Breeders Season 4 Discussion

[aghst]

 

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S04.E01:  Noël - Five years later, Paul and Ally are on the verge of splitting; Jim and Jackie are in turmoil; Luke and his girlfriend, Maya, drop a bombshell at Christmas dinner that will change everyone's lives forever.

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S04.E02: No Alternatives - The reality of Luke's announcement hits; Paul and Ally worry about the decision he and Maya made and whether they should support them; as a new year starts, the Worsley family gather together with Maya's family, united in their love and worry.

It's suppose to be 5 years since the end of Season 3.  Luke is 18 and Ally and Paul are talking about splitting up but say they will hold off for a few months since Ava had found her grandfather on the verge of dying.

Christmas time.  They show Paul and Ally in a previous Christmas but cuts to the present day, where Ally and Paul are having their talk about when they will let their kids and the grandparents know that they're splitting up.

In contrast to the bickering at the end of the previous season, they're amicable and getting along, very civil about how they'd divorce amicably, don't need lawyers, etc.

Apparently Jackie and Jim are back together, the revelation that Jim fancied another woman back in the day seems all forgotten now.  Leah, Ally's divorced mother, hates Christmas but came to the family get together.

Jackie and Jim let slip that Luke will announce at Christmas dinner that he is going to move in with the family of Maya, his girlfriend.  Ally and Paul both agree that they can't let him move out.  They plan to be agreeable about it, not get mad as Paul used to, when he used to curse out Luke all the time.  Their strategy is that they will emphasize how he has to get through his exams for getting into university.

At the dinner, Luke announces that Maya is pregnant, hence the reason he's moving in with her family.  Ally and Paul, minds blown, Paul broaches the idea that they should consider termination.  But Maya's parents know, so they can't be the ones to suggest it because they'll be hated for suggesting it.

Meanwhile Darren, Ally's boss, is getting back together with his ex-wife and Ally and Paul go to the re-marriage ceremony.  Paul admits after the ceremony that he had fancied Gabby, something which he denied at the time.  So they seem to be off the whole splitting up and then amicable divorce track, at least for now.

They go to some scan to check on the baby and Ally and Paul meet Maya's parents for the first time.  They learn that her father Sunil is also freaked out about Luke and Maya having a baby at their age, possibly sidetracking all the plans they had for university and a different life trajectory.

Ava had worried about being overshadowed, not only by Luke but now his baby as well.  But she gets to go into the scan room and now says she will be a good auntie.

She asks Ally and Paul if they've come to terms with Luke being a dad.

Paul says "fuck no" and Ally says "never!"

 

 

[possibilities]

The same thing happened with my ex and me: we started getting along better once we decided to split. But we did actually split. It's possible to be incompatible but still like the other person, and the relief of not  having to be married to them brings back all the reasons you do actually like them and what you will miss about the relationship. She and I actually did stay friends.

I am not so sure Luke and Maya want to have the baby. I think they may be each "being strong" for the other. Someone needs to get them in separate rooms and find out for sure.

I thought Ava found her grandfather near death 5 years ago. Putting off the divorce for that reason struck me as an excuse, not a reason.

[aghst]

She's 12 weeks pregnant and they've seen the scan.  Don't know the gender of the baby yet but soon they will.  Looks like Maya never considered not having the baby.

They briefly talked about their university plans.  Both will try to stay around London, to be near family and friends.  But apparently Luke applied to a music-oriented school in Manchester but says he's a long shot to get in.

That's when the rubber will hit the ground, if and when they're faced with academic and life options that they would have to forego to raise a child and give up a big part of their youth.

Not to mention the dreams or conception that the parents had of the lives their children would have -- most certainly didn't include parenthood at such a tender age.

 

It's too early to see how well the new actors playing Luke and Ava will fare.  I guess the plan all along was to show this family as the children grew up, though the parents go through progression of their own.

I didn't see the Richard Linklater movie Boyhood, which apparently focused on the child who grew up over a course of 12 years during which the movie was shot.

It's odd, the adult cast seem pretty much the same but the child characters have obviously changed a lot.  But season 3, they really showed the series was about the adult characters as much as the children.

