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Woodstone Manor: The I-saac Sees All (Spoilers&Speculation)

Neptune

By Neptune
in Ghosts (US)

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Chit Chat

Chit Chat

On 11/15/2024 at 4:17 PM, PaulE said:

And yet many of their demands on Sam involve Jay in one way or another (if only because he has to put up with the consequences), and at least she has the satisfaction of being able to interact with them. 

As I've said before, things tend to happen at the expense of Jay because Sam can get away with it.  That's why I want the playing field leveled for Jay!!

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PaulE
PaulE

I think I speak for many of us when I say that, if this is true, I really really hope Pete's the ghost Jay gets to see, even if it's just for a few minutes.

Bastet
Bastet

Yep, you do not fuck with a key dynamic of a successful show (which is why you shoot around an actor's pregnancy, for example).  Jay's reactions to the one side of the conversations between Sam and th

Annber03
Annber03

You're welcome :). Agreed on the acting, too - the way Brandon Scott Jones delivers Isaac's, "But...she knew. She had to have known..." line in particular always gets me. He really captures both Isaac

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Neptune

Neptune

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What’s coming up for Sasappis on Ghosts? —Chloe
Roman Zaragoza confirmed in the NYCC press room, “I’m getting a love interest,” after which castmate Sheila Carrasco shared, “We’re going to find out something really, really important” about Sas, and that “Flower’s view of him completely changes with this information.” As for her own character, Carrasco said, “We’re going to see her remember something really important, and the chaos that unfolds from that, and I would also tease that she plays an integral part in the opening of [Jay’]s restaurant.”

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PaulE

PaulE

42 minutes ago, Badsamaritan said:

Looking at the previews tonight, it appears Jay gets electrocuted and falls into Sam and they body swap. I guess that's how Jay will see them, so it's not permanent. I don't like that. 

But if that's what does happen it'll be fun to watch each actor play the other.  We've seen Sam as Thor and Jay as Hetty but I think this kind of swap might be more challenging because neither of their characters is over the top like the ghosts'.

kathyk2

kathyk2

58 minutes ago, PaulE said:

But if that's what does happen it'll be fun to watch each actor play the other.  We've seen Sam as Thor and Jay as Hetty but I think this kind of swap might be more challenging because neither of their characters is over the top like the ghosts'.

I don't think Jay and Sam will play each other. Nancy was zapped into Sam. Sam said that it was weird to be wearing shoes.

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Bastet

Bastet

2 hours ago, Badsamaritan said:

I guess that's how Jay will see them, so it's not permanent. I don't like that. 

I missed the promo, but from your description I love it; I'd hate it if Jay seeing the ghosts was permanent.  I never had any real fear the writers would go that nonsensical route, but confirmation is still good.

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Badsamaritan

Badsamaritan

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

I missed the promo, but from your description I love it; I'd hate it if Jay seeing the ghosts was permanent.  I never had any real fear the writers would go that nonsensical route, but confirmation is still good.

And I'm the opposite. After 4 years and all that Jay has put up with from them and his wife, for me it is time. Jay being everyone's afterthought has become an old and tired joke. We've seen body swapping before, that's not new. What would be new is Jay seeing the ghosts for real, as himself. For me, that opens up a whole new world of storytelling possibilities. The body swapping is just mining the same well we've already been to. So for me, it's no more nonsensical than a show about a woman who can see ghosts. 🤷🏽‍♀️

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kathyk2

kathyk2

10 hours ago, Badsamaritan said:

And I'm the opposite. After 4 years and all that Jay has put up with from them and his wife, for me it is time. Jay being everyone's afterthought has become an old and tired joke. We've seen body swapping before, that's not new. What would be new is Jay seeing the ghosts for real, as himself. For me, that opens up a whole new world of storytelling possibilities. The body swapping is just mining the same well we've already been to. So for me, it's no more nonsensical than a show about a woman who can see ghosts. 🤷🏽‍♀️

Exactly Jay has met Sass through his dream power it's time for Jay to meet the others. It would be interesting to see how Jay copes with the ghosts versus how Sam does.

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Chit Chat

Chit Chat

11 hours ago, Badsamaritan said:

Jay being everyone's afterthought has become an old and tired joke. We've seen body swapping before, that's not new. What would be new is Jay seeing the ghosts for real, as himself. For me, that opens up a whole new world of storytelling possibilities.

I want this to happen too.  

