Bookwalkers Only: Dragons Are Coming

[Cristofle]

1 minute ago, magdalene said:

They changed the book with having Daemon murder his first wife.  In the book he is nowhere near her when she has her  accident and dies. There are other ambiguous events coming up, making him responsible for all of them would put Daemon into one note villain territory for me. Daemon should never be one note anything.

Yeah, while Matty is doing his absolute best to play those scenes ambiguously, at the end of the day, if he's skulking around every single bad deed, that's too obvious and too trite. Daemon is not necessarily all bad, though he certainly isn't primarily good, lol. I hope they don't completely undercut that Daemon is quite fond of Laena - and so is Rhaenyra, for that matter, the three of them would fly together. Daemon also loves his daughters. 

[Meredith Quill]

2 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

That's why I said from his perspective because there is no other reason for Alicent to be going on like that unless she knew about them Criston is not aware of Daemon and those rumors as far as we know.

My point is, he didn't wait to be asked anything, therefore, no lies were required until/unless he was.

[Cristofle]

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

My point is, he didn't wait to be asked anything, therefore, no lies were required until/unless he was.

True. Alicent wasn't asking him anything about himself and his actions because it had never occurred to her - she was entirely focused on the Daemon thing (unsurprisingly - there's no way literally everyone has missed the way Rhaenyra has stared at Daemon for all of these years). If she'd been able to complete her questions of did he have any knowledge of Rhaenyra having sex with Daemon, he could have honestly said no and peaced out. 

I wish Criston had been able to react more to Daemon and Rhaenyra at the wedding. He couldn't HEAR them and it would make no difference if he could since there's no indication Criston speaks High Valyrian as far as I know, so he couldn't actually hear that Rhaenyra most certainly was willing to at least challenge Daemon to implode it all and whisk her away to Dragonstone and marry her. She probably guessed he wasn't going to up and do it, and she's still mad at him for the brothel, but alas, I think there is one man Rhaenyra WOULD throw it all away for - it's just not Criston. If we'd SEEN him soak any of that in, I can see that being a real blow to him - she all but laughed at him, but she was willing to watch Daemon slaughter the whole Guard for her. But we don't technically know what made Criston snap to the point that he went to actively seek Joffrey out (Joffrey had left him and returned to Laenor) and beat him to death. 

[Dac22]

22 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

 It's not flattering, but not that surprising that Rhaenyra didn't really consider or care that much about his vow of celibacy.

So thank you for acknowledging my point that Criston doesn't need to be loyal to her anymore.

As for the running away bit, he was trying to make an "honest" woman of her, which is considered the honorable/right thing to do in this setting like we saw with Robb. He just can't do that where they are so of course they'd have to run away.

He was thinking about both himself and her by trying to do the right thing in an already messed up situation.  

Quote

A lot, I'm guessing.

If that's true, then shouldn't Corlys, Rhaenys, Laenor, and Joffrey have been aware of it? It would be weird to think they didn't have their own contacts in King's Landing, and if the rumors are spreading like wildfire, then they should have known.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Dac22

[Cristofle]

17 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

So thank you for acknowledging my point that Criston doesn't need to be loyal to her anymore.

Quote

There's what I personally think - that Rhaenyra is bananas and makes a ton of bad choices and doesn't think of the consequences and nothing good can come for Criston from her deciding she was going to have him and to hell with the consequences to him - but there's also the fact of the times they are living in. This is not an equal relationship. It's just not. That's unfair, but it simply is. Rhaenyra can have sex with him and not really care that much because what she really wants is to marry her murderous uncle and still, Criston would be expected to protect her at all costs because he is her Kingsguard. That...relationship, such as it is, not based on Rhaenyra treating him with any kind of respect or care. I'm willing to guess a lot of royals have insulted and discarded and abused various guards. Rhaenyra has honestly never indicated she thinks much of what will happen to her guards if she ever gets in serious trouble or is seriously harmed due to her poor impulse control - that's been evident since the pilot. They would be blamed, and she does not take that into account, which is definitely not a brag on her. But still. They are still expected to uphold the most important aspect of their vows, which isn't celibacy. Does Criston need to be loyal beyond his vow to protect her from harm? No, and he shouldn't. He should stop dealing with her beyond what is absolutely necessary. But it's not true that he doesn't "need to be loyal to her" in any way as long as he remains a member of the Guard. She is the princess. She is the heir to the Iron Throne. His main duty remains to protect her until Viserys for some reason sends him off to do something else. 

