S02.E05: Regent

[CeeBeeGee]

5 hours ago, KBrownie said:

But Rhaenyra’s sons never needed any legitimizing because they were never considered bastards legally in that world. They were Velaryons from birth and claimed by the Velaryon lord and his heir.

There's legal and then there's an agreed pretense. I personally don't care that they are Harwin's children because their claim goes through Rhaenyra, not through Harwin. No matter who fathered them, they were born in wedlock to her, the Princess and the claimant and the acknowledged heir.

[KBrownie]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

11 hours ago, KBrownie said:

 

I don't think it's just an excuse. Rhaenyra give weapons to her enemy's hand and they used it. If she had married some of her suitors and had children by him, she would have had no reason to move out and live in exile for years.

Even in this scenario she made grave mistakes. If she had sat at the council table, and formed alliances, King's guard would have hers to command after her father died and Otto couldn't crowned Aegon crowed as King. But chose exile,  family life and inaction and thus gave Alicent and Otto freedom to act.

Of course. Nothing is ever anyone else’s fault but Rhaenyra’s.  She forced Otto and Alicent to do what they did.  It was all her. Alicent and Otto were just innocents and justified. They never would have done anything if Rhaenyra hadn’t forced them to. If she had just done everything right, they wouldn’t have usurped her. They would have never come up with something, anything to take the throne. Nope. No way.

So, because apparently where Rhaenyra went wrong is that she didn’t live her life to make Alicent happy, if she would have married one of those other suitors, Alicent wouldn’t have drove her from her home? She wouldn’t have found some other reason to make Rhaenyra’s life so miserable that the felt had to leave? She just was a bitch to Rhaenyra and her kids because she didn’t marry the right suitor? Sure. I forgot. Alicent is the innocent martyr, who somehow thought her opinion on Rhaenyra should matter, who never did anything wrong. She had NO choice but to hide that the king had died and not tell Rhaenyra. She had no choice but to hold Rhaenys captive to try and get her to go along with the usurpation.  None at all.  It was Rhaenyra’s fault. Or Otto’s. Never her.
 

Actually, Rhaenyra DID sit on her father’s council. She was her father’s cupbearer, which was part of royal training, for years before that.  Seems like she went from cupbearer to council member right after, so she had been on the council for awhile before she left.  At least ten years. She DID try and make alliances and had sound advice on matters of the kingdom the one time the show bothered to show her at her father’s council. Maybe you missed that episode. You might have also missed where the mature, innocent and perfect Alicent rolled her eyes, muttered under her breath, and dismissed any and everything Rhaenyra had to contribute. Rhaenyra actually proposed an alliance with the King’s strong support that very episode, but petty bitch Alicent shot it down and then proceeded to deliberately and publicly humiliate Rhaenyra. And this was after she had already been a petty bitch by demanding to see Rhaenyra’s newborn after he had just been delivered. But I’m sure that was all Rhaenyra’s fault too because Alicent isn’t responsible for anything that she does. Ever. 
 

 

Edited July 19 by KBrownie

[Shermie]

I have a real issue with the casting of Aemond. The actor is great, to be sure, but his look is all wrong to be Alicent and Viserys’s child.

At least Aegon looks like he could be their son, same fuller face and wavy hair, same middling height and build. But Aemond is tall and skinny with bony features and straight hair. Plus, he always looks like he’s doing duck lips for a selfie. If anything, he looks like he could be Daemon’s son but not Alicent and Viserys’s. 

Adding that he’s supposed to be Aegon’s younger brother but looks way older.

Edited July 19 by Shermie

[CeeBeeGee]

16 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Adding that he’s supposed to be Aegon’s younger brother but looks way older.

This is definitely a problem for me. He looms over Aegon, and his face looks older, harder, more mature. They're all great actors but Aegon comes off as a child next to him. Maybe that's the point?

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, KBrownie said:

Of course. Nothing is ever anyone else’s fault but Rhaenyra’s.  She forced Otto and Alicent to do what they did.  It was all her. Alicent and Otto were just innocents and justified. They never would have done anything if Rhaenyra hadn’t forced them to. If she had just done everything right, they wouldn’t have usurped her. They would have never come up with something, anything to take the throne. Nope. No way.

