S01.E07: Reflections

[Nick24]

Quote

IT ALL ADDS UP – The Hunt heats up and Mary (Meg Donnelly) and John (Drake Rodger) find trails that lead back to their fathers. Carlos (JoJo Fleites) helps Mary investigate where the Akrida might be hiding but they discover more than they bargained for. Meanwhile, Millie (Bianca Kajlich) steps in to help Latika (Nida Khurshid), Ada (Demetria McKinney), and John to decipher notes left behind and they stumble upon a way to get some answers. Richard Speight, Jr. directed the episode written by David H. Goodman & Robbie Thompson. Original Airdate 12/6/2022.

[AnimeMania]

Mid-Season Finale

Tom Welling as Samuel Campbell

Next New Episode: January 24, 2023 at permanent New Time 9pm
January 24, 2023 at 8pm will be a rebroadcast of Episode Seven.

[iMonrey]

This show just isn't very good, I'm afraid. Too much time spent on characters sitting/standing around talking about their feelings. That whole bit where John stormed away from the seance and then had to be talked down from blaming himself for his father running off. A similar scene with Carlos saying he felt guilty about his parents' death. A little heart to heart between Ada and Millie. The whole show is entirely too emo.

When I look at Meg Donnelly I still see Taylor from American Housewife. I almost want to laugh at her.

I can't remember, did they establish that John's father was dead? I thought he was just missing, like Samuel. It would have been funny if they'd gotten Jeffrey Dean Morgan to play his ghost.

I also can't remember if they established that John's father was a Man of Letters in Supernatural. 

Buehler? Buehler?

[petergirl]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I also can't remember if they established that John's father was a Man of Letters in Supernatural. 

You can rewatch "As Time Goes By" (S8E12) for answers.

[Nick24]

Well, first things first, my love for Millie keeps growing and growing😊. She seemed so excited about the office, about what Ada was doing. Kinda reminds of Dean when they found the bunker. Very nice.

Loved Ada/Millie dynamics. They might become a good team. Loved Mille's ''Would you mind repeating that?'' to the cop.

Henry. He didn't seem to know about the letter John had gotten. So more likely it was Dean. Maybe not, though. If Heaven exists out of the timeline, Henry might reach out for Dean (if Dean is there), tell him all of it and Dean would want to figure out what is happening, because he knows the things differently. In this case the letter might've been sent from someone else. 

When Henry started disappearing, I was thinking ''Don't you dare disappear before Millie gets to see you''.

Enjoyed Drake's acting a lot. He's so good at showing John's struggling. 

So, Roxy isn't the leader. I'm wondering if the real Queen has some human incarnation.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Nick24

[Shadow42]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This show just isn't very good, I'm afraid. Too much time spent on characters sitting/standing around talking about their feelings. That whole bit where John stormed away from the seance and then had to be talked down from blaming himself for his father running off. A similar scene with Carlos saying he felt guilty about his parents' death. A little heart to heart between Ada and Millie. The whole show is entirely too emo.

When I look at Meg Donnelly I still see Taylor from American Housewife. I almost want to laugh at her.

I can't remember, did they establish that John's father was dead? I thought he was just missing, like Samuel. It would have been funny if they'd gotten Jeffrey Dean Morgan to play his ghost.

I also can't remember if they established that John's father was a Man of Letters in Supernatural. 

Buehler? Buehler?

Yes Henry was a MOL.

[BornToDie]

I am kinda surprised that a prequel series associated with Supernatural is getting such a lackluster response, and this is with a couple of heavy-hitters like Gil McKinney and Tom Welling guest starring.  But the material is pretty weak so far, and I’ve seen a lot of chatter about the lack of chemistry between John and Mary.  It seems there’s only Twitter discussion for a couple of days and then it dries up.  The monsters look terrible, and I guess I expected more from Jensen and Robbie, but this is a genre show on the CW, so they can only do so much, I guess.

[PAForrest]

16 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Well, first things first, my love for Millie keeps growing and growing😊. She seemed so excited about the office, about what Ada was doing. Kinda reminds of Dean when they found the bunker. Very nice.

Loved Ada/Millie dynamics. They might become a good team. Loved Mille's ''Would you mind repeating that?'' to the cop.

Henry. He didn't seem to know about the letter John had gotten. So more likely it was Dean. Maybe not, though. If Heaven exists out of the timeline, Henry might reach out for Dean (if Dean is there), tell him all of it and Dean would want to figure out what is happening, because he knows the things differently. In this case the letter might've been sent from someone else. 

