Speculation: Montauk Does Rashomon

[Pallas]

I'm  thinking Phoebe, Boundary, because we just met her (when we didn't need to), she seems to be a native Montauker with ties to the Lockharts as well as Alison, and most of all because of her conversation with Alison about marriage.  Oh, and she surfs.  

[Boundary]

It would explain why Alison would be invited to her wedding. It makes sense but would she take her best friend's old husband? Scratch that, in this show she would.

[gingerella]

I'm  thinking Phoebe, Boundary, because we just met her (when we didn't need to), she seems to be a native Montauker with ties to the Lockharts as well as Alison, and most of all because of her conversation with Alison about marriage.  Oh, and she surfs.

I agree with this, and yet...I wonder...is there any chance that the wedding could be for Scotty and Whitney? She seemed pretty taken with him, schmuck though he is...thwt would certainly give Noah reason to want to kill him, given the rage side of Noah we saw at the Planned Parenthood clinic last week.

As for Alison attending a wedding for Cole and Phoebe, why would that end up with Scotty being killed or accidentally run down? Doesnt make sense. Could Whitney have been there, with Scotty, and somehow Noah wasnt expecting them to still be together, so he got his rage on? Or could Whitney have been there with Scotty, and somehow gotten really drunk and drove off, accidentally running him over down the road? A lovers quarrel, he stomps off because its his home turf and he can walk anywhere out there and know where he is. Princess Whitney gets drunk and drives off to find him and accidentally runs him over? Or Noah sees them together at this wedding, sees Scotty walk off, and goes after him by car and sees the opportunity to run him over on a desolate road without witnesses and decides to take him out so Whitney cant run off with him? I wouldnt have thought any of this a few epis ago, but now that we have seen what it looks like when Noah's rage bubbles to the surface, I could see him seeing an opportunity and going for it as payback for knocking up his underage daughter.

[IMCranky]

Liked this interview with Sarah Treem and the new perspectives we may get next season:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/affair-creator-finales-big-reveal-759796

[Pallas]

I wonder...is there any chance that the wedding could be for Scotty and Whitney?

 

Y'know...that's a deeply hilarious and somewhat plausible idea.  Whitney is certainly willful enough, and the chagrin it would cause all the grown-ups, from  the grandparents to the parents!  (And the groom:: "Is she gone yet?")  Actually I take that back -- Cherry Lockhart might be delighted to have her bad seed married off to Bruce Butler's oldest grandchild.  And enjoy how this sticks it to Noah, by then a best-selling author himself.  And I suppose I can see a couple of scenarios where even Scotty-the-groom would end up alone and accidentally/not-so-much run down, on his wedding night.

 

But I still think it's more likely that Scotty was not the groom, and therefore more apt to somehow get himself into the situation he did not survive, that night.  It does seem that Noah/Alison's car was the instrument, unless Noah panicked about an unrelated piece of body work he knew would look suspicious. 

[Boundary]

I agree with this, and yet...I wonder...is there any chance that the wedding could be for Scotty and Whitney? 

 

I've thought of this and it doesn't work for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the detective doesn't expect Alison to be invited to the wedding, true for Scotty but less true for Whitney (she's the step mom after all). Secondly, Scotty leaves the party to go to The End, would he leave his own wedding? And if Noah would be so enraged about Scotty and Whitney, wouldn't he have had a couple of years to deal with it by then?

 

Noah has something to hide, Alison has something she's nervous about but still I can help thinking that Scotty's death has something to do with the drug trade. They lose the ranch, wouldn't it make sense some of them would go back to the game?

Edited December 22, 2014 by Boundary

[stillshimpy]

Wow.  Okay, promising to add Helen and Cole's perspectives just sold me on coming back for this next season. 

[Ellaria]

And if Noah would be so enraged about Scotty and Whitney, wouldn't he have had a couple of years to deal with it by then?

 

Noah has something to hide, Alison has something she's nervous about but still I can help thinking that Scotty's death has something to do with the drug trade. They lose the ranch, wouldn't it make sense some of them would go back to the game?

 

To your first point, yes...it seems that something else needs to occur for Noah to be so enraged at Scotty that he would kill him.

 

And yes, it is plausible for them to get back in the drug trade. We heard a mention of number of times about how they were "broke." While it would be an incredibly stupid choice, it could fit within the story.

[minimilah]

i'm almost positive it was alison who did something wrong and noah is trying to protect her and covering up for her.

Edited December 22, 2014 by minimilah

[JenE4]

i'm almost positive it was alison who did something wrong and noah is trying to protect her and covering up for her.

 

That seems too obvious, though. I would almost like it better if Helen borrowed the "family car" (even if they weren't any longer a "family" per se) and did it yet Noah and Alison know and they decide to protect her--Noah because he feels guilty about tearing their family apart and Alison because she doesn't want to start another "family" war with the Lockharts. I mean, I've had theories throwing this on everyone, lol, but today I'm going with this order of suspects, based on Noah's car being the "murder weapon":

1. Helen (See above.)

2. Martin (I stated a theory in a previous post that they have shown him to be "troubled" from day 1 for some reason.)

3. Alison (She's too obvious as the person Noah would most want to protect, so need to bump her down a couple of notches for that reason alone.)

4. Whitney (Again, would be too obvious as a jilted lover and someone Noah would protect.)

5. Max (No reason here but I REALLY don't think Noah did it, so I need other suspects before him, and Max could feasibly borrow Noah's car.)

6. Mrs. Butler (Because why the hell not--and I'm running out of people who could reasonably have access to Noah's car.)

7. Bruce Butler (Because let's really go wild and make up a scenario in which Mrs. Butler, sick and tired of 50 years' of her husband's philandering, cheats with Scotty, the manho of Montauk! LOL!)

