Nate the Great (or Not so Great)

[paramitch]

From kit man to coach, from bullying victim to bully, share your take on Nate...

 

[paramitch]

So let's talk about Nate.

As a fan of "Ted Lasso" and its message of kindness, I'm really surprised and bummed at how vitriolic the hate for Nate is in the fanbase, and how many people have openly expressed rage, anger, wanting him beaten, killed, etc., or at the very least, not thinking he deserves redemption -- and I just don't understand that.

As far as Nate finding redemption, I don't think it would be "Ted Lasso" if he didn't.

Yes, Nate has done some cruel and unlikable things -- he was bullying to Will (and Colin), he betrayed Ted's anxiety issues to the newspapers, and he lashed out at Ted angrily in the S2 finale and ripped the "Believe" sign before going to work for Rupert.

But we also saw why he was that way -- we saw ourselves that he has been bullied by his teammates in the past (by Jamie and several others), that the previous coaches never bothered to learn his name, that he was emotionally abused by his father, and treated cruelly by the world that seemed to want to remind him of how little he matters.

I just don't find any of this unforgivable or impossible to get past. Nate is a lonely, bullied, and abused person who has for most of his life been made to feel small, worthless, and unloved. Look at his initial rage in the S1 finale when he's promoted but he's instantly sure he's being mocked. Even Ted overlooked him many times in season 2 without informing him on changes to the staff, and Ted and Roy also expressed open pity for Nate last season too -- laughing at and hurting him without meaning to. It wasn't deliberate, but it contributed to Nate's impression that he matters less than others do.

This isn't Ted's fault, it's just that Nate is inwardly an abused and hurt child whose rage has been building all his life. It had to go somewhere beyond petty bullying, so of course he finally lost his temper to Ted in the S2 finale, in a scene I found heartbreaking (and it was evident that Ted did too). Nate is angry there but he is also visibly hurt -- he's visibly weeping when he tells Ted how upset he is. Again, he's a kid inside there.

So no, I can't hate Nate.

The great psychology behind Nate as a character is that anger of his. It's so realistic and well-done. And it had to go somewhere, so Nate was finally able to let it go and of course, the sad thing is that he directed it at Ted, who didn't deserve that.

But I also like that he chose Ted. Because he chose to express his hurt and rage to someone who would accept it and even listen to him and understand it. Ted is a safe person for Nate to explode to, basically -- which is why I think he chose Ted as his target. Of course Nate's anger is really at his father, at Jamie and everyone else who ever hurt and bullied him all his life. But he wasn't able to speak out to them yet. 

This anger also ties into why I think Ted is the only person NOT angry at Ted on the team. Because Ted understands what Nate is feeling. He had a father who hated himself, who turned that anger and rage inward in the ultimate act of self-hate -- suicide. Ted does not hate Nate, he cares about him, and I love that. I love that it isn't Ted's toxic positivity, he is simply, truly, kind and he understands Nate's self-hate better than perhaps Nate does.

The scene that I think deliberately mirrors this is when Ted tells his ex-wife that he is angry and disappointed in her for dating their therapist. But that he still loves and cares for her. Ted is so mentally healthy there, and that's also how I think he feels (with less anger) for Nate too.

Meanwhile, I would argue that this third season has been somewhat nuanced this season on Nate, and it is a definitive arc:

• First, we see Nate puffed up and his worst self in E1 this season (S3) -- rudely dismissing or ignoring co-workers, glowing in praise from Rupert, being catty at the press conference.
• Yet we also see him notice Rupert's cruelty and gameplaying and (subtly) that Nate does not like or approve of this. 
• While Nate snubs the handshake with Ted, he later regrets it and visibly attempts to approach Ted before losing the chance.
• We see Rupert play with Nate by changing what he is allowed to call him. Last season's Nate would have spiraled into self-hate. This season he reacts calmly to Rupert's jabs and reacts with confidence.
• Nate openly expresses to Rupert that he regrets his behavior to Ted and would like to apologize. Rupert being pure evil of course tells him not to, but Nate does not look convinced.
• Nate has since been shown to be more kind and respectful to people around him.
• We also see Nate looking thoughtfully at his game board and at the Ted figure there. When he knocks the figure off the board, in a moment of childishness -- he then looks ashamed, picks up Ted's piece and puts it respectfully back on the board.
• In episode 5, Nate is on the date with the model, and he is visibly kind, confident, respectful, and surprisingly at ease. Even when she is cruel about the restaurant and the food, Nate is adult and respectful in return, and he gives her a beautiful monologue about why the restaurant is important to him. He is actually telling her about himself, and confident enough to do so. For me, this is a really big deal.
• Then he's jilted by the model, but he's rueful but still okay. Not spitting at himself, not childishly enraged. He's just grateful when Jade comes over to sit with him (and while I dislike their romance, I do like that she recognizes how mature and kind Nate was there).
• Then in episode 7, Nate is terrified of asking Jade out. He goes to the bathroom to build himself up, to spit at himself in that horribly empowering/belittling ritual of his. And then he doesn't, and I just loved that. I'm not a fan of Jade, but that was awesome.

