turning into baby Cyrus the same way Quinn is baby Huck, just maybe a little less with the incest.

I thought she looked familiar! She played Meredith on Castle.

[Calamity Jane]

OK, did I miss something big in the timing here?  The State of the Union address is given in January, not October.  And even in October, in Washington, D.C., the leaves would be at least turning color,  if not all off the trees.  Instead we see scene after scene of lush green foliage on all the trees in sight.  It bugs the crap out of me when shows ignore that kind of thing.  

 

Also, a smaller error of continuity -- when Olivia was talking to Fitz, she was shown with her purse on her elbow, with a badge/tag clearly showing.  Next shot, it's in her hand,  no badge/tag visible.  At the end of the scene, in her hand, no badge or tag.  Sloppy.  

[RollingCones]

Are we supposed to forget that Cyrus and James adopted a daughter? Ella, right? Who is taking care of her while Cyrus is serving at the pleasure of the President?

Edited October 7, 2014 by RollingCones

[Darknight]

Sorry I hate how Mellie thinks she's above everyone else. The conversation between Mellie and Cyrus did have me fuming. Yes Mellie lost a child but Cyrus also lost someone close to his heart. That's like saying your grief is greater than my grief. I do hope Mellie finds love soon. That women is a wreck.

Are we supposed to forget that Cyrus and James adopted a daughter? Ella, right? Who is taking care of her while Cyrus is serving at the pleasure of the President?

Nanny

[lunastartron]

Sorry I hate how Mellie thinks she's above everyone else. The conversation between Mellie and Cyrus did have me fuming. Yes Mellie lost a child but Cyrus also lost someone close to his heart. That's like saying your grief is greater than my grief. I do hope Mellie finds love soon. That women is a wreck.

Nanny

Cyrus lost someone on whom he ordered a hit and tried to use as sexual bait in order to out a third party. Mellie lost her firstborn child. I'd definitely say her grief is more legitimate than his.

OK, did I miss something big in the timing here?  The State of the Union address is given in January, not October.  And even in October, in Washington, D.C., the leaves would be at least turning color,  if not all off the trees.  Instead we see scene after scene of lush green foliage on all the trees in sight.  It bugs the crap out of me when shows ignore that kind of thing.  

 

Also, a smaller error of continuity -- when Olivia was talking to Fitz, she was shown with her purse on her elbow, with a badge/tag clearly showing.  Next shot, it's in her hand,  no badge/tag visible.  At the end of the scene, in her hand, no badge or tag.  Sloppy.  

The timeline has never synced with reality. The Presidential election is not held in May. But completely true about the verdant backdrops.

[Darknight]

Cyrus lost someone on whom he ordered a hit and tried to use as sexual bait in order to out a third party. Mellie lost her firstborn child. I'd definitely say her grief is more legitimate than his.

But Mellie hated and ignored her son for years because she thought he was Big Jerry's. I don't think her grief is more legitimate than his.

[Julia]

Cyrus lost someone on whom he ordered a hit and tried to use as sexual bait in order to out a third party. Mellie lost her firstborn child. I'd definitely say her grief is more legitimate than his.

But Mellie hated and ignored her son for years because she thought he was Big Jerry's. I don't think her grief is more legitimate than his.

I don't agree with the concept of "legitimate" grief. I think perhaps what you're discussing is whether you find their grief sympathetic. I think they're both pretty easy to judge, as far as that goes.

Are they faultless? No. But, for whatever little it's worth, I think Mellie's not being close to her dead son because she (as far as she knows, wrongly) associated him with rape and the death of her marriage is a pretty solid reason to feel grief, especially since pretty much the last thing he said before he died was that he hated and resented his parents. Cyrus knows the only person who made him feel valued for himself died for his sins. Were they both, to some degree, in the wrong? Sure. That's only going to make the pain worse, JMO.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Julia

[Dejana]

I really can't hold it against Mellie or Fitz not spending time with their older kids when IMO it's more of a product of them being characters on a TV show where TPTB had almost zero interest in writing about children for 95 percent of the show's run. It's not like Jerry and Karen were regular onscreen characters the whole time and Mellie ignored them to get drunk and get her hair done. They were just off in boarding school (when IRL, you'd probably have to go back to Coolidge or something, to find kids of a sitting POTUS who attended boarding school--presidents get flack for sending their kids to private day schools, boarding school would be viewed as wildly elitist) because Shonda probably thought kids would be a buzzkill. It's like how TV characters are hardly ever concerned about their toddlers never talking and having to be carried everywhere, not because they're ignoring developmental issues, but because it's way easier to film with three year olds that way.

