paulvdb March 20 Share March 20 Quote Rand faces the forgotten history of his family as Moiraine learns the devastating truth of her future. Expand Premiere date: March 20, 2025 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/
thuganomics85 March 20 Share March 20 I've always been a sucker for the whole "characters reveals they have multiple hidden weapons" cliche, so I definitely got a kick out of all of the numerous knives and whatnot Moiraine kept pulling out of her dress before they went in for the test. Woman is prepared for everything! Kind of a slow episode compared to the previous three and I'm not sure all of it worked for me, but I did like some of the insights that were provided by seeing Rand's ancestors throughout the centuries. Really liked revisiting The Way of the Leaf group, because they are fascinating. I get the appeal to avoid violence at all possible, but it's just wild that you can be shunned for defending your sisters from a bandit. That particular ancestor really got the raw end of the deal. It was also crazy seeing again that civilization was almost futuristic way, way, way back in the past. I can only wonder for now what led to regressing in that aspect. Josha Stradowski did a pretty good job with the various versions of Rand's ancestors. Miles difference compared to his more stiff and wooden performance way back in S1. He really seems to have improved in a lot of ways. Looks like Moiraine saw a whole lot of potential futures and a lot of them don't look fun for either her or Rand. It was going by very quickly, but it looks like a lot of them involved Lanfear being the one who kills her. Also one where Egwene kills Rand?! And, of course, there is at least one where Moiraine and Rand hook up. Seems kind of wrong for some reason. I'm sure a lot of these revelations will come into play later, but hopefully next week's episode will have more of the other characters again. 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8612720
MissLucas March 21 Share March 21 Well, the rumours were not wrong. That was several truckloads - or 10 000 wagons - full of lore delivered in a quite spectacular method. On 3/20/2025 at 11:09 PM, thuganomics85 said: I get the appeal to avoid violence at all possible, but it's just wild that you can be shunned for defending your sisters from a bandit. That particular ancestor really got the raw end of the deal. Expand The Aiel are an extreme bunch in all their iterations - shunning a young man for saving his sister from her rapists, clawing your eyes out for finding out your ancestors were pacifists and oathbreakers. We got a different version of credits - I must admit that I did not pay too much attention this season. Did they change for every episode? Moraine and her knives were the only mild comic relief for what otherwise was a dead serious episode. Aviendha's time playing Maiden of the Spear is over - I loved Bair's mix of empathy and sternness, both actresses really sold that scene. Sevanna seems to shop hear headdresses at the same milliner as Lanfear. And Couladin has the worst timing - dude, don't interrupt Bain when she's about to talk about Rand's mother, who is apparently not Aiel! Also: hello channelling Wise One! Rhuidean looked great. Dissecting Rand's journey through his ancestors will take some time, I agree Josha Stradowski did a great job - as did hair and makeup. Well, mostly because I was not on board with last guy's haircut. The actress playing Lewin's mother was great, she certainly sold that woman's pain and despair. I also loved how Lewin's friends were reminiscent of Mat and Perrin - that was a nice karmic touch so to speak. I loved the juxtaposition of the Aiel 1.0 harvesting and singing and the futuristic orb hovering in the background of that rural scene - and the orb collapsing and releasing the not-Eye-of-Sauron was truly terrifying to watch and to listen to - as the sound effects certainly sold that something evil was about to come. Moraine was on a wild trip of her own. Someone on YT counted 16 scenarios - the last ones were all variations of Lanfear killing her. That can't be good. Great episode - not sure I would call it the best fantasy episode ever as some reviewers do but definitely up there in my top 10. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8612784
DoctorAtomic March 21 Share March 21 (edited) Give me all the Lan and Rand scenes. Moiraine needs to calm down for 5 seconds too. She's stewing because there's nothing for her to do. Although, I get why to a point. She literally has devoted her life to finding Rand. He could at least talk to her too. I kind of wish they talked it out more going through the rings together so there were in more solidarity. Or at least some detente. They seemed more at ease when they walked into the city. Funnier than Moiraine has so many weapons or Rand's reaction shot? I certainly get the Aiel being skeptical, as they should. Av needs take it down half a notch. It's getting tired and it's repetitive. Rand has a lot to process besides having cool tattoos. It was good to have him wait for Moiraine. Edited March 21 by DoctorAtomic 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8612840