17 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

If that's true, then shouldn't Corlys, Rhaenys, Laenor, and Joffrey have been aware of it? It would be weird to think they didn't have their own contacts in King's Landing, and if the rumors are spreading like wildfire, then they should have known.

Laenor and Joffrey, unsure, they seemed to be in their own world, but part of me wondered if part of the reason Corlys was being so bold is because he DID know Rhaenyra is currently in a precarious situation and needs a quick marriage pact and that gives him another upper hand. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Cristofle

[Dac22]

6 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I'm willing to guess a lot of royals have insulted and discarded and abused various guards. 

My main point is that even if characters aren't royals, they are still people who are allowed to have feelings.

Like if a royal screws them over, murders their child in cold blood, or does some other awful thing, those character are valid in being pissed off by it. I thought you were imply Criston himself can't feel betrayed simply because Rhaenyra doesn't care what happened.

If that wasn't the case, then my mistake.

Quote

His main duty remains to protect her until Viserys for some reason sends him off to do something else. 

I never disagreed with this, I don't think? 

Criston should absolutely protect her from harm. My argument is that she was in no harm when he revealed what happened to The Queen given Rhaenyra's status as the princess and heir, nor should he have to lie to the other members of the royal family for her.

If they were going to punish Criston, then Viserys most likely would have left Rhaenyra's involvement out of it and say Criston did it with some other poor woman to keep Rhaenyra's reputation intact. 

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

My point is, he didn't wait to be asked anything, therefore, no lies were required until/unless he was.

I thought Alicent was a liar because she never told Rhaenyra about her meetings with the Viserys even though Rhaenyra never asked Alicent anything.

[Cristofle]

9 hours ago, Dac22 said:

I thought you were imply Criston himself can't feel betrayed simply because Rhaenyra doesn't care what happened.

No, he definitely can be furious. Should he have violently murdered Joffrey? Definitely not, lol, but if he had just done whatever he could to have as little to do with her as possible, that probably wuld have been a smart move. I actually thought last week that the encounter itself, without anything else needing to happen, would be what caused Criston to drift closer to Alicent, and that made sense to me. Criston thinking the encounter meant she'd run away with him made less sense to me, and him violently killing Joffrey was bizarre. Especially when I rewatched and realized Criston hadn't just snapped while Joffrey was still whispering in his ear, but rather chose to seek him out when Joffrey had already left and returned to Laenor. Criston can not want anything to do with what Joffrey is suggesting - indeed, he SHOULDN'T want anything to do with that, lol - but responding with murder was completely unacceptable and indicated to me he's unstable beyond what happened with Rhaenyra. 

9 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I thought Alicent was a liar because she never told Rhaenyra about her meetings with the Viserys even though Rhaenyra never asked Alicent anything.

She was. Her outrage at being lied to by Rhaenyra is annoying. They should have focused more on Alicent becoming increasingly aware that Aegon's position is in jeopardy following Otto's warning. She should have been distressed that a marriage to Laenor would strengthen Rhaenyra's claim. Instead, she fixated on Rhaenyra's sex life and was seemingly enraged that Rhaenya lied to her, when Alicent at BEST deliberately misled Rhaenyra about her relationship with her father. I didn't really blame her for that at the time, but I also don't blame Rhaenyra for having no interest in confiding to Alicent about the whole Daemon/Criston mess. Alicent seems to expect more open loyalty and trust than she's willing to give. I get that she's mad that Otto got fired, but tbh, that didn't have anything to do with Rhaenyra lying to her. If Alicent thinks anything she did or said swayed Viseyrs, she's massively overestimating her own influence over him. Otto got himself fired the moment he had Rhaenyra followed and then fed Viserys extremely damaging information about her. Viserys immediately figured out what Otto had done and why he had done it. Rhaenyra isn't stupid - she didn't need Alicent saying anything to her in order to discern who was most likely to have her followed. It was ultimately Rhaenyra's demand combined with Viserys realizing how thoroughly Otto had been manipulating him the last few years (especially with pushing him towards Alicent) that pushed Viserys to fire Otto. Viserys never believed Rhaenyra that she didn't have sex that night, hence he sent her the tea, so Alicent's belief is thoroughly irrelevant to the actual chain of events. 

