Boxing

[CM-BlueButterfly]

Boxing Jul 27 - Aug 4, Aug 6 - 10

[Daisy]

Italy's Angela Carini abandoned her match 46 seconds in against Algeria's Imane Khelif. She (Carini) screamed that this was injust, and that she never been hit like that by any of her peers before. Khelif failed gender tests but was still allowed to compete and Khelif is on to the round of 16.

Carni also said it's not up to her to say that this is illegal or anything but also added that she never was hit/felt pain like that before. 

[MaryMitch]

This story is building momentum. From what I have read, Khelif has identified as female since birth. She may have some unusual genetic and/or hormonal characteristics (the DNA testing is suspect) but I don't blame her for competing as her cis gender.

[shoregirl]

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/who-is-olympian-imane-khelif-an-algerian-woman-boxer-is-facing-anti-trans-backlash

4 minutes ago, MaryMitch said:

This story is building momentum. From what I have read, Khelif has identified as female since birth. She may have some unusual genetic and/or hormonal characteristics (the DNA testing is suspect) but I don't blame her for competing as her cis gender.

From the article it seems a little shady why she was banned last year with little to no way to fight the ban. Like she said she has identified as a female since birth. She competed in Tokyo and she doesn't seem to have a dominant record. 

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Daisy said:

Khelif failed gender tests

I think the NewsHour article linked above explains it better:

Quote

Khelif was disqualified from the 2023 world championships after failing unspecified and untransparent eligibility tests for women’s competition from the now-banned International Boxing Association.
...
Khelif reached the final of the 2023 world championships before she was abruptly disqualified by the IBA, which cited high levels of testosterone in her system. The circumstances of that disqualification have been considered highly unusual ever since it happened, and Khelif called it “a big conspiracy” at the time.

She had previously competed without issues and was disqualified by the sport’s governing body only after she defeated Russian boxer Azalia Amineva in the 2023 tournament. The IBA is controlled by Umar Kremlev, who is Russian and brought in the state-owned energy supplier Gazprom as its primary sponsor and moved much of the governing body’s operations to Russia.

This week, the IOC described it as “a sudden and arbitrary decision by the IBA” in which Khelif and Lin Yu-ting of Taiwan “were suddenly disqualified without any due process.” Lin was suspended for failing to meet unspecified eligibility requirements in a biochemical test.

The reasons for the two disqualifications are extremely murky, as is almost always the case with the IBA. The governing body has revealed little about the nature of the tests, including what was tested and who tested it. This lack of transparency would be unacceptable in major Olympic sports, and the IBA has been banned from the Olympics since 2019.

The IOC noted Thursday that the boxing association’s own documents say the decision was made unilaterally by the IBA’s secretary general. Those documents also say the IBA went on to resolve at a meeting that it should “establish a clear procedure on gender testing” after it had already disqualified the two fighters.

Carini's reaction does not seem to be universal:

Quote

Khelif is a formidable athlete with respected fighting skills, contending in top international events — including major amateur boxing tournaments over the past six years, such as the Tokyo Olympics. She’s won a few regional gold medals.

But Khelif was decidedly not known as a dominant champion, an overpowering physical specimen or even a particularly hard puncher at her weight — not until this week in Paris.

Khelif defeated Carini in just 46 seconds Thursday, with the Italian boxer’s tearful abandonment of the fight leading to innumerable portrayals of Khelif as an unstoppable punching machine whose presence threatens the health of her opponents.

The reality, to those who actually watch or participate in Olympic-style boxing, is quite different.
...
Khelif eventually caught the attention of Algeria’s national team, making her major tournament debut in 2018 with a first-round loss at the AIBA — now the International Boxing Association — world championships. She lost five of her first six elite-level bouts, but improved and excelled.

Khelif was one of Algeria’s first three Olympic women’s boxers sent to Tokyo three years ago. She won her opening bout but lost her second to eventual gold medalist Kellie Harrington of Ireland.

