S07.E06: Where the Waters Meet

[Athena]

Quote

Jamie and Claire help civilians flee Ticonderoga after the fort falls into British hands. Roger discovers the identity of the mysterious "Nuckelavee".

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This may include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[Ziggy]

I read the books a few years ago and only read Echo once, so I really don’t remember much.

I’m so glad we got to see Walter Woodcock! He and Claire we just so sweet together.

Loved Roger and Bree discussing time travel and his Hitchhikers Guide :-)

Awesome way to end the episode! Roger was way too nice to Buck in the past. I forget, does Buck realize who Roger is at this point? I don’t even remember why Buck is in Scotland.

[nodorothyparker]

Didn't Buck and the family go back to Scotland after everything went to shit for them in the Regulator War? I only vaguely remember this too because I admit to doing a fair bit of skimming through parts of the 1980s storyline, but I think he knew he knew Roger but obviously didn't understand that he was actually his descendent until Roger laid it out for him.

I realize Graham McTavish has enough other irons in the fire he probably wasn't interested in resuming playing Buck, but the Buck reveal at the end of the episode kind of falls flat when he's played by an actor no one has seen before and thus has no idea who he's supposed to be.

[nodorothyparker]

So now that I've had a chance to marinate on it a bit, I'm laughing that Claire, who we're told in the books at least skimmed the Scottish, English, and even French history she'd be going back to but not American because why would they ever go there? and thus bases most of her Revolution knowledge on elementary school homework and coloring sheets, can suddenly tell us that Saratoga is the "turning point that brings the French into the war." I doubt many Americans could tell you that off the tops of our heads without looking it up. Again, it must be seriously aggravating to be Jamie or Ian and have this and formerly Roger and Bree be the sum total of their foreknowledge of the future to try to make decisions by. IIRC we should be seeing Benedict Arnold likely as soon as next episode so Claire can tell Jamie oh yeah, he commits such a spectacular act of treason that his name is still shorthand for it 200 years later. But sorry, no, I don't remember what that treason actually was so you can watch yourself around him.

Another episode made up of a lot of stuff I would have thought probably would have been cut or seriously condensed. But very well done so I'm not complaining. At this point, I can only chalk Jamie up to wanting to stay and fight past his obligation to wanting to be on the winning side for once. He has to know from the tragedy of the first couple of seasons that history is going to happen the way it does no matter what he does or whether he's there or not.

I really enjoyed all the meetups in the fort between William, Claire, and Ian. It's not going to get any easier from here as you unknowingly get more and more entangled with your blood family, kid, so buckle up. And we got the prerequisite cameos from Brigadier Simon Fraser and Daniel Morgan, so that's about to happen too. The show has handled William obviously being played by a separate actor who bears a decent resemblance but isn't the book dead ringer for Jamie pretty well in that characters recognizing him still feels pretty naturally played and less a hamfisted "oh hey there, Jamie's secret son" than I was fearing from earlier changes. I understand that it's a production issue of where to set the explosives, but it kind of undercut the cool visual of Jamie so fiercely firing flaming arrows while his son looked on horrified at the result to see the apparent same charge being hit over and over with otherwise very little damage.

While I'm guessing the show probably didn't want to have to give another actor elaborate scars or the actor spending the rest of the show's run doing every line in what the books describe as a hoarse cracked voice, the end result has been Roger feeling like almost like a layabout house husband in the '80s story instead of a man who's really struggling with explaining away the physical changes from the past in the modern world where most people don't walk around with visible noose scars and just doesn't feel like he fits in his own time anymore. The Gaelic class was really lovely and looks like a viable path forward. But dude. Seriously? The guy just admitted to reading your "science fiction." You know how he hazed Bree. But you're still going to take his word for it that it's all good now and let him strongarm you into inviting him back to the house for dinner without even checking first? 

[shelen]

Ticonderoga is the Iroquois term for where the waters meet.

[Cdh20]

I loved this week! 
Highlights : William “ your servant, madame”♥️♥️

English officer “ the curly wig giving orders like a sargeant major”😂😂

Jamie “ tell me about my son” 😭😭

 

and Roger winning! 

[Cdh20]

On 7/22/2023 at 9:59 AM, nodorothyparker said:

So now that I've had a chance to marinate on it a bit, I'm laughing that Claire, who we're told in the books at least skimmed the Scottish, English, and even French history she'd be going back to but not American because why would they ever go there? and thus bases most of her Revolution knowledge on elementary school homework and coloring sheets, can suddenly tell us that Saratoga is the "turning point that brings the French into the war." I doubt many Americans could tell you that off the tops of our heads without looking it up. Again, it must be seriously aggravating to be Jamie or Ian and have this and formerly Roger and Bree be the sum total of their foreknowledge of the future to try to make decisions by. IIRC we should be seeing Benedict Arnold likely as soon as next episode so Claire can tell Jamie oh yeah, he commits such a spectacular act of treason that his name is still shorthand for it 200 years later. But sorry, no, I don't remember what that treason actually was so you can watch yourself around him.