Noneofyourbusiness March 21 Share March 21 On 3/20/2025 at 11:09 PM, thuganomics85 said: I've always been a sucker for the whole "characters reveals they have multiple hidden weapons" cliche, so I definitely got a kick out of all of the numerous knives and whatnot Moiraine kept pulling out of her dress before they went in for the test. Woman is prepared for everything! Also one where Egwene kills Rand?! Expand Like Dureena in Babylon 5: A Call to Arms when she comes through Customs. I got a kick out of that, too. I've gone over them a few times now, and there wasn't one where Egwene kills Rand. There was one where Moiraine is Amyrlin and kills Rand while Egwene, who is Keeper of the Chronicles, watches. On 3/21/2025 at 1:54 AM, DoctorAtomic said: Rand has a lot to process besides having cool tattoos. It was good to have him wait for Moiraine. Expand Yes, that felt very in-character for him. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8612910
Danny Franks March 21 Share March 21 This episode adapted my absolute favourite two chapters of the entire series, and I think it was almost perfect. The history of the Aiel is something I've always cared so much about, as they're my favourite culture in the series and they're underpinned by such a tragic journey from the people they used to be to the people they are. The crystal pillars of Rhuidean being the test for Aiel who want to be chiefs, is so good - are you strong enough to face your history? And I've always found a delicious irony in Rand, a wetlander, being the Car'a'carn, and it being so much easier for him to face that history than for any other Aiel. For him, he experiences the suffering and pain and witnesses the transformation, but for Muradin it's all that plus an existential crisis that simply can't be endured. The Aiel exist as they are because they were oathbreakers. They were supposed to follow the Way of the Leaf, they swore to. All that's left of that oath is their refusal to touch a sword. I thought Josha did an amazing job as all his different ancestors, from the stoic warrior to the hobbit-esque peaceful Aiel to Mierin's acquaintance who didn't even understand the possibility of violence. Distinctly different characters, with different outlooks and attitudes and voices. The two real standouts - Lewin saving his sister, and being told by his own mother to hide his face, the face of a killer. And Charn, who was so sweetly admiring of Mierin Sedai and witnessed the Dark One breaking the fabric of reality (incredible effects and sound design on that). I could gush over it for hours. Other stuff - I really liked the turnings of Moiraine's life, and all the different things she apparently could have tried to do - bonding Rand, gentling Rand, killing Rand, swearing fealty to Rand, boning Rand, boning Lanfear. And they all seemed to end the same way - with her death. So how does she find the path to success? This is the first time Ayoola Smart has convinced me as Aviendha. The desperate statement that she's a Maiden of the Spear and the little look of agonised resignation when Bair broke her spears, and then the disdain for Rand and his tattoos. Sevanna looks ridiculous, I love it. Couladin is a moody, moody boy. Not sure about the wisdom of the Shaido wearing black. It doesn't seem like it would camouflage them in the desert as well as the Taardad colours. I really liked Natasha O'Keeffe's performance as Mierin. You could see the differences between her and Lanfear, she looks genuinely lighter and happier, and considerate of other people, but then you see the hidden grief over losing Lews Therin. 5 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8613023
tennisgurl March 21 Share March 21 (edited) That was not just a lore dump, that as a lore avalanche. A positive cavalcade of information about Rand, Moiraine, and the history of the world. As a non book reader I admit that I needed to find some guides online to fully explain who everyone was, but overall I thought this was a great episode that explained a lot of important information in a pretty short amount of time without making it feel tedious. Moiraine and her many knives was hilarious, as was Rand's face as he watched her disarm. Seems smart, she apparently gets stabbed in just about every iteration of her life. Josha Stradowski has really improved as an actor since season one, although now I wonder if the stiffness he had when the show started was a character choice and not a lacking performance. He did a really good job at showing the differences in his many iterations through mostly all body language and facial expressions. I did not at all put together that the Aiel are an off shoot of the nomadic people that we met back in season one, although these ones seem to take their pacifism