[Meredith Quill]

10 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I thought Alicent was a liar because she never told Rhaenyra about her meetings with the Viserys even though Rhaenyra never asked Alicent anything.

I never said she was a liar; deceitful & duplicitous, yes. But the comment you quoted was in context of actively 'lying to the queen'. Actively lying and lying by omission are both deceitful behaviours, one being an action and one inaction. If we take it to that level then everyone who doesn't immediately confess everything they say or do to the King or Queen must be considered a liar. As must the queen for not telling the king about Otto's machinations...

The difference between the two is, Alicent's deceit had a direct effect on Rhaenyra's life, Rhaenyra's deceit did not have a direct affect on Alicent's. So Alicent's was, in fact, the worse of the two wrt their friendship.

[Constantinople]

57 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I never said she was a liar; deceitful & duplicitous, yes. But the comment you quoted was in context of actively 'lying to the queen'. Actively lying and lying by omission are both deceitful behaviours, one being an action and one inaction. If we take it to that level then everyone who doesn't immediately confess everything they say or do to the King or Queen must be considered a liar. As must the queen for not telling the king about Otto's machinations...

The difference between the two is, Alicent's deceit had a direct effect on Rhaenyra's life, Rhaenyra's deceit did not have a direct affect on Alicent's. So Alicent's was, in fact, the worse of the two wrt their friendship.

I'm still seeing a double standard.

Criston shouldn't shouldn't disclose anything unless directly asked, but Alicent should disclose information without being directly asked. And the king specifically told Alicent not to say anything. 

And I don't see how Alicent's "deceit" had a direct effect on Rhaenyra's life since everyone had accepted that Viserys would remarry. Meanwhile Rhaenyra lied to Alicent's face when asked and Rhaenyra swore on the memory of her dead mother. And for those who care about such things, Rhaenyra swore in front of a weirwood tree.

Nor is the issue if one had a "direct effect" whatever that means. The issue is what motivated Rhaenyra. Once you start asking that question, you start to wonder what else she'll lie about.

[Meredith Quill]

35 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm still seeing a double standard.

Criston shouldn't shouldn't disclose anything unless directly asked, but Alicent should disclose information without being directly asked. And the king specifically told Alicent not to say anything. 

And I don't see how Alicent's "deceit" had a direct effect on Rhaenyra's life since everyone had accepted that Viserys would remarry. Meanwhile Rhaenyra lied to Alicent's face when asked and Rhaenyra swore on the memory of her dead mother. And for those who care about such things, Rhaenyra swore in front of a weirwood tree.

Nor is the issue if one had a "direct effect" whatever that means. The issue is what motivated Rhaenyra. Once you start asking that question, you start to wonder what else she'll lie about.

You're seeing double? I'd advise getting some new glasses lol.

Alicent should disclose information that will affect her and Rhaenyra's friendship, that's friends 101. Criston and Alicent have no such friendship - which is why Alicent's actions are worse.

[Cristofle]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

Alicent should disclose information that will affect her and Rhaenyra's friendship, that's friends 101.

At the time of the episodes, I could see why Alicent kept her mouth shut, especially after Viserys asked her to (to be fair, that seemed to be months into their little meetings). She was in a difficult position, used by her father as a political pawn. I understood why Rhaenyra was mad, but I also understood Alicent was stuck. BUT, if that one thinks Alicent was understandable there (and I did), then I'm also not going to say Rhaenyra needed to confide in her about her sex life whether she was directly asked or not. Rhaenyra and Alicent don't really have that kind of relationship anymore and Rhaenyra was protecting herself in a dangerous situation. If Alicent was justified in concealing a relationship from Rhaenyra, then Rhaenyra has that same right.

