S03.E06: The Jewel of the North

[taanja]

15 hours ago, SusanwatchingTV said:

Well, yes, but that's the point.  Women often took jobs where they were the cook/nanny/housekeeper in a home for room, board, and a bit of money.  That's the way it often was arranged from what I've read. 

I keep coming back to the same point.  William's angst over her cooking doesn't make sense.  A woman in her social position would never be expected to cook all her own meals, even with kids.  OTOH, his upset over her putting herself in constant danger would be understandable.  Especially if she was going to be the mother of his children, for instance.

Especially since it's not an issue with Arabella -- who clearly does NOT do her own cooking.

it's always been William's concern for Eliza and her safety that endeared me to the character in the first place.

I just figure the Eliza is a terrible cook is like the running joke within the show that Eliza is a female private detective and everyone acts surprised!!!

[chaifan]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:06 PM, SusanwatchingTV said:

I keep coming back to the same point.  William's angst over her cooking doesn't make sense.  A woman in her social position would never be expected to cook all her own meals, even with kids.  OTOH, his upset over her putting herself in constant danger would be understandable.  Especially if she was going to be the mother of his children, for instance.

I'm not an expert on those times, but I think that upper class women (as girls) were taught how how to do domestic things - cook, sew, play an instrument, even if they wouldn't be expected to actually to do those things.  So the fact that Eliza doesn't know how to cook is the issue, not that she actually doesn't cook for herself.  That's just my take on it.

 

[Driad]

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

I think that upper class women (as girls) were taught how how to do domestic things - cook, sew, play an instrument, even if they wouldn't be expected to actually to do those things. 

Later time and higher class, but IIRC on Downton Abbey, one of the daughters went to the kitchen and wanted to cook something or learn how, much to the consternation of the kitchen staff.

[Dowel Jones]

Several First Ladies have commented that they have gone into the WH kitchen at night, just to make some food for a snack, and they were promptly told to "Git!"

[Driad]

Why does Eliza wear her hair in such an elaborate style? She doesn't wear evening gowns when other women do, so why not a simpler hair style? At first I guessed that Ivy did Eliza's hair, but it looks the same when Ivy is away. Maybe Eliza learned how to do that style and finds it easier to do it that way.

[pezgirl7]

9 hours ago, Driad said:

Why does Eliza wear her hair in such an elaborate style?

Practical answer: I think it’s just because the actress has short hair and wears extensions instead of a wig, so it’s easier to blend the real hair when it’s in a more complex up-do. 

[Driad]

14 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

I think it’s just because the actress has short hair

Thank you, that makes sense from a production standpoint (i.e. Doylist).  But I was curious about the character Eliza's choice (i.e. Watsonian).

[Door County Cherry]

She probably doesn't do her hair every day.  She could go with a simpler style but the braids likely serve a purpose and they'll last a while. 

[taanja]

On 2/26/2023 at 12:49 PM, Driad said:

Why does Eliza wear her hair in such an elaborate style? She doesn't wear evening gowns when other women do, so why not a simpler hair style? At first I guessed that Ivy did Eliza's hair, but it looks the same when Ivy is away. Maybe Eliza learned how to do that style and finds it easier to do it that way.

I notice Eliza's perfectly coifed hair every ep! It's like watching old movies -- the women's hair never move-- even when the wind blows!

[Nolefan]

I am confused as to why everyone seems to think that William wants a traditional Victorian wife after he courted Arabella? I think it was shown that Arabella is actually very similar to Eliza—both women own & run a struggling business that they refuse to give up. Arabella was even shown as refusing to give up her financially strapped business & have her rich mother support her. William knew this yet still courted her. William never told Arabella she’d have to give up work to be with him and there was proof in the show that Arabella wasn’t going to willingly give up her work. Also, Arabella was not cooking—she had a staff cooking for her—and William was perfectly fine with it. Henry had Ivy (& Kitty). So William seems to be in a position to employ a maid/cook if he was married. So, why would Eliza be expected to cook & clean? The only difference between Eliza & Arabella was that Arabella made time in her busy schedule for William, which Eliza did not—hence Arabella’s observation about Eliza will never been emotionally available to William. So, I disagree with everyone who thinks William would not accept Eliza working if they were married & him wanting a wife who stays home to cook and clean. Everything about William’s relationship with Arabella definitely showed this is not true. And William’s working relationship with Eliza has certainly grown where he treats Eliza as an equal.   

[tv echo]

I confess to being partly influenced by reading interviews given by the show's creator/showrunner Rachael New, like this one...

