Chit-Chat: The Feels

[JustHereForFood]

I would also bet that people don't actually want to live like in the 50's beyond the aesthetics. No cell phones, no internet, more limited opportunities to socialize beyond your bubble, etc.

[Palimelon]

Quote

Then they hit 30, have 3 kids and realize that they can't live like a '50s housewife because unless hubster is pulling in a big salary they are going to struggle just to get by let alone have any of the niceties of life.

The majority of people (friends and family) that I know aren't having more than 2 kids. And that's even with both parents working.

[tearknee]

29 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

I know I am already falling into a "kids these days" attitude and I'm only a millenial, but yes, I have seen a lot of discussions online where it seems like people don't have enough appreciation for the previous generations who ensured all of the rights they now have. I have noticed this for example in talks about LGBTQ+ representation on TV - it has changed so much in the last few decades that many people now look at some shows from like 20 years ago and instead of being happy how much it has changed since then, they throw so much hate at the older shows for not being up to today's standards - even though it would not have been possible back then apart from some small-budget independent movies. Mainstream movies and shows like Philadelphia or Will & Grace were groundbreaking for their time, but they now get picked apart for picking their battles so that some actual progress could be made over the time.

 

see the crit of 1982's "Love, Sidney".

If you don't fire the starter's pistol, you will never reach the finish line.

Showing no regard for people of the past's different circumstances, culture, knowledge, ethics and values and the obstacles, opposition, false starts and dead ends that they faced and went through -- you see a lot of that in our year.

5 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

I would also bet that people don't actually want to live like in the 50's beyond the aesthetics. No cell phones, no internet, more limited opportunities to socialize beyond your bubble, etc.

And if they moved "out east" or "out west"?

"What do you mean 'paper-only mail'"? "What do you mean about a 'long distance phone call charge' every time that i need to talk to him or her?".

[Bookish Jen]

I agree with what's been mentioned upward about this thread. I'm so glad it's here, and I hope it continues. This thread has truly been a healing balm during a very difficult time. And I'm glad we can talk about the election, politics, and social issues without ripping each other apart.

It's been nearly three weeks since the election, yet it seems like three years. I'm still so numb, hoping to wake up from the nightmare of the upcoming Trump presidency. And with his cabinet picks, I'm afraid our world will become a mix of Idiocracy, Mad Max, The Handmaid's Tale, and Dr. Strangelove. 

At this point, I try to stay positive. I still have my job, though I live in fear I might get laid off and I will have difficulty finding a new one. I worry about the prices of everyday items going up. Already, I'm figuring out ways to cut back. I probably won't go all out for Christmas, and any idea of indulging in a little fun or self-care will be put on the back burner. 

And on top of that, I got a whopper of a cold and was feeling really low for over a week. Yesterday, was the first day I went to the gym in quite a while. I just didn't have the energy to workout. And working out is like therapy for me. I truly need it.

Also, because I'm a glutton for punishment, I decided to get into the MAGA mind and checked out the book "Domestic Extremist: A Practical Guide to Winning the Culture War" by a woman named Peachy Keenan (yes, that's a pseudonym). Despite living what she considers an ideal enviable life (she's a SAHM of five, whose husband makes enough money to support them living in the LA area while she writes her right wing screeds), her book is just one grievance right another. And she takes endless snot-nosed mean girl swipes at feminists, the LGBTQ community, pant-suited girl bosses, single women, people with no children or small families, etc. I'm like, "Get off the cross, lady. We need the wood." Well, I can't wait to write a scathing review of her book for my blog.

[Browncoat]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

I have seen a lot of discussions online where it seems like people don't have enough appreciation for the previous generations who ensured all of the rights they now have.

I saw a piece (can't remember if it was a newspaper article or what) that included a photo of a woman in combat gear, who was quoted as saying she was not a feminist.  It was mind-boggling to me.

And all of us who want/need new jobs?  Better get them now.  Once all these federal government departments are slashed/eliminated, there are going to be a LOT of people looking for jobs.

[tearknee]

Chamberlain and Daladier were haunted by the First World War, then in the recent past. But in their over-haste not to repeat its terrible carnage, they forgot the lessons that were imparted.