Although Viserys was really the only logical one in that mess - he didn't need to ask Rhaenyra a thing, he apparently has the eyes to notice the way they've stared at each other for years and so even if he didn't want to believe it was going any further at the time and he just chose to stick his head in the sand, once confronted with seeming evidence that Rhaenyra HAD slept with Daemon, he didn't end up questioning it. And the book clearly shows that gossip about Daemon and Rhaenyra was a thing for a long time. They're not super subtle with each other. Viserys' "Seven hells, this DOES track" response was definitely a response of someone who clearly knows Rhaenyra better than Alicent does, if Alicent was going to clutch her pearls and be scandalized.

As for Criston, I guess that was the beginning part of his suicidal slide, is the only real explanation for why he didn't keep his dang mouth shut and honestly answer he didn't see anything between Daemon and Rhaenyra and peace out. He was only in a dangerous situation in his own mind. Alicent had NO thought that he might have been involved with Rhaenyra.

[Raachel2008]

On 9/20/2022 at 7:32 AM, Cristofle said:

She was. Her outrage at being lied to by Rhaenyra is annoying. They should have focused more on Alicent becoming increasingly aware that Aegon's position is in jeopardy following Otto's warning. (...). Viserys never believed Rhaenyra that she didn't have sex that night, hence he sent her the tea, so Alicent's belief is thoroughly irrelevant to the actual chain of events. 

One thing HoD failed to show is that in the books Alicent being a virgin was questioned and people thought she had slept with Daemon or even had been Viserys mistress before Aemma died. I think that would have 'balanced' the things more, pottle calling kettle and all that. But I guess they decided to queerbait the hell out of Rhaenyra and Alicent, and that wouldn't work following the books.

[magdalene]

Anybody see the trailer and Vhagar and Caraxes flying next to each other? If only someone from the Blacks had been able to claim Vhagar before Shitface got her.

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Anybody see the trailer and Vhagar and Caraxes flying next to each other? If only someone from the Blacks had been able to claim Vhagar before Shitface got her.

Now I imagine them like Pokemons...

[Cristofle]

On 9/21/2022 at 4:38 PM, Raachel2008 said:

One thing HoD failed to show is that in the books Alicent being a virgin was questioned and people thought she had slept with Daemon or even had been Viserys mistress before Aemma died. I think that would have 'balanced' the things more, pottle calling kettle and all that. But I guess they decided to queerbait the hell out of Rhaenyra and Alicent, and that wouldn't work following the books.

Writing them as close friends has made this part really messy. I definitely feel like they're being queerbaited - Alicent is 100% acting like a scorned lover. But since they don't appear to be saying it outright, it just seems to have holes in the plot. 

Vhagar is HUGE. Wow. I hope House of the Dragon goes into more detail about the connection between the dragon and the rider, which GoT failed at spectacularly in the end (like Jon could just hop on Rhaegal on a whim, instead of them being connected). 

[RobertDeSneero]

A thought occurred to me.  Are any of the incels complaining about black Velaryons also going to complain that we are not getting the "plump" Rhaenyra from the book?  A fat queen would be in keeping with the vision of the book, if we care about the purity of the text.  Is there any way to do it in the show?

[magdalene]

With the faking of Leonors death I started to wonder about Daemon's end again. They find Aemond and the two dragons but not him.  If you watched enough drama you learn that no body  often means no death.  But would he leave his kids behind. Will the show give us a definite answer or leave it ambigious like in the book?

[ursula]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

With the faking of Leonors death I started to wonder about Daemon's end again. They find Aemond and the two dragons but not him.  If you watched enough drama you learn that no body  often means no death.  But would he leave his kids behind. Will the show give us a definite answer or leave it ambigious like in the book?

He's emotionally distant from his kids when they lost their mom so it actually makes sense imo that he'll nope out of the story and spend the rest of his life with Nettles who's one of the few dragon-riders that makes it out alive with her dragon. 

But will the writing go there since they seem hellbent on propping Daemyra as the GOT's Bella/Edward?

[Cristofle]

10 minutes ago, ursula said:

But will the writing go there since they seem hellbent on propping Daemyra as the GOT's Bella/Edward?