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ofmd

ofmd

On 11/22/2024 at 3:05 AM, Neptune said:

What’s coming up for Sasappis on Ghosts? —Chloe
Roman Zaragoza confirmed in the NYCC press room, “I’m getting a love interest,” after which castmate Sheila Carrasco shared, “We’re going to find out something really, really important” about Sas, and that “Flower’s view of him completely changes with this information.” As for her own character, Carrasco said, “We’re going to see her remember something really important, and the chaos that unfolds from that, and I would also tease that she plays an integral part in the opening of [Jay’]s restaurant.”

Hmmm... Unless a new character arrives, will the new li be Flower?

Badsamaritan

Badsamaritan

Last night's episode set up the perfect opportunity to have Jay be able to see the ghosts, even if not all the time. They could make it be an effect of his soul being separated from his body for a prolonged period of time. I would accept that ghost logic to allow Jay more interaction with the rest of the cast because now that I've seen him do it, I don't want to go back. 🤷🏽‍♀️

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Skooma

Skooma

(edited)
36 minutes ago, Badsamaritan said:

Last night's episode set up the perfect opportunity to have Jay be able to see the ghosts, even if not all the time. They could make it be an effect of his soul being separated from his body for a prolonged period of time. I would accept that ghost logic to allow Jay more interaction with the rest of the cast because now that I've seen him do it, I don't want to go back. 🤷🏽‍♀️

Just no.  It would totally ruin the whole basis of the show and lead to it's quick cancellation.

Jay seeing the ghosts all the time would lead to just a typical "family comedy" of the parents (Sam and Jay) and the kids motif.  No, no, no.  A thousand times no.  You don't destroy an absolute perfect and wonderfully unique set-up for some tired old sitcom genre.

Edited by Skooma
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PaulE

PaulE

1 hour ago, Skooma said:
2 hours ago, Badsamaritan said:

Last night's episode set up the perfect opportunity to have Jay be able to see the ghosts, even if not all the time. They could make it be an effect of his soul being separated from his body for a prolonged period of time. I would accept that ghost logic to allow Jay more interaction with the rest of the cast because now that I've seen him do it, I don't want to go back. 🤷🏽‍♀️

Just no.  It would totally ruin the whole basis of the show and lead to it's quick cancellation.

Jay seeing the ghosts all the time would lead to just a typical "family comedy" of the parents (Sam and Jay) and the kids motif.  No, no, no.  A thousand times no.  You don't destroy an absolute perfect and wonderfully unique set-up for some tired old sitcom genre.

I have to agree, though I also loved the fact that finally Jay could see the ghosts because many of us have wanted this for so long.  But in the long run, I think giving him the ability permanently would lessen the nature of this show.  However, I wouldn't mind if, every now and then, Jay is able to interact with them briefly.  But it shouldn't happen too often or for too long.  But even doing it only once, it still deepens Jay's relationship with them because, although he always believed in their existence, he now knows them as individuals since he's seen and heard them.  Even though he goes back to not being able to do so, he still has the memories of that experience, and it's bound to change how he thinks of and relates to them.  It would be great if the writers could capture that somehow.  It would be tricky to do because, of course, he's back to the way things used to be, so they'd have to be very subtle in the way they portrayed that extra dimension to their relationship.  But I hope the writers try to depict that.

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Neptune

Neptune

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Speaking of landmark moments, McIver has just directed her first-ever episode of television, which is coming up this season on “Ghosts.” Her episode (the 13th of Season 4) airs sometime later this winter, and focuses on Pete’s backstory.

https://variety.com/2024/tv/news/ghosts-rose-mciver-christmas-episode-directing-debut-1236255669/

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Lugal

Lugal

A quick google search says people killed by moose are typically stomped or kicked to death.  And that the most dangerous moose are cows (which don't have antlers) protecting calves.  Sass doesn't look like he was stomped or kicked to death by a moose.

I always considered it more likely he was killed by a European disease.

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Chit Chat

Chit Chat

I'm just remembering that Sass once said that he died on the way to his first storytelling event.  (Please correct me if I'm not remembering that correctly!)  He could've been thrown from his horse and hit the back of his head.  Maybe his hair covers any head injury he might have.  I just hope they'll give us the answer to this during this season!  

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Annber03

Annber03

(edited)
8 hours ago, PaulE said:

But even doing it only once, it still deepens Jay's relationship with them because, although he always believed in their existence, he now knows them as individuals since he's seen and heard them.  Even though he goes back to not being able to do so, he still has the memories of that experience, and it's bound to change how he thinks of and relates to them.  It would be great if the writers could capture that somehow.  It would be tricky to do because, of course, he's back to the way things used to be, so they'd have to be very subtle in the way they portrayed that extra dimension to their relationship.  But I hope the writers try to depict that.