8. Noah (The wrong guy is ALWAYS the suspect early on.)

 

Ok, only 1-4 are actual speculation; 5-7 are just for fun. But #8, Noah, COULD get bumped back up to the top of the list at any time only for the fact that I want Detective Jefferies to be right and for Noah to cause his own undoing by accidentally putting clues in his book and stupidly bribing people, etc.

[Constantinople]

I wonder how much money Noah will have left after the child support, alimony, lawyers fees for any criminal related proceedings and the wrongful death lawsuit.

[minimilah]

I mean, I've had theories throwing this on everyone, lol, but today I'm going with this order of suspects, based on Noah's car being the "murder weapon":

1. Helen (See above.)

2. Martin (I stated a theory in a previous post that they have shown him to be "troubled" from day 1 for some reason.)

hmmmm.... this actually seems highly possible. oh & i thought of martin, too! might be martin tryna be cool and stealing dad's car and whoops. maybe an accident happened.

maybe scotty threatened whitney or something and helen decided to handle it?

[IMCranky]

Would Planned Parenthood still have the video of the altercation between Noah and Scotty a few years on, or would they have already cycled their security tapes? So, who gave the detective the footage from Planned Parenthood - Helen or her mom?

[stillshimpy]

1. Helen (See above.)

2. Martin (I stated a theory in a previous post that they have shown him to be "troubled" from day 1 for some reason.)
3. Alison (She's too obvious as the person Noah would most want to protect, so need to bump her down a couple of notches for that reason alone.)

 

Number one seems unlikely because why would Alison participate in helping to cover up anything for Helen and when you get right down to it, why would Noah not simply reach a point where he would throw her to the wolves?  

 

Martin seems possible, because we've seen him do things he can't explain and Noah protecting Martin seems within the realm of possibility.  Plus Alison's "you believe me, don't you?" seems to indicate that she has some reason to believe in that moment that Noah might doubt her.  I think Alison and Noah are the most likely with either Whitney or Martin existing as possibilities.  

[Boundary]

But what is it about The End that proves anything? I presume that Noah isn't welcome at the Butlers' and at the Lockharts' so he needs a hotel in Montauk to accommodate him. How is that a sign of guilt?

[Pallas]

The sign of guilt was Noah's lying about even knowing about The End, on the road to which, Scotty met his own.  What sent Jeffries after Noah and Alison in the first place?  Possibly, he had an intuition about the woman who showed up alone at Scotty's service and sat in the back.  And/or someone -- Cherry? -- told Jeffries the backstory of Scotty's former sister-in-law and Bruce Butler's former son-in-law, and how messy things got between the families. That might also explain why Noah and Alison began their interviews with Jeffries speaking about "the affair" portion of their history with rue and what appeared to be distaste.  

 

That, and how their attitudes in recounting the affair served to misdirect us.

 

 

[blixie]

Aw man if Cherry set Jeffries on Noah/Allison, I'll have to love her.

[Ellaria]

But what is it about The End that proves anything? I presume that Noah isn't welcome at the Butlers' and at the Lockharts' so he needs a hotel in Montauk to accommodate him. How is that a sign of guilt?

 

I don't think that The End itself proves anything. We know that Noah lied to Det. Jeffries about The End. He knew about it - and had been there a few years prior to the interrogation.

 

Jeffries is interested in Noah's presence at The End on the night of Scotty's death. It potentially places Noah in the vicinity of where Scotty died. The reservation was made and then cancelled at a late hour (after 11PM). If Noah was on the road headed towards The End and saw Scotty walking along the road, he is provided with the opportunity to run him down.

 

As someone else has mentioned, we need to learn more about Scotty and Noah's relationship in the years following the incident at the ranch. 

[JenE4]

Why is Scotty's death being investigated as premeditated murder and not vehicular manslaughter as an accidental hit and run? Dark road near a bar, wouldn't it be more likely that some drunk idiot swerved off the road and accidentally hit Scotty? Was this ever explained? In a show with so many missing pieces, this is one of the biggest that I don't get.

[Ellaria]

Why is Scotty's death being investigated as premeditated murder and not vehicular manslaughter as an accidental hit and run? Dark road near a bar, wouldn't it be more likely that some drunk idiot swerved off the road and accidentally hit Scotty? Was this ever explained? In a show with so many missing pieces, this is one of the biggest that I don't get.

 

Good question. Noah asks Det. Jeffries a similar question in an early interrogation scene. There are questions about why Scotty was walking rather than driving and, as has been pointed out, why he seemed to be headed to The End which was a tourist club.

 

When Noah was arrested, the arresting officers did not state what he was being for. We are left to assume that it is the "murder of Scott Lockhart" but perhaps it isn't. Why not state that in true "Law & Order" fashion?

[gingerella]

From what we've seen of Scotty thus far, he is a douchebag. A hot-headed douchebag. So anyone could have wanted to kill him for any number of reasons. He so far has been one of the most uninteresting characters in this show so I really cant find even a quarter of a fuck to give about him being run over.

[scrb]

Money seems to be a big part of Helen and Noah's relationship.  Still can't believe she said that one of the things she offered Noah was a certain lifestyle.

 

Bruce certainly made a conscious decision about money (vs. love), before he hit it big.

 

Are Allison and Noah suppose to be drawn to each other without regard to money concerns?  Alison didn't seem too distressed to find that the ranch was worthless (so she wouldn't be getting any windfall) and she was willing to give the beach house to Cole just to be rid of him.  Did she know the extent to which Noah depended on the Butlers for his lifestyle?  Did she care?  She certainly wasn't enthusiastic about being cooped up in that dingy apt. for a couple of years though.