So, because apparently where Rhaenyra went wrong is that she didn’t live her life to make Alicent happy, if she would have married one of those other suitors, Alicent wouldn’t have drove her from her home? She wouldn’t have found some other reason to make Rhaenyra’s life so miserable that the felt had to leave? She just was a bitch to Rhaenyra and her kids because she didn’t marry the right suitor? Sure. I forgot. Alicent is the innocent martyr, who somehow thought her opinion on Rhaenyra should matter, who never did anything wrong. She had NO choice but to hide that the king had died and not tell Rhaenyra. She had no choice but to hold Rhaenys captive to try and get her to go along with the usurpation.  None at all.  It was Rhaenyra’s fault. Or Otto’s. Never her.
 

Actually, Rhaenyra DID sit on her father’s council. She was her father’s cupbearer, which was part of royal training, for years before that.  Seems like she went from cupbearer to council member right after, so she had been on the council for awhile before she left.  At least ten years. She DID try and make alliances and had sound advice on matters of the kingdom the one time the show bothered to show her at her father’s council. Maybe you missed that episode. You might have also missed where the mature, innocent and perfect Alicent rolled her eyes, muttered under breath, and dismissed any and everything Rhaenyra had to contribute. Rhaenyra actually proposed an alliance with the King’s strong support that very episode, but petty bitch Alicent shot it down and then proceeded to deliberately and publicly humiliate Rhaenyra. And this was after she had already been a petty bitch by demanding to see Rhaenyra’s newborn after he had just been delivered. But I’m sure that was all Rhaenyra’s fault too because Alicent isn’t responsible for anything that she does. Ever. 
 

 

This is total misunderstanding what I wrote.

Rhaenyra gave weapons to Alicent and Otto's hands doesn't mean that she was responsible for their actions. No doubt Otto aimed usurp the crown from the start, but he wouldn't have succeeded without Rhaenyra's lack of judgment and foresight.

Otto is a scoundrel but he worked and schemed for years whereas Rhaenyra mostly just spent time in her private matters. I suppose the difference was caused that Rhaenyra had given all for free, so she supposed that just because her father named her an heir and the lords had made their oath, she had no need to do something to make sure that she indeed would become Queen. Power is never given, it must be taken and if one doesn't take it, somebody else will.

On the other hand, there is a saying that "the character is a fate", so maybe Rhaenyra just acted according to hers. But in that case it applies also others. Maybe the best explanation is escalation.

In S2 Rhaenyra IMO has shown development. She has admitted her mistakes: she wasn't taught to become the Queen (nor was Aregon taughht to be king). She has made mistakes (who wouldn't), but an ability not to act on the first impulse (like Daemon does) is a promising sign.

[baldryanr]

8 hours ago, Shermie said:

At least Aegon looks like he could be their son, same fuller face and wavy hair, same middling height and build. But Aemond is tall and skinny with bony features and straight hair. Plus, he always looks like he’s doing duck lips for a selfie. If anything, he looks like he could be Daemon’s son but not Alicent and Viserys’s. 

Adding that he’s supposed to be Aegon’s younger brother but looks way older.

Genetics in Westeros is wacky.  Unless Daeron's different, Alicent and Viserys had four children who look 100% Targ, while Rhaenyra and Harwin's three kids look 100% Strong. 

With all the Daemon = Aemond parallels, they definitely picked someone who looked like Matt Smith on purpose.

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think it's just an excuse. Rhaenyra give weapons to her enemy's hand and they used it. If she had married some of her suitors and had children by him, she would have had no reason to move out and live in exile for years.

Even in this scenario she made grave mistakes. If she had sat at the council table, and formed alliances, King's guard would have hers to command after her father died and Otto couldn't crowned Aegon crowed as King. But chose exile,  family life and inaction and thus gave Alicent and Otto freedom to act.

Exactly.  Rhaenyra thought all those nobles who swore oaths to support her as the heir would never betray her and relied on them and, in some cases, their heirs, to keep those oaths rather than staying in Kings Landing and working to build/strengthen alliances for the eventual day when her father died.  It doesn't seem like she even kept in touch with any of the great Houses after she left the capital or had anyone keeping their ears open on her behalf there.  It was a very foolish move to isolate herself at Dragonstone; she could've just sent her children there or off to ward with relatives like the Arryns if she felt they were in danger.  Of course, I put a lot of the blame on Viserys for not properly training Rhaenyra for the role while he was still competent, but she made some serious missteps in the years leading up to her father's death.

11 hours ago, Shermie said:

I have a real issue with the casting of Aemond. The actor is great, to be sure, but his look is all wrong to be Alicent and Viserys’s child.