Will Paul lapse and start cursing at Luke again?  Are they more secure in their careers that they can now focus more on the children in this last season?

 

[heatherchandler]

So Paul and Aly are not getting divorced?

[SoMuchTV]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

It's suppose to be 5 years since the end of Season 3.  Luke is 18 and Ally and Paul are talking about splitting up but say they will hold off for a few months since Ava had found her grandfather on the verge of dying.

 

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I thought Ava found her grandfather near death 5 years ago. Putting off the divorce for that reason struck me as an excuse, not a reason.

That confused me too.  Ava finding grandpa happened last season (so five years ago), right?  I thought maybe I misremembered or misunderstood what they were saying.

[aghst]

I turned on the CC.  Ally said something like it looked dire but now he's okay but said it in some British slang.  Even looking at the worlds I didn't quite get it but just the gist of it, that his health is no longer in question.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

They briefly talked about their university plans.  Both will try to stay around London, to be near family and friends.  But apparently Luke applied to a music-oriented school in Manchester but says he's a long shot to get in.

That's when the rubber will hit the ground, if and when they're faced with academic and life options that they would have to forego to raise a child and give up a big part of their youth

Yeah, Luke's definitely getting in.

I understand that finding out that your 18 year-old son is planning to move in with his girlfriend's family at 18 (even before Allie knew of the pregnancy) was a shocker, but she kept saying she wasn't ready to let Luke "go".  I assume that many kids in England go away to university at 18 once they've finished their final year of secondary school, which must be in just a few months for Luke. Did she assume he'd study music, or whatever, from his downstairs bedroom for the next few years instead of moving out and perhaps sharing a place with a friend, finances permitting? 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

the adult cast seem pretty much the same

Paul's mother's hairstyle changed.  It used to be short and layered, and now her hair is bobbed. That's the only way I could tell they were in the 5-years-ahead timeline if the kids weren't present and no one was talking about the kids.

3 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

So Paul and Aly are not getting divorced?

1 hour ago, SoMuchTV said:

That confused me too.  Ava finding grandpa happened last season (so five years ago), right?  I thought maybe I misremembered or misunderstood what they were saying.

Nope.  They considered it 5 years ago, but were waiting until Ava seemed stable (after her grandfather's hospitalization.)  Then they agreed that Ava was fine, but decided to stay together after all.

Now, 5 years later, the kids are obviously older and Luke and Maya are having a baby.  The only other person who knows they were planning a divorce 5 years ago is Darren, because Ally told him (5 years ago) directly after he said he was getting back with his ex.  I wonder if there will be a flashback seen where he lets that info slips, or where Ally tells him the divorce is off.

[Corgi-ears]

I enjoyed how every episode of the series has been titled "No ____" but the Season 4 opener, set at Christmas, seemingly bucked the trend...until you realize it doesn't. Maybe they should have made the joke more obvious by titling the episode "No L," but maybe that would cross into dad joke territory.

[aghst]

Ally's turning 50, not taking it well.  Death stare at Luke for telling people at the fish and chips place that it was her 50th birthday.

Then she abruptly quits a job when she finds out she was hired because they'd been accused of ageism.

Jim also has a birthday, turning 80 and doesn't want to put on his last pair of shoes, isn't ready for the shoes he'll be buried in.

Luke passes the theoretical portion of the driving test but the practical part he still needs more work.  But he's getting a car because of impending parenthood.  So the nosy car saleswoman advises them to get a big boot.

But the milestone that Luke is struggling with isn't really about driving, it's about fatherhood.

Ava also is crossing a milestone, though an unplanned one.  First kiss, first girlfriend and oh, coming out.

This family has a lot of stuff going on.  Paul was cursing his son out when he was just a kid.  Should have saved it for when they're about to become young adults.

[possibilities]

The actress playing Ava did good job. I really felt what she was feeling.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

I wonder if any of the adults will make the comment that at least they don't have to worry about Ava getting pregnant early. (Although I think that if that were a possibility, Ava would be extra, extra careful.)

