S02.E09: Welcome to the Rebellion

[tv-talk]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Luthen may appear to be more powerful than Mon or the Rebellion's version of William Cecil, but he really is not. There is a time for spies, and a time for generals, and then a time for politicians. Right now is the time for Luthen.

Have to disagree with that. If your closest aid who advised you on all matters, helped you write your epic speeches, sees into your personal life, and who you trust as a dear confidant and friend is actually on someone else's payroll to spy on you...you're being played.

 

Now that they are moving into the stage of open war, army vs army, you can see where Luthen's doings become subservient to what's obviously happening in the open conflict and where Mon will eventually develop into the actual leader of the whole enterprise. However for these past years of fomenting a rebellion it was certainly Luthen at the top of the pyramid.

Edited May 12 by tv-talk

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

Have to disagree with that. If your closest aid who advised you on all matters, helped you write your epic speeches, sees into your personal life, and who you trust as a dear confidant and friend is actually on someone else's payroll to spy on you...you're being played.

I can see this interpretation even if I disagree with it. I don't see Luthen as playing Mon here, I see him protecting her. Of course he has someone on her staff that reports to him. That is but one way that he is protecting her. He's also got someone on Bail's staff which is probably how he was able to figure out the ISB had infiltrated his team. I get that Mon feels hurt and betrayed. It's a natural response in the moment.

I can also see the critique that the show is too quick to paint Luthen as always right in his assessments. There are still 3 episodes left and Luthen does not have any Rogue One plot armor. There is still time for him to end up in a situation where he is wrong with some deadly consequences.

[Ilovepie]

This episode really got me. That speech got me - it's a little too close to home in our world right now, you know? Mon Mothma is very brave, as brave to me as anyone else, and with more to lose. But she isn't a spy or a soldier. Everyone has their part to play, and she is moving into the leadership role she is born to play, but she is definitely not in Coruscant anymore, and I am sure there will be a steep learning curve. I am glad Erskine made it out too, even if she was pissed at him. 

Did anyone else think that Bail was going to mention his daughter when he was talking to Mon Mothma? I for sure thought we would get a Leia name drop!

"I choose the rebellion". Damn. I would have bet that Bix (and Wilmon!) were going to die, but no! I honestly don't know what's more heartbreaking, if Bix had died, or her running away and saying they can be together afterwards. Gut wrenching. I swear, this show has made me cry more than all other Star Wars shows and movies combined. I think only other time I got emotional for a Star Wars show was the last episode of Mandalorian Season 2, and here multiple times in the last two episodes. I don't know if I can take it!

I love that we got a reprieve from the heartbreak with the introduction of K-2SO - my favorite droid ever! I've been waiting since the beginning of this show. My favorite Star Wars quote of all time: "I find that answer vague and unconvincing". I have used it frequently on my kids.  

Not ready to say goodbye to Cassian (again), but can't wait for tomorrow. I think more tears are on the way.......

 

 

[paigow]

If Luthen & Kleya have to die before Rogue One, hopefully, they go out like Gorman & Vasquez from Aliens...

 

 

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I can also see the critique that the show is too quick to paint Luthen as always right in his assessments.

Does the show paint Luthen as always right? We haven't seen that the results he hoped to see from the Empire cracking down after Aldhani ever came about. The series never showed that it was turning public opinion. They got money from the raid, but while it caused a lot of additional misery for many people, it doesn't seem to have roused anyone against the Empire (other than, eventually, Cassian, and he escaped before the end of even what his sentence should have been, so the new guidelines didn't really make a difference). The prisoners knew about the sentencing directive, but Cassian had never even heard about it. As a result of Luthen disregarding Cassian's advice about the Ghorman Front, Cinta got killed and they ended up playing right into the ISB's hands. Since the series showed what the ISB was doing to manipulate things on Ghorman in parallel with Luthen's planning, the series was showing that Luthen was wrong.

[Ohiopirate02]

25 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Does the show paint Luthen as always right? We haven't seen that the results he hoped to see from the Empire cracking down after Aldhani ever came about. The series never showed that it was turning public opinion. They got money from the raid, but while it caused a lot of additional misery for many people, it doesn't seem to have roused anyone against the Empire (other than, eventually, Cassian, and he escaped before the end of even what his sentence should have been, so the new guidelines didn't really make a difference). The prisoners knew about the sentencing directive, but Cassian had never even heard about it. As a result of Luthen disregarding Cassian's advice about the Ghorman Front, Cinta got killed and they ended up playing right into the ISB's hands. Since the series showed what the ISB was doing to manipulate things on Ghorman in parallel with Luthen's planning, the series was showing that Luthen was wrong.

There's also Melshi who left Cassian last season wanting to get the word.out about prison conditions. He's now at Yavin (carrying the blaster Cassian took from Syril). Who knows how many people he was able to recruit. 

