S08.E03: Heartache

[Demented Daisy]

Sam and Dean investigate a series of murders where the victims all received organs from the same donor;  the brothers find the killer in a trance and reciting an ancient prayer.

 

 

The best part of this episode?  Alan Ackles.  :-)

[AwesomO4000]

That last scene with Dean talking about how happy he was to be back hunting with Sam and Sam just sitting there with a huge bitchface and complaining? And then the totally awful, sappy flashback. Could they make Sam look any worse? I just wanted to throw something at the television. The first half of this season was not good for my mental health.

 

Don't think I remember much else about the episode at this point. Just no.

[Amerilla]

That last flashback was horrid. Seriously, intimating that nobody ever celebrated poor little Sammy's birthday before? I find it hard to believe, if only because Dean would never pass up an opportunity to buy a celebratory pie, if not cake.

I think Sam looked far more like an assbutt (quoth Castiel) here than in 8x01. Dean is basically telling him he loves him and he wants nothing more than for Sam to stay. He's getting dangerous close to chick-flicky about it. And Sam is telling him flat-out that he's going to walk as soon as possible. ... for frigging Amelia? No, no, no, no, no. Just. NO.

 

Or, put another way: Amelia laid out a picnic. Dean went to Hell for you. Is this really a hard choice?

Edited August 21, 2014 by Amerilla

[supposebly]

Not only Dean who stole Christmas presents for Sam but yes, Jess, of the cookie-baking persuasion wouldn't get him something for his birthday? Right.

To quote Scully: Sure. Fine. Whatever.

 

And another dialog gem: The year that I took off, I had something I never had. A normal life.

 

I'm re-watching, trying to find something in these episodes and I get so angry. It's not just a retcon, the whole raison d'etre of Sam in the early seasons and even later (when it turned out he was being watched and manipulated) was thrown out the window with this.

 

It kills every other aspects with Dean and I can't enjoy those either.

 

Well, I like Sam's hair this season.

[catrox14]

 

Or, put another way: Amelia laid out a picnic. Dean went to Hell for you. Is this really a hard choice?

 

Holy crap. This made me laugh a silly amount. That pretty much sums up s8 right there. LOL well said.

[DittyDotDot]

I really don't care for this episode. I'm sorry Jensen, I want to like it, I just don't. First, it's too much talky and too much standing around (or sometimes sitting) while doing the talky. Didn't care for the actress that played the older lady, nor the actress that played the heart of the Mayan God. Didn't care for how all the sudden Sam was a sports fanatic and could start listing stats. I don't think this pair of writers has yet put together an episode that, when all is said and done, makes any sort of sense to me. I have no idea why they keep them around (other than one of them being married to Singer). They really don't seem to know what show they are writing for at times.

 

Sam's flashback at the end made little sense to me and looked so very icky. Of course, someone celebrated Sam's birthday at least once. No way Dean breaks into a house and steals presents to give wee Sam a Christmas, but never once thought to celebrate his birthday in some fashion.  And then there's Jessica, who made Sam celebrate his LSAT scores, but didn't once celebrate the day of his birth...please. I get what they were trying to do with the flashback--the important part wasn't the birthday picnic, but that Sam had lost track of Amelia and was panicking that someone else he cared for had just disappeared. I do get it, but then they pour on the stupid at the end and pull me right out of the moment.

 

I think the biggest problem with this episode for me might have been that they shot this one first, because Jensen directed it, but they hadn't yet worked out what was going on with Sam--or it doesn't appear they had.  Under normal conditions with this show, it wouldn't have probably been a problem, but since they had a new show runner and were really changing the entire tone and direction of the show, it turned out to be a big problem because when they did finally figure out what they want to do with Sam, it's too late--they'd already set in stone things that contradict it. So, everything that comes before this episode had to stay vague and everything that came after doesn't always make sense. It's hard for me to see this episode as anything but jarring. I really am sorry, Jensen, I really am. But to turn this around a little, Jensen getting to direct his dad was great and some of my favorite con responses from Jensen has come from this experience and just to give Jensen some praise for his directing...the way they shot that jogging scene was interesting, and I recall really liking it.

[rue721]

Such a slow, awkward episode.

 

Why did Brick kill himself even before "Elenore" died? And the whole thing is about how Brick couldn't bear to go on without her (except then he just abandoned her by killing himself?) was also strange because she didn't seem really very sad about his death at all. The actress couldn't look verklempt for a second ffs?

 

Also, Sam totally should take his last 10 credits or whatever and get a BA. Maybe then he'll finally be informed that "pre-law" isn't a major. Anyway, just take the courses online, no big. Dean likes to do all the driving for the Winchesters anyway, so as long as Sam has dramamine on hand, he should be have plenty of time/energy to study even while traveling.

 

The flashback at the end was horrible, you guys were right. I don't even understand. She must to have been carrying around this big picnic basket full of stuff when she and Sam went into the park in the first place, so how could the picnic have been a surprise? Or did she just stash the food and blanket in the park earlier (ick)? Or did they not go to the park together, but she told Sam they should should meet on the bridge even though she really wanted Sam to meet her in another location? Idk, all those options seem weird.

 

I don't even understand what they were going for, were we supposed to feel bad for Sam that he was having a horrible picnic (with a dog right there who is going to scarf all the food, yuck) for his supposed only birthday party ever? But he was so bitchy and cold in the scene right before the flashback and just in general through the episode, so why would anyone be feeling sorry for him ten seconds later when something nice happens to him? Not that the flashback was ever going to land anyway, because, like you all say, the "no birthday celebrations" thing is distractingly stupid. Sam isn't three years old, if he had wanted to celebrate his birthday at virtually any point in his life, I don't think that Dean would have been like NO CUPCAKES!!!1! and refused to join. And OMG if that also means that Sam has never done anything for any of Dean's birthdays in his whole life, I can't even, because you know that Dean would be all hurt and nurse a grudge over that. (Though now I want him to plan some terrible little picnic surprise for Dean's birthday, because that would be hilarious). Sam also must have done something for Jessica, because I doubt they would have still been dating if he hadn't, and she didn't seem like she'd be rude and forget his in return. And with all the Bobby retconing, even Bobby didn't take him out for a drink or a meal for his birthday? Not even going to bring up Sam's actual parent. Well anyway, the writers clearly gave this whole thing very little thought, but the main issue is that I really don't know how we were supposed to take the flashback or what its takeaway is even supposed to be. Sam is too bitchy to be a team player now? Compared to Amelia and her life, Dean and his life sucks, so Sam's going to be all resentful that he's stuck with Dean until...well, until something or other happens? But no way, how could that possibly be what the show/writers were going for?

 

And I did laugh when Sam said that he'd never had a normal life...except for those four years he was away in college. And arguably all those years he was a young kid and didn't know about monsters yet, though probably the writers forgot that we actually saw the flashback when he learned about them, Idk.

[Iguana]

I was convinced when this ep first aired that Amelia wasn't real and that Sam's memories of her were to help him get through The mental breakdown he had after Dean went to purgatory. Unfortunately I was wrong. God only knows how bad I wish she was a figment of Sam's imagination and he hadn't "just hit a dog".

[rue721]

I was convinced when this ep first aired that Amelia wasn't real and that Sam's memories of her were to help him get through The mental breakdown he had after Dean went to purgatory. Unfortunately I was wrong. God only knows how bad I wish she was a figment of Sam's imagination and he hadn't "just hit a dog".

 

Wait, are you sure you were wrong? Because this would make SO MUCH more sense as a bizarre fever dream of Sam's. Especially since later in the season they talk about how fallible memories are, because people will twist them in order to remember/believe what they have to remember/believe, or how people can escape into their own heads when reality is too much for them. Sam also specifically did that before, when he went into "the woods" to look for the other parts of himself (the soulless part, the part from Hell) with that bartender. Is there any external corroboration that any of the Amelia stuff is real, or is it just all Sam's word for it? (And I don't remember, but happened to the dog?)

 

Though I know they *still* refer to it as being real, so if they are *ever* going to retcon it (please, TPTB?) they haven't yet in any case. But seriously, then

Amelia's soldier husband comes back from the dead? How is that *not* a delusion?

 

ETA:  Oh wait, the car smelled like dog when Dean got back from Purgatory. So OK, thing of having a dog for some period is real at least. Too bad!

Edited December 13, 2014 by rue721

[Iguana]

Sorry Rue. As much as we may collectively want Amelia not to be real, the show makes it clear she is. Damnit.

[supposebly]

I was sure it was all a dream too. Mostly because of the inanity of it all but also the lighting. It was so overly bright and saturated and there seemed to be a filter that softened everything and made everything kinda yellow. A bit like Bobby's dream in season 7, now that I think of it. I think they used that again when Dean was in Sam's head at the beginning of season 9.