When Henry started disappearing, I was thinking ''Don't you dare disappear before Millie gets to see you''.

Enjoyed Drake's acting a lot. He's so good at showing John's struggling. 

So, Roxy isn't the leader. I'm wondering if the real Queen has some human incarnation.

I like Millie and I like how they're bringing her into the fold. I also really like the regular Scooby Gang aspect of this series. I get how Carlos is feeling - it would be sad to break up the group and go their separate ways.

So Roxy was just the head mouthpiece - I wonder if "the Queen" is going to take on the shape of someone we have known before?

I still think John received the letter either from an angel, like Cas, or from Dean himself.

Finally Tom Welling comes into the mix. Welling is a little like comfort food - I'm looking forward to seeing more of him when the show comes back.

I'm not convinced John and Mary are a good fit, but then I never thought so either in the original series - honestly, even less there. I doubt that's the message the series intends to convey, but given all we have seen and known from the original series to this one, I think the case can be made that these two people probably never should have been thrown together.

It was lovely seeing Gil/Henry again.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

So Roxy was just the head mouthpiece - I wonder if "the Queen" is going to take on the shape of someone we have known before?

It would be interesting if Samuel is "the Queen."  After all, he's been under their control all this time. 😊

[iMonrey]

Quote

It was lovely seeing Gil/Henry again.

Oh, so he did play Henry in Supernatural. I didn't remember him. That's pretty cool.

Quote

I am kinda surprised that a prequel series associated with Supernatural is getting such a lackluster response, and this is with a couple of heavy-hitters like Gil McKinney and Tom Welling guest starring.  But the material is pretty weak so far, and I’ve seen a lot of chatter about the lack of chemistry between John and Mary. 

 I want to like it, but it's just not very good. I kind of feel like I'm forcing myself to watch it.

[Shadow42]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:22 AM, BornToDie said:

I am kinda surprised that a prequel series associated with Supernatural is getting such a lackluster response, and this is with a couple of heavy-hitters like Gil McKinney and Tom Welling guest starring.  But the material is pretty weak so far, and I’ve seen a lot of chatter about the lack of chemistry between John and Mary.  It seems there’s only Twitter discussion for a couple of days and then it dries up.  The monsters look terrible, and I guess I expected more from Jensen and Robbie, but this is a genre show on the CW, so they can only do so much, I guess.

You aren't the only one who expected more from Jensen and Robbie. I give Jensen a lot more slack though. He has never produced anything before and he isn't a writer. Robbie OTOH has been a huge disappointment. This was a big chance for him to produce and be a show runner. Even if It was just a CW series. At the last Creation con the comment from many fans was....they expected better.

[Nick24]

8 hours ago, Shadow42 said:

You aren't the only one who expected more from Jensen and Robbie. I give Jensen a lot more slack though. He has never produced anything before and he isn't a writer. Robbie OTOH has been a huge disappointment. This was a big chance for him to produce and be a show runner. Even if It was just a CW series. At the last Creation con the comment from many fans was....they expected better.

High expectations are always a problem. I have a feeling that a lot of people are trying to compare this prequel to the beginning of SPN. IMO This is pointless, because I seriously doubt that anyone will ever be able to recreate something exactly like SPN S1-4. Honestly, I haven't noticed anything really bad on ''The Winchesters'' so far and I still think that this show is much more of SPN than any of S12-15, but MV, of course. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Nick24

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, Nick24 said:

High expectations are always a problem. I have a feeling that a lot of people are trying to compare this prequel to the beginning of SPN. IMO This is pointless, because I seriously doubt that anyone will ever be able to recreate something exactly like SPN S1-4. Honestly, I haven't noticed anything really bad on ''The Winchesters'' so far and I still think that this show is much more of SPN than any of S12-15, but MV, of course. 

There will always be naysayers when it comes to any kind of entertainment product. 

I've actually seen a lot of postivity for the show on my twitter and Instagram accounts and even though I'm not into either one of those things big-time, but timelines for any individual will undoubtedly affect whether one sees the show as "succeeding" or "failing" in any way, and not just in attempting to capture the essence of the mothership. 

For my part, I'm enjoying it immensely as I see it as both capturing a bit of the mothership's essence, but also as an entity unto itself within the SPN universe.

