Old vs. New: Comparing Leapers

[Rebecca berkowit]

Quote

I don’t know that people learned from the original, as much as it was trying to show what people HAD learned since the time of the leap, and how far society had come.  He was in the early 90’s showing people from the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s gains which had not yet been made (women’s lib, civil rights, gay rights), but needed to be, and would be with their help.  As for the current series, I do appreciate learning that PTSD first became recognized in the 1970’s, and in that episode, it seems like they were showing someone in that time the gains that needed to be made in that area, and would be with their help.  But the very fact that they had to reach back to the 70’s for that issue (violating the original terms of the leap project which said it had to be in his own lifetime), gives me pause.  Show me an episode where they tell someone in the 2000’s some kind of social gain which needed to happen, and would, with their help.  I think they can show technological gains, and that would be interesting.  But social gains I’m having trouble imagining.  I’m not knocking the current time, certainly we still have gains to be made, in some of these same areas.  But the original Sam’s lifetime was unique in that we saw enormous social changes in the way people looked and acted, such that the future and past would be mutually unrecognizable.  I think that’s why that stipulation was conceived by the writers as part of the original project.  Today’s society would look much more familiar to a person from 30 years ago, except for the enormous technological advances.  The people would mostly look, dress, and act similarly, and the issues they struggled with would be similar.  I think that’s why they have to reach further back this time, it’s just more interesting.   YMMV.

3 minutes ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

3 minutes ago, Rebecca berkowit said:

deleted 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Rebecca berkowit

[DoctorAtomic]

It seems that this new code Ben uploaded was a workaround to the constraint of leaping within one's own lifetime. The QL staff was even surprised. 

[Rebecca berkowit]

15 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It seems that this new code Ben uploaded was a workaround to the constraint of leaping within one's own lifetime. The QL staff was even surprised. 

But the writers weren’t.  😀

[KaveDweller]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It seems that this new code Ben uploaded was a workaround to the constraint of leaping within one's own lifetime. The QL staff was even surprised. 

It goes against the entire theory Sam had in the original, but clearly they want more creative freedom. 

If you didn't watch, the theory was that if your life was a piece of string, you could tie the end to the beginning, then scrunch it in a circle so you could jump from one point to another to move through it non-linearly. I don't understand how they were supposed to have done any of that, but it doesn't seem like some code should change it. But at least they established this new rule early.

And even the original violated their rule in one episode where Sam leapt back to the Civil War. 

[ramurphy2005]

1 hour ago, KaveDweller said:

And even the original violated their rule in one episode where Sam leapt back to the Civil War. 

And even then, the person Sam leapt into was one of his anscestors. 

[Sarah 103]

Something I was thinking about recently was that Sam and Al had completely different personalities, points of view, and life experiences. That made for great television because you'd have two different opinions and could understand why each thought or believed what they did, and it wasn't always about who was right and who was wrong. This time around, I'm not really getting that kind of vibe. It could be they only have time to deal with leap mission and they don't have time for the character's backstories. Even so, I still wish Ben and Addison's personalties were a bit better developed. 

[Sarah 103]

Is anyone else watching the new series and thinking about how the episode/plotline would have played out in the original series, or is that just me and my overactive imagination? 

It's amazing how different television was in the 1980s. The show didn't need to be high stakes action/adventure.  It was allowed to tell smaller stories and could be lighter, but still dealing with real and serious issues. You could do mission/case of the week and didn't need a season-long overarching storyline. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Sarah 103

[DoctorAtomic]

You also had more running time to do that, which helps. I'd say the boxing story was 'small' though because it just focused on getting the brother help for ptsd, and then he went on to help others. 

[QuantumMechanic]

On 10/25/2022 at 12:21 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

You also had more running time to do that, which helps. I'd say the boxing story was 'small' though because it just focused on getting the brother help for ptsd, and then he went on to help others. 

Yeah - how much time have episodes lost since the late 80s/early 90s? Eps are down to what, 40 minutes now? Was it 45 back then?

[DoctorAtomic]

I watch on Peacock, and these episodes are 42 minutes. In a quick imdb search, it looks like the first season of the OG was about 48 minutes. Six minutes is a lot in a television show. Also, the fourth episode, Sam leaped into a boxer. 

[Sarah 103]

16 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Yeah - how much time have episodes lost since the late 80s/early 90s? Eps are down to what, 40 minutes now? Was it 45 back then?

I would have said 50 minutes for an hour long show in the 1980s. Episodes are currently 40 or 42 minutes. Half hour shows went from 25 minutes to 22 to 18 minutes.  

[Sarah 103]

I need some help with an episode. In the original series, there is a scene where Al and Sam have a passionate argument about whether or not the devil/hell exists. I cannot remember which episode it is from, but hopefully someone here can help. 