So I would argue that Nate is on a journey of redemption. But it's not about redeeming himself to Ted. There is no need of that, Ted already loves and forgives Nate. It is about Nate redeeming himself to HIMSELF, about learning to love and accept himself.

So I get why the show continues to show us Nate's journey. Ted cares about him, and so do I. Ted still has Nate's player on his Lego board. Still has Nate's picture displayed at home. Ted understands why Nate lashed out, he knows that outburst was about so much more than him. He doesn't hate Nate, and I don't either.

There is a great little moment in the movie "Magnolia" where a mistreated little boy faces his father and says, "You need to be nicer to me." 

That's all I want for Nate. I don't care if he finds true love with weirdly bullying/affectless/mean/nice Jade. But I do want him to apologize to Ted, to realize how much Ted cared for him and still does (how wrong he was). To see the picture in Ted's apartment. To get a hug from Ted.

And I -- most of all -- I want Nate to face his horrible father and say, "You need to stop treating me the way you do. The way you have treated me is not okay. You need to be nicer and more respectful to me."

But what do you think?

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

Nate has since been shown to be more kind and respectful to people around him.

I respectfully disagree with some of your post, especially the above quote.

 When the manager of the restaurant is gushing over him and makes the comment “from one manager to another,” Nate is quick to point out that they aren’t really the same.  He brags to Jade about his new job and introduces his date to her as a famous supermodel.  We haven’t seen him interact with his players beyond the “dum-dum” line.  To whom has he been nice beyond the girl he wants to date?  And right now we are seeing him happy because life is going great; what do we get when the team starts to lose or he has one critic not agreeing he’s a wonder kid?  He even programmed his own phone to compliment him.

It is true that abusers often were abused themselves; they should still be held to account.

I’ve said before that after their sensitive exploration of mental health issues, this show cannot let Nate’s story end as “if you put up with someone’s toxic and abusive behavior long enough, he/she just might change.”  They can redeem Nate all they want, but he should have to live with regrets.  I don’t want a big hug-out with Ted.  I want Nate to find out about the photo and how he betrayed a man who wanted nothing but the best for him.  I don’t want Ted to dismiss the apology as unnecessary.  I’m tired of the mistaken impression that forgiveness means there can’t be boundaries or repercussions.  

[DEL901]

I don’t think Nate was “visibly kind, confident, respectful and surprisingly at ease” on his date with the model.  He was both arrogant and insecure as he knew deep down she was only with him because of his job and wouldn’t have given him a second look otherwise. 

He did have a horrible start in life with a terrible father who tore him down and contributed to his feelings of inferiority and rage.  But contrast his journey with Jamie’s.  He also grew up with a terrible father, and acted up and out, but when shown real acceptance he embraced it.  He is self aware and knows he is sometimes selfish.   But he can also accept help and criticism.  Look at him and Roy.  He accepts Roy’s help and criticism where as Nate rages at the slightest comment. 

[braziliangirl]

To me Ted Lasso is about kindness but also about the anger/agressiveness (that resides in every human being). So we see different ways that the characters dealt with this. Like you said @paramitch Ted's dad turned this impulses totally inward. Jamie's dad looks like goes totally outward. Rupert too in a sense. 

Ted almost  pretends that he doesn't feel it because he's scared of that emotion. But it has a cost too. He was scared of winning, having panic attacks, we know that -partially - was a problem in his marriage. I do find it interesting that Nate was the only one who saw this sort of 'raw agressiviness" from Ted. 