And yes, I completely agree with the last part of the above quote-to me, The Winchesters harkens back to the mothership far more and better than S12-15 under he-who-shall-not be named-here ever did.

I'm still watching and re-watching The Winchesters avidly because it's enjoyable programming to me, and usually demands a re-watch, as Supernatural often did, when it was at it's best. 

I haven't had time to post about it as much as I'd like to, but maybe after the holidays, I can catch up with that,  too.

I'm hoping for that, anyway. 

RL is insane sometimes, though, isn't it?! 🤪

[Nick24]

9 hours ago, Myrelle said:

For my part, I'm enjoying it immensely as I see it as both capturing a bit of the mothership's essence, but also as an entity unto itself within the SPN universe.

IA. Especially I like a lot that The Winchesters has taken the better parts of SPN essence. I mean saving people, saving the world, that kind of stuff. I can say that I'm really proud of the characters and the way they've been doing their job, whereas also trying to deal with their personal issues, BUT they don't let these personal issues become more important than helping people, and that's great. 

The only thing that makes me sad is that we have to wait too many weeks for the next episode. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Nick24

[Lastcall]

At the midway point, this is the one that has pretty much turned me off of the series. It's not that it's a bad show, it's that there is nothing that really stands out or is original. I agree about Robbie being a disappointment. After all the time he had to prepare for this show and the story as a whole, all he does is repeat the Leviathan arc from Season 7 of the original. When the show started to bore me, I started playing what if Robbie was handed season 12. I thought maybe I would enjoy the show more if it was Sam and Dean, but retelling old stories was one of my biggest complaints about the last few years of the mothership. 

It is unfair to compare this to the original show early episodes. That show had advantages this and most shows never have in this day and age. However, having such a large cast seems to be hurting more than helping. Now, this could be the Covid restrictions or Pedowitz mandates but having to bounce between so many characters cuts out a lot of development and it feels like they have to rush through everything. Another thing, not addressing how this is canon is hurting the show. It feels more like a reboot than a prequel. Yes, we know this is going to be addressed but I don't know how many others do. The ratings have been cut in half and the viewers almost by half. Unfortunately, after finally seeing what the Akrida are, I don't have faith that Robbie's explanation will be a good one.

I'm going to watch to the end. I always thought if Jensen and people who loved the old show as much as Robbie had control, they would recapture the magic of the old shows glory days. This show has let me accept that those days are never coming back. Whatever magic it had left burned out midway through season 11. I don't even think I want a season 16 now after this. I would have hated that it ended but the original series should have stopped after the Season 11 finale.

[Shadow42]

I don't think fans are trying to compare TW with SPN as much as trying to marry the two series into a story that makes sense. We were promised this episode was going to be the one that fans would see how it all is going to work. It didn't. Whatever clues Robbie is dropping they are too subtle or non existent. The pacing is glacial. There is no sense of urgency or peril. Meg is still painfully miscast and there is no real chemistry between any of the characters.

The spider monsters are corny and the CGI is cartoon-ish. Monsters in the harsh bright light didn't work on the last few seasons of SPN and it isn't working for TW either. 

If Jensen and Robbie weren't involved I would have stopped watching after the 3rd episode. It's become the trainwreck I never saw coming given the talent involved... but I going to keep watching just in case we are eventually let in on the punchline.

[Myrelle]

One thing the two shows most certainly have in common is the differing and varied opinions and viewpoints on so many aspects of the 2 shows.

In the past, I'd often seen the comment that "It's like we were watching two different shows" as regarded the mothership; and I have to say that I feel the same after reading some of the comments in the episode threads on this site, concerning this show, too. 

I'm just going to add that I never felt that we'd get any real answers until the finale, as it is with many shows, especially the good ones, wherein we'd also better recognize any hints and clues that might have been woven in by the writers throughout the season.

I know what I'd like to see in episode 13, but that's for the spoilers and spec thread someday...

Edited December 13, 2022 by Myrelle

[Shadow42]

Except that Robbie right out said that by the mid season finale intrepid SPN fans would have figured out where the story was headed. If he didn't mean it he shouldn't have said anything. And in the same interview both Jensen and Robbie promised we were going to "get there" in an unexpected way. The clear implication being we will get to original canon and fans will be able to guess how....at least by now.

Unless they are talking about a different timeline or AU there aren't too many other avenues that would explain all the discrepancies in canon.

So far most fans have already checked out if the dwindling number of viewers are any indication.