[QuantumMechanic]

6 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I need some help with an episode. In the original series, there is a scene where Al and Sam have a passionate argument about whether or not the devil/hell exists. I cannot remember which episode it is from, but hopefully someone here can help. 

"The Boogieman" (season 3)?

[Trini]

[There is a topic for the original series, BTW: https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/4956-quantum-leap/]

[Trini]

Another difference between this new version and the old, in the old the (completely fictional) technology wasn't really that prominent or important; here, it seems to be the main thing driving the 'HQ' stories.

I don't know how many times they can keep doing 'Oh no, something is wrong with the tech!' for B-plots; it's already getting a little tiresome.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Trini

[Prevailing Wind]

On 10/30/2022 at 3:12 PM, Sarah 103 said:

I would have said 50 minutes for an hour long show in the 1980s. Episodes are currently 40 or 42 minutes. Half hour shows went from 25 minutes to 22 to 18 minutes.  

Back in the 90s  I frequently worked late so I taped Jeopardy! - if I FF'd through the commercials and contestant interviews, I could finish a whole show in 17 minutes.

[chlban]

I admire those of you still hanging in there. I will stick with the original series. I was looking forward to this, but have now erased it from my DVR recording schedule. 

[Nerfect Drifty]

On 11/14/2022 at 8:54 PM, chlban said:

I admire those of you still hanging in there. I will stick with the original series. I was looking forward to this, but have now erased it from my DVR recording schedule. 

I wish I could do the same.  Unfortunately I have compulsions and am actually pretty curious to see if the story arc goes anywhere before the series is abruptly cancelled and it ends on an unresolved cliffhanger.

[iMonrey]

On 11/7/2023 at 5:09 PM, kirkola said:

The original was intentionally vague and often contradictory.

Can you specify how the original was vague or contradictory in its premise? I do not recall any such instances. They were quite clear that Sam was switching places with someone, he went back, that person came forward and sat in the waiting room. If you are aware of any episodes that contradict that premise I would like to be reminded of them. 

I'll grant you that the finale sucked and didn't make a lot of sense, but up to that point, the show maintained a very simple and consistent premise. 

The premise this reboot seems to be employing is alarming in its implications. Ben's body is apparently lost somewhere in the ether, and he is taking possession of other peoples' bodies, which raises the question of where their consciousness goes, not to mention all sorts of other existential questions about personhood and souls. What exactly is Ben without his body?

[Guest]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Can you specify how the original was vague or contradictory in its premise? I do not recall any such instances. They were quite clear that Sam was switching places with someone, he went back, that person came forward and sat in the waiting room. If you are aware of any episodes that contradict that premise I would like to be reminded of them. 

8 1/2 months is the episode that sticks out to me as raising the most questions. I’ve seen it used to argue both sides. You have Al repeated saying Sam can’t be pregnant with Sam being more certain that he is pregnant. Then the baby disappearing from the waiting room. 

There was also the trilogy episode where Sam leaps into the lawyer with heart problems and needs to take nitroglycerin pills. They frequently wrote the show where it wasn’t clearcut and the physical aura explanation seemed insufficient to explain what was happening. 

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The premise this reboot seems to be employing is alarming in its implications. Ben's body is apparently lost somewhere in the ether, and he is taking possession of other peoples' bodies, which raises the question of where their consciousness goes, not to mention all sorts of other existential questions about personhood and souls. What exactly is Ben without his body?

With the episode where it is revealed that Ian has leaped it feels like they are going with a suppressed and dominant consciousness. Then you have Magic’s description where he let Sam in. 

[iMonrey]

21 hours ago, Dani said:

8 1/2 months is the episode that sticks out to me as raising the most questions. I’ve seen it used to argue both sides. You have Al repeated saying Sam can’t be pregnant with Sam being more certain that he is pregnant. Then the baby disappearing from the waiting room. 

There was also the trilogy episode where Sam leaps into the lawyer with heart problems and needs to take nitroglycerin pills. They frequently wrote the show where it wasn’t clearcut and the physical aura explanation seemed insufficient to explain what was happening. 

I'd have to go back and watch those episodes to comment on the specifics. I'm sure there were episodes that seemed to contradict the premise, but as you pointed out, it was addressed in the dialogue rather than expecting the audience to just hand-wave it.

Regardless, it's a false equivalency to say "the original was just as vague." It wasn't. It had a stated premise from the beginning with the waiting room. This reboot does not, and I maintain the questions it raises are existential in a way the original was not. Saying "oh yeah the original was that way too" is just an excuse to give a pass on the reboot's failure to explain what they think is going on. And I don't feel like it has earned any free passes. The writing is weak and the show doesn't really seem that interested in the actual leaps, let alone the mechanics of how they're supposed to work.

[Guest]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:17 PM, iMonrey said:

I'm sure there were episodes that seemed to contradict the premise, but as you pointed out, it was addressed in the dialogue rather than expecting the audience to just hand-wave it.