to a whole different level than those people, who at least tried to make it harder for the White Cloaks to hurt people, I feel like there is a big different between being violent and killing a rapist in self defense. It certainly gives a new reading to the scene where the Aiel found a caravan dead. Very interesting seeing the more futuristic pasts, including the steampunk looking carriages and the giant futuristic ball over the people taking care of the fields that exploded, a lot of rally striking images that hinted at what the world once was. It was bizarre to see Lanfear before she was Lanfear, you could tell she was a different person because of the lack of smokey eye. Moiraine goes through dozens of possible paths she could have taken, killing Rand, swearing fealty, gentling, screwing (which felt gross honestly) and in every one she gets killed, mostly by Lanfear, which is not great. It was a nice touch that Rand stayed and waited for her to finish, it seems like they got past something. Edited March 21 by tennisgurl 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8613137
Danny Franks March 21 Share March 21 (edited) On 3/21/2025 at 2:31 PM, tennisgurl said: I did not at all put together that the Aiel are an off shoot of the nomadic people that we met back in season one, although these ones seem to take their pacifism to a whole different level than those people, who at least tried to make it harder for the White Cloaks to hurt people, I feel like there is a big different between being violent and killing a rapist in self defense. It certainly gives a new reading to the scene where the Aiel found a caravan dead. Expand It's more that both the modern Aiel and the Tuatha'an are offshoots of the "true Aiel" who were entrusted with the tree saplings in the Age of Legends. Both broke their oaths to the Aes Sedai - the Tuatha'an by abandoning the caravan and the Aiel by abandoning the Way of the Leaf. I've always thought the Way of the Leaf is too extreme in its pacifism. Seeing your daughter or granddaughter kidnapped, probably to be raped, murdered or sold into slavery, and all you can summon is "we bury our dead and move on," feels practically sociopathic. On 3/21/2025 at 2:31 PM, tennisgurl said: It was bizarre to see Lanfear before she was Lanfear, you could tell she was a different person because of the lack of smokey eye. Moiraine goes through dozens of possible paths she could have taken, killing Rand, swearing fealty, gentling, screwing (which felt gross honestly) and in every one she gets killed, mostly by Lanfear, which is not great. It was a nice touch that Rand stayed and waited for her to finish, it seems like they got past something. Expand And all those deaths were by cutting Moiraine's throat. Even in alternate timelines where it probably didn't happen, Lanfear is petty and vindictive enough to kill Moiraine as Moiraine tried to kill her. Edited March 21 by Danny Franks 2 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8613169
DoctorAtomic March 21 Share March 21 On 3/21/2025 at 3:08 PM, Danny Franks said: It's more that both the modern Aiel and the Tuatha'an are offshoots of the "true Aiel" who were entrusted with the tree saplings in the Age of Legends. Expand I think they made a mistake in only naming the Aiel who received the ball and the tree as just 'Aiel' because as you said, calling them the 'true Aiel' name in the old tongue would have been clearer when there was that first split. Calling them all 'Aiel' at that point in the past isn't technically accurate. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8613316
MissLucas March 22 Share March 22 I think calling them 'Aiel' in Rand's oldest 'flashback' really brought the point home that they were the ancestors of the Aiel (and the Tinkers/Tuatha'an) even if it is strictly speaking an anachronism. Given the amount of lore they had to pack into this episode I understand that they used this shortcut. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8613655
DoctorAtomic March 22 Share March 22 Sort of. It's just not technically correct to call those post Breaking servants of the Aes Sedai just Aiel. Which is the best kind of correct. It implies the Lost Ones split off from the main Aiel line, when in fact the Olden Aiel bifurcated into the Lost Ones and the Aiel. Which is why both were called oathbreakers. The Old Tongue name itself contained the word Aiel in it, so using the two words to describe Olden Aiel doesn't seem to much of a lift to me. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8613893
