Chit-Chat: The Feels

[Eri]

35 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

Nouveau riche and noblesse oblige are not the same thing.

Heh, yes I'm aware - I was just being facetious to lighten the mood.

Edited 20 hours ago by Eri

[peacheslatour]

7 minutes ago, tres bien said:

This disgusts me. First of all what the hell’s with Eric Adam’s? He’s an imbecile.

Secondly this killer is being romanticized like the gangsters of the 1930’s

People sent him thousands of dollars to use at the jail commissary while he was in PA. The money was transferred with him. So thirdly how stupid are people? His family was able to hire top notch defense attorneys. He’s not being represented by a Public Defender in which case he’d be totally screwed and might not have money to buy candy bars and ramen or make phone calls. But you people don’t care about them most of which are probably in jail for committing petty crimes.

I will just say this. I have a close family member that has been in jail several times for what amounted to doing things because of bad judgment. Was a defense attorney hired. Yeah a couple of times but in the one instance that she had a public defender it was an an enormous mess that cost her three months of her life when she had two month old 

I would not lionize him nor eulogize him but I really would be happy if his crime causes the entire healthcare for profit industry to take it down a notch. But then Mr. Trump and his master, Mr. Musk just took away healthcare from children with cancer. 

[tres bien]

1 minute ago, peacheslatour said:

I would not lionize him nor eulogize him but I really would be happy if his crime causes the entire healthcare for profit industry to take it down a notch. But then Mr. Trump and his master, Mr. Musk just took away healthcare from children with cancer. 

Yeah there’s that.  But ranted about that here already 

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, tres bien said:

Yeah there’s that.  But ranted about that here already 

It's worth another rant!

[Anela]

19 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Oh, you mean convicted rapist Brock Allen Turner?

That’s the one.  I think he was allowed to change his name, and is living in my State. 

7 minutes ago, tres bien said:

Yeah there’s that.  But ranted about that here already 

I’m not romanticizing him, either. I really want men who hurt women, to receive the same kind of treatment.  

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, Anela said:

That’s the one.  I think he was allowed to change his name, and is living in my State. 

He was going by his middle name last I heard, that's why I included it.

*twirls mustache archly*

[Dimity]

53 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

This is what bugs me when I hear over & over that it's the non-college educated who support Trump, et al. Please! I know too many people with advanced degrees who are Trumpers. For some reason, these magats, holding down very good jobs, are never mentioned

What I found funny back on The Day of Insurrection was how angry Trump was that the people being filmed looked about as trailer trash as you can get.  Stupid costumes being the least of it.  Trump knows he appeals to the mentally ill and the gullible but somehow he seemed surprised that they were the ones showing up - not the Ivy League boys in three piece suits.

53 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Dimity

[bluegirl147]

8 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I would not lionize him nor eulogize him but I really would be happy if his crime causes the entire healthcare for profit industry to take it down a notch. But then Mr. Trump and his master, Mr. Musk just took away healthcare from children with cancer. 

You know Republicans only care about kids before they are born.

2 minutes ago, Anela said:

That’s the one.  I think he was allowed to change his name, and is living in my State. 

I read the book his victim wrote.  The people that wrote letters for support for him who didn't want his life ruined sure as fuck didn't care her life took one hell of a hit.

@Dimity the Ivy League suits were off writing Project 2025.

[peacheslatour]

6 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

You know Republicans only care about kids before they are born.

I read the book his victim wrote.  The people that wrote letters for support for him who didn't want his life ruined sure as fuck didn't care her life took one hell of a hit.

@Dimity the Ivy League suits were off writing Project 2025.

I remember his father saying that he didn't want his son's life messed up for "20 minutes of action".

[Dimity]

I know there are people genuinely struggling this year.  But that said I keep seeing articles about how this Christmas is breaking travel records and the stores are packed.  This cartoon sums up my feelings about the way a lot of people are bitching about prices but they aren't really doing any belt tightening.

 

[tres bien]

Today Senator Tom Kaine called a unanimous consent vote on the Gabriella Miller Kids First Research Act 2.0 for pediatric research funding. It passed and President Biden will sign it.