 

Noah seemed impressed by Bruce's story about choosing comfort over love and regretting it ever since.  But he seemed prepared to walk away from the lifestyle he had become accustomed to in S1E9.  Did he think he'd get alimony since it was money from Helen's family that afforded the lifestyle?  Did he expect that he'd hit it big with his second book?

 

He knew he had a big advance coming by the time he took Helen back.  Would he have still pursued Alison if Whitney didn't run off to the Lockharts?

 

I guess it would be naive to think money wouldn't play a role one way or another, given the class differences between Noah and Alison.  If he didn't have a successful book, there would be stresses to the relationship at some point.  Neither would have an especially high-paying job so maybe they'd have to move to some low cost of living area.  Money is often a big cause of arguments so they could be talking about him not making enough or her not working enough, instead of him meeting with actors for the movie adaptation of his book.

Edited December 23, 2014 by scrb

[Higgs]

Jeffries reviews the accident report. He becomes suspicious because, let's say, tread marks indicate the vehicle that hit Scotty went well off the road onto the shoulder, and Scotty's nearby parked car was not disabled. Jefferies then begins to follow the money and/or sex by interviewing people who attended the same party earlier in the night. He learns about an affair, a destroyed marriage, an underage daughter's pregnancy. Someone connected to all this, now a hot-shot author, calls him an "asshole" to his face. Passionate man, that Mr. Solloway. Passionate men, those big city writers. (Where have you gone, Norman Mailer?) Passionate men murder, and think they can get away with murder, especially if they are rich. (Such men were meat and potatoes to Columbo.) Passionate men also blurt out lies when they want to stop any further inquiries. (Noah and Alison know things we and Jeffries do not.) A lie about anything is a red flag to an investigating detective, and a luscious dessert for a DA trying to up his conviction batting average. (Throw in a $20k bribe offer and he'll have Chateau d'Yquem to wash it down.) When the receptionist at "The Edge" has a body shop to suggest, it doesn't take Sherlock to close this sucker. Will it be manslaughter or first-degree, good men and women of the (Suffolk County) jury, o ye who have been so carefully chosen in voir dire[]/i] to ensure not the slightest trace of bias against adulterous, home-wrecking, "rubber room"-sentenced, rich, big city, hot-shot writers remains on the panel? Good luck with that, Mr. Solloway. We're (okay, only a few of us) are counting on you, Alison.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Higgs

[Boundary]

 Money is often a big cause of arguments so they could be talking about him not making enough or her not working enough, instead of him meeting with actors for the movie adaptation of his book.

 

I think Noah's problem was the feeling that he was living beyond his means. Alison didn't seem to mind doing lower paid catering jobs when she could go back to nursing. I think if their situation called for them to downsize they would. Obviously next season we'll see them struggling along before the big checks come in and that conversation will probably be then, not after they've hit the big time. It'll be interesting to see the attitudes of Whitney and Martin towards the transition.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Boundary

[scrb]

Another thing, is there any way cheaters could come off sympathetic?

 

I guess if their spouses were horrible people and there weren't children and the only people who got hurt deserved to get hurt.

 

So maybe Noah and Alison never had a chance with the viewers.

[Cirien]

But you could still sell the connection. Like I don't even like Fitz and Liv on Scandal but they did manage to sell me on the connection they both had. Because we saw it objectively. I don't get that here.

[Boundary]

Another thing, is there any way cheaters could come off sympathetic?

 

Some shows obviously ask for sympathy for some characters vs others. I don't think this is one of them. When you have cheaters breaking their marriages and actually moving on together, this is hard for many people to swallow. This is not like Breaking Bad or The Sopranos because most people don't see themselves ever cooking meth or belonging to a mafia, so they can safely enjoy the ride I imagine. For this subject matter though, it is hard not put oneself in the shoes of Helen or Cole. But it's possible, I wanted Alison and Noah to make it (whilst acknowledging that they are making selfish choices). I'm more interested in what would make them do this thing rather than what carnage they leave behind. It's probably not a mainstream attitude.

 

So that's why I think I'll enjoy next season a lot more than the first one, that transition and the struggles and effects of both having success and having no money at all. Those things will go to the heart of what drove Noah to her and vice versa. What happens when the mundane strikes? How does Alison fight her demons now that she's away from Montauk and is with Noah? And how does he earn her trust considering how they started? (and vice versa). To me that is so much more interesting. There are similar themes in Whitney, Cole, Helen's stories and even attitude from friends like Phoebe and Max and how Noah/Alison react.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Boundary

[blixie]

 

Another thing, is there any way cheaters could come off sympathetic?

 

I found Allison largely sympathetic for most of S1, despite her poor choices, because of her tragic loss/grief, because there were no children involved, and because Cole is objectively more problematic in terms of his drug dealing and involving Allison in that. I understood why that marriage could be toast, through no real fault of either partner. 

 

I've pretty much found Noah to be an asshole from the very first scenes. I think it's telling again that Noah's angst, stress, ennui is entirely portrayed FIRST by his frustrations with "family" as a unit, and specifically in trying to wrangle his horrible children to get in the car. Noah is just tired of being a parent, being a responsible adult, and in marriage that "stifles" him. There is nothing sympathetic about that as reason to fuck around, as Helen pointed out, if your stifled SAY SOMETHING. If you're so unhappy and unfulfilled speak the fucking words buddy. Now I still found him interesting, and it's hard not to identify with the class/entitlement issues he had with Helen's family, and even Helen herself, but eh I can never really feel sorry for anyone who wants a red car, buys a red car, and then hates the car for being so RED.

[minimilah]

Another thing, is there any way cheaters could come off sympathetic?