Edited August 9, 2023 by ItCouldBeWorse

[candall]

Could someone please remind me who Paul's talking about when he mutters, "Fuckin' Norah"?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

4 hours ago, candall said:

Could someone please remind me who Paul's talking about when he mutters, "Fuckin' Norah"?

It's a British expression/curse.

[possibilities]

Origins of Norah as a curse

https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-24596,00.html

Edited August 10, 2023 by possibilities

[candall]

On 8/9/2023 at 7:58 PM, possibilities said:

Origins of Norah as a curse

https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-24596,00.html

 

I like it. 

I think I can work Norah into the rotation.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Ava should introduce Holly to Luke before she meets their parents.  Less anxiety-inducing for Holly.

[possibilities]

I am relieved there isn't as much bickering and misery this season. Ava had a rough night, but it was easier to take than the protracted emotional abuse and fighting of the previous seasons. I didn't object to the previous seasons at the time, but nowadays I just really appreciate seeing people more or less getting along.

 

[aghst]

Yeah what happened, Paul just mellowed with age or something?

They don't show what's happening with his work, which was a source of stress in previous seasons.

Ally and Paul are getting along better but with their date night disrupted, the drought -- them not having sex in awhile -- continues.

Hmm, that can't be related can it, Ally withholding and Paul being nicer to everyone, even the nosy neighbor?

[Corgi-ears]

In a TV landscape where shows tend to mutate from being comedies to gritty, dark, humourless dramas (hi, Barry!), I appreciate that Breeders seems to have headed in the opposite direction. It's appropriate, too, as if the show's overarching point is that parenthood is often comprised of a number of years of absolute shit, and then there's light at the end of the tunnel that is in fact a kind of reward for all the hard work of parenting young kids and helping them into something like adulthood.

I think a lot of levity and humor comes from what has always been my fave character, Darren, who I always find hilarious. As Siobhan said, he is sweetly pathetic. I'm glad Patrick Baladi seems to be freer to film this show this season. I may even have a bit of a crush on Baladi, despite how -- or because -- he's not conventionally good looking.

ANYWAY, the episode set-up almost seemed like it would be some sort of Fraiser-ish French farce (when will someone let slip that Darren has kids?), though the episode also zigged away from this. The escalation was funny, and I thought the conflict was completely motivated by what we have, over the course of the series run, come to know of the characters. It made complete sense (and was unusual in terms of representation) that Ava actually wants her coming out to be a big deal (making her "old fashioned"), and this fits with her constant unhappiness about how she tends to get overshadowed by her elder brother, even as she also feels guilty about feeling this way. And then the episode was capped off with a genuinely touching moment between brother and sister. It feels like we waited for years for such a pay off, and it was very satisfying.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Corgi-ears

[possibilities]

I feel for Luke. That's a really tough decision and he's already a super-nervous person. I'm actually surprised he'd feel able to handle being far from "home" even without the baby situation.

Actually, Ava's also fairly anxious. It's likee this season the kids are stressed while the parents are relaxing.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Even though the Manchester course is an amazing opportunity, he needs to be there with Maya and the baby. It doesn't mean he has to settle for a lousy college. But perhaps his academic performance hasn't been great, so it's either a program that he is uniquely skilled for, or something mediocre. I would imagine that London would also have music tech programs, though, even if not as exclusive as the one in Manchester.

[aghst]

Obviously they're setting it up as he should go to the more prestigious program.

But Paul and Ally can't tell him because it might backfire.

Also, he's never had to earn and pay for things himself.  So he doesn't appreciate that he needs to choose the path that will enhance his income potential.

So Paul is more chill at his job, compared to the previous season.  And Ally is starting a new job.

Meanwhile Jackie fakes a fall so that they get into some assisted living facility, which is probably a great relief for Paul.

Ava's issues are typical teen drama.  It's at a fairly low level.  Luke is at a crucial crossroad, so more of a challenge to his parents.

It's still surprising how more zen Paul is than he used to be when the kids were young.