Noneofyourbusiness March 22 Share March 22 On 3/21/2025 at 3:08 PM, Danny Franks said: And all those deaths were by cutting Moiraine's throat. Even in alternate timelines where it probably didn't happen, Lanfear is petty and vindictive enough to kill Moiraine as Moiraine tried to kill her. Expand Well, except the ones where Lanfear strangled her in bed, stabbed her through the chest with a sword in the desert, and strangled her in the desert. The Wise Ones said the visions were possible futures, so presumably anything Moiraine had done up to this point was still part of those timelines. On 3/22/2025 at 1:28 AM, DoctorAtomic said: Sort of. It's just not technically correct to call those post Breaking servants of the Aes Sedai just Aiel. Which is the best kind of correct. It implies the Lost Ones split off from the main Aiel line, when in fact the Olden Aiel bifurcated into the Lost Ones and the Aiel. Which is why both were called oathbreakers. The Old Tongue name itself contained the word Aiel in it, so using the two words to describe Olden Aiel doesn't seem to much of a lift to me. Expand In case any non-reader is wondering, the names in question are Da'shain Aiel for the originals and Jenn Aiel ("true Aiel") for those who kept going towards the Waste and kept the Way of the Leaf while being protected by the ones who took up the spear. The evil makeovers on the gang in the Darkest Timeline! Somehow I'm most struck by Rand's ear piercings even though they were less elaborate than Egwene and Nynaeve's bling. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8613929
Noneofyourbusiness March 22 Share March 22 Someone helpfully posted clear up-close pictures of all the Darkest Timeline looks on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/WoTshow/comments/1jgsk79/clear_and_upclose_photos_of_the_8s_outfits_from/#lightbox And the thread includes this anecdote: "The general vibe from Rafe [the showrunner] on the Dusty Wheel made it sound a lot like he went to Sharon [the costume designer] expecting to be told to fuck off [for wanting to make evil costumes for each of the main heroes to be used in only one brief scene], and she instead was like 'obviously, we have to do that' and proceeded to dial it up to 1000. Because she's a legend." 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8613965
MissLucas March 22 Share March 22 Well that's not surprising - everybody knows that villains have great fashion sense - so creating those get ups is a costume designer's dream come true! That said I'm not sure about Mat's mullet and Egwene's kneesock. But Nynaeve looks fantastic! Thanks for the link! Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8614253
Danny Franks March 22 Share March 22 I love that Elayne only looks slightly evil. But it remains true - being evil makes you hotter. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8614257
Noneofyourbusiness March 23 Share March 23 On 3/22/2025 at 11:43 PM, MissLucas said: Thanks for the link! Expand You're welcome! And apparently they were originally posted on Instagram ("Lanfear and the Dark Ones. Album not dropping soon."): https://www.instagram.com/p/DHeclejNmre/?hl=en&img_index=5 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8614332
shrewd.buddha March 23 Share March 23 (edited) One of the things I appreciated about this episode was that it narrowed the focus to only a few characters. There was a lot that happened - but without the jumping back and forth between five or six separate storylines. On the unpopular opinion side: How many Rites of Passage can you cram into a series?!? The Arches, the Rings, the Columns, etc., etc. "If you manage to survive this test of strength and fortitude .. you can prepare for the next 99 trials of strength and fortitude." Maybe this aspect of the show stands out more to non book readers. But it will be difficult not to eye-roll when the next trial by fire rolls around. Edited March 23 by shrewd.buddha grammar 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8614496
DoctorAtomic March 23 Share March 23 I agree with the narrative choice for the trials in one episode focus, but I don't think they set it up well to provide the context for why the city is there and why they all go through the trials. This is streaming, you could have gone 75 minutes or so on this one. I feel like what Rand saw could have packed a bigger punch. This isn't a really a spoiler, but it's about how the book is structured. I'm not giving away any plot that wasn't shown on screen, but it's about some set up - Reveal spoiler There was a looooooong time living and moving around in the Three Fold Land before they went through the Rings and Columns. You really got deep into the Aiel culture. So by the time they got there, it was a big climax. When they revealed that the Lost Ones and current Aiel bifurcated from the Dai'shan Aiel, it was a bombshell. I actually thought this episode was going to be the setup and the next one about everyone in the west, and the one after that, Columns and Rings. 1 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8614590
tennisgurl March 24 Share March 24 On 3/22/2025 at 3:33 AM, Noneofyourbusiness said: Someone helpfully posted clear up-close pictures of all the Darkest Timeline looks on Reddit: Expand I love that everyone looks like they just stepped out of the Mirror Universe from Star Trek, I'm surprised that Rand doesn't have an eye patch. I guess in the Darkest timeline everyone started reading Lanfear's fashion blog? Being evil really does make you hotter right? 1 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8615741