I guess if their spouses were horrible people and there weren't children and the only people who got hurt deserved to get hurt.

So maybe Noah and Alison never had a chance with the viewers.

i think the show is maybe a little too realistic - no one leaves a bad marriage or a bad relationship without at least a rebound partner. treem tried to tell us these two had happy marriages which i just didn't buy. many didn't.

if noah loved helen, he would've been honest with her from the start. but they didn't have good or honest communication in their marriage (noah's silent resentment, he only confesses when he feels he'll be discovered or when the guilt is too much to handle). i feel like noah married helen because she just... you know, looked good. life with her just looked good, i'm convinced he never loved her. when he talked about his marriage to alison LOVE is the very last thing he mentions.

and alison & cole... that marriage died when gabe died. so, as a viewer, i see these two people who were so clearly unhappy and missing something for a LOOOONG time - yet they did nothing to actually try to save their marriage or leave.

someone said alison & noah are brave - and i agree with that. but the thing is, many don't. many see their escape as an act of cowardice because they didn't have the courage to leave on their own, so they used each other. they only left when they had the 2nd option waiting.

if they wanted to convince us that these two indeed had a happy marriage where there was love and BAM - met each other? things should've been directed and written very differently.

if we were shown two marriages and noah and alison who had respect for their spouses (enough respect to NOT fuck in their marital beds) - i think people would've been sympathetic. if we were shown noah and alison who tried to make it work but it simply wasn't going anywhere? people would've been more sympathetic. we were shown noah who lies to helen about the depth of his feelings for alison and fucks alison in helen's bed and we were shown alison who ruins helen's shampoo & blames cole for her son's death.

one more thing - did noah really abandon his family? he abandonded helen, but as far as i understood - he takes care of his kids. how did he abandoned them? i doubt he just left and never called or never visited them.

Edited December 24, 2014 by minimilah

[minimilah]

But it's possible, I wanted Alison and Noah to make it (whilst acknowledging that they are making selfish choices). I'm more interested in what would make them do this thing rather than what carnage they leave behind. It's probably not a mainstream attitude.

me too. i'm interested in alison and noah. i like helen and cole but not really interested in their happily ever after. i want them to get one, yes... but give me alison and noah, that's where my focus is.

ALSO - i agree with you, people are afraid because this can happen in their lives, too. the show is so realistic that makes many feeling very uncomfortable.

i think this is the worst that can happen - seeing your partner cheat on you and dump you and then marry and have kids and live happily with the affair partner.

[Higgs]

Noah and Alison make a reservation to spend the night after the party at "The End", to relive their tryst with destiny. (Sorry, Jawaharlal, I couldn't resist.)

Scotty has arranged a drug sale with a tourist at "The End". On the road leading to the club, Scotty pulls off onto the shoulder, but, as fate would have it, not far enough. He gets out to pee/vomit/masturbate, any of which could have caused the lurching body spasm that discombobulated the somewhat inebriated driver of the oncoming car.

The Solloway/Butler vehicle (Exhibit C, your honor) swerves, and not only strikes and kills Scotty in his last moment of relief on this Earth, but glances off his parked car.

N&A immediately cancel their reservation, and head back to NYC, their car having suffered only minor damage.

When the accident is discovered, the tow truck driver comes out to retrieve Scotty's car.

Jeffries checks out the tow/body shop, arranges for the its driver to walk past just as Noah's leaving the police station. Noah, in a predictable panic imagining some tell-tale evidence had been spotted at the point of impact on Scotty's car, offers an incriminating bribe.

Noah is arrested for vehicular manslaughter, only, absent a (fresh) motive for murder.

When the news of the arrest gets out, the good people of Montauk suspect pre-meditation, and anonymous calls to Suffolk County Police ultimately reveal the Lockhart drug-dealing.

And now the fun begins.

Alison, regardless if she was the driver, has to decide whether or not she will take the fall, on the grounds she will get off much easier, due to her connection to the community, her tragedy, and her current motherhood. Oh, and let's not forget her love for Noah.

Noah has to decide how far he'll go in letting Alison endanger herself in an effort to protect him.

Helen, along with her parents, has to decide how much money she should kick in for Dershowitz-level lawyering/jury tampering/witness bribing/etc. to protect her children's father from Attica.

Cole has to decide how far he'll go to protect Alison from being associated with the drug-dealing.

Noah's publisher has to decide how big a party to throw now that Noah's scandal will vastly increase book sales and his impending incarceration will give him the time and solitude he has shown he so badly needs in order to create anything worth reading.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.*

*But as anyone can see from the editing time, I haven't been sticking to it. Geez Louise (pace Sally Draper), you can't trust anyone these days to keep their promises or honor their vows. Something to think about, eh Noah?

Edited December 25, 2014 by Higgs

[JenE4]

^But I assume that the Solloway/Butler car couldn't have been driven back to the city that night. Noah wouldn't have given the auto shop guy $20,000 if he DIDN'T fix the damage from striking Scotty. But if they also canceled staying at The End, where did they stay that night? I suppose they could have taken a train back, but I tend to think that car being out of commission, lying about taking the car home that night, and canceling the hotel reservation = another reveal/attempted cover-up to come. Alison will have to bribe/plead/sleep with(?!?) whoever let them stay with them and knows they had no car to go back to the city to keep her promise to Noah of getting him out of this.

[Boundary]

I still don't understand how staying at The End (or not) signifies guilt or evidence of some kind. They could be guilty and still stay overnight at the hotel. Placing them at the scene shouldn't be difficult since Alison has admitted that they went to the wedding in Montauk. For Noah it's more damaging that he was caught bribing that guy, I mean c'mon how stupid was that? It taints everything else; still, a decent lawyer can fight off the charges. I'm beginning to properly suspect that Whitney's involved, Noah will have had a few years to come to terms with her relationship with Scotty. So he didn't go all road rage on him but Scotty was on the way to The End with Whitney and something stupid happened and she called Noah. This way it makes Alison conflicted, she can't get Noah off the hook without throwing Whitney under the bus.