It was addressed but in a way that heavily implied the team wasn’t sure. At one point Ziggy throws out a possibility that the baby stayed with Sam and he really was pregnant. 

On 11/15/2023 at 5:17 PM, iMonrey said:

Regardless, it's a false equivalency to say "the original was just as vague." It wasn't.

I disagree. The premise of the show, from the very beginning, was that everything went “caca”. There was always an element that was out of their hands and beyond their understanding. They were making the best guess given what the knew about the science, observation and probability. To me the original was deliberately vague depending on what story they wanted to tell in any episode and did not stick hard and fast to one concept. 

[Driad]

IIRC, Sam could not leap to times before he was born. Why can Ben? (I have not seen all the episodes of either the Sam show or the Ben show, so maybe they explained it and I missed it.)

[KaveDweller]

2 hours ago, Driad said:

IIRC, Sam could not leap to times before he was born. Why can Ben? (I have not seen all the episodes of either the Sam show or the Ben show, so maybe they explained it and I missed it.)

They had a throwaway line last season that they upgraded Ziggy somehow to allow it.

I mean, I don't get it cause Sam's premise was your lifetime is like a string and if you tie the ends together and scrunch it up the points intersect. And he built a machine that let you tie the ends together. So I don't know how an upgrade would just let you time travel anywhere, except that the writers wanted more freedom.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

They had a throwaway line last season that they upgraded Ziggy somehow to allow it.

I mean, I don't get it cause Sam's premise was your lifetime is like a string and if you tie the ends together and scrunch it up the points intersect. And he built a machine that let you tie the ends together. So I don't know how an upgrade would just let you time travel anywhere, except that the writers wanted more freedom.

I think it’s as likely as some higher power deciding to highjack Project Quantum Leap to right wrongs. I have been rewatching the original series and had forgotten how little they understand about the leaps. 

Also, Sam’s original machine has been altered and Ben uploaded new code so that he could target a specific location. The original parameters based on Sam’s original theory no longer apply  

The original did have a couple of leaps outside of Sam’s lifetime with them theorizing why it happened. They always heavily hand waved the science. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Sam leaped into the Civil War era because it was his ancestor, and they theorized that the DNA connection allowed it. 

fwiw, Sam's theory was a theory. For the most part it held up, but as you keep working on it, theories change. Sam's 'body' was always in the waiting room until the end when it wasn't. 

The show now brought up an interesting point in asking is leaping was always a one way trip. 

 

[iMonrey]

On 11/15/2023 at 7:37 PM, Dani said:

To me the original was deliberately vague depending on what story they wanted to tell in any episode and did not stick hard and fast to one concept. 

They were never vague about the waiting room.

Look, even if you believe the original show was equally vague in its premise, which I emphatically do not, it's still no excuse for bad writing. And this reboot is badly written and under-explained. It suffers from trying to balance leap stories with relationship angst and a QL HQ overarching storyline. It's spreading itself too thin and the focus seems to be on the wrong thing.

Bad writing is bad writing, even if you think there's a precedent for it in the original version. That still doesn't make it OK. It's either "just as bad" or "worse." Neither is good. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

They were never vague about the waiting room.

Look, even if you believe the original show was equally vague in its premise, which I emphatically do not, it's still no excuse for bad writing. And this reboot is badly written and under-explained. It suffers from trying to balance leap stories with relationship angst and a QL HQ overarching storyline. It's spreading itself too thin and the focus seems to be on the wrong thing.

Bad writing is bad writing, even if you think there's a precedent for it in the original version. That still doesn't make it OK. It's either "just as bad" or "worse." Neither is good. 

I wasn’t making any statements about the quality of this show or the original. 

[Trini]

It's sci-fi. There's going to be inconsistencies and not everything is going to make sense.  ::shrug::

I do think they've improved some things in the second season.  And I'm enjoying it for what it is, not what the previous show used to be.

[QuantumMechanic]

I actually think Ben (and his actor) is doing a good job as the leaper except for the making almost no effort to hide when he's talking to the hologram.  And I like Ian and Jenn as holograms.

My problem (not unique to the crowd here) is that I cannot stand Addison as a character and cannot stand her interactions with Ben.  And further that I have no interest in any of the "back at QL HQ" stuff.

And yes, while this season still contains those flaws it is still better than last season was.

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm actually interested in what's going on at QL. I like seeing the amount of support that goes into assisting Ben on the leap. Showing everyone reading the book, for example, was a good scene. However, I agree that most of the show should focus on the leap. It's unfortunate that the show only has 42 minutes. Even 5 more minutes would make a big difference. 

[fastiller]

I'm sorry if this has been asked and answered (or answered w/o having been asked): have they explained how the folks at QL HQ can see Ben thru that screen? 

[DoctorAtomic]

They haven't, but on the old show, the imaging chamber was basically how Al interfaces with Sam. I imagine it's similar.