Roy used to use that anger playing  but whe he's close to retire and can't to that anymore it turns inward and he doesn't want to be a guy named Roy or breaks up with Keeley and hurts her. And I can understand Nate being mad that he wasn't upset because he kissed Keeley. It's like saying "you don't count". 

Jamie bullied people and then know has a clear sign when he can be a prick.

When Rebecca teaches Nate to ask for the best table he often keeps changing into submissive or really rude.

But it's like Total Football. It's necessary to survive to have the versality to reign in the anger inward (so you can see that other people exist and to connect with them)  and sometimes (when apropriate) be a prick (so you can defend yourself, win games, say things that are hurting you).

Nate doesn't know how to that...yet. But, then again they are all learning. Ted, Nate, Rebecca, Keely, Roy. 

The thing I'm sad it's not seeing more of Nate's transformation. His job, if he still seeing twitter, etc. Is he changing? I think so. But I want to see more of why this is happenning. 

I do want him to say sorry for the awful things he has done and face the music. I also want him to be and feel better. Because like Ted I rather believe that we (as people) can change than not. Life is hard enough. 

 

. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by braziliangirl

[DEL901]

I don’t thing there is enough time for Nate to have the same redemption arc as Jamie, but I’d be satisfied if he is humbled, sees his own contribution to his downfall and starts sessions with Dr Sharon to start to grow and experience meaningful change…perhaps with Ted’s encouragement. 

[lovinbob]

On 4/29/2023 at 11:31 AM, braziliangirl said:

And I can understand Nate being mad that he wasn't upset because he kissed Keeley. It's like saying "you don't count". 

I have a lot of mixed feelings about Nate, and this part of the situation in particular. For me the bottom line is that there are many valid reasons why Roy didn't get upset at Nate, and that Nate expected a head butt shows that he doesn't understand himself well at all.

Nate is, to put it kindly, very immature with limited social skills. It's as if his social and emotional development were stunted at some point. He doesn't understand himself or his colleagues and the team. His self esteem grew tremendously, and fast, thanks to Ted's recognition of his talents, but  his self-awareness or ability to relate to others hasn't caught up.

When he kissed Keeley -- that made me so angry. It was so out of line, and it illustrated how immature and out of touch he was. How could he think that was appropriate in that situation? It would seem he'd not had any experience with a woman being kind to him, so when Keeley treated him like a friend, he misread the situation and seized the moment in such an inappropriate way. It broke my heart for Keeley, that she can't even be kind to a friend/colleague (and colleague of her boyfriend!) without getting hit on. (Juno Temple played that scene beautifully, IMO.)

I guess my reation shows that you're right -- it should have angered Roy too. So maybe Nate was justified in feeling hurt that Roy didn't consider him enough of a threat to be angry at him. But ... is it that Roy didn't think he mattered? Or that Nate himself doesn't think that he matters?

But also ... the reality of Nate is that he was not a threat to Roy and Keeley for a whole bunch of valid reasons. Along those lines, he's not an alpha male (or an experienced coach, or someone with good social skills) who would have been the right person to address Isaac. That Nate seriously thought he would have been the "big dog" Ted was looking for to deal with a personnel issue affecting their captain just showed how he doesn't know himself well, and he doesn't understand other people either.

Similarly -- recall that Nate's solution to Dani's yips situation was, "We could just show him his paycheck." This shows he has SO MUCH growing to do as a coach. 

So I get that Nate's feelings are hurt, but that has more to do with Nate than it does with anyone else's behavior or intentions.

That's what I would hope for -- that Nate can see how out of line his reactions were to these situations. 

[KittenPokerCheater]

If this is a Nate Only episode, I'm not going to like watching it very much.

[Crs97]

I thought Nate was ridiculous for being upset that Roy didn’t want to kill him.  I’m sure Roy was angry until Keeley told him how embarrassed and apologetic Nate was.  Very different scenario than Keeley’s ex boyfriend telling her he loved her.  I think loveinbob is right that Nate doesn’t know himself and is emotionally immature.  Problem for me is he is also a bully and overreacts exponentially to situations in ways that are cruel and toxic.  I don’t want him back in this circle anymore.