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/specialfeatures/interview-with-miss-scarlet-and-the-dukes-rachael-new-romance-rivals-and-revelations/

Quote

He [William] desperately wants this to work with Arabella. She would make him probably quite happy. She would give him the home that he would want. She would cook, she’s a great cook. If you put on paper what Arabella would be like as a wife, and what Eliza would be as a wife, [Arabella] would probably be the one to give him that traditional life that a 19th century man would want.

 

Perhaps the difference between Arabella and Eliza is what they would each be willing to give up in order to marry (or in Arabella's case, marry again).

From what I understand, in Victorian England, women's rights were very limited. Single women or widows could own property. But, once they married, all of their property, possessions and income passed to their husband. The wife was no longer considered a separate person but someone under the complete supervision of her husband. Her body was also considered under her husband's control, and he could rape or beat her without fearing prosecution. Children were also considered his property. (Source) Their roles were also sharply defined. Husbands left to go to work, while wives stayed home to oversee domestic duties (which could often be done by servants) and take care of the children. (Source)

It is likely that, when Arabella's husband was alive, he owned and ran the restaurant, while Arabella primarily managed the household and, at most, had a limited role in running the restaurant. If she married William, the restaurant would again go to her new husband. Arabella seems more willing to center her life around William.

In contrast, Eliza has a passion for being a private detective. If she got married, anything she owned would go to her husband. Anything she did would be legally subject to what her husband allowed. I think that this is why she's afraid to get involved with William. Even if he was the most understanding and decent husband in the world, she would lose a lot of her independence.  Any career or business she sought to create for herself would likely take a back seat to his career. Also, they both still have to live and work in Victorian England, and what the wife does would also reflect on the husband in his professional life. Hopefully, they'll figure it out.

Edited March 6, 2023 by tv echo

[Nolefan]

On 3/6/2023 at 10:26 AM, tv echo said:

I confess to being partly influenced by reading interviews given by the show's creator/showrunner Rachael New, like this one...

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/specialfeatures/interview-with-miss-scarlet-and-the-dukes-rachael-new-romance-rivals-and-revelations/

 

Perhaps the difference between Arabella and Eliza is what they would each be willing to give up in order to marry (or in Arabella's case, marry again).

From what I understand, in Victorian England, women's rights were very limited. Single women or widows could own property. But, once they married, all of their property, possessions and income passed to their husband. The wife was no longer considered a separate person but someone under the complete supervision of her husband. Her body was also considered under her husband's control, and he could rape or beat her without fearing prosecution. Children were also considered his property. (Source) Their roles were also sharply defined. Husbands left to go to work, while wives stayed home to oversee domestic duties (which could often be done by servants) and take care of the children. (Source)

It is likely that, when Arabella's husband was alive, he owned and ran the restaurant, while Arabella primarily managed the household and, at most, had a limited role in running the restaurant. If she married William, the restaurant would again go to her new husband. Arabella seems more willing to center her life around William.

In contrast, Eliza has a passion for being a private detective. If she got married, anything she owned would go to her husband. Anything she did would be legally subject to what her husband allowed. I think that this is why she's afraid to get involved with William. Even if he was the most understanding and decent husband in the world, she would lose a lot of her independence.  Any career or business she sought to create for herself would likely take a back seat to his career. Also, they both still have to live and work in Victorian England, and what the wife does would also reflect on the husband in his professional life. Hopefully, they'll figure it out.

The showrunner totally confuses me when she says that Arabella would cook and that she’s a great cook. That definitely wasn’t shown onscreen—her chef did all the cooking. Also, she says William desperately wanted things to work with Arabella, yet onscreen it was shown that he forgets about their dinner dates & when he was with Arabella he constantly talked about Eliza. There was absolutely nothing shown onscreen that Arabella intended to give up running her business. If the showrunner intended to convey these things, she utterly failed in my opinion. 
 

The actor who portrays William, Stuart Martin, said in the PBS podcast that  William was attracted to Arabella because of her independent spirit—like Eliza—but Eliza just wasn’t emotionally available like Arabella. So his views of his character seem to conflict with the showrunner’s idea that William wants a traditional Victorian wife. Personally, I saw things the way Stuart Martin did. 

[chaifan]

I see William's attraction to Arabella attributed mostly to the fact that Arabella doted on him.  Yes, she doted on him with food other people cooked, but she doted on him nevertheless.  Eliza doesn't dote.  The closest she came was to baking him that cake and bringing it to his office, but that was mostly prompted by jealousy of Arabella.  I think that's the "emotionally availability" that @Nolefan cited above.  Heck, I think from a Victorian viewpoint, Arabella was hurling herself at William as hard as possible, but kept running into walls with him talking about Eliza all the time.  My personal impression of Arabella was that she'd be willing to stay home and be a traditional wife as soon as she could marry someone who would afford her the chance.  Was William that guy?  Maybe between William's status and her mother's money, yeah, she could do that.  But in that sense, she was more "traditional" than Eliza. 