Tachi Rocinante Thursday at 12:18 PM Share Thursday at 12:18 PM Non-book reader here. That was a lot and I will need to research some details, but I enjoyed it. Random thoughts: I initially thought the three Leaf friends were our heroes for a minute. The futuristic past turned into Destiny (visuals) meets the Transformers (sounds) real quick. The costumes were amazing. The only makeup on Josha that looked bad was the Amish bearded wagon puller. Were we supposed to give a shit about Muradin? Was Lewin shunned because he killed the bandit or because he used a weapon? What if he had just shoved the guy and he fell and hit his head on a rock? 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8618427
DoctorAtomic Thursday at 12:30 PM Share Thursday at 12:30 PM The killing. It would have been the same outcome had he shoved the guy. The significance there was that he used the spear and that's basically the founding of the modern day Aiel. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8618431
Danny Franks Thursday at 09:55 PM Share Thursday at 09:55 PM On 3/27/2025 at 12:18 PM, Tachi Rocinante said: The only makeup on Josha that looked bad was the Amish bearded wagon puller. Expand The voice Josha did was pretty good, though. He sounded so old and weary. His performance in this episode really deserves award recognition. On 3/27/2025 at 12:18 PM, Tachi Rocinante said: Were we supposed to give a shit about Muradin? Expand I don't think so. Muradin was just there to show that some Aiel really cannot handle seeing their history. Obviously, he has different blood ancestors to Rand, to a point, but each Aiel will have an ancestor who broke his or her oath. And go back far enough, maybe all modern Aiel are descended from Charn. On 3/27/2025 at 12:18 PM, Tachi Rocinante said: Was Lewin shunned because he killed the bandit or because he used a weapon? What if he had just shoved the guy and he fell and hit his head on a rock? Expand He became a killer, it doesn't matter how. If it had been a clear accident, maybe there might have been a little leniency, but I'm not sure about that. Him immediately deciding to keep the spear but reiterating that a sword has no purpose but to kill was a shorthand way of showing that refusing to use swords is a remnant of the Way of the Leaf. 1 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8618867
Ottis Monday at 04:05 PM Share Monday at 04:05 PM On 3/21/2025 at 12:51 AM, MissLucas said: Well, the rumours were not wrong. That was several truckloads - or 10 000 wagons - full of lore delivered in a quite spectacular method. Expand On 3/21/2025 at 12:51 AM, MissLucas said: Great episode - not sure I would call it the best fantasy episode ever as some reviewers do but definitely up there in my top 10 Expand On 3/21/2025 at 2:31 PM, tennisgurl said: but overall I thought this was a great episode that explained a lot of important information in a pretty short amount of time without making it feel tedious. Expand I'm apparently in the minority, but I found this episode especially tedious. We saw either elements of the past (which by definition has already happened and contributed to creating the people we already know in the present), or lots of *possible* futures that have not yet happened. So all of that contributed to our story how, exactly? It wasn't like we had been scratching our heads over why Rand sometimes wants to choose peace and wondering where that came to. It didn't matter. It's who he is now. We already knew about his mom. Did seeing his dad add anything? The visual of the more advanced past was interesting. They might have led with that and then showed us snippets of what occurred and how it set civilization back, in ways good and bad. That at least could have brought us up to the present in a constructive way. Anyway, I had to try to watch this ep four times before I made it through. On 3/23/2025 at 2:17 PM, shrewd.buddha said: On the unpopular opinion side: How many Rites of Passage can you cram into a series?!? The Arches, the Rings, the Columns, etc., etc. "If you manage to survive this test of strength and fortitude .. you can prepare for the next 99 trials of strength and fortitude." Expand I read the books years ago, but this still stands out to me. I laughed out loud when they said they had to pass another test. I want a hot wings test. "Whoever shall eat the spiciest wing and yet continue telling us vaguely meaningful tales of the past, shall win!" So what was the meaning of the Aiel seeing Ran's dragon tattoos after the test? What did that symbolize to her? That would have been more useful than the Tale of the Leafs. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/152482-s03e04-the-road-to-the-spear/#findComment-8621926
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