She also raised her profile by doing well in the next two world championships, and she even became a UNICEF national ambassador early this year.
...
Carini’s unusual actions aside, it’s highly unlikely anyone else in the women’s 66-kilogram division thinks Khelif is unfightable.

“I’m not scared,” her next opponent, Anna Luca Hamori of Hungary, said Thursday. They will face off Saturday. “I don’t care about the story or social media.”

Khelif is a medal contender in a sport where the Olympic draw can often determine the semifinal field by randomly pitting top fighters against each other too early in the competition.

But Khelif isn’t yet considered to be at the level of defending Olympic champion Busenaz Surmeneli of Turkey or 2023 world champion Yang Liu of China, the top two seeds in Paris.

Opinions about Khelif’s presence in Paris have ranged widely, often directly correlated with awareness of the news cycle raging outside the athletes’ village.

Marissa Williamson Pohlman of Australia lost to Khelif in the Netherlands last May, and she said Khelif was particularly strong.

“I did notice it, but you just keep fighting, though, don’t you?” Williamson Pohlman said. “It’s just a part of the sport. All you want to do is win, so you just keep chucking punches.”

Khelif also received support from peers like Amy Broadhurst, the accomplished Irish amateur who beat Khelif in the 2022 IBA world championships.

“Personally I don’t think she has done anything to ‘cheat,'” Broadhurst wrote on social media. “I (think) it’s the way she was born & that’s out of her control. The fact that she has been (beaten) by 9 females before says it all.”

 

[Daisy]

6 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I think the NewsHour article linked above explains it better:

 

thanks :)

CBC didn't really go into depth on it just what i was sharing. so this is a spicy cookie for sure. 

[shoregirl]

For what it's worth the Italian boxer has apologized for her reaction

The discourse on this from the usual suspects (musk ,jk Rowling etc) has been super gross. They heard one thing then without any confirmation just ran with the narrative. 

 

[kittykat]

I've read a little about this and unfortunately it has brought out the ABSOLUTE WORST in all the usual suspects.  Bottom line is she was born and identified as a woman.

Her opponent was understandably upset over the loss but has now shown her support for her.  As others have said she's not even a dominant figure in the sport but the right wing pundits are already having a field day with this and it's just sad to witness.

[WhitneyWhit]

This whole thing reminds me of the disgusting and humiliating way they treated Caster Semenya after 2012. 
 

I wish these people had this much rage for the child rapist competing at these games as they do for a woman with a genetic disorder. 

Edited August 2 by WhitneyWhit

[Notabug]

For those not aware, this is not the first time an athlete with a genetic situation involving  the sex chromosomes has competed.  Stella Walsh, designated female at birth, competed and won gold in the women's 100 m in the 1930's.  Her family emigrated from Poland when she was a baby, but she didn't get citizenship in time to compete for the US and instead competed for Poland.

Apparently, there were people from her neighborhood/family friends who were aware that her genitals were not quite 'normal', but it was not widely discussed and she was raised as a female from birth.  It was only after she died that an autopsy was performed and she was found to have male organs but not female.  Chromosomally, she had mosaicism which means some of her cells were XX (female) and some XY (male).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisława_Walasiewicz

[greycoupon]

Imane Khelif is not trans.  She is not intersex.  She is not a man.  Super weird how often these accusations are thrown at athletes who aren't white.  I just can't imagine why that is.

Quote

The Hungarian Boxing Association says it is sending letters of protest to both the IOC and Hungary’s Olympic committee over Anna Luca Hamori’s quarterfinal matchup with Imane Khelif of Algeria in women’s boxing at the Paris Olympics.

According to the Olympics schedule, the fight is planned for 10:22 a.m. CT on Aug. 3. inside the North Paris Arena.

Hamori still will accept her fight on Saturday against Khelif, according to MTI, Hungary’s state news agency.