When it comes to Ghorman, none of the characters are operating with the knowledge the audience has. We can see how the Ghorman resistance played into the Empire's plan, but there was no way for Cassian, Luthen, Vel, or Cinta could know that Syril was feeding the Ghor information. Shoot, even Syril didn't know what that operation was really about. 

[Shanna Marie]

15 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

When it comes to Ghorman, none of the characters are operating with the knowledge the audience has. We can see how the Ghorman resistance played into the Empire's plan, but there was no way for Cassian, Luthen, Vel, or Cinta could know that Syril was feeding the Ghor information. Shoot, even Syril didn't know what that operation was really about. 

But the question was whether the show paints Luthen as always right. The other characters don't know what was really going on in Ghorman, but the audience knew, so the show was showing us that Luthen was wrong. It sounds like Vel left Luthen's group, since Bix mentioned she'd been smuggling, and now she's working with the rebel military at Yavin, so at least one character appears to have decided Luthen was wrong. Cassian also seems to have loosened his ties with Luthen, since he's living at Yavin and seemed surprised that Luthen knew he'd been injured, perhaps pissed off that Luthen disregarded him and Cinta got killed because of that. Also, Kleya wins debates with Luthen. He wanted to keep the radio connection to Ferrix open because Bix might know where Cassian was, but Kleya talked him down from that (and was right, since Bix was captured). I don't see where the "the show wants us to think Luthen is infallible" idea came from. He's always thinking a step or two ahead, but he also is wrong about things and makes some blunders.

As for Mon Mothma's role, it seems like there are phases to the rebellion. In the first phase, it was more of a guerilla movement. It was about intelligence and sabotage, raising funds and doing some recruitment. It was shadowy and in the dark, and that was Luthen's realm. Mon Mothma was somewhat involved in the fundraising and laying some groundwork for an eventual political movement and was doing what she could through existing official channels, but was not truly involved in the actual rebellion. The military branch started building between seasons, beginning to unite various cells into an actual military and start arming. Then with the Ghorman speech and leaving the Senate, Mon Mothma really joined the movement as leader of the political end of the rebellion, which meant being involved in the actual war, which is more of an open war. Thus it's apt to welcome her to the rebellion. You could say Cassian welcomed her to the fighting part of it, which she hadn't been involved in before. She was in physical danger like she hadn't been before.

The transition as Luthen becomes less important once they're in open war and there's a political leadership and Mon Mothma becomes more important as a figurehead may be interesting. He's got enough of an ego that he may chafe at being eclipsed. He's said he doesn't expect to get credit, but there's got to be a part of him that would like some recognition.

[tv-talk]

5 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

There are still 3 episodes left and Luthen does not have any Rogue One plot armor. There is still time for him to end up in a situation where he is wrong with some deadly consequences.

Oh I fully expect Luthen to die, no question about that. I'd go so far as to say with him living no one else could truly be the leader of the Rebellion. 

[tv-talk]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

so the show was showing us that Luthen was wrong

I'd say the opposite tbh. Remember when Cassian said something about what if Ghorman went up in flames and Luthen response was something like "It will burn bright"?

The result of the Ghorman massacre is going to be a full scale rebellion which is what Luthen had in mind all along. He was virtually salivating at the thought of a rich place like Ghorman under the Imperial thumb and fighting back because of the huge deal that would be across the galaxy and in the Senate.

When Cassian was saying not do anything on Ghorman because they werent ready and would get slaughtered, Luthen was basically responding that would be just fine if they were slaughtered. Just like Dedra, he wanted a rebellion on Ghorman and had no illusions about it being a successful rebellion but rather a useful one.

Cassian was thinking like a soldier ie how could Ghorman beat the Imperials, Luthen fancied himself thinking like a leader ie how could Ghorman losing the battle win the rebellion the war.

Edited May 13 by tv-talk

[andromeda331]

Welcome to the Rebellion, Mon Mothma!

It took guts to give speech like that knowing she'd be arrested afterwards. All her efforts to try and fix things through the Senate she finally realized with the Ghorman Massacre it would never happen. All of her efforts have been for nothing the only thing left is a full scale rebellion. 

I didn't like Luthen casting doubt on Bail Organa, was he lying or does he not know Bail's in too? Especially since he's planning on leaving in a year. I wondered if he was waiting for Leia to be eighteen before coming out against Palpatine and putting her at risk? Or if had other reasons.

Even though I know she gets out it was still nail biting watching her and Andor trying to get off the planet. Ending up at his safe house.

I was so happy to see Wilmon! I was worried he was dead. I know he could still die later but at the moment I'm happy he's alive. 

I didn't want to see Bix break up with Cassian. That was so sad. They love each other but she chose the Rebellion. I'm still worried she'll get killed off. I wonder if she left him and the Rebellion or just him. Is she still going to do stuff for the Rebellion.