I don't think they're THAT bad, lol (as Bella and Edward, I mean) but that otherwise is a big question for me. I feel like this show has gone a lot further in highlighting this relationship, and it's seriously underplayed other relationships (namely Daemon/Laena and Rhaenyra/Harwin) in that process. It's fairly obvious on the show that Daemon was not in love with Laena. "We were happy enough" is a very anemic statement, lol. And Rhaenyra seems even less attached to Harwin - she's openly saying she's been miserable this whole time and her life is a "droll tragedy". Also, her "Duuuude, shut upppp" murmuring to Jace re: Harwin's death didn't have a lot of emotion behind it. And even going before that - the show rewrote Daemon and Myseria to highlight that he'd never gotten her pregnant and even had problems getting it up for her. 

So all of that is to say, what is going to happen with Nettles in this version? They're not even whitewashing Daemon as a character persay - they showed him brutally murdering his wife and aren't showing him as any kind of real father. But they are...playing up Daemon and Rhaenyra, and playing down other relationships. None of this is to say I think Rhaenyra and Daemon will somehow end well, lol - I am certain they won't. But I still have questions about how Nettles will go.

[Meredith Quill]

Changing the fate of an, at best, secondary character is a completely different proposition from changing the fate of one of the main three characters a la Rhaenyra. As for Daemon, he may be shown to survive and vanish with Nettles, but that could only happen if Nettles were nearby during his fight with Aemond. Because even if he survived that battle, he would in no way come out unscathed, in fact, the reasonable assumption would be that he'd have at least sustained fairly serious injury, therefore, wouldn't be capable of leaving the area without assistance of some kind.

[Constantinople]

Daemon isn't the only character whose body is never found. I doubt they're all headlining as Targaryen MIA on the Essos music circuit.

And Daemon doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who can live quietly and not call attention to himself.

[magdalene]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Changing the fate of an, at best, secondary character is a completely different proposition from changing the fate of one of the main three characters a la Rhaenyra. As for Daemon, he may be shown to survive and vanish with Nettles, but that could only happen if Nettles were nearby during his fight with Aemond. Because even if he survived that battle, he would in no way come out unscathed, in fact, the reasonable assumption would be that he'd have at least sustained fairly serious injury, therefore, wouldn't be capable of leaving the area without assistance of some kind.

Yeah, Harwin and Leana were footnotes in the book. The show actually has fleshed both out.  I wonder whether the writers  had any inkling beforehand that they were actually creating a couple that would be shipped to this degree?  My mother is shipping Daemon/Rhaenyra, and so is my teenage niece.   They are going to be so upset if this all goes down like book canon. They don't romantically die together and their marriage falls apart for very unromantic reasons.  Anyways, at the time Daemon goes to meet Aemond he is fed up with it all and very much aware that Daemon Targaryan (who is a very divisive man) must die for peace to have a chance. 

It did strike me that when Rhaenyra said in the last episode, "water is an escape", water was also an escape for Daemon Targaryan,  one way or the other.

If he survives I wish he will comfort his dying dragon. Caraxes death actually upsets me the most.

Here's a final twist scenario:  It's after the Dance and there's a mummer's play about Aegon the Younger and his unexpected reunion with his younger brother Viserys. Among the watchers is a man in a "up to no good" cowl. It's Daemon and after the play is over he disappears into the crowd.

[Meredith Quill]

3 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Yeah, Harwin and Leana were footnotes in the book. The show actually has fleshed both out.  I wonder whether the writers  had any inkling beforehand that they were actually creating a couple that would be shipped to this degree?  My mother is shipping Daemon/Rhaenyra, and so is my teenage niece.   They are going to be so upset if this all goes down like book canon. They don't romantically die together and their marriage falls apart for very unromantic reasons.  Anyways, at the time Daemon goes to meet Aemond he is fed up with it all and very much aware that Daemon Targaryan (who is a very divisive man) must die for peace to have a chance. 

It did strike me that when Rhaenyra said in the last episode, "water is an escape", water was also an escape for Daemon Targaryan,  one way or the other.

If he survives I wish he will comfort his dying dragon. Caraxes death actually upsets me the most.

