S02.E04: I'm Not the Other Woman, She Is

[TexasGal]

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Anne Lister is drawn back into her complicated past with Mariana during a trip to Lawton Hall. With Anne determined to draw a line under the tempestuous 20-year relationship that Mariana is so desperate to reignite, the women find themselves raking over past heartache. Back at Shibden with her in-laws, Ann Walker receives a visitor of her own, in a sneaky move by her meddling cousins.

Airdate: 05.01.2022

Season 2 episodes are airing in the UK a few weeks earlier than in the US.  Anyone waiting for the US airing - don't enter if you don't want to be spoiled!

[SparedTurkey]

Marian remains amazing. Her interactions with Aunt Ann was hilarious. She is quickly becoming the MVP of this season.

Mariana however, played Anne quite well and it definately shows a lot about their history. Shows something about Anne who caved after a pretty good appeal to her intellect and her conservatively feminist leanings.

[Llywela]

On 5/2/2022 at 11:02 AM, SparedTurkey said:

Mariana however, played Anne quite well and it definitely shows a lot about their history. Shows something about Anne who caved after a pretty good appeal to her intellect and her conservatively feminist leanings.

Indeed. Mariana's air of triumph the next day spoke volumes. She proved she can still manipulate Anne, still has power over Anne, and that was all it took to make her happy. And Anne saw it too, she knew she'd been played like a fiddle. You could almost see her mentally kicking herself.

I love the cosy little Lister family at Shibden, the way they all bounce off one another. They feel so real.

I enjoyed Ann's scene with her wannabe beau. She was positively glowing, talking about Anne and their adventures together, and he could see it and respected it and came clean. The actors really sold their relationship as old childhood chums.

[natyxg]

22 hours ago, Llywela said:

Mariana's air of triumph the next day spoke volumes. She proved she can still manipulate Anne, still has power over Anne, and that was all it took to make her happy

She is even more open about this in the diaries, and I actually hate that they didn't have her verbalize it like it seems she did in real life, because it was one of those moments (and not the only one) when I was blown away by how awful she was or, at the very least,how awful she could be at times.

This is the morning after Anne gives her the final goodbye grubble (they changed it in the show, but in the diaries it was just Anne "grubbling" Mariana):

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Had slept in my clothes. M- came before eight and leaned or lay on the bed till I got up. I don’t think she found out that I was not undress[ed], my night chemise hid all that. She seemed in good spirits, said she had a good night and hoped I had one too. I said not much on this part of the subject. She saw that I did not quite see last night’s business quite as she did. I said let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall [Corinthians 10:12]. She seemed rejoiced at the sort of victory she thought she had gained and argued again at my fancying there was anything wrong in it. [She] said I had done her good and was now much happier, begged me not to affuse her in my heart. I said as little as possible not troubling myself to knock down her arguments but saying the only thing I had thought of as consolation was the telling her I could show all my letters to A-. She made no objection, in fact, should not well make any. She was satisfied to have found as she thought that all her influence over me was not gone. She little dreamt the real state of the case. She had fallen in my opinion. She had been too much in the style of Mrs Milne and I mean to be as little in her way as possible. In time to come she said she still could believe herself belonging to anyone but me.

Here's the actual sex entry, in case anyone wants to read about how bad Anne felt even during it:

Spoiler

 

M- began kissing me and we got into such tonguing warm work that she got excited. I kept my hands over her clothes and my arms decently around her till the right [hand] wandered to queer, outside, till I took up her petticoats and put it to her and I gave her a thorough grubbling. I think she will have her cousin for it. I certainly felt oddish, but no wish to be near her myself, though she said in the midst, “can you not come near to me for a minute or two”. I made no reply but went on never opening my eyes. She asked if I loved her; I merely said yes. When I’d look at her it was in silence, neither as if ashamed nor as if attendrie nor caring much. I was grave and silent. She said she was better and hoped I should have a good night. What is the meaning of all this? Can this be the conduct of a pure minded virtuous woman! I despise it. She has tried all ways to upset me. I have done what I have done, but she shall never gain more nor ever. I hope a repetition even of this. I could have done without it, but somehow, I thought [to] gratify her with one parting grubble. I ought not to have been, but I will try to turn it to some good account by telling her I shall show her letters and by keeping out of the way. My respect for her is gone.

She read me Mr C[rewe]’s last letter, long and written at different times according to her request. Nothing absolutely improper might be read aloud, but the understanding between them is evident. How will it end? He is a gambler. I told her today I’d not think that right and was sorry for it.

She sends A- a little pocketbook yet she will try to lead me astray from her! But she shall not do worse and I hope, and I trust the scene of tonight cannot recur. Is this the chaste and quiet M-? I will keep out of her way and Mr C[rewe]’s too as well as I can.

 

https://annelister538400391.wordpress.com/2019/06/18/25-december-1834/

https://annelister538400391.wordpress.com/2019/06/18/26-december-1834/

[natyxg]

So, i've been putting off commenting on this episode because I'm so tired of Mariana fucking Lawton. I like Lydia (the actress) and I think she has good chemistry with Suranne, but can she just go away now. Enough. No more.