I wish we got a scene with Mon and Perrin. What does he think it is going on? Is happy or pissed that she left publicly to not just join the Rebellion but lead it. I still think back to him seeing her drunk at the wedding and looked concerned. Does Leida care? 

[KimberStormer]

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Oh I fully expect Luthen to die, no question about that. I'd go so far as to say with him living no one else could truly be the leader of the Rebellion. 

And I expect not only will he die but die heroically somehow and there will be some kind of thing about how nobody knows who was the real founder of the Rebellion blah blah, because "my self-insert OC is actually the bestest toughest leaderest guy in the galaxy".

I actually liked Luthen this episode, he seemed human in his self-doubt when he said he shouldn't have told Mon about her aide.  But the creators' thumb is on his side of the scale over and over.  He gets to lecture Saw, Lonni, Cassian, Mon, Bix, everyone. (I was cheering last season when Saw said "No sale today, Luthen"...but then a couple episodes later he was like "Never mind, I'm in! Right as always, Luthen!")  Yes Kleya sometimes gets to stand up to him, that doesn't really mean much since she's his girl Friday, and this season, she gets lectured too about the bug in the antique.

[Ohiopirate02]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

 

I didn't like Luthen casting doubt on Bail Organa, was he lying or does he not know Bail's in too? Especially since he's planning on leaving in a year. I wondered if he was waiting for Leia to be eighteen before coming out against Palpatine and putting her at risk? Or if had other reasons.

I didn't see Luthen casting doubt on Bail's commitment to the Rebellion. Luthen was doing some good counter espionage here. He knows the ISB has infiltrated Bail's team, and he knows that is not necessarily a bad thing. He's telling Mon not to trust Bail because he knows the team Bail trusts but has never met (for obvious security reasons) is compromised. And instead of blowing that up and tipping off the ISB that the Rebels know about their spycraft, he sends Cassian.

[Shanna Marie]

11 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I'd say the opposite tbh. Remember when Cassian said something about what if Ghorman went up in flames and Luthen response was something like "It will burn bright"?

The result of the Ghorman massacre is going to be a full scale rebellion which is what Luthen had in mind all along.

But he still missed entirely that he was playing into the ISB's hands, that the ISB wanted them to revolt, so he wasn't all-seeing or all-knowing, and it's possible that he's not getting quite the full effect he wanted, since the ISB was already out there with the anti-Ghor propaganda. Some people might be outraged enough to rebel, and it is enough for a tipping point, but since he played into the Empire's hands, the counter-message was already out there and there's likely still a significant chunk of the population that considered the Empire's actions to be justified in putting down a violent uprising against Imperial norms. He got something that burned brightly, but he also gave the Empire the justification to destroy Ghorman.

Granted, Cassian's objection was about whether the Ghorman front could be at all effective not that they were doing what the Empire wanted, but Luthen's intelligence failed him in figuring out that the ISB wanted a revolt and had a plant in place, and he got one of his own people killed and splintered his group. I don't think that depicts him as infallible. I think a lot of the illusion of infallibility is Luthen's own perceptions that he projects. He's certain that he's the smartest person in any room, and that's the way he presents himself. The show depicts that he has blindspots and c***** in his armor.

[Megras]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

 and c***** in his armor.

What has he got in his armour that needs censoring :D

[Mr. Sparkle]

8 minutes ago, Megras said:

What has he got in his armour that needs censoring :D

My mind is racing with the possibilities! 

[Raja]

His armor is fine, that humans but not A.I can determine that sometimes words with different meanings are spelled the same is its weakness. Not as bad as not being able to name the Catholic's Patron Saint of music and Palermo but still one of those things that modern life that wears on me.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Megras said:

What has he got in his armour that needs censoring :D

Yikes! I guess I need to find another word for "small gap." Or maybe I should have said "flaw."

This is like when Facebook censored my comment telling someone I didn't need them to go to extra effort because I said it as "don't knock yourself out." Apparently, I was encouraging violence.

 

[angora]

Crap, the forum ate my post!

It's wild that this was Cassian and Mon's first meeting, with so few episodes left in the show. I loved the whole escape. Mon was scared, overwhelmed, and shocked at the killing, but she still had the wherewithal to give Cassian info he needed, like an alternate exit when their way was blocked and warning him that they couldn't trust her driver. Meanwhile, Cassian absolutely took care of business, doing whatever needed to be done to get Mon out safely, including knowing how to convince her to trust him.

I also loved the interplay between Mon and Bail--when you throw in Bix and Cassian at the end too, there were "you can't stay, and I can't go" parallels all over the place. And the speech was badass.

K-2SO! Love! So happy he's finally here!

[tkc]

From @scadarts:

[andromeda331]

I usually don't like when shows name drop the title in the episodes because it's usually clunky. But I love it in this season. They did a real good job of making it come off natural. My favorite being Cassian welcoming Mon Mothma to the rebellion.