Yup. To quote a couple of apt lines from GOT for non-readers (who likely won't ever see this):

The whole thing makes me sad tbh but it's a compelling tale - "If you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention"

The fact that Rhaenyra & Daemon's line endures - "It's the only joy I can find in all this misery"

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

My mother is shipping Daemon/Rhaenyra, and so is my teenage niece.   They are going to be so upset if this all goes down like book canon. They don't romantically die together and their marriage falls apart for very unromantic reasons. 

Yeah, I see people shipping these two so hardcore and it's like "...This will not end well." LOL. Just look to GoT - this is not an OTP kinda universe. I appreciate how tangled and complicated Daemon and Rhaenyra are. I think it's interesting. I imagined Jon and Dany would be very complicated when they inevitably collided and the show screwed it up sixty ways from Sunday. But I was never expecting a happy ending for them. 

I get very upset when dragons die, lol. Much more than a lot of human characters. I also can't take Grey Wolf or Lady's deaths AT ALL. Still, if it goes anything like the book, the final battle between Aemond and Daemon will be a hell of a thing to watch. 

[magdalene]

21 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Yeah, I see people shipping these two so hardcore and it's like "...This will not end well." LOL. Just look to GoT - this is not an OTP kinda universe. I appreciate how tangled and complicated Daemon and Rhaenyra are. I think it's interesting. I imagined Jon and Dany would be very complicated when they inevitably collided and the show screwed it up sixty ways from Sunday. But I was never expecting a happy ending for them. 

I get very upset when dragons die, lol. Much more than a lot of human characters. I also can't take Grey Wolf or Lady's deaths AT ALL. Still, if it goes anything like the book, the final battle between Aemond and Daemon will be a hell of a thing to watch. 

Oh, I can't face the God's Eye. It will be devastating to watch because these two dragons are my particular favorites. To pit them against each other to their deaths is awful.  At least Daemon goes on his own terms and gets to give Aemond a last surprise with Dark Sister.  And at the speed this show is going this may be happening next season.

[cambridgeguy]

10 hours ago, magdalene said:

And at the speed this show is going this may be happening next season.

Only if it's a three season run.  Losing Matt Smith will be a big blow to the show, so no reason to rush to that fight unless he decided he only wanted to spend a couple of years wearing a wig.

I also wonder how they're going to introduce Alyn and Addam.  Corlys and Rhaenys seem to be happily married (well, until the latest episode, anyway) so would he have gone around sleeping with other women?  I find it very hard to believe that Laenor would have failed to conceive with Rhaenyra but somehow impregnated someone else.

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Only if it's a three season run.  Losing Matt Smith will be a big blow to the show, so no reason to rush to that fight unless he decided he only wanted to spend a couple of years wearing a wig.

I also wonder how they're going to introduce Alyn and Addam.  Corlys and Rhaenys seem to be happily married (well, until the latest episode, anyway) so would he have gone around sleeping with other women?  I find it very hard to believe that Laenor would have failed to conceive with Rhaenyra but somehow impregnated someone else.

Well, I'll be out after Matt Smith goes. I don't want to see Rhaenyra's end.  Shudders. Really, this all gets so depressing I don't need to see it all play out.  The important  part is that Daemon's first son with Rhaenyra ends up on the throne, leading eventually to Jon Snow, etc. etc.

And frankly I only gave this show a chance because Matt Smith was cast in it.  I loathed the last season of GOT and had initially no intention to ever watch anything GOT related again.

[Cristofle]

I don't know if I'll STOP watching, but I likely will never watch Rhaenyra's death sequence in full because it's just too awful. In general, I'm squeamish about using the dragons as a death sentence - beheading is honestly easier to watch. So given that I was uncomfortable watching Sam's father and brother die - and I hated Sam's father - Rhaenyra's even more horrifying death in front of her child is not going to be something I'm going to want to subject myself to. Matt was a big incentive for me because I was seriously on the fence after the final two seasons of GOT, but I wasn't immediately against it just because I mostly blame D&D for that disaster. I have grown invested in some of the other characters, but of course for a lot of us dedicated Matt Smith fans, he remains a big selling point and I do think the show will lose a lot when they lose him. 

[LanceM]

Given that Matt Smith is a big draw for this show I am thinking they will probably want to keep him around to the final season. If that means changing the timeline of his death do be it.