[l star]

I agree. I think there is plenty of evidence that while Mellie had trouble connecting as much with Jerry as her other kids, she was still involved in his life. But then Mellie's mothering has almost always been entirely off screen. She's shown multiple times how aware she is of what is going on with them and is the go-between for them to Fitz. She hasn't been shown to be as involved with Teddy so far but my opinion on that is that, as she said, Mellie just doesn't like babies. Given what else we've seen of her personality that seems very in character.

I don't think it can be argued whether grief is legitimate or not. I do sympathize with Mellie more than Cyrus though because of their past behavior. I think Cyrus misses having someone at home to bang him and put up with him more than he misses James. I bought that he loved Janes and knew he was the best he would ever do but I never really bought that Cyrus' love ran all that deep. I still don't.

Mellie's grief on the other hand is really resonating with me. I think that is partially Mellie herself and partially the power of that part of the show. I find Mellie's pain heartbreaking, as well as Fitz's devotion to seeing her through this and the Secret Service's gentle way with her. They are really capturing that air of grief and helplessness that can permeate through an entire household.

I do wish we had seen more of the Oval Office scene when she told Fitz she was attending the SOTU. While the build up in his speech of nervously hoping she was there worked on me like crazy, his acknowledgement of her in his speech came across as so genuine that I woukd like to have seen what was said before.

[Chicago Redshirt]

She could, but the question remains why she would particularly want to if she has no sensation in her legs. Surely not for her own physical comfort.

We don't know if she has no sensation in her legs. We just know that she can't walk.

 

But assuming for discussion's sake she has no sensation, she still may want to switch position of her legs for circulation or appearance's sake.

[lunastartron]

Earnest question: during that ten-month spell when Fitz decided to become an abusive drunk toward everyone - and not just his mistress - didn't the Grant children trust Mellie enough to run interference for them because they preferred not to be around their dad? Or was that just Teddy and Lizzie? I think the writing has been inconsistent (big surprise) on whether or not the Grants younger have been shuffled off/neglected. A significant part of that inconsistency is the fact that Mellie's rape was rather hammily retconned into the plot.

 

Regardless, mileage varies and all that, but I don't exactly consider poor parenting and, you know, premeditated murder attempts to be exactly analogous. Additionally, in the context of the narrative, the former has been attributed to lingering/repressed rape trauma and the latter to career concerns/megalomania.

 

Even in the nonsensical, socially disordered universe these characters inhabit, I personally contend that actively orchestrating someone's demise represents an absolute. Either Cryus values Jame's life or he did not. Among an array of self-indulgent characters, Cyrus's recurring efforts to shoehorn a "poor me" perspective into other people's angst strikes me as particularly ridiculous. I think a lot of this is attributable to scripting decisions and the dearth of continuity. For instance, after he made one of Fitz's drama-queen episodes all about how he never had a chance of being President because he was gay, didn't we learn that Cyrus was closeted and married to a woman until immediately prior to the first campaign? So he was evidently politically viable in that respect well into his adulthood . . .

[Ohmo]

Mellie's grief on the other hand is really resonating with me. I think that is partially Mellie herself and partially the power of that part of the show. I find Mellie's pain heartbreaking, as well as Fitz's devotion to seeing her through this and the Secret Service's gentle way with her. They are really capturing that air of grief and helplessness that can permeate through an entire household.

 

I do wish we had seen more of the Oval Office scene when she told Fitz she was attending the SOTU. While the build up in his speech of nervously hoping she was there worked on me like crazy, his acknowledgement of her in his speech came across as so genuine that I woukd like to have seen what was said before.

 

Bolding by me.  I was also struck by his acknowledgement of her in the sppech.  I rewatched those scenes several times, and the look on his face as she rose in response to the audience seemed to be one of intense concern, and not concern for the speech either.  He seemed concerned about her.

[Julia]

Regardless, mileage varies and all that, but I don't exactly consider poor parenting and, you know, premeditated murder attempts to be exactly analogous. Additionally, in the context of the narrative, the former has been attributed to lingering/repressed rape trauma and the latter to career concerns/megalomania.

 

Morally, I don't think they're in the same ballpark at all (although I think we're ignoring the fact that Mellie, by setting the situation with Sally's husband up, has some grieving to do about James' death as well). They may not be on the same level morally, but they have both lost people who were enormously important to them, and who they can't ever get back, and they both are dealing with massive grief. I don't think how much they "deserve" to feel grief affects how much grief they feel.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Julia