 

Overall, I just pretend that the first half of this season never happened. It's all in my head. A bad memory, no more.

[catrox14]

I always thought the Amelia picnic was an homage or parallel to Dean's supposed longing for a picnic with Lisa...which gods...why would EITHER brother really want a picnic with a woman.  I mean come on, writers.  Do you really expect me to believe that a fantasy for these boys is THAT?  No no no.

[rue721]

I was sure it was all a dream too. Mostly because of the inanity of it all but also the lighting. It was so overly bright and saturated and there seemed to be a filter that softened everything and made everything kinda yellow. A bit like Bobby's dream in season 7, now that I think of it. I think they used that again when Dean was in Sam's head at the beginning of season 9.

 

Yeah, the lighting really throws me. I guess it's supposed to be orange-y to contrast with Dean's blue flashbacks to Purgatory? There was a while a few years ago when orange and teal were EVERYWHERE -- guess that was while this season was in production, lol.

 

But I mostly am just incredulous about the storyline. It's like a parody of a Nicholas Sparks story. I'm just so curious about what the writers were even thinking, because I can't even imagine pitching that idea.

"What if Sam hits a dog, and is shamed by this alcoholic vet widow into keeping him, and then knows everything about HVAC so that he'll be able to support himself and then moves into a house with her and meets her family but then her dead husband the war hero comes back!"

Who in the world would take that seriously and why? Where were they even going with the character?

 

Though to be fair, I don't really know where they were going with Purgatory, either, although the actual storyline there made more sense and fit in with the show better.

 

The whole look of the show is so weird in S8, though, it doesn't *look* like SPN. It really bothers me. Everything looks like it's filmed on a sitcom set and all the lighting looks like it's coming from CFL bulbs. I will say that both Sam and Dean are looking fantastic in this season, but uh. They never really look bad, they're just straight up gorgeous, so I'd personally be willing to trade them looking slightly less fantastic for the rest of the show looking like itself/better.

[DittyDotDot]

The whole look of the show is so weird in S8, though, it doesn't *look* like SPN. It really bothers me. Everything looks like it's filmed on a sitcom set and all the lighting looks like it's coming from CFL bulbs. I will say that both Sam and Dean are looking fantastic in this season, but uh. They never really look bad, they're just straight up gorgeous, so I'd personally be willing to trade them looking slightly less fantastic for the rest of the show looking like itself/better.

 

I know! I harped on this a lot throughout S8. Not just the lighting, but they had spiffy new wardrobe and the flannels were so colorful at times. The boys were always pretty, but they also were working men and had grime under their fingernails and battle scars and such. S8, was really like watching sanitized and younger version of Supernatural. I don't know, the whole thing kinda threw me for a loop at the time. I think I've finally adjusted to it, but I don't think it will ever really sit right with me.

 

As to the whole Amelia thing, I get what they were trying to do with it, I just never connected with it. I think they were trying to show Sam thought Dean was dead and hopefully resting in peace and now he'd have to go on without him. I just don't think Sam had it in him to do the job without Dean and he was floundering and met this woman who he was trying to force into that space Dean used to occupy, even though she didn't fit there at all. In some ways, I do think it wasn't real--I mean, Amelia was obviously and unfortunately real--but a lot of the relationship was built up in Sam's head, IMO and not really there. I wouldn't be apposed to them doing a full ret-con here and we learn it wasn't at all as they presented it. But I don't think that's gonna happen either.

 

I think they were trying to do the same thing with Purgatory and Benny for Dean. I don't think they ever thought Benny would come off as he did to most folks. I think they meant for it to feel wrong that Dean was trying to fill the space that Sam once held with a monster. I suspect they wanted both sides to be somewhat of fantasy fulfillment for both the boys. The problem is, they never gave a good enough reason for why Sam thought Dean was dead so it came off as Sam giving up on Dean. And, it didn't help that Amelia and Sam had zero chemistry together also. It was almost painful to watch some of their scenes. On the other side of the coin, they cast a guy that really brought Benny to life and had some amazing chemistry with Jensen, so the awkwardness and wrongness didn't translate as well. Plus, they segregated all the action to Purgatory, which automatically made it more interesting to watch. I just think they thought we would all just follow along and they didn't need to explain themselves to us because we'd been following along for 7 years already.

[catrox14]

I've come to the point that I think Dean and Sam were supposed to come across as it being healthy that Sam had a girlfriend and lived a life free of hunting of his own volition.  And that Dean having a friend not named Cas was healthy....but then they screwed the pooch by not having Sam look for Dean and having Dean kill Amy.  I dunno the whole thing was weird. And yeah the whole dumping of the Purgatory story....for Samelia......and Dean angst...bleh.

 

I still maintain that Carver wanted to somehow recreate the Being Human dynamic of how do monsters live as humans and how do humans deal with the monster inside them.  That hasn't really changed and has been amped up in s10.  It's all very confusing and this episode doesn't help LOL

[rue721]

I know! I harped on this a lot throughout S8. Not just the lighting, but they had spiffy new wardrobe and the flannels were so colorful at times. The boys were always pretty, but they also were working men and had grime under their fingernails and battle scars and such. S8, was really like watching sanitized and younger version of Supernatural. I don't know, the whole thing kinda threw me for a loop at the time. I think I've finally adjusted to it, but I don't think it will ever really sit right with me.

 

Yeah, everyone is wearing much more white, the light is much brighter and whiter, it's like everything is happening at 11am on a gorgeous May day. I think they even gave Sam a few ombre highlights to frame his face. Why? Why film this like it's all just a sideplot in the movie "Dear John" or something? A big part of what makes/made the show fun was that all these horrifying legends were coming to life in basically the regular boring world imo, and OK, they started moving away from that relatively early, but I feel like S8 is a total break from it.

 

What's strange is, even as everything looked much more schlocky and "Hart of Dixie," the characters themselves all got harsher and colder imo. JA can bring the "I'm a sensitive soul, really" face like nobody else, so he still managed to soften Dean up a fair amount regardless of the script, but I was practically shivering whenever Sam and his bitchface came on the screen. The characters altogether were written so inconsistently, too, it's difficult to keep up with where their heads are supposed to be at in the first place.

 

As to the whole Amelia thing, I get what they were trying to do with it, I just never connected with it. I think they were trying to show Sam thought Dean was dead and hopefully resting in peace and now he'd have to go on without him. I just don't think Sam had it in him to do the job without Dean and he was floundering and met this woman who he was trying to force into that space Dean used to occupy, even though she didn't fit there at all. In some ways, I do think it wasn't real--I mean, Amelia was obviously and unfortunately real--but a lot of the relationship was built up in Sam's head, IMO and not really there. I wouldn't be apposed to them doing a full ret-con here and we learn it wasn't at all as they presented it. But I don't think that's gonna happen either.

 

I think they were trying to do the same thing with Purgatory and Benny for Dean. I don't think they ever thought Benny would come off as he did to most folks. I think they meant for it to feel wrong that Dean was trying to fill the space that Sam once held with a monster. I suspect they wanted both sides to be somewhat of fantasy fulfillment for both the boys. The problem is, they never gave a good enough reason for why Sam thought Dean was dead so it came off as Sam giving up on Dean. And, it didn't help that Amelia and Sam had zero chemistry together also. It was almost painful to watch some of their scenes. On the other side of the coin, they cast a guy that really brought Benny to life and had some amazing chemistry with Jensen, so the awkwardness and wrongness didn't translate as well. Plus, they segregated all the action to Purgatory, which automatically made it more interesting to watch. I just think they thought we would all just follow along and they didn't need to explain themselves to us because we'd been following along for 7 years already.

 

But if Amelia was just replacement!Dean, then why is Sam such a PITA when Dean actually gets back? Sam isn't even with Amelia anymore at that point. He doesn't even have his dog anymore. Also, Amelia was just awful. They didn't even seem to try to make her not awful. Did they think she'd be relatable somehow? I can't imagine how, though, it's not like her life situation or personality or really anything about her was very "everywoman," lol. Idk, it seemed to me like they were trying to trash Sam's character so that they could have his season-arc be him redeeming himself and showing he ~cares~. Or learning to ~care~ or something. But obviously that wasn't going to work given the previous two seasons, where Sam's soul was a Huge! Deal!. Maybe Carver didn't bother to watch S6 and S7, or even possibly S5 somehow, Idk.