[possibilities]

I dunno. If Luke's participation in the Manchester program sets him up for life career-wise, that is also good for the baby. Maybe they should think about moving the pregnant girlfriend to Manchester.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/22/2023 at 11:58 AM, possibilities said:

I dunno. If Luke's participation in the Manchester program sets him up for life career-wise, that is also good for the baby. Maybe they should think about moving the pregnant girlfriend to Manchester.

I assume she's going to need her mother's help.  She's very young, and won't know anybody there besides Luke, who will have school and homework and no baby experience.  (I assume that she will be taking a break from school.) That's not a good setup.

[politichick]

I was so excited to discover last night that this show had returned and binged every episode. Sad that it's the last season, though.

But here's a question: Didn't Ally have a baby that was given Luke's room, which is why he moved to the basement?

[possibilities]

On 8/24/2023 at 6:54 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I assume she's going to need her mother's help.  She's very young, and won't know anybody there besides Luke, who will have school and homework and no baby experience.  (I assume that she will be taking a break from school.) That's not a good setup.

There's no solution that doesn't cause some pain. They all need to face that reality and grow up. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/25/2023 at 5:26 PM, politichick said:

But here's a question: Didn't Ally have a baby that was given Luke's room, which is why he moved to the basement?

Luke and Ava shared the 2nd bedroom until he moved to the basement, leaving Ava with her own bedroom.

[politichick]

On 8/27/2023 at 8:54 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Luke and Ava shared the 2nd bedroom until he moved to the basement, leaving Ava with her own bedroom.

Thanks! Have no idea why I thought there was a baby!!!

Anyway, so glad this show is back. Also so sorry it's leaving!

[aghst]

Hmm, Ally had a close-knit group of friends who ghosted her 17 years ago because of ... Paul and his raging, liberally using impolite words like "c***" all the time.

They get back together because they figure Ally and Paul would have split up by now.

Well that almost happened, now Ally is doubling-down on her family, since they love her shit muffins.

Turns out she has a higher tolerance for arseholes than she thought.

[possibilities]

Honestly, the friends were aresholes not to at least tell Aly what they thought  at the time. If they were so close, you'd think they'd make that much of an honest effort. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

Hmm, Ally had a close-knit group of friends who ghosted her 17 years ago because of ... Paul and his raging, liberally using impolite words like "c***" all the time.

They get back together because they figure Ally and Paul would have split up by now.

Well that almost happened, now Ally is doubling-down on her family, since they love her shit muffins.

Turns out she has a higher tolerance for arseholes than she thought.

I was really surprised that when the friends told Ally that they thought she would have split from Paul by now, she didn't tell them that instead, they had got married only half a dozen or so years ago!  It seems like the show forgot that Ally and Paul were "partners", not "spouses" for a very long time.

That may well be the reason the friends assumed that she wasn't with Paul now; under normal circumstances, it might have been in the best interest for a new mother to be married to the father of her child, but she hadn't wanted a legal commitment to Paul back then, so she must have had a reason.

Edited August 29, 2023 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ItCouldBeWorse]

I wish that Luke had told Maya that he turned down the admission because he didn't want to miss their baby's daily life.

[possibilities]

Yes, he doesn't seem at all enthusiastic, just driven by obligation. The two of them at dinner contrasted with Ava and her girlfriend underlines the difference. Also, Maya really isn't looking like she's any more into him than he is into the impending parenthood. She wants the baby but I'm not sure she wants him nearlly as much. 

Also, adults talk with their partners about major life decisions. They don't announce them after the fact.

And his default to the idea that she was asking for HIS mum and not hers? Ye Gods. 

Of course, no TV pregnancy ever proceeds without a crisis.

I wasn't amused by Paul and Aly stealing the taxi. Grow up.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

 

I wasn't amused by Paul and Aly stealing the taxi. Grow up.

They never came across as particularly nice people. Very self-involved.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

I also thought it strange that Paul wouldn't have discussed Luke using the car while he and Ally were away, instead of Luke having to call him in Malta to get permission.