[Nick24]

If the viewers are checking out because of not being able to connect the prequel to the mythical canon (because I keep on insisting that there is no such thing as canon in SPNverse), then I have no idea, how they lived through destroying the whole Season 4 in 5.22, the backdoor from Hell to Purgatory, turning invisible reapers into visible angels and back, using the Book of the Damned to set Lucifer free in S11, because apparently Azazel and Lilith were stupid enough not to use it back in S1-4, character assassination of Mary, Heaven crisis in S13, whereas there were no angels in Heaven in S9 at all, Nick's ridiculous return in S14, Jack eating the show, retconning the whole series into Chuck's story, etc. Why did all of SPN showrunners get a free pass with that?

4 hours ago, Shadow42 said:

Except that Robbie right out said that by the mid season finale intrepid SPN fans would have figured out where the story was headed. If he didn't mean it he shouldn't have said anything.

Maybe Robbie thought that Ep.13 would be the mid-season finale when he said it. I really haven't heard of getting to canon by Ep.7. Perhaps when we get to the truth in Ep.13, we will immediately be able to recognize all the hints we were given. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

Considering previous episodes, I thought this wasn't as strong.  I like the overall story, but it seemed really rushed. Maybe this could have been a two-parter? Henry in one, Samuel in the next? I wanted more interaction with Henry. It wasn't nearly enough for me.

On 12/11/2022 at 8:43 PM, Myrelle said:

For my part, I'm enjoying it immensely as I see it as both capturing a bit of the mothership's essence, but also as an entity unto itself within the SPN universe.

It's the fact that these are really two different shows. IMO, expecting TW to be a continuation or a flashback episode of SPN is what is making a lot of fans not engage with this show. We all loved SPN for various reasons, and always will. But I think we have to take TW as just a show within the SPN verse. Yes, it's main characters were part of SPN, but their story was really only a footnote in the OG series. We are being introduced to characters that we met years ago just before they died. Even resurrected Mary wasn't given much screen time as herself. There isn't a true connection yet to SPN. Henry was the first one so far who was probably the same in both shows.

On 12/11/2022 at 2:49 PM, Nick24 said:

High expectations are always a problem. I have a feeling that a lot of people are trying to compare this prequel to the beginning of SPN.

I don't really care that the monsters are kind of campy looking. I'm not watching this show because I expect fantastic cutting edge, award winning special effects. SPN did a lot with practical things back when it started. Later seasons had very few special effects/monsters. This is a low budget CW show, they might be keeping the monsters campy on purpose, who knows? As long as the story keeps me interested

On 12/8/2022 at 10:57 PM, PAForrest said:

I still think John received the letter either from an angel, like Cas, or from Dean himself.

I'm still going with it being Ketch, because the actor said he was going to be on it, and there isn't any other reason for Ketch to interact with John/Mary.

[Shadow42]

12 hours ago, Nick24 said:

If the viewers are checking out because of not being able to connect the prequel to the mythical canon (because I keep on insisting that there is no such thing as canon in SPNverse), then I have no idea, how they lived through destroying the whole Season 4 in 5.22, the backdoor from Hell to Purgatory, turning invisible reapers into visible angels and back, using the Book of the Damned to set Lucifer free in S11, because apparently Azazel and Lilith were stupid enough not to use it back in S1-4, character assassination of Mary, Heaven crisis in S13, whereas there were no angels in Heaven in S9 at all, Nick's ridiculous return in S14, Jack eating the show, retconning the whole series into Chuck's story, etc. Why did all of SPN showrunners get a free pass with that?

Maybe Robbie thought that Ep.13 would be the mid-season finale when he said it. I really haven't heard of getting to canon by Ep.7. Perhaps when we get to the truth in Ep.13, we will immediately be able to recognize all the hints we were given. 

I watched the interview from NYC that all the producers and cast members were doing to promote the show. Of course canon and lore was brought up by everyone. That's where he said by E7 fans will have figured out where the story was headed. And how it was going to join up with the original series.

My point is why say that if it wasn't going to happen.

[Lastcall]

17 hours ago, Nick24 said:

If the viewers are checking out because of not being able to connect the prequel to the mythical canon (because I keep on insisting that there is no such thing as canon in SPNverse), then I have no idea, how they lived through destroying the whole Season 4 in 5.22, the backdoor from Hell to Purgatory, turning invisible reapers into visible angels and back, using the Book of the Damned to set Lucifer free in S11, because apparently Azazel and Lilith were stupid enough not to use it back in S1-4, character assassination of Mary, Heaven crisis in S13, whereas there were no angels in Heaven in S9 at all, Nick's ridiculous return in S14, Jack eating the show, retconning the whole series into Chuck's story, etc. Why did all of SPN showrunners get a free pass with that?