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

Given that Matt Smith is a big draw for this show I am thinking they will probably want to keep him around to the final season. If that means changing the timeline of his death do be it.

I hope you are right.

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, LanceM said:

Given that Matt Smith is a big draw for this show I am thinking they will probably want to keep him around to the final season. If that means changing the timeline of his death do be it.

I definitely hope so. Even beyond his obviously large and devoted fanbase, I personally think Matt has such a presence as THIS character, it just wouldn't be the same without him. I'm sure not everyone agrees, lol. But my mom, who has never watched Doctor Who and was only vaguely aware of Matt from The Crown (and she hates Prince Phillip, lol, and did long before the show), has been watching HOTD and she is very vocal about Daemon being "the best one" in terms of the most entertaining character. 

[ursula]

They'll probably shift the timing of his death towards the end of the Dance, and not in the penultimate chapter/season. In the story, no one actually knows he's dead until much later (I don't think Rhaenyra knew he was dead when she died) so it won't make much difference plot-wise. 

Talking about endings, any theories on when this show ends. I think we might get the Hour of the Wolf as a literal hour i.e. one episode where we see Cregan Stark execute Larys and send everyone else to the Wall. But it's possible that they might scrap that and just end with Aegon II's death? (I'm guessing that they won't end with Rhaenyra's death because that's too depressing even for me).

Edited October 5, 2022 by ursula

[Cristofle]

I don't know if they'll get to this, because even an epilogue might be...a lot, lol, but one of the really significant results of this war is the end of the dragons. The last dragon dies during Aegon III's reign, Daemon and Rhaenyra's older son. He will end up despising dragons because of how Rhaenyra died. I wonder if they'll somehow address that? Or if it's just too much to cover. 

[Affogato]

6 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I don't know if they'll get to this, because even an epilogue might be...a lot, lol, but one of the really significant results of this war is the end of the dragons. The last dragon dies during Aegon III's reign, Daemon and Rhaenyra's older son. He will end up despising dragons because of how Rhaenyra died. I wonder if they'll somehow address that? Or if it's just too much to cover. 

I really am guessing that is how the dragons go from flesh to thread. 

[ybrik]

I think people possibly leaving due to Matt Smith is one of the reasons I think they really need to nail the casting of Cregan Stark also some of the other side characters that are going to be coming in soon.

Also if I was the writers I would have the last scene of this season I would have Jace flying his dragon and as the Stark’s theme starts we see the outskirts of Winterfell. 

I know both of these seem too Stark focused but both of these would address some issues fans seem to have been mentioning about the show. Specifically having no one to root for. I have found some of the most rootable characters in F and b are the side characters. 

[ursula]

22 minutes ago, ybrik said:

I think people possibly leaving due to Matt Smith is one of the reasons I think they really need to nail the casting of Cregan Stark also some of the other side characters that are going to be coming in soon.

Also if I was the writers I would have the last scene of this season I would have Jace flying his dragon and as the Stark’s theme starts we see the outskirts of Winterfell. 

I know both of these seem too Stark focused but both of these would address some issues fans seem to have been mentioning about the show. Specifically having no one to root for. I have found some of the most rootable characters in F and b are the side characters. 

The problem is that Cregan is literally not in the war until the last hour. If they introduce him early, they’ll have to invent a storyline to keep him relevant. And going off the GOT experience, when these writers run out of book material, the quality of the show drops. 

[Meredith Quill]

My memory is sketchy - does he lead the Wolves or some northern force? No? If not, perhaps they'll have him do it.

I wouldn't judge these the same as dumb and dumber, Ryan Condal is a massive asoiaf fan and GRRM and he consult often from what I've read/seen, and he appears to want to keep GRRM on side.

[magdalene]

They should end with AegonIII and young Viserys unexpectedly reuniting - that was such a touching happy moment for them. The happiest moment of poor Aegon's life.

It occurred to me I may loathe AegonII a bit more than Aemond, no small feat.

Speaking of AegonII,  my initial reaction to the recast version is - they should have kept Ty Tennant.

[magdalene]

I saw in the trailer for episode 8 how beautiful and sweet  recast older Lucerys looks. Those writers know what they are doing.