Also, I'm not sure why Luke shared his meal with Maya instead of just offering to switch so she could have a full portion. And if he didn't like blue cheese, I'm sure there was something in his own kitchen that he could have eaten. (Somewhat strange that Italian food had surprise blue cheese, but ok.) 

 

 

[aghst]

So it was Malta, wasn't sure at first.

Really the other couple, who were younger, wanted a foursome?  Or they just wanted to have sex in the presidential suite?

Paul and Ally had just ended their dry spell.  Foursome might have led to some drama between the two.

So Paul and Ally are in the last phases of parenthood and Luke just blundered into his.  They are going to have more issues about him unilaterally turning down the Manchester deal, not just the two of them but with Paul and Ally.

 

[cinsays]

13 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

They never came across as particularly nice people. Very self-involved.

yeah, i ask myself constantly why i keep watching this program about really not nice and unhappy people

[Bluesky]

The whole episode was the overdone and stereotype of everyone running around all anxious because she went into labor.   That doesn’t happen.   Her mother and father were there so she was fine.   Luke going to find a bag of unnecessary items  was ridiculous.  Hospitals provide hats, specially premature babies.    
It sounds like the Manchester program is the place to go for his desired field.  Kind of like passing up Harvard Law School because you’re not thinking of the long future.   

[aghst]

Luke was frantic, Ava wasn't, Ally was, Paul wasn't.

But Luke is obviously not ready to be a father.

His future father in law telling him to man up was out of line but he wasn't wrong.

Really the time to be a man was to talk to Maya about whether they should really have the baby as teens and how it could derail the rest of their lives.

Look at Paul being the source of calm, after losing it at every opportunity when Luke was a little boy.

BTW, a biography on Elon Musk came out.  He was berated repeatedly as a boy and some theorize that now he's boss, he berates his employees

So Paul losing his cool all the time, cursing at Luke from the time he was a little boy.  Does it account for Luke's anxious personality, inability to confront some key challenges?  Actually Ava is anxious too, also tends to avoid conflict, like she was going to see a movie with her friend that she'd already seen previously and supposedly didn't like.

I guess he isn't replicating Paul's behavior.

Then again, the writers may not have thought about how he was raised has affected his development.  But given that the show covers almost all of Luke and Ava's childhood, it would be curious that they didn't think about that.

[Corgi-ears]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

So Paul losing his cool all the time, cursing at Luke from the time he was a little boy.  Does it account for Luke's anxious personality, inability to confront some key challenges?...

I guess he isn't replicating Paul's behavior.

Then again, the writers may not have thought about how he was raised has affected his development.  But given that the show covers almost all of Luke and Ava's childhood, it would be curious that they didn't think about that.

You think the show "does not think about [how Paul's parenting affects Luke and may be related to his anxiety]"? The entirety of Season 2 was about the clash between Paul and Luke, and the basic-ass Wiki summary of Season 3 Episode 1 even begins by saying, "With Paul having moved out after realizing his anger management issues were causing Luke anxiety..." Indeed, the entirety of the entire show is about children becoming parents--and about them possibly becoming their parents. So I think the show does think about it.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Corgi-ears

[aghst]

I meant as now a young adult.

Ally described Luke, why he might not have been more assertive in the delivery room and when they said only one person could stay with Maya overnight.

Those earlier seasons imply that he got past it and Paul too, now completely mellow, which is kind of hard to believe, because people don't do a 180.

Are we suppose to believe that their parenting made Luke anxious in this situation or just be given to conflict avoidance in general?

Ava also tends towards conflict avoidance and he wasn't bullied at all like Luke was.

[possibilities]

Living with a bullying parent with rage issues, even if you aren't the target, would easily account for Ava's meekness. She didn't want to become the target. So she stayed quiet and avoided any conflict.

I find Luke irritating, though. Yes, I understand why he is the way he is. But what is he doing about it? There is no reason for him not to be seeking ways to overcome or at least manage his anxiety, and if he wants to be a parent, he needs to get his shit together.

I would be more sympathetic if he seemed to be making an effort, but we don't see that. Maybe I'm just annoyed because I have been taking courses in anxiety research and treatment, so know he has options.