Yeah, I will be very interested to see how that affects and changes his dynamic with them going forward. I do like that that gives another layer to his connection with them, and it also helps him get a better idea of just what Sam has to deal with all day as well. 

But I agree with the general sentiment here - it was very cute and fun to see Jay and the ghosts actually getting to directly interact with each other for once, and I'm glad they all got that opportunity at long last. Still, yes, ,I think the comedy works better with the setup they've got. A large part of what I love about Jay's relationship with the ghosts is how he is willing to go all out for and cares so much about these people he can't even see or hear, it really speaks to how supportive and helpful and loving he is, and I want that aspect of his relationship with them to continue to be a thing. 

I also think the various piecemeal ways he learns about the ghosts, be it through whatever information he includes in his ghost notes or through being possessed by one of them or through a brief chance to get to see and/or hear them in some form or another, is a creative and unique way for his connection to them to grow. It fits well with his general interest in geeky/nerdy stuff, it's like a fun game of sorts for him, in a way. 

Edited by Annber03
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kathyk2

kathyk2

6 hours ago, Lugal said:

A quick google search says people killed by moose are typically stomped or kicked to death.  And that the most dangerous moose are cows (which don't have antlers) protecting calves.  Sass doesn't look like he was stomped or kicked to death by a moose.

I always considered it more likely he was killed by a European disease.

I think he ate something that was poisonous.

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Skooma

Skooma

(edited)
6 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

I'm just remembering that Sass once said that he died on the way to his first storytelling event.  (Please correct me if I'm not remembering that correctly!)  He could've been thrown from his horse and hit the back of his head.  Maybe his hair covers any head injury he might have.  I just hope they'll give us the answer to this during this season!  

There were no horses in North America at that time.  The Spanish conquistadors introduced the animal to the Americas and escaped horses would just be starting to form small herds of wild ones that plains tribes would soon capture and domesticate but not even there in the year 1513.  Northeastern tribes never used horses at all or only in small measure after the English and French arrived.  They were woodland tribes where horses don't function too well.

Edited by Skooma
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chaifan

chaifan

On 12/20/2024 at 5:14 PM, Lugal said:

I always considered it more likely he was killed by a European disease.

My current working theory...

Sass had an unknown heart condition.  Sass died in the midst of a massive orgasm while having sex (for the first time) but it was so traumatic he has no memory of it.  Thor knows (because he was watching), thought he filled Sass in on the missing details, but his Lenape is not so good so Sass thinks he died because he was trampled by a moose or some such thing.  At a certain point, Thor just didn't see the point in telling Sass the truth. 

It's just as plausible as anything else people have tossed out there.

 

Skooma

Skooma

On 12/20/2024 at 5:14 PM, Lugal said:

A quick google search says people killed by moose are typically stomped or kicked to death.  And that the most dangerous moose are cows (which don't have antlers) protecting calves.  Sass doesn't look like he was stomped or kicked to death by a moose.

I always considered it more likely he was killed by a European disease.

No Europeans were in the area of the Hudson River valley when Sass died in 1519.

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Lugal

Lugal

14 hours ago, Skooma said:

No Europeans were in the area of the Hudson River valley when Sass died in 1519.

True, but diseases can and often would spread to tribes before they ever met Europeans.  There were Breton, Basque and Portuguese fishermen off the coast of Newfoundland and Nova Scotia and possibly into the St. Lawrence Bay in the early 1500s but maybe even earlier, so it could work.

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ItCouldBeWorse

ItCouldBeWorse

(edited)
On 12/20/2024 at 5:14 PM, Lugal said:

I always considered it more likely he was killed by a European disease.

We've already had ghosts killed by dysentery and cholera, so I think it will be something other than a disease.

Maybe he choked on something?

As I write below, Carol's cause of death was choking, so I think it will be something else.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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ItCouldBeWorse

ItCouldBeWorse

(edited)

Quoting myself:

6 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

We've already had ghosts killed by dysentery and cholera, so I think it will be something other than a disease.

On 12/20/2024 at 3:48 PM, Chit Chat said:

I'm wondering if he ate something poisonous or if he got bitten by a snake.

And Alberta was poisoned by a drink.

A snake is possible, but the puncture marks would have to be hidden beneath his clothing.

On 12/20/2024 at 3:48 PM, Chit Chat said:

Could be that a moose charged him and hit him in the chest and killed him.

And Flower was killed by an animal.