I wonder whether some of that blathering on how Aemond is a misunderstood victim will stop once they see Aemond brutally murdering this teenage boy. His kin.

I have read that the last scene of the season is Rhaenyra  learning of his death.  How  will hubby Daemon react to his wife's distress? After all this is a guy who once almost beat to death a messenger simply for delivering a message he didn't like. And just last episode murdered some poor schmuck so they could fake his brother in laws death. He was in a good mood that episode, getting what he wants.

Team Alicent may not care for the results when Daemon is in a really bad mood.

[magdalene]

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxgAggWjIPDOflBVE0CK3Y83Mru5qxtb32

AegonIII the Younger, son of Rhaenyra and Daemon Targaryan.  What a cutie.

[cambridgeguy]

On 10/5/2022 at 11:06 PM, magdalene said:

Team Alicent may not care for the results when Daemon is in a really bad mood.

This isn't some mystery, we already know how he'll respond.  With Blood and Cheese.

The only real question is how he actually feels about his new stepsons/grand nephews.  If he's as obsessed with getting his bloodline on the throne as Otto and Corlys then those boys are an obstacle, but it's hard to tell if that's a goal.

[Meredith Quill]

12 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

This isn't some mystery, we already know how he'll respond.  With Blood and Cheese.

The only real question is how he actually feels about his new stepsons/grand nephews.  If he's as obsessed with getting his bloodline on the throne as Otto and Corlys then those boys are an obstacle, but it's hard to tell if that's a goal.

As you said yourself, as book readers in here we know the main beats that happen and what Daemon does and doesn't do, as well as how it all turns out in the end so to speculate any differently seems weird.

[ursula]

10 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

The only real question is how he actually feels about his new stepsons/grand nephews.  If he's as obsessed with getting his bloodline on the throne as Otto and Corlys then those boys are an obstacle, but it's hard to tell if that's a goal.

Blood and Cheese proved to me that Daemon loved Luke and his brothers and didn’t particularly care if it was his son on the Throne after Rhaenyra or not. ymmv.

[LanceM]

Anyone see the stills for next episode with a pregnant Rhaenyra? Yeah I think they are going there. 😳

[Meredith Quill]

10 hours ago, LanceM said:

Anyone see the stills for next episode with a pregnant Rhaenyra? Yeah I think they are going there. 😳

I'll bet that it isn't with their first either as it's an approx 6yr time jump, so probably their second or even third...?

[magdalene]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I'll bet that it isn't with their first either as it's an approx 6yr time jump, so probably their second or even third...?

Yes, Aegon the Younger - there is a link to a picture of him up thread - and her second son with Daemon ViserysII. She is now pregnant with their third child.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCOv5Cmwubx3ED-IjjrbvUA/community?lb=Ugkx-ihAXpRGeolbpsElqWu00nPQswAgxg3I

A still from the next episode.

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Edited October 8, 2022 by magdalene

[ursula]

If it's 6 years, it makes more sense to be poor little baby Visenya. 

(Literally just occurred to me that Rhaenyra gave 2 successive children the same name - Viserys and Visenya. 🤣🤣🤣)

Edited October 8, 2022 by ursula

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Yes, Aegon the Younger - there is a link to a picture of him up thread - and her second son with Daemon ViserysII. She is now pregnant with their third child.

33 minutes ago, ursula said:

If it's 6 years, it makes more sense to be poor little baby Visenya. 

Which confirms to me that the first real act of war, aka atrocity, committed by the Green's will most likely happen this season. 😬😳😭

[magdalene]

4 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Which confirms to me that the first real act of war, aka atrocity, committed by the Green's will most likely happen this season. 😬😳

Do you mean Aemond murdering Luke and cutting his eyes out? The spoilers I read said that happens in episode 10.

This show is going so fast that I still believe that Daemon, Aemond, Rhaenyra will die at the beginning of season 3, with the remaining Blacks fighting to get Aegon the Younger on the throne.

With the way this show is paced I just don't see this as a four season  series. Especially, since they have the Jon Snow show coming and then the rumored Aegon the Conqueror thing. And the rumored Blackfyre rebellion thing. And Dunk and Egg?