 

Benny wasn't entirely successful for me, ironically because he didn't seem like enough of a monster imo. I wish that they'd at least showed some kind of arc or something with him so that his "humanity" made more sense. He didn't even ask or try to get any blood from Dean. Come on. In Benny's place, wouldn't anyone (or, any vampire) at least *try*? Or at least think about turning on Dean after? Like that story of the frog and the scorpion -- Dean is the frog and Benny is the scorpion, so why doesn't Benny ever even seem to consider stinging? That's his nature. There wasn't enough conflict imo.

 

For the Purgatory arc or Sam's Amelia arc I guess, and also for the show altogether -- there's just not enough friction. The "Benny is a vampire" thing is nbd, that Amelia and Sam are messes gets talked about but is really ndb in practical terms...then in the present day, there's nothing organic keeping Sam and Dean from getting along, they just randomly don't know or like each other very much all of a sudden. Again, not enough organic conflict, I guess. Is that what you mean by sanitized?

[DittyDotDot]

Oh yeah, I've always thought S8 was a lot of manufactured conflict, whereas the previous seasons were organic in the sense Sam and Dean are just different people with differing points of view and neither is actually right or wrong, just different. That's what always made the show work, IMO. But S8 began trying to force a conflict where I don't think it organically lives. Of course Dean would be hurt that Sam didn't look for him, but I also think he would've understood Sam trying to let him rest in peace. And, I can see why Sam would be uneasy about Dean coming back from the dead, but I think he'd be more angry at himself for, once again, letting Dean down than he would be at Dean for ruining his perceived "normal." It's like they hit the conflict button, but the conflict was wasn't in the right place at the time.

 

But what I actually meant by sanitized is just that not only everything looked so clean, but the whole tone of the show felt more urban rather than rural. Even the musical choices felt clean and kinda shiny to me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy The Animals and to a lesser extent Supertramp and some of the other groups they chose, but they just don't fit the tone of the show in the same way as Jethro Tull, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Blue Oyster Cult and Bob Seger do, IMO.  It's as though someone wiped it all down with anti-bacterial soap to remove all the grime and atmosphere.

 

 

But if Amelia was just replacement!Dean, then why is Sam such a PITA when Dean actually gets back? Sam isn't even with Amelia anymore at that point. He doesn't even have his dog anymore. Also, Amelia was just awful. They didn't even seem to try to make her not awful. Did they think she'd be relatable somehow?

 

Personally, I don't think we were supposed to like Amelia and want her to stay around. I think we were supposed to feel something was off there and Sam was making this more than it was. I got the impression it was supposed to be two broken people using each other while grieving, but not really wanting each other just the comfort of not having to be alone. And I think that's also how we were supposed to feel about Benny too. I think the original plan was Benny was supposed to be that scorpion you talked about, but in the end didn't feel like they could do that without pissing everyone off. Most of the fandom loved Benny to pieces. I remember lots of people saying the show should kill off Sam so Dean could go hunt happily with Benny at the time. So, I think they changed his outcome due to their worry fans would be angry. That's part of the problem with the current crew, IMO, they put far too much stock in what each faction wants and end up bastardizing their own show in order to try and appease everyone.

[rue721]

Oh yeah, I've always thought S8 was a lot of manufactured conflict, whereas the previous seasons were organic in the sense Sam and Dean are just different people with differing points of view and neither is actually right or wrong, just different. That's what always made the show work, IMO. But S8 began trying to force a conflict where I don't think it organically lives. Of course Dean would be hurt that Sam didn't look for him, but I also think he would've understood Sam trying to let him rest in peace. And, I can see why Sam would be uneasy about Dean coming back from the dead, but I think he'd be more angry at himself for, once again, letting Dean down than he would be at Dean for ruining his perceived "normal." It's like they hit the conflict button, but the conflict was wasn't in the right place at the time.

 

Yeah, I really hate this nonsensical "let's just have discord for no reason" thing. How much angry interpersonal conflict is even desirable on a show in which literally every episode, SOMETHING tries to kill the heroes already? I don't really want them to be at each others' throats in addition to the constant fights to the death with monsters. Disagreement is great, and interesting, I like that they have different POVs. It's to the show's credit, imo, that they've been able to establish characters with such different personalities who haven't become (for the most part!) caricatures or by using bizarre quirks/tics to stand in for actual personality or character differences ("Bones," I'm looking at you!), and to also make it believable that they would be able to work together and care about each other regardless/because of/despite those differences. But them having fundamental personal problems with each other is weird and uncomfortable imo. Mostly because, as a viewer, I care about and like both of them, I don't want them to hate or even be mean to each other! Maybe that's not true for all viewers, but since their relationship is the heart of the show, I don't think that devaluing it is a good idea in general anyway. And also because this isn't S1 -- like you say, we know these characters fairly well by now. So rebooting them into colder, duller versions of themselves seems so bizarre to me. Also, tbh, I think it's sad. I liked Sam and Dean, original flavor! I liked SPN atmosphere, original flavor! Why'd they get rid of it?

 

Though I guess they got rid of SPN and Sam and Dean original flavor, because the falling ratings showed that people in general didn't want it anymore. And the rising ratings from S8 on probably prove that people prefer things this way. Go figure. If only everyone else were as adverse to change as I apparently am! LOL.

 

But what I actually meant by sanitized is just that not only everything looked so clean, but the whole tone of the show felt more urban rather than rural. Even the musical choices felt clean and kinda shiny to me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy The Animals and to a lesser extent Supertramp and some of the other groups they chose, but they just don't fit the tone of the show in the same way as Jethro Tull, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Blue Oyster Cult and Bob Seger do, IMO.  It's as though someone wiped it all down with anti-bacterial soap to remove all the grime and atmosphere.

 

You know what I thought was funny w/r/t the atmosphere seeming sanitized away? How in the most recent episode,

Dean said that John didn't like NYC because he thought it was "dirty." That cracked me up. Of all the problems with a place that John could have, I wouldn't really put "dirty" on the list.

Anyway, yeah, I feel like the tone is generally off and it feels very much like they're on stage sets instead of in an actual world. It also sounds like they're using synths instead of guitar riffs to transition between scenes at this point in the show, though I'm not exactly sure when that switched over, it's not the kind of thing I tend to notice. I really don't understand the desire for that change. What was even the aim? It's not like they made the show itself less grim, they were meanwhile trying to vacuum out all the heart or soul the show had generally, by making the relationship between the mains so bizarrely cold.

 

Also, this is something kind of silly but that starts in this season and that still drives me nuts -- all the interiors seem so spacious and airy. I really liked how claustrophobic-but-also-comfortable the old motel rooms and even the car seemed, and just how there was this sense that Sam and Dean were constantly on top of each other and in each others' space. Then, when one of them was missing, it was like there was this huge empty space where they should have been, it would change the atmosphere so much. Like in the S2 finale, when Sam is dead and Dean is technically alone in the cabin? That was so horrifically lonely. I know a lot of people don't like it because they find it codependent/clingy, but I even liked stuff like when the guys were shackled together (I think it was in Jus in Bello) and had to figure out how to sit down on a bench at the same time. Or, I liked how they were always all up in each others' business about what they were eating or drinking or how they were sleeping or even how much sex they were having! I just liked how they constantly had to adjust to each other and work together within these really tight confines (not just physical confines, I mean generally) and how much of a blessing/curse that legitimately felt like. This is the first season that I feel that aspect of the show is really diminished and sometimes just gone.

 

I remember lots of people saying the show should kill off Sam so Dean could go hunt happily with Benny at the time. So, I think they changed his outcome due to their worry fans would be angry.

 

LOL. That's hilarious. Yeah, it would obviously have been easier and happier for Dean if Sam were just killed, so he could spend his life hunting with this resurrected vampire dude. I wish the show had at least feinted in that direction, just because it's silly. SPN has the most factious fandom I've ever seen, why they even bother trying to appease people Idk. Not to mention, I don't even think that everyone *wants* to be appeased, it's more of an "Only Happy When It Rains" situation for the most part imo.

 

Though I guess Carver is doing something right, because the ratings keep increasing. What's going on with that?

[catrox14]

IMO the ratings fell because SPN was moved to the death slot of Friday night.  Then in s8 it was moved Wednesday after Arrow and then to Tuesday and the ratings went up.

[DittyDotDot]

The ratings were already falling when it got exiled to Fridays--that's one of the reasons it got exiled there in the first place. But, if I recall, the ratings actually held once it was on Friday and that's what got it renewed for S8 and moved to Wednesdays. I think the main reason the ratings have gone up is people are finding it on Netflix. I think it being on the CW has limited its exposure, but Netflix has broadened its audience a lot. It probably has less to do with Carver himself and more to do with people getting swept up in the story and wanting to see it through to the end--or maybe I'm just projecting here.

 

I think it also seems to be picking up a younger demographic these days and I'm not totally sure what's spurring that other than social media.