Of the main ghosts, so far, one died of disease, one was mauled by an animal, one was poisoned, one was struck by lightning, one overdosed, one committed suicide, and one was fatally shot by an arrow.

Patience died from excessive bloodletting, Nigel was shot by a musket(?), the basement ghosts died from disease.

6 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Maybe he choked on something?

I just remembered that Carol already choked on a doughnut hole.

We know he didn't die as violently as Crash or Stephanie or the car ghost.

Snake bite is still a possibility, but we've already had death by poison and by animal.

I think that Sas's manner of death will be something we haven't seen yet, that doesn't leave visible marks.  Perhaps he had an aneurysm, and doesn't even remember it because he died so quickly. Possibly Thor can describe the symptoms immediately preceding Sas' death (clutching of the head or chest before collapse) and someone else will infer the cause.

It would make sense; none of the main ghosts have died from natural causes yet.  But for someone as young as Sas, dying in such a way wouldn't have been natural, which might be why he's still on the premises.  This would also result in a very poignant flashback; possibly as emotional as Hetty's.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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ofmd

ofmd

(edited)

In my headcanon, he fell from a horse. No idea why, I don't even know if the Lanape used horses. Well, if they didn't, it could explain why he failed!

Come to think of it, they are not very consistent as to what we see from their causes of death and state at time of death. Flower has the bear marks, Pete the arrow and Hetty the  hidden cord around her neck. The basement ghosts look ill and filthy. But Isaac doesn't, nor do we see Nigel's injury.

Edited by ofmd
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kathyk2

kathyk2

29 minutes ago, ofmd said:

In my headcanon, he fell from a horse. No idea why, I don't even know if the Lanape used horses. Well, if they didn't, it could explain why he failed!

Come to think of it, they are not very consistent as to what we see from their causes of death and state at time of death. Flower has the bear marks, Pete the arrow and Hetty the  hidden cord around her neck. The basement ghosts look ill and filthy. But Isaac doesn't, nor do we see Nigel's injury.

Isaac's wife Beatrice washed and dressed him in his uniform before he died.

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Annber03

Annber03

One of my theories for Sasappis has always been that he might've died of exposure to the elements, given his constant desire to sit in that warm shaft of light. Either that or something food-related, given his love of food.

I do agree, though, that it's possibly more likely his death was very sudden. And this...

9 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I think that Sas's manner of death will be something we haven't seen yet, that doesn't leave visible marks.  Perhaps he had an aneurysm, and doesn't even remember it because he died so quickly. Possibly Thor can describe the symptoms immediately preceding Sas' death (clutching of the head or chest before collapse) and someone else will infer the cause.

It would make sense; none of the main ghosts have died from natural causes yet.  But for someone as young as Sas, dying in such a way wouldn't have been natural, which might be why he's still on the premises.  This would also result in a very poignant flashback; possibly as emotional as Hetty's.

...would be a really powerful, heartbreaking way to go with his story. It would also certainly explain why he's never discussed his death, if he doesn't remember how it happened. 

Plus, I just really like the idea of Thor being there when Sasappis died and welcoming him into the ghost world. Sasappis has been present at so many o the other ghosts' deaths, it'd be very fitting and touching to have someone be there for his, and his oldest friend at that. 

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ItCouldBeWorse

ItCouldBeWorse

(edited)
3 hours ago, kathyk2 said:
4 hours ago, ofmd said:

Come to think of it, they are not very consistent as to what we see from their causes of death and state at time of death. Flower has the bear marks, Pete the arrow and Hetty the  hidden cord around her neck. The basement ghosts look ill and filthy. But Isaac doesn't, nor do we see Nigel's injury.

Isaac's wife Beatrice washed and dressed him in his uniform before he died.

Nigel has a bullet hole with some blood on his shirt.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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Bastet

Bastet

4 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Plus, I just really like the idea of Thor being there when Sasappis died and welcoming him into the ghost world. Sasappis has been present at so many o the other ghosts' deaths, it'd be very fitting and touching to have someone be there for his, and his oldest friend at that. 

But he wasn't; we learned in the Christmas episode that when Thor first approached Sass, Sass hadn't met any ghosts yet.  So Thor wasn't there to greet him and explain right away.

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Annber03

Annber03

55 minutes ago, Bastet said:

But he wasn't; we learned in the Christmas episode that when Thor first approached Sass, Sass hadn't met any ghosts yet.  So Thor wasn't there to greet him and explain right away.

True, but he could still be there to witness Sasappis' death and then, after giving Sasappis a little space to kinda sort out what's giong on, use that first meeting moment as hsi proper opportunity to help him settle into ghost life. 

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