MTI was told of the association’s plans Friday by Lajos Berkó, a member of the association’s executive board. The association also is investigating the possibility of legally challenging Khelif’s presence.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/paris-2024-summer-olympics/will-algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-compete-again-at-olympics-after-gender-test-controversy-where-things-stand/3510061/

Hamori still plans to fight but also posted a graphic on her instagram comparing Imane to a giant devil.  Doesn't the Olympics have rules about this kind of thing?

And again, Imane was at the Tokyo games and didn't medal.  I haven't been into women's boxing since I was teenage but I am fully invested now.

[Notabug]

10 minutes ago, greycoupon said:

Imane Khelif is not trans.  She is not intersex.  She is not a man.  Super weird how often these accusations are thrown at athletes who aren't white.  I just can't imagine why that is.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/paris-2024-summer-olympics/will-algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-compete-again-at-olympics-after-gender-test-controversy-where-things-stand/3510061/

Hamori still plans to fight but also posted a graphic on her instagram comparing Imane to a giant devil.  Doesn't the Olympics have rules about this kind of thing?

And again, Imane was at the Tokyo games and didn't medal.  I haven't been into women's boxing since I was teenage but I am fully invested now.

What is particularly strange is that Khelif is not new to the sport.  She has competed in boxing events at several levels over the past decade and her record, while pretty good, is not outstanding and she has absolutely no history of causing devastating injury to her opponents.  So, all the talk about her killing an opponent in the ring is completely absurd, especially considering we're discussing boxing where hurting one's opponent is the goal and where plenty of boxers have died in the ring after fighting a same sex opponent.  

It's also important to note that the supposedly abnormal genetic testing was done when she was boxing at an IBC match.  The IBC has a long, long history of corruption and dirty dealings, the Russian mob has been involved.  So, any report that testing done by them was not normal is suspect considering the source.  The IBC has repeatedly refused to release the test results or even confirm which test was done.  Reportedly, her level of testosterone was elevated above usual female levels.  However, there are plenty of women with polycystic ovaries, adrenal gland problems or even tumors who have elevated testosterone levels.  It does not mean she has a genetic abnormality nor is there any evidence that a woman with an elevated testosterone level is at any athletic advantage over other women.

[greycoupon]

Congrats Imane Khelif on just winning her round!  I'm sure the mad people will stay mad.  Speaking of.

Quote

 The president of the boxing organization that disqualified two female Olympic fighters from a tournament last year added to the controversy overnight, saying he will pay prize money to the boxers who lost their opening-round bouts to the fighters at the Paris Games.

Umar Kremlev, the Russian sports power broker who runs the International Boxing Association, said in a statement that Angela Carini, the Italian boxer who quit 46 seconds into her round-of-16 fight with Algeria’s Imane Khelif, will get “IBA prize money as if she were an Olympic champion.”

snipped

Quote

“These people have no credibility,” IOC spokesman Mark Adams told reporters Saturday. “Maybe in their own minds [they do], but they have no credibility for anyone else.”

 

The Algerian Olympic Committee also filed a complaint over Khelif’s opponent today, Hungarian Anna Luca Hamori, sharing a post showing an image of a female boxer facing off against a muscled monster with horns.  The IOC issued a warning in response.  Hamori shook hands at the end of the match today and seemed a good sport.  Lets see if she keeps that up given Hungary had already filed a protest over Khelif.

Source: https://wapo.st/46BldYa

[MaryMitch]

If anyone wants to see the bout where the Italian boxer Carini abandoned the fight, it's currently on Peacock in the boxing section, labeled "W Fly Welter (R16) & More" at about 1 hr 29 minutes in.

I didn't watch the entire program because I don't particularly like to watch boxing, so I don't know if they went into why Carini quit.

 

[galaxygirl76]

On 8/2/2024 at 12:24 PM, shoregirl said:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/who-is-olympian-imane-khelif-an-algerian-woman-boxer-is-facing-anti-trans-backlash

From the article it seems a little shady why she was banned last year with little to no way to fight the ban. Like she said she has identified as a female since birth. She competed in Tokyo and she doesn't seem to have a dominant record. 