[Bcharmer]

The cancelled reservation was under Solloway, but could it be possible that Whitney made the reservation for her and Scotty? 

[JenE4]

The cancelled reservation was under Solloway, but could it be possible that Whitney made the reservation for her and Scotty?

Awesome idea! Yes, he didn't ask Noah Solloway, just Solloway. Could have even been Helen if she didn't change her name after the divorce.

[Bcharmer]

Not sure if The End would have required a credit card number at the time of the reservation (most places do), but couldn't the detective get that info, too, if he had thought of it? He just assumed it was Noah, and it still might be, but it does leave room for doubt.

[truthaboutluv]

Just recently binge watched this show. I don't have any major speculations per se but I will say the thing that stood out to me the most from the season finale was Alison's line to Noah to trust her, followed by "you believe me right..." We were supposed to believe at the end those two were married with a kid so effectively selling this soulmates bullshit. And yet she has to say to the husband she "loves" so much, who supposedly "loves" her so much to trust her and then further ask him if he believes her? Okay then... Of course I guess when your relationship begins as these two's relationship did maybe trust is a hard thing to achieve no matter how "in love" they claim to be.

 

I also read the entire page and am totally rooting for a Cole/Phoebe pairing. I thought that as soon as I saw her in the finale. The actress was gorgeous, the character seems sweet and happy and after the soul sucking ball of misery and torture that was Alison to Cole, that guy needs and deserves a beautiful, sweet woman to have amazing sex with. And her being Alison's friend should mean shit being that Alison cheated on Cole TWICE, one of those being Oscar of all people. 

[Boundary]

Just recently binge watched this show. I don't have any major speculations per se but I will say the thing that stood out to me the most from the season finale was Alison's line to Noah to trust her, followed by "you believe me right..." We were supposed to believe at the end those two were married with a kid so effectively selling this soulmates bullshit. 

 

Well, love is a complicated concept, especially if there are secrets involved. The first question to ask is, what exactly happened and does Noah know what Alison knows? If not, then the "you believe me, right?" becomes a matter of trust between them, the nature of their relationship and those kinds of things I suspect they will explore in season 2. If Noah and Alison are both equally in on the secret, then that statement from Alison simply equates to "hang in there, I'll get you out." Either way, the "soulmates bullshit" does not preclude that relationship from having problems, arguments, misunderstandings, etc. All it means, from the show perspective, is that Noah and Alison will choose each other if given a choice.

 

I, for one, think it'll be more fun watching them deal with the consequences of them cheating on their respective spouses, how will they be able to trust each other? What will the power dynamic be like early on in that relationship, will Noah still feel like "he's a grown man, don't tell what to do" and if so how will Alison respond to that? Alison has been struggling financially for a long time, how will having money affect her and will that change Noah's attitude to her? Before she gets her own kid, she'll have to become part of Noah's kids' lives - especially the youngest two - so how will that go, considering her own demons? Related to that, her relationship with Helen will be particularly strained and with Whitney it be will be weird (in Noah's pov Whitney briefly considered her a friend). All this (and more, I'm sure) just highlights how Noah and Alison being considered soulmates does not automatically become a negative thing. At least not for me.

[truthaboutluv]

Either way, the "soulmates bullshit" does not preclude that relationship from having problems, arguments, misunderstandings, etc.

 

 

Not saying it does or should. No one is perfect and so by that token, no relationship is perfect. That being said, and this is just my view of love and relationships, if I am to believe that two people are "soul mates", "meant to be", are completely and utterly and madly in love, then trust should be a fundamental element of that. Again, this is just my view of relationships and maybe some don't agree but I don't see how one can claim to have amazing, forever and ever love without trust. To me that's not love, it's attraction, it's passion but not love which fits perfectly with how I viewed Noah and Alison this whole season. I saw a lot of gratuitous sex but not love and that line just drove it home for me.

 

I am supposed to believe that these were two people who were just absolutely meant for each other to the point that their love was so powerful and intense that it was worth all the ugliness and destruction that came with their being together, it was worth Noah walking out on his wife and four kids, disrupting his kids' life because they were "soulmates", had never felt happiness like they had with each other. And yet, Alison has to say to Noah "you believe me right..." when he's being taken away by police officers?

 

Yes couples have disagreements and issues but that's not disagreements and issues, that's questioning the honesty and truthfulness of the woman he is married to when he's being arrested and her having to reassure him. Seriously, how many wives would say to their husband being arrested "you believe me right that I'll get you out..." Like that's just a foregone conclusion, especially for two people madly and utterly and completely in love right...and supposedly happily married in their fancy apartment with their precious kid.  

Edited January 7, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Higgs]

...if I am to believe that two people are "soul mates"...

One is NOT supposed to believe Alison and Noah are "soul mates". No one associated with the show, no character in the show, and no commenter on this board sympathetic to the couple, has ever, to my knowledge, suggested any such thing, even implicitly. The notion is a complete straw-man. Like all other couples "in love", Alison and Noah will love each other forever or until they don't, whichever comes first.

Alison left both Cole and Noah standing at the train station. When she returned from her retreat with Athena, she offered Cole the house and left him cold, without Noah in the picture. That was selflessness and courage enough. Their marriage ended solely due to their shared tragedy. There is no blame to go around.