Maybe Robbie thought that Ep.13 would be the mid-season finale when he said it. I really haven't heard of getting to canon by Ep.7. Perhaps when we get to the truth in Ep.13, we will immediately be able to recognize all the hints we were given. 

I think the frustration comes from Dean and Robbie selling Canon so much at conventions and in interviews. Many thought this would fix Canon, not make it worse. Hardcore fans are use to head cannoning their way through various show runners but I was hoping I wouldn’t for this one. The hardest for me is Henry Winchester. He time travelled, he shouldn’t be a ghost. That’s fine for viewers who never saw the mothership but those probably aren’t many. The closest way to make this work is the time works differently in heaven from the old show. However, if Henry was summoned from future heaven then he shouldn’t have acted like he hadn’t seen John and Millie for 15 years. They should have been with him in heaven unless Henry is in hell for some reason.

10 hours ago, MAK said:

I don't really care that the monsters are kind of campy looking. I'm not watching this show because I expect fantastic cutting edge, award winning special effects. SPN did a lot with practical things back when it started. Later seasons had very few special effects/monsters. This is a low budget CW show, they might be keeping the monsters campy on purpose, who knows? As long as the story keeps me interested

I’m starting to believe the monsters are due to covid precautions more than Robbie wanting actual monsters on the show. He wants something epic but it’s difficult to stick 50 people in a warehouse together in today’s environment. Trouble is computer monsters cost money and there is only so much you can do with puppets and practical effects like the Loup Garou. I don’t have an issue with campy...I find it refreshing to see monsters rather than the different combinations of contacts, teeth and finger nails the old show used.

[MAK]

2 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I think the frustration comes from Dean and Robbie selling Canon so much at conventions and in interviews. Many thought this would fix Canon, not make it worse.

I don't know, but I don't think they were selling canon so much as reassuring fans that nothing in the OG series will be re-written. That's different than saying that it will be exactly like it was. At least that's the way I understood it.

[tessathereaper]

On 12/7/2022 at 3:55 PM, iMonrey said:

This show just isn't very good, I'm afraid. Too much time spent on characters sitting/standing around talking about their feelings. That whole bit where John stormed away from the seance and then had to be talked down from blaming himself for his father running off. A similar scene with Carlos saying he felt guilty about his parents' death. A little heart to heart between Ada and Millie. The whole show is entirely too emo.

When I look at Meg Donnelly I still see Taylor from American Housewife. I almost want to laugh at her.

I can't remember, did they establish that John's father was dead? I thought he was just missing, like Samuel. It would have been funny if they'd gotten Jeffrey Dean Morgan to play his ghost.

I also can't remember if they established that John's father was a Man of Letters in Supernatural. 

Buehler? Buehler?

Yes they did, when his letter in the pilot said "If you've received this I'm dead".  The guy hasn't been seen in 15 years, and they get a letter saying "If you get this I'm probably dead" it's a pretty sure thing they are dead.

And yes they established Henry was a MoL, he's the one who gave Dean and Sam the key to the bunker, because he was a Man of Letters.  They both knew they were legacies.  

5 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I think the frustration comes from Dean and Robbie selling Canon so much at conventions and in interviews. Many thought this would fix Canon, not make it worse. Hardcore fans are use to head cannoning their way through various show runners but I was hoping I wouldn’t for this one. The hardest for me is Henry Winchester. He time travelled, he shouldn’t be a ghost. That’s fine for viewers who never saw the mothership but those probably aren’t many. The closest way to make this work is the time works differently in heaven from the old show. However, if Henry was summoned from future heaven then he shouldn’t have acted like he hadn’t seen John and Millie for 15 years. They should have been with him in heaven unless Henry is in hell for some reason.

Henry time traveled but then he died.  When he died in our present, he died in his past as well.  A person who time travels but died in the future it still going to be dead in their own time too.  A person who is dead is dead, it doesn't matter where you are(assuming Chuck or the angels weren't interested in emotionally torturing you for their enjoyment and no one family members messed with the natural order to bring you back to life).  Anyone who is still alive still has their soul connected to their corporeal body, so they can't be called in a seance, which calls forth a non-corporeal spirit, someone who is dead is no longer attached to their corporeal body, they can be seanced.   