[DEL901]

55 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I thought Nate was ridiculous for being upset that Roy didn’t want to kill him.  I’m sure Roy was angry until Keeley told him how embarrassed and apologetic Nate was.  Very different scenario than Keeley’s ex boyfriend telling her he loved her.  I think loveinbob is right that Nate doesn’t know himself and is emotionally immature.  Problem for me is he is also a bully and overreacts exponentially to situations in ways that are cruel and toxic.  I don’t want him back in this circle anymore.

Nate has no idea about relationships. He will have a melt down at their first disagreement.     And that diorama certainly showed his immaturity.   What female over 12 would find that appealing from a grown man unless it had a special meaning to them as a couple.

 

2 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

If this is a Nate Only episode, I'm not going to like watching it very much.

This tread isn’t about a Nate-centric episode…it is just about Nate.  

[ybrik]

Okay late to the show and just binged the first two season. Haven’t started the third season so don’t know anything about the fallout from the season 2 finale with Nate. I think the show has done a good job establishing this turn. Hell enjoyed the show bookending the season with focusing on his face. I have a few thoughts that may have been brought up in episode posts.

One thing I felt was that Ted admitting to the panic attack seemed to be a turning point for Nate and his feelings towards Ted. Maybe I am reading too much into it but it really seemed after Ted admits to the panic attack Nate really starts taking shots at Ted. It coincides with the whole Wonder Kid stuff too so that may be the driving force. However, it felt like Ted admitting this weakness allowed Nate to see Ted as less then he used to. Ted now became someone he felt superior to now. 

Also I was struck by him saying that he earned what he got and telling Ted that he didn’t. I understand that Ted wasn’t a soccer/football coach but he had been a coach for years. Nate was a kitman before Ted came in. I am not sure if he really believes it or if he is trying to belittle Ted’s experience as way to make himself feel superior and justified in his resentment and betrayal.

Also I feel like the suit was sort of metaphor for Ted ‘giving’ Nate his coaching job. He was probably reading it online and maybe hearing it too that it built up some resentment.   

[braziliangirl]

21 hours ago, lovinbob said:

 

But also ... the reality of Nate is that he was not a threat to Roy and Keeley for a whole bunch of valid reasons. Along those lines, he's not an alpha male (or an experienced coach, or someone with good social skills) who would have been the right person to address Isaac. That Nate seriously thought he would have been the "big dog" Ted was looking for to deal with a personnel issue affecting their captain just showed how he doesn't know himself well, and he doesn't understand other people either

Just to say I agree with you 100% about this. But Nate coudn't see that and was really hurt. Nate coudn't even understand that all of the topdogs were messes and suffering too. 

My main point is that I want him to be better and that I think his relationships with different people are really interesting. And I don't want him out of the show like it seems a lot of people want. Or having a miserable life or something. 

 

[EtheltoTillie]

Nick Mohammed is in a new movie called Maggie Moore(s), based on a true crime.  I just saw the trailer.  Also starring John Hamm and Tina Fey.

[AheadofStraight]

Nick Mohammed outlines his thoughts on Nate's redemption in quite some detail here... 

 

[Girl in a Cardigan]

I really appreciate Nick's thoughts and motivations on this and it gives me a better understanding of the character and where the show was trying to go.

I guess my problem is...I didn't get it. I didn't see the pauses in Rupert's office in the beginning as Nate not being comfortable with what he's done, but simply that Nate isn't a confident guy in general or that he's in over his head, but he still feels he deserves it. As someone in the episode threads summed up brilliantly, the show really "showed their work" with the layering of Nate's insecurities with his rise in AFC Richmond in season 1 and the full heel turn in season 2. I guess, they tried to walk it back in one season what they walked forward in two and it didn't work for me. Jade being part of all of it didn't work for me either because Nate's such a walking red flag about women (even as the "catharsis" is coming to an end, it's all about "my girlfriend" and never "Jade") that I can't imagined changed just because he met the right one.

Maybe I'll rewatch season 3 straight through with this bits in mind to see how it all fits together, but when your actor has to write a three page letter to fans to explain how it works, the storytelling failed a bit IMO.  But obviously, Nick did a brilliant job in layering all of these things and working on this character to really make us believe in the first two seasons and I wanted more to bring us back if this is where it was going to end up.

[pennben]

Almost like Nate writing a 60 page apology, no?!:)