The Helen/Noah marriage ended because of Helen's cluelessness and/or Noah's cowardice. There is plenty of blame to go around. Let's take a look at the way their marriage died, not with a bang, but a whimper.

H: "But I can change. I can change. And I have been working with Dr. Gunderson two times a week, and I have new tools now."

......

H: "I'm gonna press charges. You can join me or not."

N: "Did you just change in the bathroom?"

H: "Yeah."

N: "Why?"

H: "I don't know, Noah."

Did Helen mean that she recognized some specific aspect of her behavior needed to change (e.g., controlling, ignoring, manipulating), or that she would do whatever Noah asked, in general? If the latter, then Noah can be blamed for not having the intelligence/courage to speak up. If the former, Helen's prosecuting Scotty against Noah's wishes, and especially without further discussion, represented a relapse so severe that Noah can be forgiven for wanting to give up.

By not fleshing out the meaning behind "I can change", which could have easily been done with a simple follow-up sentence, the writers abrogated their responsibility to provide the key psychological dynamics at the nexus of the plot.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Higgs

[truthaboutluv]

I may be wrong but I was under the impression the writers did, in some media interview, refer to Noah and Alison as soulmates or at the least the characters see themselves as each other's soulmates. But honestly, the soulmates thing is really irrelevant to my key point which still stands. That I find it fascinating that two people who are seemingly happily married and in love and apparently had to be with each other so much, the consequences of it be damned, that there is even a hint of question and distrust between them as he gets carted off to jail. I find that completely fascinating. I am also not sure what the rest of the comment about the two marriages have to do with my comment to be perfectly honest. I will say though that I disagree that there is not blame to go around with the demise of these two marriages.

 

Yes, ultimately the key impetus for the end of Alison and Cole's marriage was their shared tragedy but as I said in another thread with regard to the the notion that it took courage for her and Noah to walk away from their unhappiness, the real bravery would have been doing it before fucking another person in each of their bed they shared with their spouse. Sure Alison may have made a goodwill gesture with the house and was away from Noah when she finally told Cole it was over but it came after she banged not just one but two men that wasn't her husband and she still took time to basically tell him she blamed him for their son's death. So yeah, sorry, I think there is more than enough blame to be placed on her.

 

As for Noah and Helen, ymmv but I cannot buy that Helen's seemingly unyielding decision to press charges against an almost 30 year old guy who was not just diddling but got her 16 year old pregnant was such a huge relapse in Noah's eyes that it effectively killed the relationship. Noah was already out the door when he was sexing Alison all over the place and then proceeded to bang every woman he met during the separation and the only reason he entertained Helen in my opinion is because Alison was unavailable. As soon as she was back in the picture he would have gone right back, whatever Helen did or did not do be damned. And in my opinion, I saw Helen's "I can change" comment as nothing more than a woman who was effectively losing her marriage and seeing her life falling apart and wanting to salvage it any way she could.

 

It's a sad, sad reality, but most people when cheated on, do question and wonder what it was they could have done, what was wrong with them, was it their fault in some way even though, as a person who is all about people owning their actions, I think it's bullshit to excuse anyone's cheating as a failure on their partner. But the reality is people do that and of course Helen wasn't perfect, she's human. So she likely did the "what did I do wrong that maybe led to his pulling away and finding something he couldn't find it me with her..." So that's the only thing I took her comment as but in no way did I see it as absolving Noah of any responsibility and blame. Of course I loathe Noah's character and I find him nothing more than a selfish, whiny and weak asshole. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Boundary]

Again, this is just my view of relationships and maybe some don't agree but I don't see how one can claim to have amazing, forever and ever love without trust. To me that's not love, it's attraction, it's passion but not love which fits perfectly with how I viewed Noah and Alison this whole season. I saw a lot of gratuitous sex but not love and that line just drove it home for me.

 

There's a gap between the kitchen scene and the NY apartment scene. We don't know what the writers will fill that gap with. What looks like distrust right now can easily sound innocuous afterwards. The hint of mistrust in both those interpretation is not, in my view, strong enough to discard the love they have confessed to each other.  When the knock came on the door, Alison leisurely asked "who is it?" and when Detective Jeffries answered, there was this look that came on both their faces. That look refers to something we haven't been told about yet and it makes them both seem guilty of something. So in a case like that, asking each other to keep the faith would be natural, no?

 

That I find it fascinating that two people who are seemingly happily married and in love and apparently had to be with each other so much, the consequences of it be damned, that there is even a hint of question and distrust between them as he gets carted off to jail.

 

Love or attraction is usually fairly instant (I would think) but trust has to be earned over a period of time. After some 3 years (the prevailing timeline assumption on this board) I'd guess that Noah and Alison would've sorted out their trust issues. That's why I don't think there're trust issues in that scene. Still, the notion that mistrust automatically implies lack of love is a flawed one. People can love each other and still be working on trust issues - love dies only when one gives up on it. I agree with you that trust is important, though; I think it's what generally sustains a relationship/marriage long term (and needs to be continuously cultivated). But all this is theoretical. You say that you didn't see love throughout the season, only lust, and that the last scene means they don't trust each other. I hold the opposite view, I believe that all the main characters are grey, that their situation is more nuanced - so that gives me room to make the interpretation I have stated. More of that later.

 

... the only reason he entertained Helen in my opinion is because Alison was unavailable. As soon as she was back in the picture he would have gone right back, whatever Helen did or did not do be damned. 

 

 

I agree. Noah and Helen's marriage was over a while ago and him falling in love with Alison effectively shut the door. The reason Noah went back to Helen was cowardice. I actually agreed with Helen when she said that he chose her for a reason and "you never gave me a chance to change." All true. Noah should've stuck to his guns, the way Alison did with Cole, but he was weak. That reconciliation would've never worked, and shouldn't have happened because as soon as Alison became available Noah went back. It's the same flaw in his character that allowed him to fester unhappily in his marriage but I understand it somehow. Change for change's sake is hard to justify sometimes.