[catrox14]

Ahhh that makes sense about Netflix.

[DittyDotDot]

So, this one is mostly how I remembered it--kinda slow and mostly talky--its an interesting concept though. I really enjoyed some of the brotherly bits more than I remembered and I think Jensen did some nice frame ups of some of the scenes--the pacing seems off though.

 

Hey, has that actress that played Randa been in another episode? She seems oddly familiar to me.

 

And Sam's looking into going back to college? How's that gonna work exactly? Isn't Sam Winchester dead?

[Goldmoon]

Rue, you have so many good points about the tight spaces that I didn't consciously notice before.  I hate how Sam and Dean are antagonists now, not loving brothers, and over something so contrived.  I miss the back and forth over meals and messing with each other like brothers would.

[thesupremediva1]

Hi everyone, I watched the first season of SPN when it aired 05-06, then moved overseas for two years where it wasn't airing, so it fell off my radar. I saw Baby recently and purchased Netflix for the sole reason of catching up on this show. Until this particular episode, I haven't been disappointed.

 

So having marathoned literally more than 100 hours, I can honestly say the show has gone off the rails and I had to struggle to tolerate this episode. 

 

Retcons and character assassination are glaringly obvious when you binge a show like this. Problems that came to a head for me in this ep (Sorry, Jensen, the writing isn't your fault):

1. Who are these people? It's like bumper cars - characters just coming and going and no real thread to hold it all together. I don't care about this monster of the week.

 

2.... Because you've ruined Sam's character. I prefer Soulless Sam to this. I just keep shouting at the TV that someone needs to show clear motivation and/or deal with the problem they've created, because they've killed the heart of the show. The narrative structure doesn't leave much to play with: Every season, one of them dies. The other mourns poorly, gets a vengeance bug, and searches for the other until their legs give out. Now we've got the "Reunion Hug of Much Angst and Longing" between Benny and Dean?! Sam has some silly girlfriend who gave him a normal life he never had, not even with Jess?! OK, I was patient. I came to this relatively unspoiled about season specifics. I thought there was something larger at play here that would be addressed. It appears I was foolish, and I now want to just give up on this season and save hours of my life. They're clearly into the season now, and the plot is as thin and transparent as it was in ep. 1. I'm out. I don't want to invest.

 

3. It's so brightly lit, even Sam's hair is too light. Sam and Dean are orange. It looks like they've been on a tropical vacation. Maybe Sam and his new girl went to Antigua? I have a hard time believing Dean got a tan in Purgatory - especially since the flashbacks are in grayscale. Considering how sinister I find Sam's behavior and the dark feelings Dean must be having after learning his bro didn't bother looking for him, I find this incongruous and wrong.

 

Does this get any better, or should I skip to season 9 now and save myself the annoyance?

[catrox14]

There are things that happen in the latter half of s8 that informs s9 and IMO there are a few episodes of s8 that I think are excellent. MMV widely though.   

[Demented Daisy]

Don't ask me.  I'd rather watch season 8 than season 9 any day.  I loathe season 9.

[AwesomO4000]

Does this get any better, or should I skip to season 9 now and save myself the annoyance?

 

I have a third and somewhat different opinion. I agree with you about the first half of season 8. I loathed it... and a little warning: You thought this episode was bad? Wait until you get to episodes 5, 6, 9, and 10. In other words things get worse (much worse, in my opinion) until the middle of the season when all of a sudden there's an abrupt shift in tone and storyline, and it's like the first part of the season barely happened. The second half still isn't my favorite, but I like it much better (the Sam character assassination is lessened). There are others who will disagree with me violently on the second half being better, though. Episode 13 was the best for me, but I suggest avoiding episode 15 - trust me.

 

As for season 9, that was opposite of season 8 for me. I liked the first half and thought it was going somewhere interesting, but then midseason came more Sam character assassination for me rather than potential character development for both Sam and Dean, and so despite a couple more good episodes, I was disappointed and was greatly missing season 7 (which I liked a lot). For the most part, things got much better for me in season 10.

 

Long story short - things are probably going to get worse for you in season 8 (if you read ahead in the threads, you'll see mine and others comments to get an idea), especially if you like Sam. My humble suggestion, if you skip ahead to episode 13 (maybe 12, though I have some issues with that one, too) and just forget the first half of the season ever happened, I think you'll like season 8 better. Others may have other potentially better suggestions though.

[Demented Daisy]

I'd watch episode 8 (it has some great comedic moments), but skip the Amelia stuff.  It's ridiculously unimportant.

[AwesomO4000]

I'd watch episode 8 (it has some great comedic moments), but skip the Amelia stuff.  It's ridiculously unimportant.

 

True, I momentarily forgot about "Hunteri Heroici"... probably because of all my hate for the two episodes following it. Actually episode 11 has a moment or two also, but likely not enough, imo, for me to recommend it. The last scene is by far my favorite part, anyway.

 

Also true about the Amelia stuff, but I'd go so far as to say that the entire Amelia arc was ridiculously unimportant... and that's when it wasn't being soap opera cliched or downright nonsensical. In my opinion anyway.

 

Edited to add: Oh, and I almost forgot annoying and mostly mind-numbingly boring.

Edited January 14, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

Does this get any better, or should I skip to season 9 now and save myself the annoyance?

 

I feel for you, thesupremediva1, I really do! S8 is some very hard whiplash to survive. I almost gave up on the show in S8, too. Does it get better? I'd say it's all levels of degrees. Some things get a bit better while others get worse. I agree with the demented one, Hunter Heroici is rather enjoyable and there are some good things in Blood Brother. To a certain degree, I also agree the second half of the season is somewhat better--at least the bickering and sniping is kept to a minimum anyway--and there's Everybody Hates Hitler and The Greatest Escapist to look forward to.

 

It just seems like, for every episode that's pretty good, there's two I could live without, anymore--but every now and then they do get it right. And remember, you can always come here to vent when it gets too rough. We don't mind, we do it too. ;)

[thesupremediva1]

 

And remember, you can always come here to vent when it gets too rough. We don't mind, we do it too. ;)

 

I appreciate that so, so much. I really dove head-first into these seasons and perhaps my reactions are a bit more severe than they would be if I'd watched in real time.

 

Still don't love this season, but everything from episode 17 on has been...palatable, shall we say. 

 

It's a great comfort to have other folks off of which to bounce my thoughts and reaction... otherwise I feel like I'm going crazy. I know no one else who watches this show - their loss!

[AwesomO4000]

And remember, you can always come here to vent when it gets too rough. We don't mind, we do it too. ;)

I appreciate that so, so much. I really dove head-first into these seasons and perhaps my reactions are a bit more severe than they would be if I'd watched in real time.

 

Still don't love this season, but everything from episode 17 on has been...palatable, shall we say. 

 

It's a great comfort to have other folks off of which to bounce my thoughts and reaction... otherwise I feel like I'm going crazy. I know no one else who watches this show - their loss!

 

Yes, and for your "I'm so angry/annoyed/disappointed I could spit" moments there's the "Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions" thread (amusingly subtitled "You All Suck" - a reference to a future Dean quote.) for any real ranting you may want to do. You can also put any WTF reactions to show stuff there and likely get a sympathetic ear from someone who agrees with you.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Continuing my trek through the seasons, I got to this one last night.  I think I'm going to go back and comment on eps 1 and 2 when I'm done here, but first, I wanted to say, that I'm not hating this season so far as much as I expected to hate it from all the bad reviews I'd read ahead of time.  I'm not really seeing the Sam character assassination about which I've seen complaints.  Now, yes, I agree that the S8 ep1 had some weird-bad-that-ain't-right stuff in it (namely Sam not looking for Dean at all, not even a cursory Google search...but I'll comment more on that in the ep 1 thread) but the rest, about Sam wanting a 'normal' life I don't think is so out of character.  Didn't we already see that a few times?  He left the hunting life and went off to Stanford for 4 years - without hunting all that time until Dean showed up in the Pilot, I think is what we were led to believe.  Also, I seem to remember a flashback when Sam was younger and took off and lived by himself for a couple weeks?  Hadn't he wanted a 'normal' life then also?  What I'm not so certain about is Sam's definition of a 'normal' life.  In fact, at this point, I'm not so sure Sam even really knows what that is.  I think what he thinks is a normal life, is not necessarily a normal life.  

Anyhoo - One thing that did bug me in this ep, in particular - and bugged me in ep 1 when he said it - was the "I found something I've never had before" line.  In ep 1, he didn't elaborate any further, and I speculated that he meant Love, (since he was shown to be thinking of Amelia at the time, but then why was it so easy for him to walk out on her in the middle of the night?)  But that didn't make sense, because: Jess?  Hello?  He'd said at one point earlier in one season (don't remember which) that he was going to ask Jess to marry him, so how could it be that he found something with Amelia that he never had with Jess?  But here, in this ep, he clarified further and added, "a normal life".  Which, again doesn't make a lot of sense when his time at Stanford and with Jess is taken into account.  So I agree with those above who pointed that out.  