To take it a little further than the show, naturally someone from let's say 1910 isn't going to know Johnny Smith who was born 2087 and died 2192 ever existed to call them forth in a seance.  The whole thing about calling a spirit is someone has to be either emotionally attached to them or have something that belonged to them. They don't necessarily have to know them personally but it makes it easier but they have to know of them as an individual person, not just a vague idea like "future descendent from the 25th century".    So someone from the past isn't going to be able to call someone from the future they never knew or whom they have no personal items.  

But on the other hand,  I think this tells us something about when the show it taking place - this has something to do what Dean is looking into.  Dean knows Henry is dead. Henry is dead in Dean's time, Dean could have theoretically reach him in a seance, so they can reach him in a seance.  Dean's story and his parents story is connected and eventually they are going to meet.  The songs that are being played are connected(Dean literally said I'll be picking the music, so was Roxy picking the music, or was Dean?).  Drake, Meg, etc they have all said everything has meaning, the songs have meaning, they weren't just chosen to be cool(though I'll be honest I'm burned out on research and analysis, etc I'm pretty happy to go along for the ride so I haven't actually studied the lyrics).  Colors, clothing, the story parallels they have meaning, they aren't just happening for the hell of it.  They are planned. They are the reason for the story.

I think possibly the reason some people don't have any ideas about what's possibly going is because they aren't thinking about that.

IMO this is taking place in the space after death but before heaven, where Dean has to figure something before he can moving on(ie meet Bobby outside the roadhouse) and seeing something his parents went through that he didn't know about will help him do that. I don't know exactly why or what, maybe this is some sort of trap set by Chuck, a sort of failsafe if he was ever pushed out of heaven, and Dean being Dean noticed it felt wrong and decided he had to figure it out.  Or it could be for some totally different reason.  But I do think we've been given some pretty good signposts for what direction the story is heading in, so IMO Robbie was not wrong about that.  And I believe they decided to treat 7 and 8 as a sort of unofficial 2 parter.

Now I don't think this is anything like Season 7 and the Leviathans storyline as someone else mentioned but let's say that's the case, what was that related to in the mothership?  Purgatory.  So is this, not purgatory, but a place like purgatory in the sense that it is neither heaven nor hell?  Or you know what else else was black and gooey? The Empty.  Actually those are all PLACES, I don't know if we've visited the actual transition between one space and another.  This would be a liminal space, a space of transition between two planes.  Perhaps this is new, or something that Chuck didn't allow access to when he had control and wanted to keep souls in Memorex. 

[Lastcall]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Yes they did, when his letter in the pilot said "If you've received this I'm dead".  The guy hasn't been seen in 15 years, and they get a letter saying "If you get this I'm probably dead" it's a pretty sure thing they are dead.

And yes they established Henry was a MoL, he's the one who gave Dean and Sam the key to the bunker, because he was a Man of Letters.  They both knew they were legacies.  

Henry time traveled but then he died.  When he died in our present, he died in his past as well.  A person who time travels but died in the future it still going to be dead in their own time too.  A person who is dead is dead, it doesn't matter where you are(assuming Chuck or the angels weren't interested in emotionally torturing you for their enjoyment and no one family members messed with the natural order to bring you back to life).  Anyone who is still alive still has their soul connected to their corporeal body, so they can't be called in a seance, which calls forth a non-corporeal spirit, someone who is dead is no longer attached to their corporeal body, they can be seanced.   

To take it a little further than the show, naturally someone from let's say 1910 isn't going to know Johnny Smith who was born 2087 and died 2192 ever existed to call them forth in a seance.  The whole thing about calling a spirit is someone has to be either emotionally attached to them or have something that belonged to them. They don't necessarily have to know them personally but it makes it easier but they have to know of them as an individual person, not just a vague idea like "future descendent from the 25th century".    So someone from the past isn't going to be able to call someone from the future they never knew or whom they have no personal items.  

But on the other hand,  I think this tells us something about when the show it taking place - this has something to do what Dean is looking into.  Dean knows Henry is dead. Henry is dead in Dean's time, Dean could have theoretically reach him in a seance, so they can reach him in a seance.  Dean's story and his parents story is connected and eventually they are going to meet.  The songs that are being played are connected(Dean literally said I'll be picking the music, so was Roxy picking the music, or was Dean?).  Drake, Meg, etc they have all said everything has meaning, the songs have meaning, they weren't just chosen to be cool(though I'll be honest I'm burned out on research and analysis, etc I'm pretty happy to go along for the ride so I haven't actually studied the lyrics).  Colors, clothing, the story parallels they have meaning, they aren't just happening for the hell of it.  They are planned. They are the reason for the story.