She had the audacity to beat a Russian boxer, next day she was DQ'd. Super shady. 

 

Let's be real here, Algeria is not going to send a trans athlete. The way she has been treated is disgusting and hurtful, people suck. 

Edited August 4 by galaxygirl76

[greyhorse]

I'm going to guess this woman has the same condition that the actress Jamie Lee Curtis has.  Testicular feminization.  Genetically she is XY.  But there was an abnormality and during development as a fetus, male organs did not develop so the baby ends up appearing female.

She doesn't seem to be trans.  Unlike the swimmer from U Penn that set records by beating other women born as females.

[Quof]

3 hours ago, greyhorse said:

I'm going to guess this woman has the same condition that the actress Jamie Lee Curtis has.  Testicular feminization. 

This is categorically untrue.  https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/jamie-lee-curtis/

[greyhorse]

4 hours ago, Quof said:

This is categorically untrue.  https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/jamie-lee-curtis/

Androgen insensitivitiy (Testicular feminization) is completely different than intersex/hermaphrodite.  The first condition you are born XY but male organs didn't develop so you look female, you have a vagina, no uterus, and undescended testes.  The latter is where you are born XX (most often) but the cl1toris is enlarged so looks almost like a male organ.

I have no idea if JLC does have androgen insensitivity, but that's the rumor that I've always heard.

I wouldn't be surprised if these two boxers have it.  They were reportedly said to have failed chromosome testing.  Boxing should do like track and field.  Athletes that have disorders of sex development should be required to have their testosterone levels measured.  Caster Semenya, who was found to have this condition, refused to take medication to suppress her testosterone and then wasn't allowed to compete. (But not before winning a Gold medal in the 2016 Rio Olympics.)

 

[Quof]

18 minutes ago, greyhorse said:

I have no idea if JLC does have androgen insensitivity,

Then why did you state it as a fact? 

[satrunrose]

1 hour ago, greyhorse said:

Androgen insensitivitiy (Testicular feminization) is completely different than intersex/hermaphrodite.  The first condition you are born XY but male organs didn't develop so you look female, you have a vagina, no uterus, and undescended testes.  The latter is where you are born XX (most often) but the cl1toris is enlarged so looks almost like a male organ.

I have no idea if JLC does have androgen insensitivity, but that's the rumor that I've always heard.

I wouldn't be surprised if these two boxers have it.  They were reportedly said to have failed chromosome testing.  Boxing should do like track and field.  Athletes that have disorders of sex development should be required to have their testosterone levels measured.  Caster Semenya, who was found to have this condition, refused to take medication to suppress her testosterone and then wasn't allowed to compete. (But not before winning a Gold medal in the 2016 Rio Olympics.)

 

Couple of things: 

1- Generally intersex (I believe the second term is outdated except in very specific medical situations) is an umbrella term that covers disorders of sexual development so both AIS and conditions that result in ambiguous genitalia are often counted as intersex.

2- No-one outside of the International Boxing Association knows what tests were preformed or how. The association is sketchy as hell. There are good reasons to speculate that this woman was thrown to the internet wolves to boost a Russian boxer.

3- Assuming she (I'm using she on purpose because most folks with AIS do identify as female, as does Khelif) does have AIS (which I think remains speculation without much basis) the jury's out on what, if any advantage it gives her. Were she AIS, she would produce testosterone, but her body doesn't respond to it, or at least not the same way that it does in typical XY, XXY or XYY individuals. It wouldn't automatically make her a super athlete (and her past record indicates it hasn't) 

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, satrunrose said:

Couple of things: 

2- No-one outside of the International Boxing Association knows what tests were preformed or how. The association is sketchy as hell. There are good reasons to speculate that this woman was thrown to the internet wolves to boost a Russian boxer.