Thank you to all senators that supported this

23 minutes ago, Anela said:

That’s the one.  I think he was allowed to change his name, and is living in my State. 

I’m not romanticizing him, either. I really want men who hurt women, to receive the same kind of treatment.  

To be clear I ranted a couple of days ago about the pediatric cancer research funding 

[peacheslatour]

5 minutes ago, tres bien said:

Today Senator Tom Kaine called a unanimous consent vote on the Gabriella Miller Kids First Research Act 2.0 for pediatric research funding. It passed and President Biden will sign it.

Thank you to all senators that supported this

To be clear I ranted a couple of days ago about the pediatric cancer research funding 

[Anela]

9 minutes ago, tres bien said:

Today Senator Tom Kaine called a unanimous consent vote on the Gabriella Miller Kids First Research Act 2.0 for pediatric research funding. It passed and President Biden will sign it.

Thank you to all senators that supported this

To be clear I ranted a couple of days ago about the pediatric cancer research funding 

I know, but I think you quoted the wrong person. :) 

I also follow a few people who have been in jail, and post about changing the system. I also have a cousin who was in jail, for drug convictions. 

[Lantern7]

4 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I just want someone to publicly and point-blank ask him if he has any shame. Same with Musk.

[bluegirl147]

6 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I just want someone to publicly and point-blank ask him if he has any shame. Same with Musk.

I'm sure Trump doesn't.   Wasn't his son Eric caught scamming money from a kids cancer charity?

[Bastet]

On 12/20/2024 at 7:04 PM, tearknee said:

My point was that - Hillary Clinton did call some Trump voters "deplorables", though the full context shows she was being more nuanced. But (nuance-shmuance) the word was used against her to great effect - and the result, as we know, was the disaster of Trump.

No one who recognized themselves in Hillary's description of the deplorable people Trump had garnered as a significant segment of his supporters -- "the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, you name it" bigots he had "lifted ... up, ... given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people, now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets offensive, hateful, mean-spirited rhetoric" -- was ever going to vote for her, no matter what she said.

No one whose chosen media categorized that speech - which contrasted those "irredeemable" folks with voters who felt let down by the government, left behind in general, who are not hateful but misled and thus empathetic and potentially capable of engagement with facts - as saying she called all Trump voters deplorable was ever going to vote for her no matter what she said.

That remark, no matter how ill-advised given our shit ass mainstream media's inevitable simplification, did not result in Trump.

If broad, insulting rhetoric - real or as inaccurately reported - resulted in a backlash against the generalizing candidate, Trump, of all people, never would have been elected by the Electoral College system to begin with, let alone given a second term by a slim majority of the popular vote.  It's not A Thing. 

But if it is, it only applies to Democrats, if they say something on the 2 level of a 1-10 scale, but not Republicans, who say something pegging the meter at 50.  Dems are not the ones needing to adjust their rhetoric, at least not shifting even more towards civility to those who don't deserve it, and certainly not more towards equating inclusivity with bigotry or stupidity.

[tearknee]

 I think deeper and longer-term forces at work. The most important of these is the decline of class-based voting, and its replacement by values-based voting. 

For well over a century, the UK and most European countries have had class-based political systems. There has been a party or parties representing, broadly, the upper and middle classes, and advocating the retention of the capitalist system, and there has been a party or parties representing, broadly, the working class, and advocating some variety of socialism or social democracy.

It's important to realize, however, that class is not the only axis around which democratic politics can be organized. In the US and Canada, political behavior correlates only weakly with class. White Southerners vote overwhelmingly Republican, regardless of class. New Yorkers vote overwhelmingly Democratic, regardless of class. Every seat in Toronto elects a Liberal MP, regardless of class. In most Asian democracies, voting has no correlation with class at all. People vote according to region, ethnicity, language, religion or caste - because these things are the focus of most people's loyalties, rather than economic class.