Now about that picnic flashback: I can actually believe that Sam never really got a birthday cake/celebration.  And I'm not throwing shade on Dean here.  Because I'm also fairly sure that after Mary died, Dean never got one either.  And it wasn't Dean's job to provide it.  He was a kid also, the brother.  Let's face it, Dean had to steal the Christmas presents that one flashback we saw - and have we seen other "Christmas" flashbacks from when they were younger?  It could have been a one off.  I certainly don't think it was something that happened every year.  When they were in Heaven, Sam made a comment about how he'd never had a real Thanksgiving meal until he was in jr. high at that girl's house.  Now, if they never had a proper Thanksgiving meal - and Dean had to cobble together some sort of Christmas celebration while John was gone (I don't imagine he did it the years John was perhaps passed out on the couch in the motel room, because John probably wouldn't have liked it.) - birthday celebrations would have been even lower in priority, imo.  

All that being said, I really didn't get the feeling that the "something he never had before" was about Amelia per se.  (not feeling the chemistry there.)  Like I said, if it was about her, I wouldn't think it would have been so easy for him to walk out on her in the middle of the night, and it didn't look like he left a note or told her where he was going.  Looked like he sneaked out.  I also don't get the impression that it's all about a 'normal' life, because of the years with Jess thing.  It seems to me, it's more about having someone care about him and take care of him.  And please, don't make this about Dean not doing it either.  Of course Dean did.  But again, Dean is his brother.  Not the same as having a significant other with whom to share life's moments big and small.  (But once again, the 'never had before' doesn't quite hold water because: Jess.  IMO, it would have been better if he'd said, 'something he hasn't had in a long time' or 'since Jess died'.  That would have made more sense.  Maybe the show was trying to build up this romance with Amelia to epic proportions?  If so, it hasn't worked for me so far - not with the sneaking out and general lack of chemistry anyway.)  Dean at least had a few years of knowing what it was like to have a real mother when he was young.  Sam never got Mary slicing him a piece of pie.  And I don't mean for this to come across as 'poor wittle Sammy'.  I'm just saying that I kind of understand what he may be feeling here.  Just as I understand Dean's pov also.  

I also think there's a kernel of truth in the statement Sam makes to Dean about how he'd be better off not having to explain himself to anyone.  (The 'alone' part is all wrong.)  Mostly, i think, Dean has been the one to be shown as going renegade.  Sam's usually been the rule-follower, so again, I don't see that as terribly out of character.  

Now the fact that Sam wants his time to count for something: Well, of Course, hunting counts!  It counts for a whole lot!  But here, what I think Sam may be inferring is the desire that many men (and women?) feel to leave some sort of legacy.  And while what they do as hunters does count - it may seem to Sam, after all they've already been through - that there really isn't much legacy.  Because, let's face it, all the bad shit just keeps happening over and over and over again.  Kill one demon, there's another worse to take it's place.  Stop one apocalypse, another pops up.  Not much of a legacy if one looks at it from Sam's POV at that moment, especially when the majority of people don't even know what they do to save humanity and they're on the run from the law, etc.   

I don't think Sam ever really has gotten the same satisfaction from hunting that Dean has.  So, once again, I don't think it's out of character for him to say it.

Whew!  This got a longer than I meant it to.  On to some fun, random observations/comments:

• I liked Dean and the doc making flirty eyes at each other.  Cuties!  I wish we'd seen more of her.  And him.  Together.  
• I do love the way Dean's face just lights up when he gets silly excited about something.  Usually, it's been sex.  But this time, it was the translation app.
• Did Dean bring muffins back to the hotel?   After giving Sam shade for shopping at the farmer's market?  I'm totally going to wank that they were healthy whole wheat bran muffins too.  Just because I can.  :)
• Why are they sharing an email account?  You'd think they'd have separate ones.  Yahoo is free, boys.
• I thought the letters to Betsy were sweet.  Is that weird?  It reminded me of letters soldiers used to write home to their sweethearts in WWI and WWII.  
• I also thought it was interesting that Randa said she was shy and sweet until the heart transplant, and now she was practically an Amazon.  Whew girl!  Too bad about the sacrificing people and eating their hearts though.  
• The picnic flashback was kind of weird due to the timing: Sam is looking for Amelia in the park, like she suddenly disappeared and he couldn't find her.  Then the dog runs off (did he seriously name her/him Riot?  Why?  Cause Amelia 'read him the riot act' when he met her?  Ugh.  I never took Sam for stupid sticky sweet sentimentality like that.  Heart felt meaningful sentimentality, sure.  So, I'm going to say the crappy name was Amelia's idea.) and he finds Amelia with the picnic all laid out.  How did she have time to do that?  Unless Sam was looking for her for a long time before he found her.  In which case, it was just lucky that he wandered in the correct direction, huh?
• I am not liking Sam's hair this season.  Dean's looks fantastic.

Edited June 1, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Continuing my trek through the seasons, I got to this one last night.  I think I'm going to go back and comment on eps 1 and 2 when I'm done here, but first, I wanted to say, that I'm not hating this season so far as much as I expected to hate it from all the bad reviews I'd read ahead of time.  I'm not really seeing the Sam character assassination about which I've seen complaints.  Now, yes, I agree that the S8 ep1 had some weird-bad-that-ain't-right stuff in it (namely Sam not looking for Dean at all, not even a cursory Google search...but I'll comment more on that in the ep 1 thread) but the rest, about Sam wanting a 'normal' life I don't think is so out of character.  Didn't we already see that a few times?  He left the hunting life and went off to Stanford for 4 years - without hunting all that time until Dean showed up in the Pilot, I think is what we were led to believe.  Also, I seem to remember a flashback when Sam was younger and took off and lived by himself for a couple weeks?  Hadn't he wanted a 'normal' life then also?  What I'm not so certain about is Sam's definition of a 'normal' life.  In fact, at this point, I'm not so sure Sam even really knows what that is.  I think what he thinks is a normal life, is not necessarily a normal life.

Now the fact that Sam wants his time to count for something: Well, of Course, hunting counts!  It counts for a whole lot!  But here, what I think Sam may be inferring is the desire that many men (and women?) feel to leave some sort of legacy.  And while what they do as hunters does count - it may seem to Sam, after all they've already been through - that there really isn't much legacy.  Because, let's face it, all the bad shit just keeps happening over and over and over again.  Kill one demon, there's another worse to take it's place.  Stop one apocalypse, another pops up.  Not much of a legacy if one looks at it from Sam's POV at that moment, especially when the majority of people don't even know what they do to save humanity and they're on the run from the law, etc.   

I don't think Sam ever really has gotten the same satisfaction from hunting that Dean has.  So, once again, I don't think it's out of character for him to say it.

I chopped up your post a little, so I hope you don't mind. And bolded the main parts I'm going to address.

As for Sam wanting a "normal life" being out of character, I guess it might depend on who is answering and maybe if they've binged the seasons or not. I guess for me, having watched it from the beginning live, it seems really out of character now. Yes, Sam has a few times wanted a "normal life," but most of that was either pre-series - such as the flashback you mentioned - or way back in seasons 1 and 2. for me, Sam wanting a "normal life" only makes sense if they are returning the character back to his season 1 or maybe early season 2 state. Dean himself had expressed the desire for a normal life and/or for his hunting days to be over a few times throughout the series, and somewhat ironically, it was more recent than the last real time Sam expressed such a desire. Sam has also - in my opinion - showed just as much satisfaction in doing the job and in considering the job important as Dean has in the past - also examples below.

And I guess for me it seems so much of a character assassination, because not only does it contradict about 5 seasons of character growth - examples below - but then they have Sam being all pissy about it like this is something he's desired and told Dean about forever, but Dean is somehow taking it away from him... when in reality Sam left Amelia before he even knew that Dean was back. It makes no sense and is just the writers making Sam act like a jerk to create "drama" at the expense of Sam's character.