At least Aegon looks like he could be their son, same fuller face and wavy hair, same middling height and build. But Aemond is tall and skinny with bony features and straight hair. Plus, he always looks like he’s doing duck lips for a selfie. If anything, he looks like he could be Daemon’s son but not Alicent and Viserys’s. 

Adding that he’s supposed to be Aegon’s younger brother but looks way older.

So all children look like their parents?  Not in my experience.  The fact that he looks more like Daemon just means they're from the same family.  And plenty of younger siblings look older than their elder siblings in real life.

[Affogato]

11 hours ago, Shermie said:

I have a real issue with the casting of Aemond. The actor is great, to be sure, but his look is all wrong to be Alicent and Viserys’s child.

At least Aegon looks like he could be their son, same fuller face and wavy hair, same middling height and build. But Aemond is tall and skinny with bony features and straight hair. Plus, he always looks like he’s doing duck lips for a selfie. If anything, he looks like he could be Daemon’s son but not Alicent and Viserys’s. 

Adding that he’s supposed to be Aegon’s younger brother but looks way older.

The resemblance to Matt Smith does make ot possible he could be viserys’ child. He does look older. 

[proserpina65]

10 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

This is definitely a problem for me. He looms over Aegon, and his face looks older, harder, more mature. They're all great actors but Aegon comes off as a child next to him. Maybe that's the point?

Given that Ewan Mitchell in real life does not look older than Tom Glynn Carney, I suspect it was at least partly a deliberate choice when designing the make-up he wears for the role.

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The resemblance to Matt Smith does make ot possible he could be viserys’ child. He does look older. 

Yep, it's not unheard of for people to bear resemblances to relatives other than their own parents.

[paigow]

35 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Yep, it's not unheard of for people to bear resemblances to relatives other than their own parents.

Happens more often when relatives marry each other...😃

[Roseanna]

48 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Exactly.  Rhaenyra thought all those nobles who swore oaths to support her as the heir would never betray her and relied on them and, in some cases, their heirs, to keep those oaths rather than staying in Kings Landing and working to build/strengthen alliances for the eventual day when her father died.  It doesn't seem like she even kept in touch with any of the great Houses after she left the capital or had anyone keeping their ears open on her behalf there.  It was a very foolish move to isolate herself at Dragonstone; she could've just sent her children there or off to ward with relatives like the Arryns if she felt they were in danger.  Of course, I put a lot of the blame on Viserys for not properly training Rhaenyra for the role while he was still competent, but she made some serious missteps in the years leading up to her father's death.

Yes, it's mostly Viserys' fault. 

After rewatchin S1 I must admit that Rhaenyra tried at first. She gave her opinion in the council but was put off and, againts the will ogf her father she flew with her dragon and saved the day. She changed when Viserys announced that he would marry Alicent.

But she was told over and over that the country would never accept a woman as a ruler, first by Rhaenys. She resented that she was treated only "as a girl" but as if surrendered.

She had no perseverance at least to try to a weave a web of alliances. But neither did Daemon although they were married for years. 

[Ambrosefolly]

12 hours ago, Shermie said:

I have a real issue with the casting of Aemond. The actor is great, to be sure, but his look is all wrong to be Alicent and Viserys’s child.

At least Aegon looks like he could be their son, same fuller face and wavy hair, same middling height and build. But Aemond is tall and skinny with bony features and straight hair. Plus, he always looks like he’s doing duck lips for a selfie. If anything, he looks like he could be Daemon’s son but not Alicent and Viserys’s. 

Adding that he’s supposed to be Aegon’s younger brother but looks way older.

When it comes to physical resemblance, I'm of the opposite opinion when it comes to Aemond. I couldn't put my finger on it for the longest time why I find Ewan looking so boyish off-screen when a lot of his facial features should make him look older: his long face, thin lips and long and blunt nose. Then it hit me: he has fairly wide set eyes, just like Olivia Cooke. So Aemond's face has a lot of the coloring and angularity of King Viserys and Prince Daemon, but his eye placement is just like Alicent, while Aegon has Alicent's features with Viserys' coloring. Aemond's eye patch diminishes his resemblance to Alicent. 

[AntFTW]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, it's mostly Viserys' fault. 

After rewatchin S1 I must admit that Rhaenyra tried at first. She gave her opinion in the council but was put off and, againts the will ogf her father she flew with her dragon and saved the day. She changed when Viserys announced that he would marry Alicent.