Going into Season 3, I think the "will they or won't they" has run it's course.  Just let the two start courting officially, have their lovers spats, and still respect each other professionally.  I know, it's not going to happen.  I think the most they'll ever give us is a kiss, and maybe a chaste proposal, in the last 5 minutes of the series. 

 

[Nolefan]

16 hours ago, chaifan said:

I see William's attraction to Arabella attributed mostly to the fact that Arabella doted on him.  Yes, she doted on him with food other people cooked, but she doted on him nevertheless.  Eliza doesn't dote.  The closest she came was to baking him that cake and bringing it to his office, but that was mostly prompted by jealousy of Arabella.  I think that's the "emotionally availability" that @Nolefan cited above.  Heck, I think from a Victorian viewpoint, Arabella was hurling herself at William as hard as possible, but kept running into walls with him talking about Eliza all the time.  My personal impression of Arabella was that she'd be willing to stay home and be a traditional wife as soon as she could marry someone who would afford her the chance.  Was William that guy?  Maybe between William's status and her mother's money, yeah, she could do that.  But in that sense, she was more "traditional" than Eliza. 

Going into Season 3, I think the "will they or won't they" has run it's course.  Just let the two start courting officially, have their lovers spats, and still respect each other professionally.  I know, it's not going to happen.  I think the most they'll ever give us is a kiss, and maybe a chaste proposal, in the last 5 minutes of the series. 

 

Yes, Arabella doted on William—she made time for him & asked about his day (was emotionally available) unlike Eliza, who totally forgot about their monthly dinner dates & as pointed out in episodes in S2 vented about her day/struggles but often shut William down when talking about his frustrations at work.
 

I totally disagree about Arabella giving up her career at the restaurant for William. Her mother said that she would have supported Arabella, but instead Arabella went through the humiliation of asking for a loan to keep her restaurant afloat. Arabella was shown as someone who very much cared about appearances so this was a big thing for her to do. There was absolutely nothing showing Arabella was going to become a traditional wife if she married William. If the show wanted to establish this, then it should’ve had William go for a traditional Victorian housewife type character. It did not—instead having William go for a character with similar ambitions & character traits as Eliza.  As Stuart Martin said, William is attracted to independent-spirited women, which I think shows that a Eliza & William relationship of equals is possible. 

Totally agree the will-they, won’t they needs to end. The show is just treading water when it comes to Eliza—there’s been no growth in Eliza’s character on a personal level. Eliza is almost 30 years old, yet is a teenager when it comes to her personal life. It is really becoming cringy at this point & starting to make it impossible for me to take her seriously in her professional life. It’s past time for her to have an adult relationship with William. 

[SusanwatchingTV]

3 hours ago, Nolefan said:

Yes, Arabella doted on William—she made time for him & asked about his day (was emotionally available) unlike Eliza, who totally forgot about their monthly dinner dates & as pointed out in episodes in S2 vented about her day/struggles but often shut William down when talking about his frustrations at work.
 

I totally disagree about Arabella giving up her career at the restaurant for William. Her mother said that she would have supported Arabella, but instead Arabella went through the humiliation of asking for a loan to keep her restaurant afloat. Arabella was shown as someone who very much cared about appearances so this was a big thing for her to do. There was absolutely nothing showing Arabella was going to become a traditional wife if she married William. If the show wanted to establish this, then it should’ve had William go for a traditional Victorian housewife type character. It did not—instead having William go for a character with similar ambitions & character traits as Eliza.  As Stuart Martin said, William is attracted to independent-spirited women, which I think shows that a Eliza & William relationship of equals is possible. 

Totally agree the will-they, won’t they needs to end. The show is just treading water when it comes to Eliza—there’s been no growth in Eliza’s character on a personal level. Eliza is almost 30 years old, yet is a teenager when it comes to her personal life. It is really becoming cringy at this point & starting to make it impossible for me to take her seriously in her professional life. It’s past time for her to have an adult relationship with William. 

I TOTALLY agree with the bolded bit above. I'm sick of Eliza acting like a child. She really needs to start being 1) nicer to everybody, 2) stop with the chip on the shoulder and be a little bit humble and, 3) own her feelings for William.

I don't know why they can't get together and work together and be nice but also funny with each other.  The actor playing William has a great sense of humor and as infused his character with that, and I think it would work fine with them being in a relationship. I'd love to see that.  If they keep making her act like a teenager I may have to just quit.  I need them together and happy. I love him.

[LisaM]

Terrific episode. Loved the foursome working together on the case. Missed Ivy. 

Glad to see the end of Arabella.