A few examples of Sam no longer wanting normal and/or getting satisfaction out of hunting:

• Early season 2 "Everybody Loves A Clown": "We don't want school. We don't want regular. We want this." When Dean asks him if Sam was just saying this for their cover story or if he meant it, because didn't he want to go back to school when this was all over, Sam answered that he was having second thoughts about leaving the job (hunting).
• "What Is and What Should Never Be": Sam listens to Dean's description of what his jinn induced world was like and tells Dean that he is glad instead that they are close and "It's worth it, Dean. It is. It's not fair, and... you know, it hurts like hell, but... it's worth it."
• In "It's a Terrible Life," Sam Wesson doesn't like his "normal life" and feels like he should be doing something more. The hunt he and "Dean Smith" go on sparks that "something more" for him, and he quits to pursue a life of hunting.
• By "Swap Meat" Sam is pretty much not even considering wanting a normal life any more. After being happy to get his body back, he lies to the teen witch when he says that he wishes he had his life. He tells Dean the truth. "I totally lied. That kid's life sucked ass." And adds for good measure: "All that apple-pie, family crap? It's stressful. Trust me – we didn't miss a damn thing." It's Dean who quietly adds "Or we don't know what we're missing." Dean follows up this thought when in "99 Problems" he tells Lisa "But I wanted you to know…that when I do picture myself happy…it’s with you. And the kid."
• Soulless Sam also hunts, even though he could likely do something else.
• From the "French Mistake"
  • Dean: You know that if we drop Virgil, get the key, then this might be it. We might be stuck here.
    Sam: No, we'll figure out a way back.
    Dean: Yeah, you wouldn't be that broken up if we didn't, though.
    Sam: What? Don't be stupid.
    Dean: Well, I'm just saying. No hell below us, above us only sky.
    Sam: Dean, our friends are back there.
    Dean: Yeah, but here, you got a pretty good life. I mean, back home, the hits have been coming since you were 6 months old. You got to admit, being a-a bazillionare, married to Ruby, the whole package. It's no contest.
    Sam: No, you know, you were right. We just don't mean the same thing here. I mean, we're not even brothers here, man.
  • When they get back to reality Sam is happy to be back, smiling when he knocks on the wood of Bobby's house and it's solid under his hand - not fake like on the set. "It's real. Nice." It's Dean who gripes a bit.
• In season 7, I don't remember the episode, but Sam either says or hints at the fact that hunting is what feels "normal" for him. It helps him keep his hallucinations at bay. When Sam is dying in "The Born-Again Identity" part of what keeps him going is helping the girl who is being haunted by her brother and solving that case for her and getting rid of the ghost.

And I'm sure there are others... So in my opinion, by the time season 8 rolled around it had been a long time since Sam had ever wanted "normal." I also disagree with you that Sam doesn't get as much satisfaction from hunting as Dean. In some ways, I think he gets more. A hunter is what Dean is, but more often than not (at least until season 8), Sam seems to choose hunting. For me, Sam has found meaning and satisfaction in hunting for a long time, and it seems somewhat odd that after a win where they again saved the world, Sam would all of a sudden be claiming that hunting isn't enough of a legacy like it's something to look down on. Since when? He's been telling Dean that what they do is "worth it" for years. It is just character assassination in my opinion to suggest otherwise without giving some real reason for Sam's total change in opinion on this and in his seemingly out of nowhere renewed desire for normal.

Maybe it doesn't seem as such when the seasons are viewed on a binge watch, because the time between episodes is much less, but in real time, when season 8 came along, it had literally been (at least) 5 years since Sam had wanted "normal," and to me that's a lot of character growth to be forgetting or backtracking from with little explanation for the change in attitude. Even a sentence or two about how Sam had become tired of fighting when it never got them anywhere but killed, or he just couldn't face hunting alone, or it never seemed to do any good, or something... and definitely forget all of the "I've never had normal before" crap, because 1) it was entirely not true and 2) Sam had said multiple times that he didn't even want normal, he was happy with his life the way it was, and that he liked making a difference by hunting, so wanting "normal" made no sense - in my opinion anyway. And to want me to just forget 5 previous seasons of character growth and just "go with it" with no explanation? Sorry. It's not going to happen for me.

So between that and Sam's seemingly cold attitude towards Dean and that he didn't look for him - and defended that position seemingly like "of course I didn't look for you, duh, that's perfectly normal behavior for me" (which, no, it's not) - for me this was very much character assassination.

[DittyDotDot]

@RulerofallIsurvey, I didn't really have a problem with the first couple episodes and still don't, TBH. I mean, yeah, there was wasted potential and the whole tone of the show was off, but I chalked it up to the changing of the gaurd and didn't get too caught up in it all. I didn't think of it as character assassination as much as the time jump forward had me missing information. But, I also figured that information would be revealed and it all would make sense. It wasn't till the mid-season finale where I just threw up my hands in exasperation and yelled, "who are these people?"It was Citizen Fang that drove me to sign up and start posting over at TWoP. I had lurked for the better part of a year, but all the sudden I felt like I needed to say some stuff.

So, while I agree with you to a certain extent, I'm curious to see your reaction for stuff yet to come.

Edited June 1, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

This is a good point, DittyDotDot... It's tough for me to look at it now without also thinking of it in terms of what I know came after, but that being said, I think for me it must have been an almost immediate feeling, because I remember actually skipping episodes at some point in early season 8 - something I had never done in the 7 previous seasons. To this day, in fact, I have never seen "Bitten" - one of the episodes I skipped - and I think that is episode 4, so I think whatever my beef was, it was early in the season, and likely included this episode and what I saw here.

Also that being said, "Citizen Fang" definitely bugged me also... and considering it was, I think, the first full episode that I came back to the show to give it a try after my stopping watching (I sort of peeked in once or twice during commercials from whatever I watched instead, and what I saw of "Hunter Heroici" convinced me to try again the next week), I was kinda sorry that I came back, and promptly stopped watching again for a bit.

And, I agree with Ditty on the last point: I'm also interested to see, RulerofallIsurvey, if after the next few episodes you still think that the tone, direction, etc of the show is all okay.

[catrox14]

It's kind of weird for me. I came into SPN as of What's Up, Tiger Mommy. The first literal scene of the show I ever saw was Cas and Dean reuniting in Purgatory.  So I didn't keep watching for reasons unrelated to anything but not enough interest. I started watching back in 2013 from the beginning and then started watching live with s9.  So I didn't have 10 years of live watching but binging off netflix for my viewing.

I Sam leaving hunting was more or less in character. As others have noted, he's left before and came back. So on one hand I believe if he truly thought Dean was dead that he would move on to a new life.

It would have been better if they had shown Sam conduct ONE "Search the Web" attempt. If we saw that and then Sam just flips and says I'm out, I would believe it. And heck even him not looking for Kevin, was crappy BUT again...if Sam was done, he was done.

My biggest beef is that Sam/Jared came off as though Dean being back was a fucking burden to Sam and he sure didn't seem happy that Dean was alive. He seemed ANGRY with Dean.So for me that colors much of how I see Sam in s8. 

[AwesomO4000]

Ah, yes, Sam not looking for Kevin. That was another one of the things that lead me to: character assassination and why I stopped watching. Because really, in my opinion, there was no reason they should've had Sam act that way. It wasn't necessary and was pretty much trashing Sam for a cheap joke. I think if they'd done something like that to Dean's character - had Dean abandon Kevin and shrug his shoulders about it - there would've been an uproar.

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I Sam leaving hunting was more or less in character. As others have noted, he's left before and came back. So on one hand I believe if he truly thought Dean was dead that he would move on to a new life.

I think maybe I might've bought it if it hadn't been such a long time since the last time Sam seriously mentioned leaving hunting, and if Sam hadn't been shown to gravitate towards hunting again and again since that time. Even when Dean was in hell and Sam was an alcoholic, suicidal mess, part of what kept him going - in addition to the revenge - was that he could save people from being possessed. Sam talked with such passion to Dean about all the people he had saved with his psychic exorcising abilities. And then when he was soulless, even soulless Sam hunted, so something in his brain even when soulless returned to that and found something in it. And in season 7, hunting is what seemed to keep Sam grounded. He wasn't in it for Dick Roman - that was Dean's thing. Sam was in it for the regular hunts, and those are what gave him purpose and made him feel useful.

That Sam went from that to basically (paraphrase) "I didn't feel it was my problem anymore" - to me - seemed rather jarring, but I seem to be in the minority there, so...

Edited June 2, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ah, yes, Sam not looking for Kevin. That was another one of the things that lead me to: character assassination and why I stopped watching. Because really, in my opinion, there was no reason they should've had Sam act that way. It wasn't necessary and was pretty much trashing Sam for a cheap joke. I think if they'd done something like that to Dean's character - had Dean abandon Kevin and shrug his shoulders about it - there would've been an uproar.

Now, I agree with that.  And that was one thing that I was going to comment on in the ep1 thread (which I said I'd do and still haven't done yet.)  As I was trying to keep the post in this thread about this ep, I didn't say much about that.  But since it's already been referenced a couple times, I'll go ahead and say, Sam not even looking for Kevin - or Dean for that matter (like I said in my original post, not even a quick Google search?) seemed REALLY out of character.  If they'd shown that he at least tried - and then hit the dog and met Amelia and subsequently gave up - that would have made much more sense.  