 

 

Yes, ultimately the key impetus for the end of Alison and Cole's marriage was their shared tragedy but as I said in another thread with regard to the the notion that it took courage for her and Noah to walk away from their unhappiness, the real bravery would have been doing it before fucking another person in each of their bed they shared with their spouse. 

 

 

Here's where my moral relativism comes into play. On Mad Men, I found Don Draper's treatment of Betty really reprehensible. It came to a point whereby he really was devaluing the marriage and degrading her as a person. I don't think Noah went that far with Helen. So what's the difference? Well, I was the one who said both Noah and Alison were brave to leave their marriages. That was because it was always going to be easier to sneak around than face the consequences head on. That's where the notion of bravery or courage came from. Don was not brave, he had to be kicked out by Betty. Noah was kicked out mainly because Helen was pissed off, what else was she supposed to do? Noah had to know that was how she would react but he confessed nevertheless, twice, the last confession being more truthful.

 

In those 8 weeks in Montauk, I don't think Alison or Noah thought their affair was permanent. It always had an expiry date, i.e. when Noah's family returned to Brooklyn. But as that end date approached, Noah started thinking longer term, until the drug dealing stopped those plans. Alison, for her part, never asked Noah for an extension or that he leave his wife, not until Noah ended it. It's only when they met each other again and exchanged "I love you"s that the dynamic changed. As far as I'm concerned, that was the day they should've decided to leave their spouses because anything after that is simply degrading Cole and Helen. I can hear most people reading this and groaning. It's ok to be noble and ask for a divorce as soon as a marriage is unsatisfactory but that's not going to happen, most times anyway. Even couples who part by mutual consent would still need a push, or some motivation to convince them, or another person to reassure them that it's time. Noah wasn't going to leave Helen if Alison was just a fling, it wasn't going to be worth it. But once he'd fallen for her and confirming verbally that she also felt the same way, then it was time. Staying on after that would mean entering the Don Draper territory.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Boundary

[Higgs]

The reason Noah went back to Alison was not cowardice, it was hope, the hope that the radically altered circumstances inherent in the success of his second novel, as they related to his finally achieving a psychological balance of power in the marriage (visually symbolized in his jarring assumption of a dominant position in the ensuing sex scene, with Helen exquisitly turned on), would enable him to stay the course. Noah did not know anything about Alison's availability at that time; he never attempted to contact her, even as he likely thought of her not just "every fucking day", but every fucking conscious minute. It was Helen's preemptive decision to go after Scotty, without discussion, and without considering Whitney's vehement objections, that sealed the marriage's doom. ( I expect Mrs. Butler to sue Dr. Gunderson for malpractice.)

When, for apparently the first time ever, and only after she terminated the marriage, Alison voiced her anger at Cole for not paying sufficient attention to Gabriel in the water, and Cole retaliated by blaming Alison for not taking Gabriel to the hospital, it was not meant to reflect on either character individually, but on the catastrophic effect that their joint suppression of mutual resentment had had on their relationship.

As the prison warden says in "Cool Hand Luke", what we have here in both marriages is "a failure to communicate".

Edited January 8, 2015 by Higgs

[Boundary]

When, for apparently the first time ever, and only after she terminated the marriage, Alison voiced her anger at Cole for not paying sufficient attention to Gabriel in the water, and Cole retaliated by blaming Alison for not taking Gabriel to the hospital, it was not meant to reflect on either character individually, but on the catastrophic effect that their joint suppression of mutual resentment had had on their relationship.

 

I did a rewatch recently and I caught this argument, having missed it the first time. It was interrupted and lasted 2 seconds but those 2 seconds epitomised the reasons why that marriage broke down. I suppose they never had that argument before but if each genuinely blamed the other for Gabriel's death, then there was never a hope for their marriage. But Alison, after dealing with that accusation from Cherry four months earlier, was able to handle it this time.

 

The reason Noah went back to Alison was not cowardice ...

 

Don't know if that was a reply to me but I was talking about Noah going back to Helen, albeit for a day (which was indeed an act of cowardice). Noah going back to Alison was sealed the second Cole revealed that Alison wouldn't take him back. 

Edited January 9, 2015 by Boundary

[Higgs]

Don't know if that was a reply to me but I was talking about Noah going back to Helen, albeit for a day (which was indeed an act of cowardice). Noah going back to Alison was sealed the second Cole revealed that Alison wouldn't take him back.

Sorry, Boundary, re "cowardice", I meant Helen. I don't understand why you think it so.

Just as the detective doesn't believe in "accidents" when a mangled corpse is involved, I am hesitant to believe in "sealed" when a torn heart is. Too much flux, uncertainty, fear, and impulsive spontaneity are at play. The last thing Noah knew about Alison is thet she walked away from him AND Cole at the train station. The last thing Alison knew about Noah is that he had left Helen (as he had dissembled). Yet not only had neither contacted the other in the four months following, but Noah declined her cell call even after Helen had reverted to type (and beyond, by not undressing in front of him). If Whitney's bolting hadn't led to the ensuing dining room showdown, would Noah have eventually contacted Alison or would Alison have reached out to Noah after she left Cole? I believe both were highly probable, but not certain, and with Noah the more likely to call first.

[Boundary]

It was cowardice in the sense that he knew he shouldn't have gone back to Helen. That same day, I believe, his agent had asked him if he missed his wife. His response, while thinking of Alison, was "not yet". Then he meets his wife, who gives him valid points about how she wasn't given a chance and that she has changed. Noah caves in and stays. Compare that to Alison, after Cole offers to go to another therapist and work on the marriage, she stands her ground and insists that the marriage is over.