Over the past 20 to 30 years, we have seen a consistent drift away from class-based voting in many democracies, including the UK. Increasingly, affluent, urban, highly educated people vote for parties of the left, while poorer and less well-educated people vote for parties of the right. There is also a strong generational divide: since young people tend to be more affluent, better educated and more "values-motivated" than older people, there is a widening generational gap in voting behavior. 

This change has been slow and incremental in most countries most of the time, but sometimes an issue arises which precipitates rapid change. In Britain, it has obviously been Brexit.   Millions of working-class voters have abandoned Labour in the past two of three elections, because Brexit's appeal to English patriotism and anti-immigration sentiment has overwhelmed their previous sense of class solidarity. Simultaneously, in Scotland, the working-class voters of Glasgow and the "Red Clyde" have abandoned almost overnight a century of class loyalty and embraced Scottish nationalism.

One striking feature of the 2019 British election was the Tories' abrupt abandonment of Thatcherism. Johnson campaigned on a platform of higher government spending on state services, increases in pensions, state intervention to support failing industries, and a strict timetable for achieving carbon neutrality. This partly reflected Johnson's lack of core belief about anything except his destiny to be PM, but it was also a calculated and successful Tory strategy. These progressive-sounding policies were bait for working-class voters to come over to the dark side. 

Johnson recognized one of the fundamental new rules of this emerging political era – that it is easier for the right to move left on economics than it is for the left to move right on questions of identity and culture.  This is an important insight. Most Tories were happy to jettison 40 years of Thatcherite ideology in order to get back into power, because Tories are by nature cynics whose main concern is power. But the British Labour Party cannot act with the same cynicism. If it defies its supporters' key values, they will abandon it, and the party will split.

I fear that the logical consequence of these trends is that social democratic parties in the western democracies are doomed. Progressive politics will have to find new forms if it is to survive at all, let alone defeat the forces of reactionary nationalism and popularism which are now asserting themselves so strongly.

[bluegirl147]

Let's not forget voter suppression and gerrymandering also plays a big part in the outcome of our elections. And the people who stay home.  Yes some people who stay home do it because they are in a snit their most important issue isn't being addressed in a way they prefer but a lot stay home because they don't like the choices.  We need better candidates on both sides.  

[dani7141]

14 hours ago, Dimity said:

I know there are people genuinely struggling this year.  But that said I keep seeing articles about how this Christmas is breaking travel records and the stores are packed.  This cartoon sums up my feelings about the way a lot of people are bitching about prices but they aren't really doing any belt tightening.

 

I guess complaining about prices is the holiday tradition! Right up there with decorating the tree and baking cookies.

[Yeah No]

 

It's important to realize, however, that class is not the only axis around which democratic politics can be organized. In the US and Canada, political behavior correlates only weakly with class. White Southerners vote overwhelmingly Republican, regardless of class. New Yorkers vote overwhelmingly Democratic, regardless of class. Every seat in Toronto elects a Liberal MP, regardless of class. In most Asian democracies, voting has no correlation with class at all. People vote according to region, ethnicity, language, religion or caste - because these things are the focus of most people's loyalties, rather than economic class.

I think the current assumption that "working class" equals "lower middle class" in terms of income is outdated. My neighbor is a foreman with a construction company and one time volunteer fire chief and I remember Trump signs on his lawn in 2106 and 2020 (he didn't put them up this time but I'm sure he's still a supporter). And no way is he lower middle class in terms of income. I think a more accurate and more relevant to address the Trump phenomenon and voting tendency would be "blue collar" vs. "white collar", not anything drawn on income lines. And judging from the maps I've seen of the neighborhoods in NYC that overwhelmingly favored Trump, they are predominantly blue collar areas, but all of them are definitely NOT predominantly working class in terms of income. These are the people that own landscaping businesses, car repair shops, work in construction or with Con Ed., Metro. North, etc., etc. In other words, blue collar workers and business owners, many of whom make enough money to be considered middle and upper middle class. And I am quite sure that if you did a study on blue vs. white collar workers and who they voted for in NYC, the blue collar workers would comprise a higher percentage of those that voted for Trump than the white collar ones regardless of income/class. In many areas the majority of those blue collar workers (especially the white ones) would have voted for Trump.