"We" have the opposite excuse, if it is an excuse at all: it is so long since the Western countries have had to fight for anything, much less our own survival, that we are unable to take the threat seriously.


The 1860s and the 1930s have become ancient history; war and dictatorship have become something that happens to other people.

How this will play out cannot be foreseen. Authoritarians rarely keep faith among themselves (look at the twisting course of Nazi and Soviet relations in 1939 to 1941), and Trump is perfectly capable of selling out both domestic supporters and foreign allies. But the moment, if it ever existed, when the authoritarian trend could be forestalled by mostly peaceful means has passed.

The U.S.A. will one day come to its senses, just as Britain and France did after Munich. Resistance was ultimately successful and a better world – the world of democracy and prosperity that we now see unravelling before our eyes – was constructed on the ruins of the old. But the cost was not worth it.

This may seem over-wrought, and it could be that I am exaggerating the danger. I very much hope that I am proved wrong. But the critics of Munich faced the same response; my fear is that we shall live, as they did, to see millions of young people sent to their deaths and the cities and towns and countries that I love and care about reduced to mere ashes.

 

I will let the most formidable of those critics of Chamberlain and Daladier have the last word:

"[The people] should know the truth. They should know … that we have sustained a defeat without a war, the consequences of which will travel far with us along our road; they should know that we have passed an awful milestone in our history, when the whole equilibrium of Europe has been deranged, and that the terrible words have for the time being been pronounced against the Western democracies: “Thou art weighed in the balance and found wanting.”
And do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year …" -- Winston Churchill

[bluegirl147]

For me feminism is about choices.   So if a woman wants to be a SAHWM that is her choice.   However I really don't like when I see it being presented as this is the correct way to do things.  These influencers with their blogs and podcasts live a very different life than your average SAHWM. And how many of these women have husbands who are their managers?  So who exactly is the breadwinner in those families?

When I hear younger people criticize an older show or movie as not being "woke" enough I want to scream.   They have no idea how any representation of marginalized groups was considered a win.

[tearknee]

3 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

For me feminism is about choices.   So if a woman wants to be a SAHWM that is her choice.   However I really don't like when I see it being presented as this is the correct way to do things.  These influencers with their blogs and podcasts live a very different life than your average SAHWM. And how many of these women have husbands who are their managers?  So who exactly is the breadwinner in those families?

When I hear younger people criticize an older show or movie as not being "woke" enough I want to scream.   They have no idea how any representation of marginalized groups was considered a win.

And again, desperately flailing about and pointing to, say a couple that demanded to be allowed SSM in the early 1970 or to two boys/girls demanding the right to take their SS date to prom and act as if these could have been swifty been made the law and common societal norm such as it is today.

[Is Everyone Gone]

The crunchy granola moms are now often overlapped with the trad-wives. All against public school, daycare, vaccines ...

[peacheslatour]

4 minutes ago, tearknee said:

And again, desperately flailing about and pointing to, say a couple that demanded to be allowed SSM in the early 1970 or to two boys/girls demanding the right to take their SS date to prom and act as if these could have been swifty been made the law and common societal norm such as it is today.

[tearknee]

4 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

You know what i was trying to write though?

[Palimelon]

Quote

When I hear younger people criticize an older show or movie as not being "woke" enough I want to scream.   They have no idea how any representation of marginalized groups was considered a win.

What's also funny is people complaining about how woke certain franchises have become today while forgetting how those shows were always woke (see many current Star Trek fans).

[peacheslatour]

4 minutes ago, tearknee said:

You know what i was trying to write though?

Yes.

[Eri]

4 hours ago, PRgal said:

@Eri I’m not surprised that the gap in South Korea is much wider than western countries.  Confucianism and its expectations remain and guys likely feel they need to respect it more and enforce it (such as carrying on the family name.  Korea, like China, has a history of keeping kinship books, detailing everyone in the male line) as society as a whole becomes more open.  I’d like to see stats from similar cultures like China, Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong.  Taiwan seems more liberal (they have legal equal marriage).  
 