This is one of those episodes that can be read in two very different ways.

I've read too much of the long, excruciating, and toxic, long term relationship that real Mariana and real Anne had to see the whole episode as anything other than the same old, same old: Mariana fearing that her hold on Anne is slipping, so she launches a strong offense that pushes all the buttons she knows will work, until Anne, who will never be 100% immune to her because it really is a long history and in her mind was some epic love, gives in. Mariana tries claiming she will die without her and threatening suicide, then its on to belittling Ann Walker as much as she can, then she tries remembering the good old times followed by painting herself of some victim of her family, then its on to sympathy because her life with Charles is ~SO HARD~... and when she gets what she wanted, the reassurance that she can still get Anne to do what she wants, suddenly she will no longer die without her, her life is suddenly not so hard after all and she's all smiles. She was a narcissist suffering because her toy was slipping from her and now that she thinks that's not true, she can drop the pretense and probably really does feel better after having that sex.

Now, other people can take all Mariana says at face value and see the whole episode as evidence of how Mariana was the true love of Anne's life and they were separated by her family (pffs) and Anne would've conquered empires for her (pffs) and she's now simply settling with Ann Walker, for whom she doesn't have anywhere near the same love or the same passion as she did, or does, for Mariana. I don't think what we've seen in the show so far lines up with that, nor does the real story, but it's an inevitable possible interpretation after an episode like that.

I didn't like any of it, specially because they changed quite a bit from the diaries in the episode, and now have made the show worse, at least to my liking. And it didn't have to be shown the way it was.

But anyway, moving on to the Ann(e)s, their scene was beautiful and clearly meant to be a contrast to the one with Mariana. We've never seen Anne naked and vulnerable before, and I do think her "I love you" is meant to be sincere. But it bothered me that the scene was short and abruptly cut. That was weird. And Ann was a bit odd during it, so I wonder if that's a thread that the show will follow, since it does make you wonder if Ann's demeanor is because she suspects something happened at Lawton. She seemed more pensive than aroused, even more so after Ann's "I love you".

I don't give a shit about canals and truly have no idea about what they're talking about when they talk about single locks, double locks or who the hell knows. Nor do I care. But that ending really felt like they were closing the door on the first half of the season and a new era begins. Let's see if it's better than the first half.

[Glade]

Seeing Anne congratulating herself for putting the slave girl "in her place," for daring to read books instead of mop the floors is revolting.  Anne's devout tory politics, when the Whigs were actually cutting back on child labor and fighting for the abolition of slavery is gross too.  It really makes this show not only occasionally boring, but despicable.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Glade

[Llywela]

48 minutes ago, Glade said:

Seeing Anne congratulating herself for putting the slave girl "in her place," for daring to read books instead of mop the floors is revolting.  Anne's devout tory politics, when the Whigs were actually cutting back on child labor and fighting for the abolition of slavery is gross too.  It really makes this show not only occasionally boring, but despicable.

Servant girl, not slave. She'd be receiving a wage, scant though it was. And technically she had the right to leave, although she'd then be stranded far from home, with no reference to help get another job and parents who could not really afford to take her back. Still a servant not a slave.

Otherwise, yes. Anne's politics are fairly typical of someone of her station at the time, but look pretty poor from a modern perspective.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Llywela

[gingerella]

I was rather disgusted with Anne giving in to Mariana's insistence that she essentially cheat on Ann. Then Mariana's smugness the next morning was repulsive. I give that actress credit because I well and truly loathe her now. It's sad that Anne's family is so into making sure that Ann feels at home with them, but also worried that Anne is going to make a fool of Ann by cheating on her. Aunt Anne knows what's what, that's for sure! I really enjoyed the scenes where they were at Shibden just being themselves with Ann, those were lovely quiet scenes. And of course Marion continues to make me chuckle!

The scene where Marion and her father go to visit Ann's old crabby aunt was odd. Crabby wasn't that rude with them at all, considering how she was last time, and I wonder why Ann didn't go with them as she'd have been able to have allies with her.

Liked the guy who backed down from trying to get her to marry him, there's one nice guy with a conscious in the general York area right now!

And I loved Anne's speech to the men during that vote on the locks and canals, she's the only one who bothered to read the damn report. She is heads and tails above anyone in that town, man, woman, or otherwise.

[Chicken Fingers]

Thanks for the input related to the original diaries. I'll probably never get around to reading them, and it's really interesting to hear about what's left out of the show.

[izabella]

On 5/7/2022 at 1:45 PM, natyxg said:

I've read too much of the long, excruciating, and toxic, long term relationship that real Mariana and real Anne had to see the whole episode as anything other than the same old, same old: Mariana fearing that her hold on Anne is slipping, so she launches a strong offense that pushes all the buttons she knows will work, until Anne, who will never be 100% immune to her because it really is a long history and in her mind was some epic love, gives in. Mariana tries claiming she will die without her and threatening suicide, then its on to belittling Ann Walker as much as she can, then she tries remembering the good old times followed by painting herself of some victim of her family, then its on to sympathy because her life with Charles is ~SO HARD~... and when she gets what she wanted, the reassurance that she can still get Anne to do what she wants, suddenly she will no longer die without her, her life is suddenly not so hard after all and she's all smiles. She was a narcissist suffering because her toy was slipping from her and now that she thinks that's not true, she can drop the pretense and probably really does feel better after having that sex.