Quote

I think maybe I might've bought it if it hadn't been such a long time since the last time Sam seriously mentioned leaving hunting, and if Sam hadn't been shown to gravitate towards hunting again and again since that time. Even when Dean was in hell and Sam was an alcoholic, suicidal mess, part of what kept him going - in addition to the revenge - was that he could save people from being possessed. Sam talked with such passion to Dean about all the people he had saved with his psychic exorcising abilities. And then when he was soulless, even soulless Sam hunted, so something in his brain even when soulless returned to that and found something in it. And in season 7, hunting is what seemed to keep Sam grounded. He wasn't in it for Dick Roman - that was Dean's thing. Sam was in it for the regular hunts, and those are what gave him purpose and made him feel useful.

I think you may have a point about the binge watching versus watching in real time.  For me, things are much more compressed.  And while I'm not saying my memory is any better (it ain't!) it hasn't been as long for me when some of this stuff happened as for others who watched live.  

I don't really count Soulless Sam as what real Sam would do though.  I mean, he was Soulless.  Soulless Sam also didn't look for Dean when he was abducted by aliens to have sex with the hippy chick.  Real Sam wouldn't do that.  So I don't think it was that hunting has so much meaning for Sam that he did it even when he was Soulless.  I think Soulless Sam just liked killing things.  ymmv.  

Another thing about the rest of season 6/season 7 when Sam was having hallucinations - I completely understand that hunting helped keep him sane and keep it together.  But that was rather extraordinary circumstances.  IMO, all else being equal (not hallucinating Lucifer or demon blood addicted or soullessness) Sam wanting out of the hunting life is not so out of character.  And like I did say above (I know you bolded the parts you wanted to address) one thing is that I don't think what Sam thinks is Normal is what he really wants as a 'normal' life.   For example, you mentioned It's a Terrible Life - yeah, he didn't like that life.  He didn't even get to choose that life.  Just like he didn't really get to choose the hunting life, so maybe that's why he keeps rebelling against it?  When allowed to choose, he does come back, but still wants something more.   And that's what I'm seeing so far.

And like you and @DittyDotDot said, I may very well change my mind after a few more episodes.  :)

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My biggest beef is that Sam/Jared came off as though Dean being back was a fucking burden to Sam and he sure didn't seem happy that Dean was alive. He seemed ANGRY with Dean.So for me that colors much of how I see Sam in s8. 

Wow, so this is probably going to be REALLY unpopular (buckle up!) but here goes: in this episode - and So far (as this is only ep 3 of the season) I'm not seeing this reaction from Sam and/or Dean either.  Hm, let me try to explain.  I think Sam was Really Happy to see Dean back.  But if I recall, Dean immediately started asking about Kevin which led to why didn't Sam look for Dean (or Kevin) which led to Dean being disappointed and angry and dismissive of Sam finding some sort of happiness the past year without him which immediately put Sam on the defensive.  Cause, let's face it, even though Sam should have at least tried to look for Dean, when Sam went to Hell, Dean found some sort of happiness that year with Lisa - and yes I know that's because he promised Sam that he would and Sam didn't tell him he was back - but think about this: even when Soulless, Sam allowed Dean to have that year of happiness/normality.  And I think Sam was happy for Dean that he'd had that.  Dean was not happy that Sam had been happy without him.  Rightfully so when it came to Kevin and not looking for him (Dean) AT ALL.  But also not rightfully so when it comes across like Nothing Sam did was good and Sam had no right to even try to be happy whatsoever.  And that's how Dean was coming across to me - especially when he threw Jess in Sam's face in the first ep and brought Kevin up at the Farmer's market.  'Cause, it's perfectly okay for Dean to stop hunting to get a burger, but not for Sam to buy fresh tomatoes?  Come on.

I don't know if any of that came out right.  It makes so much more sense in my head.  :)  Anyway, so far, I think Sam only seemed angry at Dean when Dean was making him feel guilty about not hunting or looking for Kevin.  Which, I think is understandable.  To be honest, I think it's a bit of character assassination for Dean that he would be such a nag about it, at least after they found Kevin and Kevin took off on his own.  And that he would be so dismissive of Sam for settling down with a girl, when that's exactly what Dean did with Lisa.  All that to say, Dean is coming across as very judgmental of Sam (in a bad way), and I think that's out of character for him.  

ETA: An especially ooc moment for me was when Dean was so dismissive/derogatory toward Sam about looking into going back to college.  Like suddenly learning is a bad thing?  Has Dean ever been shown to think or feel that way before?  I mean, yes, he made fun of Sam, the college boy, in Season 1, but I never got the impression that he really thought Sam going to college was stupid and a waste of time.  It was just typical brotherly teasing.  And honestly - it's not a very good message for the show in general either.  

Edited June 2, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
The grammar police found me!

[DittyDotDot]

55 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

ETA: An especially ooc moment for me was when Dean was so dismissive/derogatory toward Sam about looking into going back to college.  Like suddenly learning is a bad thing?  Has Dean ever been shown to think or feel that way before?  I mean, yes, he made fun of Sam, the college boy, in Season 1, but I never got the impression that he really thought Sam going to college was stupid and a waste of time.  It was just typical brotherly teasing.  And honestly - it's not a very good message for the show in general either.  

I don't know it was Dean so much thinking learning was bad as much as Dean just not understanding how Sam could just hang up and walk away again. Dean has a harder time separating himself from the job and, I think, he's a bit annoyed Sam is thinking of ditching him again just when he got back. Dean said it in this episode; he feels his place is driving down crazy street next to Sam and doesn't understand how Sam wouldn't feel that too.

Also, Dean's kinda doing the passive aggressive angry thing right now. Dean doesn't want to be angry, IMO, and I think he understands why Sam didn't look for him and doesn't necessarily begrudge Sam for trying to live a life when he thought Dean was dead. But, Dean wasn't dead and he's having a hard time moving past that fact right now. So, he's kinda picking at Sam right now for anything he says or does. Which is totally understandable, but they're kinda stuck in tight quarters; that approach doesn't tend to end pretty for these guys.

Edited June 2, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wow, so this is probably going to be REALLY unpopular (buckle up!) but here goes: in this episode - and So far (as this is only ep 3 of the season) I'm not seeing this reaction from Sam and/or Dean either.  Hm, let me try to explain.  I think Sam was Really Happy to see Dean back.  But if I recall, Dean immediately started asking about Kevin which led to why didn't Sam look for Dean (or Kevin) which led to Dean being disappointed and angry and dismissive of Sam finding some sort of happiness the past year without him which immediately put Sam on the defensive.  Cause, let's face it, even though Sam should have at least tried to look for Dean, when Sam went to Hell, Dean found some sort of happiness that year with Lisa - and yes I know that's because he promised Sam that he would and Sam didn't tell him he was back - but think about this: even when Soulless, Sam allowed Dean to have that year of happiness/normality.  And I

That's an inapt comparison that I see made often.

They only seem the same on the surface.

Dean went to Lisa because of Sam's deathbed demand/promise. Dean did everything he could to get Sam out of Hell whilst trying to fulfill a promise he made to Sam to live a life that Sam thought he should. Not that Dean necessarily truly wanted himself. Sam and Bobby lied to  Dean for a year. That wasn't Sam or Bobby doing Dean a favor that was IMO Bobby especially projecting Bobby's needs onto Dean. Bobby and Sam decided what was best for Dean without bothering to ask Dean himself.

Dean was deeply hurt that Sam didn't look for him but IMO it was Sam not looking out for Kevin that pissed Dean off the most. Dean had just come back from a year of war in a Hell dimension with monsters trying to kill him 24/7. He wasn't okay at all.  Sam mocked Dean about the burger which was IMO insensitive of Sam at that point.

Quote

 

Dean: How long?
Bobby: Look --
Dean: How long?!
Bobby: All year.
Dean: Oh, you got to be kidding me.
Bobby: And I'd do it again.
Dean: Why?!
Bobby: Because you got out, Dean! You walked away from the life. And I was so damn grateful, you got no idea.
Dean: Do you have any clue what walking away meant for me?
Bobby: Yeah -- a woman and a kid and not getting your guts ripped out at age 30. That's what it meant.
Dean: That woman and that kid -- I went to them because you asked me to.
Bobby: Good.
Dean: Good for who? I showed up on their doorstep half out of my head with grief. God knows why they even let me in. I drank too much. I had nightmares. I looked everywhere. I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.
Sam: You promised you'd leave it alone.
Dean: Of course I didn't leave it alone! Sue me! A damn year? You couldn't put me out of my misery?
Bobby: Look, I get it wasn't easy. But that's life! And it's as close to happiness as I've ever seen a hunter get. It ain't like I wanted to lie to you, son. But you were out, Dean.
Dean: Do I look out to you?