Edited because, well, they’re not carrying gin with the family name.  Okay, maybe some might have gin…

Interestingly enough, the Pew Research Center conducted a survey in 2023 in Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam. The data used in this analysis was part of a larger Pew Research Center project examining religion, spirituality and nonreligion in East Asia. And many people across the region believe that women and men make equally good political leaders.

Quote

"Of the five places surveyed, Japan reports the highest share of people who say that men and women generally make equally good leaders (86%) and the lowest share who say that men make better leaders (9%).

In South Korea, which has also made recent news for the gender gap in its legislature, eight-in-ten say that men and women make equally good political leaders.

Similarly, in Hong Kong, Taiwan and Vietnam, at least three-quarters or more say that women and men make equally good leaders."

Men tend to perceive male leadership as somewhat more favorable, though the difference isn't significant. The current and historic lack of female leadership in East Asia is shrinking, which I think contributes to the increasing activism for gender equality and representation in politics and government over there.

[tearknee]

13 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Yes.

I just meant that an isolated case or two 50 years ago wouldn't have overnight created the (comparative) tolerance and understanding and normalizing that we have in our year.

[Anela]

11 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Something dawned on me . . . how will we celebrate the holiday season? It just feels hollow right now . . . also ironic, what with the idea of Jesus being absolutely horrified at the stuff being done in his name. Republicans don't deserve Christmas.

Is there any reason to hope that the nation isn't going to be a raging garbage fire after January 20? I need a reason, and I don't have a backup country to fall back on.

My backup country (where I was actually born), has a head of lettuce, as their scaramucci clock. 

6 hours ago, Lisa418722 said:

I follow a Facebook page for my hometown and this week (1) someone asked for a dentist who refuses to use fluoride (2) a pediatrician who refuses to vaccinate children and (3) they want to force students to take a Bible/Christianaity course (but not any other religion or religious text).  

Then last Sunday at church (yes, I'm a liberal Christian who realizes there are other religions and religious texts out there), when we were taking communion the guy who was saying the prayer spoke for almost ten minutes about how "the blue hates the red" and then after a long pause he added, "and vice versa."  How does communion and Jesus relate in any way to the USA?   

A guy I know in Europe, said that his church leaders were MAGA, and they can’t even vote for trump. 

[Makai]

3 hours ago, tearknee said:

There was a big re-alignment in which party held which geographic areas in the Senate between Ike's second election and Trump's first

I’ve never seen the party switch represented like this. Most of the regions didn’t change ideologies, the parties did. I’ve read about it but I’ve never been able to fully wrap my brain around how it happened given the current state of politics. 

14 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

What's also funny is people complaining about how woke certain franchises have become today while forgetting how those shows were always woke (see many current Star Trek fans).

I’ve said many times that what was progressive on tv in the 1960’s is the ideal for racists and sexists right now. 

 

[peacheslatour]

20 minutes ago, Eri said:

Interestingly enough, the Pew Research Center conducted a survey in 2023 in Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam. The data used in this analysis was part of a larger Pew Research Center project examining religion, spirituality and nonreligion in East Asia. And many people across the region believe that women and men make equally good political leaders.

Men tend to perceive male leadership as somewhat more favorable, though the difference isn't significant. The current and historic lack of female leadership in East Asia is shrinking, which I think contributes to the increasing activism for gender equality and representation in politics and government over there.

No, I got that. We've been protesting since the early sixties and things are still not great. They've gotten better but now we are backsliding. Young people don't know how long and hard we've been fighting for equality when they dismiss older generations for "not getting it."

[Anela]

2 hours ago, Bookish Jen said:

I agree with what's been mentioned upward about this thread. I'm so glad it's here, and I hope it continues. This thread has truly been a healing balm during a very difficult time. And I'm glad we can talk about the election, politics, and social issues without ripping each other apart.

It's been nearly three weeks since the election, yet it seems like three years. I'm still so numb, hoping to wake up from the nightmare of the upcoming Trump presidency. And with his cabinet picks, I'm afraid our world will become a mix of Idiocracy, Mad Max, The Handmaid's Tale, and Dr. Strangelove. 

At this point, I try to stay positive. I still have my job, though I live in fear I might get laid off and I will have difficulty finding a new one. I worry about the prices of everyday items going up. Already, I'm figuring out ways to cut back. I probably won't go all out for Christmas, and any idea of indulging in a little fun or self-care will be put on the back burner. 