Another episode made up of a lot of stuff I would have thought probably would have been cut or seriously condensed. But very well done so I'm not complaining. At this point, I can only chalk Jamie up to wanting to stay and fight past his obligation to wanting to be on the winning side for once. He has to know from the tragedy of the first couple of seasons that history is going to happen the way it does no matter what he does or whether he's there or not.

I really enjoyed all the meetups in the fort between William, Claire, and Ian. It's not going to get any easier from here as you unknowingly get more and more entangled with your blood family, kid, so buckle up. And we got the prerequisite cameos from Brigadier Simon Fraser and Daniel Morgan, so that's about to happen too. The show has handled William obviously being played by a separate actor who bears a decent resemblance but isn't the book dead ringer for Jamie pretty well in that characters recognizing him still feels pretty naturally played and less a hamfisted "oh hey there, Jamie's secret son" than I was fearing from earlier changes. I understand that it's a production issue of where to set the explosives, but it kind of undercut the cool visual of Jamie so fiercely firing flaming arrows while his son looked on horrified at the result to see the apparent same charge being hit over and over with otherwise very little damage.

While I'm guessing the show probably didn't want to have to give another actor elaborate scars or the actor spending the rest of the show's run doing every line in what the books describe as a hoarse cracked voice, the end result has been Roger feeling like almost like a layabout house husband in the '80s story instead of a man who's really struggling with explaining away the physical changes from the past in the modern world where most people don't walk around with visible noose scars and just doesn't feel like he fits in his own time anymore. The Gaelic class was really lovely and looks like a viable path forward. But dude. Seriously? The guy just admitted to reading your "science fiction." You know how he hazed Bree. But you're still going to take his word for it that it's all good now and let him strongarm you into inviting him back to the house for dinner without even checking first? 

Speaking to Claire not knowing much American history, Bree was there for like 5/6 years so she must have told Jamie a bit about  the war, the battles  & how long is goes on for before she left? Although at that point the Frasers were going to stay on the ridge & try to avoid it, so they had no idea they'd be in those northern battles?

[nodorothyparker]

They were going to try to sit it out as much as possible. That's one big reason why the land grant way out in the backcountry was so appealing. Beyond the free land, they thought they'd be mostly removed from the fighting.

Which as we know became an issue during the Regulator war leading up to the Revolution. Bree's education understandably was very Boston and Philadelphia centric. There hadn't been a ton written about the regulators and her knowledge of the southern front of the war, probably like most modern Americans', was pretty sketchy beyond knowing about Yorktown and the old Disney series about the Swamp Fox (for perspective, starring a young Leslie Nielsen), which hilariously pops up as Claire's primary reference point during Jamie's dealings with him in the last book.  Roger knew certain highlights as a history professor, but he was Scottish history professor of mostly British history so he wasn't a ton of help either. The show, of course, basically ignored most of this until now that Claire suddenly knows all about the significance of Saratoga.

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Speaking to Claire not knowing much American history, Bree was there for like 5/6 years so she must have told Jamie a bit about  the war, the battles  & how long is goes on for before she left? Although at that point the Frasers were going to stay on the ridge & try to avoid it, so they had no idea they'd be in those northern battles?

 

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

The show, of course, basically ignored most of this until now that Claire suddenly knows all about the significance of Saratoga.

I'm nearly positive that Bree did tell Jaime about Saratoga though. A couple of seasons back?

[SassAndSnacks]

On 7/21/2023 at 9:51 PM, nodorothyparker said:

Didn't Buck and the family go back to Scotland after everything went to shit for them in the Regulator War?

Yes - he ended up going through the stones mistakenly (ala Claire) in Scotland and then made his way to Lallybroch.  

On 7/21/2023 at 9:51 PM, nodorothyparker said:

the Buck reveal at the end of the episode kind of falls flat when he's played by an actor no one has seen before and thus has no idea who he's supposed to be.

100% this.  And and a quick perusal of the Show Only thread shares a lot of confusion and annoyance with how that entire plot point was conveyed.  

On 7/22/2023 at 11:59 AM, nodorothyparker said:

I doubt many Americans could tell you that off the tops of our heads without looking it up.

Can absolutely attest to this.  I was a history major and an unabashed history nerd, and I'm always shocked by how little people know or care to know.  I should be used to this by now, but my soul does die a bit each time.  

On 7/22/2023 at 11:59 AM, nodorothyparker said:

Another episode made up of a lot of stuff I would have thought probably would have been cut or seriously condensed. But very well done so I'm not complaining.