I think in fairness to Viserys, Rhaenyra was a new heir. She was there to observe and learn, and nothing else.

She was there to learn the ropes of governing from people who were experienced at it, and not throw herself into conflicts where she could be harmed.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I think in fairness to Viserys, Rhaenyra was a new heir. She was there to observe and learn, and nothing else.

She was there to learn the ropes of governing from people who were experienced at it, and not throw herself into conflicts where she could be harmed.

That was bad leadership today and it was also such before. Rhaenyra's suggestion wasn't opposed by valid arguments, but she was ordered to leave the room. How could the members of council begin to take her earnestly when even her father didn't do it? No wonder she became frustrated, began to spend time with other things and, when time came, hadn't learned anything. 

As for "she could be harmed" - irl teenage princes and kings led armies! If the opponent had no dragons, Rhaenyra was in no danger, but could win prestige and respect she badly needed. 

[AntFTW]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As for "she could be harmed" - irl teenage princes and kings led armies! If the opponent had no dragons, Rhaenyra was in no danger, but could win prestige and respect she badly needed. 

We're talking about a conflict that did involve someone with a dragon (Daemon), a much bigger dragon. Viserys would have to be confident that Daemon would not do something stupid that would cause Rhaenyra to get hurt. No one, other than Rhaenyra, was that confident in Daemon.

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That was bad leadership today and it was also such before. Rhaenyra's suggestion wasn't opposed by valid arguments, but she was ordered to leave the room.

But she wasn't supposed to suggest anything in the first place. She was just supposed to observe. She could have saved her comments when for her father when the council is not convened. Perhaps, Viserys would have brushed her off then in private as well and that may be a separate conversation about their relationship.

However, when she's supposed to sit there and say nothing, I struggle to understand why would/should her suggestions be entertained when she wasn't there to give suggestions in the first place.

Edited July 20 by AntFTW

[baldryanr]

6 hours ago, AntFTW said:

We're talking about a conflict that did involve someone with a dragon (Daemon), a much bigger dragon. Viserys would have to be confident that Daemon would not do something stupid that would cause Rhaenyra to get hurt. No one, other than Rhaenyra, was that confident in Daemon.

Plus, as Viserys himself pointed out, at the time she was his only kid. If she died then who's heir?  Rhaenys?  Laenor? 

I suppose it's ironic that the one time Viserys didn't take the path of least resistance (i.e. name your son your heir) he was incapable of handling the fallout. 

Rhaenyra has a similar problem now.  She has to be terrified whenever Jace heads out - if he dies, her heir is a little kid who can easily be manipulated. 

 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Rhaenyra has a similar problem now.  She has to be terrified whenever Jace heads out - if he dies, her heir is a little kid who can easily be manipulated. 

No doubt she is terrified as a mother, but as a ruler she must do what is best. And it's not to spare his heir of danger. It's essential that he must prove himself worth his heritance. 

Daemon has many faults, but in S1 he proved to be a brave warrior and a able strategist. 

[paigow]

Next episode should be titled: How To Claim Your Dragon

[Roseanna]

I wonder if the explanation that Alicent lost even her former allies wasn't so much due to her being a woman but that they realized that Aegon wouldn't recover and even if he did, he was too weak for a king, so it was best to take Aemon's side in time. Especially Larys may have calculated thus.

In away it was natural to choose Aemond, the king's only brother and (as Aegon has no male heir) to the Regent. Nor does he lack abilities, although he is impulsive and vengeful. But the members of council could hardly be unaware that he lacks loyalty towards Aegon. The only one who has that unwavering loyalty is Alicent as the King's mother.   

Thus choosing Regent wasn't so much chosing Aemond over Alicent than choosing Aemond over Aegon.   

   

  

[paigow]

The show needs Christian Bale as a mercenary dragon hunter making Teams Green & Black outbid each other for his services in Pain Of Fire

[rlc]

Meh. While a huge miscalculation to drag a decapitated dragon's head through the city, it seemed more like a "look away from the crate- there is definitely not a nearly dead king in the crate" diversion.

[AntFTW]

I rewatched this epsisode, and I feel like Caraxes is Daemon's evil angel. When Daemon is confronting Otto in season 1, Caraxes just creeps up on the background like "fuck him up!"

In this episode when the Brackens meet with Daemon, in my mind Caraxes is saying "This guy's a prick. Even if he does kneel, we should fry him and eat his horses anyway. Just say the word!"