[bluegirl147]

When it comes to blue collar people voting for Trump you have to consider race.  When the media talked about Trump's support among the working class they were referring to white voters without a college degree.   I don't remember the media ever having polls showing Trump's support with African Americans and Hispanics broken down into class/income.

[Dimity]

 

I think the current assumption that "working class" equals "lower middle class" in terms of income is outdated.

This is very true where I live.  I am deep in the rich heartland of a Conservative district, a Liberal or, heaven forbid, an NDP or Green, candidate will never be elected here.  However this is not a poor area.  As you note in your post this is an area where there are a lot of small business owners, the "pulled myself up by the bootstraps" type and a lot of them have the Musk mentality - there is no such thing as homelessness, just mentally ill or drugged out people who are scum of the earth.

[Dimity]

[nokat]

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

When it comes to blue collar people voting for Trump you have to consider race.  When the media talked about Trump's support among the working class they were referring to white voters without a college degree.   I don't remember the media ever having polls showing Trump's support with African Americans and Hispanics broken down into class/income.

Add church into that.

16 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I would not lionize him nor eulogize him but I really would be happy if his crime causes the entire healthcare for profit industry to take it down a notch. But then Mr. Trump and his master, Mr. Musk just took away healthcare from children with cancer. 

People just want justice.  So many lives were lost because of these men. Does what they do count as murder. I say it does.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, Dimity said:

This is very true where I live.  I am deep in the rich heartland of a Conservative district, a Liberal or, heaven forbid, an NDP or Green, candidate will never be elected here.  However this is not a poor area.  As you note in your post this is an area where there are a lot of small business owners, the "pulled myself up by the bootstraps" type and a lot of them have the Musk mentality - there is no such thing as homelessness, just mentally ill or drugged out people who are scum of the earth.

IWhat’s really funny though is that St. Paul’s, a riding (electoral district) here in Toronto, went Conservative in a recent by-election (special election to replace a representative after they resign) for a federal MP.  This isn’t all that of a blue collar district.  This is midtown Toronto, and includes the Forest Hill area (where Drake grew up,- very wealthy, university educated district), where my high school alma mater and the boys-only Upper Canada College are located.  

[peacheslatour]

Just now, PRgal said:

IWhat’s really funny though is that St. Paul’s, a riding (electoral district) here in Toronto, went Conservative in a recent by-election (special election to replace a representative after they resign) for a federal MP.  This isn’t all that of a blue collar district.  This is midtown Toronto, and includes the Forest Hill area (where Drake grew up,- very wealthy, university educated district), where my high school alma mater and the boys-only Upper Canada College are located.  

There is always the tax angle. "I don't want my tax dollars (loonies, I guess) going to help those people or they think conservatives will actually lower their taxes.

[nokat]

1 minute ago, peacheslatour said:

There is always the tax angle. "I don't want my tax dollars (loonies, I guess) going to help those people or they think conservatives will actually lower their taxes.

This has been very much what drives conservatives.  They hurt themselves before letting "them, the others" get anything. It doesn't matter if we all benefit.

[Quof]

2 hours ago, dani7141 said:

I guess complaining about prices is the holiday tradition!

Nothing says "Let's give thanks for all of our blessings" like getting up at the crack of stupid o'clock the next day to buy more stuff. 

[bluegirl147]

1 hour ago, nokat said:

This has been very much what drives conservatives.  They hurt themselves before letting "them, the others" get anything. It doesn't matter if we all benefit.

One of my best friends, a gay man, is fiscally conservative.  However because of the Republican party's insistence on having cruel and out of touch policies regarding social issues he has not nor will ever vote for any Republican. And also it's probably time to stop saying the Republican party is the party of fiscal conservativism since the deficit soars when they control the government.

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

There is always the tax angle. "I don't want my tax dollars (loonies, I guess) going to help those people or they think conservatives will actually lower their taxes.

And under the Orange Man, with all those tariffs, will make EVERYTHING more expensive.  It could lead to a recession way worse than ‘08.