I feel like you're writing everything in my head!  As I was watching the episode my train of thought was "Oh, we're doing that? Ok..."  But it was done well, so do your thing, Show.  

On 7/22/2023 at 11:59 AM, nodorothyparker said:

While I'm guessing the show probably didn't want to have to give another actor elaborate scars or the actor spending the rest of the show's run doing every line in what the books describe as a hoarse cracked voice, the end result has been Roger feeling like almost like a layabout house husband in the '80s story instead of a man who's really struggling with explaining away the physical changes from the past in the modern world where most people don't walk around with visible noose scars and just doesn't feel like he fits in his own time anymore.

THIS!!!!!  The show has continuously done Roger dirty from Season 4 onward.  His character arc is so compelling in the books, but in the show he just comes across as whiney.  I loved the book thread of him having to uncomfortably shrug away the rope scar when people saw it and that he had to live through modern people thinking he'd tried to kill himself.  And his journey to getting his singing voice back was so heartwarming.  I adore Rik Rankin, and he could have easily carried all of this off.  

 

I need to watch this one again because I have mixed feelings.  I never pictured their retreat from Ticonderoga occurring during the day, so it was jarring for me to see that and took me out of the story.  When I read this section of the book, it was so tense and scary, but this didn't feel at all like that.  I just seemed like Claire, Jamie, and Ian were walking around the same circle of woods, which made it seem silly to me.  

I did really enjoy captive Claire (for like the 50th time), and her interactions with William were so strong.  I was so pleased they included the "curly wig" comment.  

 

[Ziggy]

26 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I need to watch this one again because I have mixed feelings.  I never pictured their retreat from Ticonderoga occurring during the day, so it was jarring for me to see that and took me out of the story.  When I read this section of the book, it was so tense and scary, but this didn't feel at all like that.  I just seemed like Claire, Jamie, and Ian were walking around the same circle of woods, which made it seem silly to me.

That part did seem silly. I think that was the one part that was bothering me.  I liked much of this episode, but the parts in the woods should have been suspenseful and just weren't.  Jamie & Co. looking for Claire and bump into Denzell, then everyone relaxes because there couldn't possibly be anyone else nearby.  Ian almost shoots an arrow at Jamie, but then sees that it's Jamie.  Oh, good, we're fine now.  Claire and Jamie proceed to have a conversation out in the open.

They've done such a great job in the past, that this was just a bit of a let down.

Did I mention I did like this episode?  Because I really did, other than the lack of tension in the woods.

[SassAndSnacks]

22 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

They've done such a great job in the past, that this was just a bit of a let down.

Did I mention I did like this episode?  Because I really did, other than the lack of tension in the woods.

Yes to all of this!

I'm going to watch it while I run today.  If I run faster and don't notice the time going by = great episode.  If I'm distracted and run slower = meh episode.

This is all very scientific!

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, SassAndSnacks said:

The show has continuously done Roger dirty from Season 4 onward.  His character arc is so compelling in the books, but in the show he just comes across as whiney.

Hmmm. Who was it that said Show gives the characters from the buiks a more "mutlifaceted" characterization? Seems tae me, it's only done for the villians and arseholes, because ye ken, we MUST see they're no' ALL bad! there's a REASON!😒

Edited July 24, 2023 by GHScorpiosRule

[Ziggy]

So, I've been giving this way too much thought, but ...

Even if Graham McTavish were playing Buck, would a nonbookreader have actually recognized Buck at the end of the episode?  I'm honestly thinking they probably would not have.  He was barely in the earlier episode, and it was just the one episode.

I'm starting to think that the show runners saw it as more of a cliff hanger than a reveal.

 

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Hmmm. Who was it that said Show gives the characters from the buiks a more "mutlifaceted" characterization? Seems tae me, it's only done for the villians and arseholes, because ye ken, we MUST see they're no' ALL bad! there's a REASON!😒

It was me! They have certainly cleaned up Book Jamie but I love TVJamie so no complaints from me!

They have downplayed any physical handicaps, & made miraculous recovery from all injuries, which I expect to continue ( the exception was Fergus’ hand).  I think this was necessary from an aesthetic point of view, & for makeup work, & filming. I think they figured that out from Jamie’s back scars ( which were totally necessary to the whole story)- too much time & work. But Roger’s scar, & Voice problems moving forward should have been more necessary as well.

[SassAndSnacks]

On 7/24/2023 at 10:57 AM, SassAndSnacks said:

I'm going to watch it while I run today.  If I run faster and don't notice the time going by = great episode.  If I'm distracted and run slower = meh episode.

This is all very scientific!

Providing an update because I know everyone was waiting with bated breath!