 

If Whitney's bolting hadn't led to the ensuing dining room showdown, would Noah have eventually contacted Alison or would Alison have reached out to Noah after she left Cole? 

 

 

Simple answer, probably not. Both knew their marriages were over sometime ago but crossed wires make interesting drama (if it doesn't involve you). But I'll say that those 4 months without communication was good for them - that confusion over what the tiny apartment meant was not a good start to a proper relationship. There was a risk those 4 months could become a permanent rift and resolving that situation became a chicken and egg scenario: Noah won't call her unless he knows she's chosen him, and she won't go back to him unless she knows she's his priority. Whitney solved that particular conundrum for them.

 

After 4 months he was still pissed that she left him at the station and hadn't contacted him since. To call out of the blue doesn't make it better. So he wasn't going to answer. But he was unwittingly following Max's advice: wait, if it's real. She never intended to call him, she wanted to be alone. That stalemate would doom any relationship. Noah would've gone back to an unsatisfactory marriage, she would have become single and eventually met some decent guy. That's how it works, you never get a second shot. Normally.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Boundary

[Higgs]

(1) It was cowardice in the sense that he knew he shouldn't have gone back to Helen. That same day, I believe, his agent had asked him if he missed his wife. His response, while thinking of Alison, was "not yet". Then he meets his wife, who gives him valid points about how she wasn't given a chance and that she has changed. Noah curves in and stays.

(2) Compare that to Alison, after Cole offers to go to another therapist and work on the marriage, she stands her ground and insists that the marriage is over.

(3) After 4 months he was still pissed that she left him at the station and hadn't contacted him since. To call out of the blue doesn't make it better. So he wasn't going to answer. But he was unwittingly following Max's advice: wait, if it's real. She never intended to call him, she wanted to be alone. That stalemate would doom any relationship. Noah would've gone back to an unsatisfactory marriage, she would have become single and eventually met some decent guy. That's how it works, you never get a second shot. Normally.

(1) Divorce = personal failure, regardless of how or why, or even if it's only in the initial choice of mate. That Noah thinks first of Alison doesn't mean he doesn't care for Helen. With the apparent success of his novel, and all the money and fame it will bring him, he hopes it will produce a change in the power balance in his marriage and enable him to rescue it, and with that himself, Helen, and the children.

(2) Noah's marital situation and psychology cannot be compared to Alison's. They are asymmetric.

(3) I never considered any of that, yet I think it a completely valid possibility. It was a real eye-opener for me.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Higgs

[Boundary]

(1) Divorce = personal failure, regardless of how or why, or even if it's only in the initial choice of mate. That Noah thinks first of Alison doesn't mean he doesn't care for Helen. With the apparent success of his novel, and all the money and fame it will bring him, he hopes it will produce a change in the power balance in his marriage and enable him to rescue it, and with that himself, Helen, and the children.

(2) Noah's marital situation and psychology cannot be compared to Alison's. They are asymmetric.

(3) I never considered any of that, yet I think it a completely valid possibility. It was a real eye-opener for me.

 

(1) You really think that the money made such a huge difference? I know money always helps but you know what I'm saying. I think it would've helped change the way Helen sees him but it wouldn't have changed the fact that he'd fallen in love with someone else. That's what the second confession was about, watch the episode again when Helen kicks him out: he looks relieved. Admittedly, in my Alison/Noah are doomed scenario in (3), the money would have greased Helen's attitude. It would not really have been necessary for the scenario that ended up playing out i.e. Alison would've gladly suffered that little Brooklyn apartment if Noah permanently moved in with her. They both have humble beginnings; I think Sarah Treem rewarded them too early, I would've loved to see them struggle along for a while next season.

 

(2) The psychology was different indeed; Alison's marriage's demise can be clearly plotted out. She was lonely, couldn't stand Cole and had nothing to lose. But when she found self worth, through Noah and the sojourn with Athena, she began to evaluate how much that marriage was hurting her. That's why she was firm with Cole and honest, despite being hurtful. Noah couldn't stand to be that frank with Helen, he would have sacrificed his happiness because he had a lot to lose. He had kids.  So if the choice was between a compromise marriage and a single middle aged life, I can understand his choice (so maybe I was a bit harsh with the cowardice thing). But when the choice became Helen vs Alison, now that was easy for him. 

Edited January 10, 2015 by Boundary

[Higgs]

Yes, Noah was relieved when Helen threw him out, because it absolved him from having to choose. There was his "cowardice".

By far the most significant effect of Noah's new-found success was on his own psyche. It gave him the grounds to hope that, despite being in love with Alison, he could "stick it out" with Helen, in service of his pride and parental responsibilities. Happiness can come in many forms*, and the money gave Noah the courage to now choose between two roads that diverged in a Brooklyn wood.

Money is power, and power is, as famously claimed by that well-known war criminal Henry Kissinger, an aphrodisiac. Noah would have had good reason to believe that, as a successful novelist who could swim 50 laps (and looked like it), he was not limited to a choice "between a compromise marriage and a single middle aged life", but that he could have had half the female faculty at the top liberal arts colleges in the Northeast, and that's not including the straight, unmarried women. (So I'm jealous; sue me.)

*http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2015/01/09/best-friends-forever/

Edited January 11, 2015 by Higgs

[circe221]

Not sure if this is the right place for this, and I am way late to the show, but...

I noticed in the opening sequence that in the surf there is a hook - like Captain Hook's hook. 

Wondering how the story of Peter Pan (which is referenced several times during the show) factors in to the overall plot.