And on top of that, I got a whopper of a cold and was feeling really low for over a week. Yesterday, was the first day I went to the gym in quite a while. I just didn't have the energy to workout. And working out is like therapy for me. I truly need it.

Also, because I'm a glutton for punishment, I decided to get into the MAGA mind and checked out the book "Domestic Extremist: A Practical Guide to Winning the Culture War" by a woman named Peachy Keenan (yes, that's a pseudonym). Despite living what she considers an ideal enviable life (she's a SAHM of five, whose husband makes enough money to support them living in the LA area while she writes her right wing screeds), her book is just one grievance right another. And she takes endless snot-nosed mean girl swipes at feminists, the LGBTQ community, pant-suited girl bosses, single women, people with no children or small families, etc. I'm like, "Get off the cross, lady. We need the wood." Well, I can't wait to write a scathing review of her book for my blog.

I can’t remember the last time I really enjoyed the holidays, and it’s the same for my dad. I noped out of a store yesterday, because it was getting to me.  As soon as I walked in, I thought, “it looks like Santa threw up in here.” Something I got from George, on Grey’s Anatomy.  I used to love the holidays.  
 

but I’ve just remembered one thing from trump’s America, four years ago.  We were out looking for a tree, and passed an extremely long line of cars. It was for a food pantry.  Something that had been happening for months, under Trump.  Not Biden.  

Edited 9 hours ago by Anela

[Palimelon]

Quote

My backup country (where I was actually born), has a head of lettuce, as their scaramucci clock. 

The same one that outlasted Liz Truss?

[JustHereForFood]

1 hour ago, tearknee said:

Chamberlain and Daladier were haunted by the First World War, then in the recent past. But in their over-haste not to repeat its terrible carnage, they forgot the lessons that were imparted.


"We" have the opposite excuse, if it is an excuse at all: it is so long since the Western countries have had to fight for anything, much less our own survival, that we are unable to take the threat seriously.


The 1860s and the 1930s have become ancient history; war and dictatorship have become something that happens to other people.

How this will play out cannot be foreseen. Authoritarians rarely keep faith among themselves (look at the twisting course of Nazi and Soviet relations in 1939 to 1941), and Trump is perfectly capable of selling out both domestic supporters and foreign allies. But the moment, if it ever existed, when the authoritarian trend could be forestalled by mostly peaceful means has passed.

The U.S.A. will one day come to its senses, just as Britain and France did after Munich. Resistance was ultimately successful and a better world – the world of democracy and prosperity that we now see unravelling before our eyes – was constructed on the ruins of the old. But the cost was not worth it.

This may seem over-wrought, and it could be that I am exaggerating the danger. I very much hope that I am proved wrong. But the critics of Munich faced the same response; my fear is that we shall live, as they did, to see millions of young people sent to their deaths and the cities and towns and countries that I love and care about reduced to mere ashes.

 

I will let the most formidable of those critics of Chamberlain and Daladier have the last word:

"[The people] should know the truth. They should know … that we have sustained a defeat without a war, the consequences of which will travel far with us along our road; they should know that we have passed an awful milestone in our history, when the whole equilibrium of Europe has been deranged, and that the terrible words have for the time being been pronounced against the Western democracies: “Thou art weighed in the balance and found wanting.”
And do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year …" -- Winston Churchill

Also Churchill: "You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonour and you will have war."

And yet, here we are again with western leaders willing to throw Ukraine under the bus to appease Putin, same as their predecessors in the 1930's.

[Anela]

2 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

The same one that outlasted Liz Truss?

Yep. Old Blighty.  I don’t know if they’re still doing that, but it was a thing for a while.  

Edited 9 hours ago by Anela

[PRgal]

45 minutes ago, Eri said:

Interestingly enough, the Pew Research Center conducted a survey in 2023 in Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam. The data used in this analysis was part of a larger Pew Research Center project examining religion, spirituality and nonreligion in East Asia. And many people across the region believe that women and men make equally good political leaders.