I think possibly the reason some people don't have any ideas about what's possibly going is because they aren't thinking about that.

IMO this is taking place in the space after death but before heaven, where Dean has to figure something before he can moving on(ie meet Bobby outside the roadhouse) and seeing something his parents went through that he didn't know about will help him do that. I don't know exactly why or what, maybe this is some sort of trap set by Chuck, a sort of failsafe if he was ever pushed out of heaven, and Dean being Dean noticed it felt wrong and decided he had to figure it out.  Or it could be for some totally different reason.  But I do think we've been given some pretty good signposts for what direction the story is heading in, so IMO Robbie was not wrong about that.  And I believe they decided to treat 7 and 8 as a sort of unofficial 2 parter.

Now I don't think this is anything like Season 7 and the Leviathans storyline as someone else mentioned but let's say that's the case, what was that related to in the mothership?  Purgatory.  So is this, not purgatory, but a place like purgatory in the sense that it is neither heaven nor hell?  Or you know what else else was black and gooey? The Empty.  Actually those are all PLACES, I don't know if we've visited the actual transition between one space and another.  This would be a liminal space, a space of transition between two planes.  Perhaps this is new, or something that Chuck didn't allow access to when he had control and wanted to keep souls in Memorex. 

I really hope you are right about this. I am dreading that all of this leads to the most boring possibility of all...angel mind wipe. If they come up with anything remotely original, I could come back around.

[tessathereaper]

I don't need it to be what I'm speculating it is, but to me it's pretty clearly going somewhere, it definitely has a viewpoint and what is happening matters at least within the SPN universe.

[tennisgurl]

I have no idea where this fits into the greater Supernatural mythology, if its a prequel or some kind of alternate timeline or if we find out that Dean or Cas or someone else is manipulating things from the future or heaven, but I am just enjoying the ride. I would certainly be happy to see more of past characters, but I like that this show feels very back to basics. Before everything became some huge cosmic battle between heaven and hell, with constantly growing power levels and the show feeling like it has to go bigger every season, I really like that the show is mostly focused on characters traveling around, saving people and hunting monsters, even if we are clearly building up to something with whatever it is that Roxie is workshopping. I like that it feels so much like early seasons before things became so damn convoluted. 

I love Millie, I really wish that she could have seen Henry. 

[roamyn]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:32 AM, tennisgurl said:

I love Millie, I really wish that she could have seen Henry. 

She did see him.  He said “I love you very much” to her.

[7kstar]

On 12/14/2022 at 8:46 AM, Lastcall said:

I think the frustration comes from Dean and Robbie selling Canon so much at conventions and in interviews. Many thought this would fix Canon, not make it worse. Hardcore fans are use to head cannoning their way through various show runners but I was hoping I wouldn’t for this one.

One of the things that is funny to me is that in Season 1 of Supernatural there were similar complaints of the show being slow and etc.  Then I noticed that the last four eps really picked up the pace and made the show interesting.  Kind of like Star Wars and ET.  Both movies started off slow and boring even.  Then the ending is what you remember and gets you excited for more.

There are moments that are interesting and I believe Carlos and John are more interesting to watch.  I like Millie every time I see her.  Covid may still be causing issues as we see the characters spaced out in the fighting scenes.  IA with the ratings of 6 or 7 with ten being the best. 

I'm not really spending my time with comparison because I think I can see how they tie this into cannon.  I'm not compelled to watch the show each week.  The scripts could be tighter and need someone to do some editing and adding just more movement without dialogue could even help.  They do seem to be stuck in tell vs show.

I'm hoping we will see the connections that Jensen and Robbie have promised, but I think you would enjoy it more if you just watch without wanting the cannon explained.  Shoot Robbie is doing better that the last two seasons of Supernatural.  The monsters have been familiar, but not always in the way you expected.  I do like that they are pushing hunting to save people angle. 

[MAK]

3 hours ago, 7kstar said:

They do seem to be stuck in tell vs show.

This seems to be a problem in a lot of shows these days. Maybe because of COVID protocols? Or just cost-cutting? Whatever the reason, it's irritating.