Anyway, I didn't think Maya's father was out of line, and apparently neither did Luke, which is when I started liking Luke again. He knows he's not rising to the occasion and was able to articulate that it's a problem. And him taking that small step actually got Paul to do something constructive and teach him something, instead of just grumbling about the kid's passivity behind his back, screaming at him counter-productively, or blowing smoke up his ass about how perfect he is. 

Ava's behavior is not as bad because choosing a movie is not as high stakes as parenting, but her being two-faced with her friends is a bad sign. If she can't be honest in a low stakes situation, what will happen when it really matters? Some people will rally when the stakes get critical, but many don't, because their speaking up and being honest muscles are atrophied. 

People are fallible. Really, nobody was in great form this episode. It's inexcusable that nobody even offered Luke the baby to hold-- he really shouldn't have had to assert himself in that regard. So Maya's mother is reinforcing his helplessness-- maybe because she's tired of it but also maybe because she's a dominating control-freak. We don't know which it is because we haven't seen much of her.

The show has never been about making the characters look good. In real life, people are messy and make terrible, chronic errors that have terrible  chronic consequences. So I don't fault the show for showing that. Most shows about families are so sanitized to make them pleasant, especially shows about parents and children. Maybe those shows can be characterized as aspirational, rather than sanitized. This show, however, is more of a wake up call than a daydream.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by possibilities

[aghst]

We will see if Paul and Ally try to make an issue of him turning down the scholarship.

They learned of it as they hurried back from Malta when Maya went into labor so they weren’t going to confront him about it.

But will they just let it go, figure Luke has to figure things out on his own even if it means making wrong decisions about his future — and the future of his family?

Or will they confront him?
 

Or will they confront the fact that the way they raised him led to Luke ceding agency — he said he has to have the kid, marry Maya and now stay close by, even if it means passing up certain opportunities?

 

[surfgirl]

Luke is a putz and Maya needs to tell him to stay in school for their future. He's such a short term quitter in everything. Ava deserves another family. And Jim is making ammends. That's all I got.

Edited September 19, 2023 by surfgirl

[oldCJ]

Irresponsible for a tv show to have a scene with a five-month old being put to sleep on a sofa surrounded by pillows. Unless the point was to show Maya is a useless moron and Luke needs to drop out of his program because she is going to kill Jay without him around. 

If his parents are so worried, why don’t they buy Luke a train pass? Or some noise-cancelling headphones? Or why Luke can’t bring Jay up to college with him sometimes instead. 

Surprised after all this time Luke isn’t on some type of anti-anxiety meds or in therapy, but instead appears to be resorting to violent outbursts like his father. 

[aghst]

Next week is series finale.

So in this penultimate episode, Jackie still remembers the affair but she's forgetting other things, like where she is or the age of her great grandson.

Luke gets his place back in the program but is doing 6-hour bus rides each way because he's worried about bonding with his infant son.

Even if he quits, the job he gets could be demanding of his time and he isn't able to see his son anyways, which is what millions of parents of young kids go through.

So he won't rage at the kid the way Paul did at him.  But he might smother the poor kid.

Ava is getting a double bed for sleepovers with her girlfriend but she couldn't ask for it herself, her parents took the initiative.

It's interesting, when Luke said he will ask for a deferment or just quit the program, Paul was calm and Ally was the one that was raising her voice.  It's like these writers didn't see the first couple of seasons.

Somehow Paul found zen since those years and he looks for a way to find a solution, in a calm, rational way, rather than scream and curse.

 

[possibilities]

I've seen it happen IRL, though, that if one person is losing it, the other gets into the calm and controlled role. And then if the losing-it person calms down, the other person starts to get more reactive.  It's like they balance each other. Otherwise, all hell REALLY breaks loose, with one person's wildness escalating off the other one's.

[surfgirl]

I don't see how they're going to tie up all the storyline forever next week, and in a half hour. 

[cinsays]

1 hour ago, surfgirl said:

I don't see how they're going to tie up all the storyline forever next week, and in a half hour. 

next week is the last episode of the series, not just the season?