Men tend to perceive male leadership as somewhat more favorable, though the difference isn't significant. The current and historic lack of female leadership in East Asia is shrinking, which I think contributes to the increasing activism for gender equality and representation in politics and government over there.

I don’t know about other parts of East Asia but upper middle class families in Hong Kong often have a lot of help (the PC term for them is ”helper,” which my mom uses here (Toronto) as well).  Usually in the form of temporary workers from the Philippines or Indonesia.  There’s a section of HK that is filled with helpers on Sundays (when they have a day off).  There generally live in and work six days a week for little pay).  

[JustHereForFood]

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

When I hear younger people criticize an older show or movie as not being "woke" enough I want to scream.   They have no idea how any representation of marginalized groups was considered a win.

I think about this scene often. It's a bit on the nose, but I think some of it is especially relevant these days (it's from 2017):

"The minute we forget what we went through to get here is the minute it could all be taken away."

[DXD526]

Attitudes have changed so much in my lifetime. And those of us born within 20 years after the end of WWII are not happy with the shift.

If you went to school in the 50s, 60s, or 70s, you learned about WWII every year. It was drilled into my head that Nazis were bad, we were taught that in history class year after year. It seems to have gotten lost along the way, with how the word is thrown around so casually now. Do they even still teach the lessons of WWII in schools anymore?

Becoming desensitized toward that word has gone a long way toward the coarsening of our society, IMO.

[Palimelon]

Quote

Do they even still teach the lessons of WWII in schools anymore?

Nope. That's why there are large segments of society that think WWII was about fighting socialism and not the Nazis/fascism.

Edited 8 hours ago by Palimelon

[tearknee]

Socialism can only be imposed by force as fascism is. Specifically, the expropriation of private land.

[bluegirl147]

3 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Nope. That's why there are large segments of society that think WWII was about fighting socialism and not the Nazis/fascism.

They also think the Holocaust wasn't real. That it was faked or made up.

[Anela]

11 minutes ago, DXD526 said:

Attitudes have changed so much in my lifetime. And those of us born within 20 years after the end of WWII are not happy with the shift.

If you went to school in the 50s, 60s, or 70s, you learned about WWII every year. It was drilled into my head that Nazis were bad, we were taught that in history class year after year. It seems to have gotten lost along the way, with how the word is thrown around so casually now. Do they even still teach the lessons of WWII in schools anymore?

Becoming desensitized toward that word has gone a long way toward the coarsening of our society, IMO.

We learned about it in the 80s. As little kids, before starting high school when we were eleven.  But that was in the London area.  We went as far back as the Bayeux tapestry, too.  They had us making our own sections of the tapestry, and then we went to France, for a school trip, and saw the real thing in Paris.  I think we also saw poppy fields. 

Edited 8 hours ago by Anela

[Palimelon]

Quote

Socialism can only be imposed by force as fascism is. Specifically, the expropriation of private land.

Not true at all.

[tearknee]

Lenin-Trotsky system?

 

Just now, Palimelon said:

Not true at all.

 

[PRgal]

5 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Nope. That's why there are large segments of society that think WWII was about fighting socialism and not the Nazis/fascism.

Especially people whose parents may have had their education disrupted due to war.  So their parents wouldn't have learned it either.  That said, I most certainly learned WWII (and WWI) history when I was in school (90s).  What we DIDN'T learn much of for WWII was the war in the Pacific.  We touched on it when we learned about Japanese internment, but that's it.  If we really want diversity, we shouldn't just focus on what happened in Canada and the US to people of certain ethnic groups, but what happened in their ancestral lands as well.  Asian histories (for example) should be treated like European histories.

[Anela]

5 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

They also think the Holocaust wasn't real. That it was faked or made up.

I saw a young woman quoted on social media, asking if anyone was still alive from the time of the holocaust, and could confirm that it happened.  

[Palimelon]

Quote

Lenin-Trotsky system?

Jesus system.

[PRgal]

Just now, Anela said:

I saw a young woman quoted on social media, asking if anyone was still alive from the time of the holocaust, and could confirm that it happened.  

She should listen to this.

[Ceindreadh]

6 minutes ago, tearknee said:

Socialism can only be imposed by force as fascism is. Specifically, the expropriation of private land.