 

 

So yeah I just don't see the hypocrisy when the situations aren't really equivalent.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well, I did say it would probably be an unpopular opinion.  :/

And while I expected disagreement, I didn't expect my own character assassination.  I don't think it's an entirely inapt comparison at all.  I get YMMV.  I believe I even mentioned the promise Dean made in my original text, and I took that into account.  But I do not remember being shown that Dean was doing every thing he could to get Sam out of hell that year. He said so, after the fact, but we were never shown that.  Not like we were shown when Sam was trying to get Dean out of Hell.  So that one sentence didn't have the same impact for me.  Now, don't take that the wrong way.  I'm not insulting Dean.  I know he went to Lisa because he'd promised Sam.  I'm not sure that he wouldn't have ended up there on his own anyway though.  And I thought we were originally NOT shown Dean trying to break Sam out because he'd promised Sam not to (try to break him out of Hell.)  I don't agree that it was only because of Bobby that Sam left Dean alone for that year.  Sam was Soulless.  He didn't give damn what Bobby thought was best for Dean anymore than he cared about Dean getting abducted by aliens.  I'm not particularly sure what Soulless Sam's motives were for that.  But, on one hand, it doesn't really matter what his motives were, when the end result was what it was.  

Besides, it's not like Dean hated that year.  Esp. when as @AwesomO4000 pointed out, he told Lisa "But I wanted you to know…that when I do picture myself happy…it’s with you. And the kid."  So Dean WAS happy that year.  (And Hey! Guess What?  When he pictures himself happy, it's not hunting with Sam, if Dean himself is to be believed.)  Sure, Dean had nightmares.  You  think Sam didn't have nightmares the year Dean was in Purgatory?  I bet he did, even if they weren't shown.  

I didn't say there was any hypocrisy, and that is not what I was attempting to convey.  I said, I thought it was out of character for Dean to behave the way he's been with respect to Sam.  There's a difference.  I am honestly not putting down either character here, so no need to jump to their defense when what I was trying to say was obviously misinterpreted.  I'm not blaming either brother for the way they are acting right now.  Sam mocked Dean.  And hurt Dean's feelings.  Dean mocked Sam.  And hurt Sam's feelings.  Neither is altogether right and neither is altogether wrong.  

Edited June 2, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
for clarification, I hope.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

ut I do not remember being shown that Dean was doing every thing he could to get Sam out of hell that year. He said so, after the fact, but we were never shown that.  Not like we were shown when Sam was trying to get Dean out of Hell.

Just because the show opted to not show Dean doing those things does not mean he didn't do them. Dean lying about that does not comport with Dean's history of Save Sammy including selling his soul for Sam's and pretty much everything else he's ever done to save Sam. I just can't find any reason to think Dean lied about that. So yeah just gonna agree to disagree.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

And just because the show (thus far at least) has opted not to show that Sam had nightmares during the past year does not mean he didn't have them.  So the fact that Dean had them the year Sam was in Hell does not make him the 'better' brother.  

So Agree to Disagree then.  IMO, neither is the 'better' brother.  They both have unique strengths.  They both have flaws.  Once again, I am not trying to insult Dean, so I really don't think there's anything here for which he needs defending.  I understand and fully support his POV.  I also understand and fully support Sam's POV.  (Except for the not looking for Dean and Kevin AT ALL.  But I already said that.)  

[catrox14]

?? Okay I don't know why you took this to "better brother". I never said nor implied that. I'm explaining why I don't think Dean was lying about this given his history with Sam.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well, color me confused.  One reason being, it's the next morning and I've slept now (though still on my morning coffee binge) and have completely lost the gist of the conversation.  

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

why I don't think Dean was lying about this given his history with Sam.

Refresh my memory (I did say it wasn't good!) what "this" do you think I said Dean was lying to Sam about?  

Oh wait, I went and reread upthread.  I never said I thought Dean was lying about looking for Sam.  I said the show never explicitly SHOWED it.  So to me, it didn't have the impact of Sam searching for Dean when Dean went to Hell because those actions were shown.  YMMV, of course.  It also smacks a bit of a retcon to me, since it was only stated after the fact, but never shown in any of the flashbacks.  But that's not on the character at all.  That's on the show.  You know, I think that would be a bit like Sam telling Dean now that he did look for him briefly after he went to Purgatory.  Would you believe it?  He just didn't tell him, because Reasons.  And yeah, the show could totally do that.  But as a viewer, would you believe it?  I haven't even watched all of the seasons, and I wouldn't.

My 'better brother' comment was because that's how a lot of defense of Dean and/or Sam comes across to me - and not just yours, so please don't take that personally.  When I read some of the comments, it feels an awful lot like some think they have to prove one is 'better' than the other in order to justify their behaviors.  And in doing so, the other brother invariably gets torn down.  I'm tired of that.   That's all I'm saying.  I have repeatedly stated that I am NOT trying to insult Dean.  And I have definitely NOT justified Sam not looking for him or Kevin.  

Edited June 2, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
And and and: too many ands.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

wait, I went and reread upthread.  I never said I thought Dean was lying about looking for Sam.  I said the show never explicitly SHOWED it.  So to me, it didn't have the impact of Sam searching for Dean when Dean went to Hell because those actions were shown.  YMMV, of course.  It also smacks a bit of a retcon to me, since it was only stated after the fact, but never shown in any of the flashbacks.  But that's not on the character at all.  That's on the show.  You know, I think that would be a bit like Sam telling Dean now that he did look for him briefly after he went to Purgatory.  Would you believe it?  He just didn't tell him, because Reasons.  And yeah, the show could totally do that.  But as a viewer, would you believe it?  I haven't even watched all of the seasons, and I wouldn't.

 

That's the tell vs show of SPN. It happens all the time. Exposition is not always satisfying storytelling but it is textually telling the story.

It seems to me the TELL in 6.1 was Dean telling Sam and Bobby that he looked for a way to get Sam out of the Cage. Neither Bobby nor Sam refuted his statement and they were actually upset with him for doing so. Dean's history supports the claim that Dean made here. Showing Dean doing what he said he did would support his words. Showing Dean doing the opposite of that would be a retcon.

Conversely, in 08.02 the TELL of Sam saying he fixed up the car and drove because he thought everyone was dead. There was more TELL with because Sam apologized on screen to Kevin for not looking for him. I don't know why Sam would apologize to Kevin for not looking for him, if he had in fact looked for him and/or Dean? Showing Sam looking for Dean and Kevin would be a retcon

[DittyDotDot]

On 6/1/2016 at 1:13 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The picnic flashback was kind of weird due to the timing: Sam is looking for Amelia in the park, like she suddenly disappeared and he couldn't find her.  Then the dog runs off [...] and he finds Amelia with the picnic all laid out.  How did she have time to do that?  Unless Sam was looking for her for a long time before he found her.  In which case, it was just lucky that he wandered in the correct direction, huh?

Heh, timetable issues again! 

Sorry, something in another thread reminded me I had an observation about this, but got sidetracked. Anyhoo, I recently re-watched Dream a Little Dream of Me and I do find it interesting how this sequences kinda hearkens back to Dean's dream of Lisa in that episode. Makes even more sense why so many of us speculated that Sam's flashbacks, and the whole Amelia storyline, might turn out to be dreams in the end.

Edited June 3, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[GirlyGeek]

Hate hate hate

Hate this episode. Hate this Season 8 nonsense.  Hate these Revenants that are calling themselves Sam and Dean.  Dean's being passive aggressive and the writing has him going way overboard (Yay hunting! Hunt all the time!  All we need is us! Normal life? Why would anyone want that?) and then he's just picking, picking, picking at Sam (you remember Kevin?  Hey guess you missed that during your 'time off'...).  And Sam's just NOT SAM.  He's a whiny, mopey, asshole.  I'm sorry, but he IS acting like Dean returning to the land of the living somehow means Dean pissed in Sam's cheerios for all time.

Sam's character assassination is the worst for me.  Dean's I can hand wave as his way of coping after Purgatory.  But this train wreck is NOT how Sam would cope.  I'm surprised he didn't sell the Impala for money for Amsterdam or something equally not Sam.
It doesn't even make sense from one episode to the next.  Also, Amelia can die in a fire.

I can barely make it through these episodes.  I care about these characters, and the writers of this season (and the show runner) were obviously writing for some other people called Sam and Dean.  

[Demented Daisy]

Welcome to the Carver years.  I wish I could say it gets better....