 

The vast majority of individuals with androgen insensitivity (testicular feminization) are completely unaware of the condition until they fail to menstruate at puberty.  That is because they have all of the physical traits of a woman including their external genitalia.  Their missing organs are internal and only discovered once they go to the doctor to find out why they're not menstruating and end up with an exam and finally, chromosomal testing.  There is also no evidence that persons with AIS have any particular athletic advantage over chromosomal females.  Their tissues are insensitive to androgens/testosterone after all.  I do not know anything about the health care system in Algeria or this particular boxer's personal medical history, but there are plenty of places in the world where this kind of care is not widely available and it is possible that she never knew specifically what was happening, even as a adult.  That is IF she has TIS, which we cannot be sure she does.

Jamie Lee Curtis has been very open about the fact that she has known since her teens that she could not have children biologically which is probably why the rumors started, but I don't believe she ever discussed her particular diagnosis.  People with AIS tend to be tall and thin and generally have narrow hips and fairly generous bosom which fits JLC too.

As for whatever happened with the IBC, it was shady as hell.  The Algerian boxer entered the competition and had progressed through several rounds.  It was only after she defeated a Russian, that an emergency 'genetic test' was done and the results reported less than 24 hours later.  It was not a scheduled test, it was not performed on any other competitors and the results were available far sooner than usual; in plenty of time to toss her out of the tournament.  The IBC is corrupt, has been for years, and is known to be linked to multiple Russian mobsters.  The IOC removed it from any oversight over the boxing because of the IBC's repeated failures to play by any rules.

 

Edited August 4 by Notabug

[greycoupon]

So the IBA held a press conference today that was supposed to provide proof for my they disqualified the two fights.  Well, it didn't go so well.

They kept the journalists waiting for an hour, but no worries, they had an open bar.  As you do.

Quote

Kremlev spoke about how he was standing up for women’s sports while IOC President Thomas Bach was trying to destroy them. He ranted about the Games’ Opening Ceremonies and how a scene resembling Leonardo da Vinci’s “The Last Supper” portrayed by drag queens had “humiliated him.” Finally, his voice rising until he was almost shouting, he said he was “going to open prosecution” of Bach without providing details of how this would be done.

Quite a bit to unpack there.  There were technical difficulties and screeching mikes.  Then the speakers in the room exploded.

Quote

The news conference stretched past an hour, with the men on the dais saying that they don’t test all boxers for testosterone irregularities and had only chosen four at the 2022 championships, including Khelif and Lin, and then only Khelif and Lin in 2023. They did not say the results of the 2022 tests or why those athletes were selected, other than vague references to complaints from opposing countries.

The speakers exploded again.  There was frustration and shouting.

Then fellow Algerian boxer Roumaysa Boualam showed up, wrapped in her country's flag, to show support for Imane. 

Quote

But no one was. Boualam stood up and held her Algerian flag high over her head.

“One, two, three, viva l’Algérie!” she shouted.

Then she started to walk out. Another woman from the Algerian team delegation walked with her.

“One, two, three, viva Imane,” they chanted, referring to Khelif.

https://wapo.st/3yrlpfP

[satrunrose]

So we still don't know what these tests were. I've heard both testosterone (having high testosterone doesn't make someone male) and chromosomal (which is more conclusive in some ways, but as we discussed with AIS, you can be an XY female without being trans). It's 17 kinds of gross and sketchy that it became a "we hate all things under the trans umbrella" rant instead of explaining what the medical basis for these accusations actually are. It fully confirms to be that this is just a load of transphobic bull. If this was legit, it would be easy to explain what they actually tested and what it showed.

In other news, good on Roumaysa Boualam and her fellow Algerian athlete.

Edited August 6 by satrunrose

[Glade]

Imane Khelif won the gold medal after beating Chinese boxer Yang Liu!  I'm so happy she stuck it to the haters who know nothing about boxing and just wanted to attack a woman athlete for not looking feminine enough and baselessly accuse her of being a transgender abuser for winning a match. 

Edited August 10 by Glade