After a nice long run to this episode, I feel kinda the same.  The beginning with William riding back to the fort and the rebel civilians escaping through the forest did absolutely nothing for me.  This was something I didn't think they would adapt for tv, always assuming they would hop into the story at Saratoga, and I'm left a little...unmoved...by it all.  I hit pause and did a quick count of the people retreating from Ticonderoga.  It was a little less than 30 (hard to tell if one boat had 5 or 6 people in it).  When reading, I pictured closer to 100, but maybe I was way off on that. This whole situation still feels silly to me.

But everything else was really solid.  

Full disclosure - I'm also catching up on the final season of Succession which is so incredibly intense.  By comparison now, this felt a little flippant, but that's not fair to Outlander.  And in no way am I advocating for Succession-level intensity every week.  There are only so many therapy dogs and butterflies in the world to help us all cope.  

Edited July 25, 2023 by SassAndSnacks

[FnkyChkn34]

On 7/21/2023 at 9:51 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I realize Graham McTavish has enough other irons in the fire he probably wasn't interested in resuming playing Buck, but the Buck reveal at the end of the episode kind of falls flat when he's played by an actor no one has seen before and thus has no idea who he's supposed to be.

Thank you!  Everyone in the non-book readers thread is extremely confused, myself included.  It meant nothing to us.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Get ready for my weekly rant: NOT ENOUGH JAMIE for ME!

WOT???

And I probably shouldn't have done this before the first half of this season has aired, but I started watching season one. Again. For the umpteenth time. And well, ye all ken wot I'm going tae sae next, aye? But it's off topic here, and I'll leave it at, soooo much better than the last two or three seasons. And Jamie and Claire's "song" that haunting, bootiful theme.

[SassAndSnacks]

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

ye all ken wot I'm going tae sae next, aye

Wigs?!

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Wigs?!

Nope!

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 7/21/2023 at 9:51 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I realize Graham McTavish has enough other irons in the fire he probably wasn't interested in resuming playing Buck, but the Buck reveal at the end of the episode kind of falls flat when he's played by an actor no one has seen before and thus has no idea who he's supposed to be.

Spoiler

Graham will be back this season according to a press release about new and returning cast members released before the premiere, but only as Dougal. It might be in the second half.

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

  Hide contents

Graham will be back this season according to a press release about new and returning cast members released before the premiere, but only as Dougal. It might be in the second half.

 

Most likely

in a flashback. Would love to see Gary Lewis and Grant O’Rourke and Stephen Walters as weeell

.

[ruby24]

Something that's bothering me now is that it seems they've completely given up on making their actors do American accents. Aren't Denny and Rachel supposed to be American? And Daniel Morgan? They all sound extremely British

[Ziggy]

5 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Something that's bothering me now is that it seems they've completely given up on making their actors do American accents. Aren't Denny and Rachel supposed to be American? And Daniel Morgan? They all sound extremely British

Your post made me very curious, so I looked up a couple of things. Daniel Morgan was born in the Colonies (probably New Jersey, according to Wikipediea). His parents were Welsh immigrants, and all four of his grandparents lived in Pennsylvania. (He also had 6 siblings.) It seems likely he would have a Welsh accent or at least his accent would be strongly influenced.

The bio on the Hunters was lacking in details. They were orphaned very young and taken care of by their Quaker community before a relative was located in London. Denny went to school in Philadelphia and apprenticed in London. (I believe Rachel stayed in London.). I’m guessing their accents would be heavily influenced by their time in London.

It seems to me that accents of the time would really be determined by the community a person lived in. I would suspect Jemmy had a strong Scottish accent, because Fraser’s Ridge was mostly Scots, and I get the impression that the nearby Germans we hear so much about have maintained their German accents.

I was bummed Breanna didn’t have a Boston accent. I’ve read that it’s a difficult accent to learn, but I think it would have been cool.

i actually like the character of Breanna and the actress. (I know, minority opinion.) I do wish someone would tell her that she says “anything” wrong. She’s been on the show for seven years. Surely someone in production has noticed 😊

Edited July 31, 2023 by Ziggy

[nodorothyparker]

There was some interview where it was mentioned that the guy playing Daniel Morgan is doing a Welsh by way of the colonies accent because that was his background. I don't know enough about the Welsh accent to have any opinion on how successful he's being at it.

From what little I've read on the subject, the American accent as we know it didn't really happen until well after our separation from Britain. Up until that point, your accent was heavily dependent on the community you were surrounded with. I think it's in either the fifth or sixth book Claire comments on the oddity of the River Run slaves having very Scottish accents while Ulysses has a proper British accent and then realizes he came from elsewhere where he was taught by an educated Englishman while the enslaved born at Riverrun or the surrounding areas have heard mostly Scottish accented English all their lives and would be reflecting that.