 

That's communism, not socialism. 

Communism is where the government take everything and (allegedly) distribute it in accordance with people's needs.

Socialism is where the government takes a percentage and uses it for the benefit of everybody.  It's sort of like tithing, so I don't quite get why so many so called christians are against paying their share.

[Palimelon]

Finally, someone who gets it.

[Anela]

Re: the world wars, and learning about them.  I remembered this show airing, when I was ten, and we were learning about them in school. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088479/?ref_=nm_flmg_job_1_cdt_t_14 Paul Hogan was in it.  Blackadder also did a season, with the inevitable sad ending.  Blackadder Goes Forth.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgyB6lwE8E0

[Palimelon]

Quote

I saw a young woman quoted on social media, asking if anyone was still alive from the time of the holocaust, and could confirm that it happened.  

We really need a face palm emoji on here.

[tearknee]

There's no need to laugh at me. I have an ABI and autism and my brain is... not what it could be.

[Anela]

3 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

We really need a face palm emoji on here.

https://x.com/jewelisqween/status/1859424877314265206 this was the tweet.  

[Palimelon]

Then again, would it make a difference for some people? Look at Sandy Hook as a recent example.

[andromeda331]

I only learned about WWII in school. The only thing we learned about WWI was it lead to WWI. Zero information on why. My middle school did a six week study of the Holocaust in English, History and math classes. I don't remember what the math was about but English was books on the Holocaust, and history of course history of it. People, camps, Hitler, etc. We also wore bracelets that had the name of victims of the Holocaust. It wasn't until the end of the project that we learned whether the person lived or died. I wish schools did that. As well as for slavery. We barely learned about slavery. Mostly it existed then we had the Civil War and it was over. 

It got me hooked on WWII I've read so many biographes and history books on the battles, the victims, the invasions of the countries, the Pacific theater. Those at home. It really was such a huge thing that effected everyone. The levels of evil the Nazis unleashed on the world especially the Jews, gays, Roma, political enemies, disability, and so much more is really unbelievable.

It's weird to me that people don't know much about it. There were always anniversaries on TV, plus people were always proudly telling people that their father, or grandfather, uncle etc fought in the war.

[PRgal]

The Holocaust survivors who are still alive are in their 90s, so once they're gone, their stories will be gone.  We also don't have many WWII veterans who are still alive anymore.  At least in Canada, Remembrance Day services are still observed at school, either on 11/11 or another day close to it if school is closed.  I'm not sure how much of the history is actually taught these days since my son is only in Grade 1.  I DO know that he came home with a poppy sticker on 11/11.

[bluegirl147]

48 minutes ago, Anela said:

I saw a young woman quoted on social media, asking if anyone was still alive from the time of the holocaust, and could confirm that it happened.  

I would have asked her if she believes things happened in the Bible.  I mean we don't have anyone alive to confirm they happened.

[bluegirl147]

33 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Then again, would it make a difference for some people? Look at Sandy Hook as a recent example.

People believe and disbelieve things that confirm what they already believe. History can be interpreted in different ways. It's always been that way but to just flat out deny something happened is relatively knew.   People don't believe the moon landing happened.  They think slavery was just Africans coming here for better job opportunities. They think dead school children was faked to confiscate guns.  So there is no way they are going to believe Trump is going to do damage to this country.

Edited 7 hours ago by bluegirl147

[tearknee]

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

 

That's communism, not socialism. 

Communism is where the government take everything and (allegedly) distribute it in accordance with people's needs.

Socialism is where the government takes a percentage and uses it for the benefit of everybody.  It's sort of like tithing, so I don't quite get why so many so called christians are against paying their share.

France has Democratic socialism. It's how everyone is able to go to college and people have state sponsored health care. I would love to see that type of socialism here.

[bluegirl147]

6 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

France has Democratic socialism. It's how everyone is able to go to college and people have state sponsored health care. I would love to see that type of socialism here.

We have some elements of socialism here.  And they happen to be quite popular though conservatives are loathe to admit that.

[PRgal]

@Eri Regarding the Pew poll, I wonder what social class the people surveyed were in and what education/income level (this was why I brought up the helper situation).