I haven't read anything of the diaries and am totally new to this relationship, but that's exactly how it came across to me, too.  Mariana is a real piece of work.  Her suicide threats were pure manipulation.  While I'm sure she felt desperate at the thought of losing Anne's devotion to her, her "cat who ate the canary" smiles the day after their tryst showed her true colors and motives. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by izabella

[sugarbaker design]

15 hours ago, gingerella said:

Liked the guy who backed down from trying to get her to marry him, there's one nice guy with a conscious in the general York area right now!

Got the impression he was gay and envious of A&A's situation.

It's not often that Lister shows fear or apprehension, but in that last scene SJ really pulled it off.

Was it revealed what Mariana's gift to Ann Walker was?

[natyxg]

On 5/18/2022 at 4:11 PM, gingerella said:

The scene where Marion and her father go to visit Ann's old crabby aunt was odd. Crabby wasn't that rude with them at all, considering how she was last time, and I wonder why Ann didn't go with them as she'd have been able to have allies with her.

Marian invited Ann to go with them, but Ann didn't want to go because her Aunt treated her poorly the last time she went.

12 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Got the impression he was gay and envious of A&A's situation.

Don't know about the second part, but my gayday pinged with him a bit. I don't know if it was on purpose or not. I mean, this was a real dude, not invented for the show.

12 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Was it revealed what Mariana's gift to Ann Walker was?

Mariana said it was "a pretty little pocket book".

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, natyxg said:

Mariana said it was "a pretty little pocket book".

She could be lying!

[tennisgurl]

Mariana seemed really manipulative in her interactions with Anne, even pulling the old "if you leave me I'll kill myself" ploy, its hard to even tell how much of what she ever says is true or not. It sucks that Anne ended up cheating on Ann, on top of lying to her about the the nature of their relationship, while Anne's family is trying to make Ann feel at home and she misses Anne, although she does still seem committed to staying with her. I also like that she stood up for Ann when Mariana basically called her stupid, sometimes it does feel like Anne does not think much of Ann's intellect (although more because she's sheltered than unintelligent) so its good to confirm that she does appreciate her spirit. Mariana does seem to be in a pretty bad spot and she does seem to love Anne, but Mariana seems to mostly want Anne back now that she has someone else and she's annoyed that her backup plan went and moved on without her. Like its more about winning than being in love, she looked so smug the next day to prove that Anne isn't as over her as she says she is.

Anne continues to be very old school when it comes to class, its funny how a person can be so progressive in some ways and so conservative in others. Her lecture to the servant girl lined out her old school English class beliefs pretty well, that everyone is born into their class to do the jobs that that class has been assigned to do and keep society running. To do anything else or to try or raise above your status is just ridiculous and against the natural order of things. 

I liked Ann's old friend who came by who accepted her turning down his proposal with grace, he seems like a nice guy and a good friend to have. They really felt like old pals playing catch up. 

My favorite scenes are always the family scenes at home, they have this warm quality and Ann fits right in. She looks so different with her hair down, it sometimes takes me a second to recognize her.

[natyxg]

On 5/19/2022 at 10:09 PM, sugarbaker design said:

She could be lying!

😂😂

[Emily Thrace]

On 5/9/2022 at 1:58 AM, Glade said:

Seeing Anne congratulating herself for putting the slave girl "in her place," for daring to read books instead of mop the floors is revolting.  Anne's devout tory politics, when the Whigs were actually cutting back on child labor and fighting for the abolition of slavery is gross too.  It really makes this show not only occasionally boring, but despicable.

Eh, I think Anne is a fascinating character and a realistic one. I find it ridiculous and often offensive when shows white wash historical figures. Like Julia the show making Julia Child a lot more feminist and LGBT positive than she actually was. I feel like history should be told honestly otherwise we are papering over a lot of the struggles of real people. It takes away all nuance if someone must be 20th century woke to be good. It minimizes discrimination if the only people who do it are evil. It also seriously limits the stories that can be told truthfully if we judge everyone by today's standard.

Anne Lister is a fascinating person not telling her story or even re-writing it because she was a Tory would be a mistake. Anne's politics were a direct result of who she was and the times she grew up in. Of course she is a Tory its the only way she can protect the life of privilege she has. Without the protection of money and class she would not be able to live as she does. Anne probably would have to been forced to be married and have children if it wasn't for her inheritance. That's why the Gentleman Jack insult landed so hard there is a lot implied violence behind those words. Outspoken women in those days were often beaten or raped back into their place. By voting Tory Anne ensures her own safety.

I also think its not that Anne doesn't care about slaves or child labour. I think she just sees the current system as necessary and that everyone has work to do and must "get on with it". I also think Anne for all her study has blindspots and limitations like anyone. Even as an educated woman there are things like the life of slave are something she would have no knowledge of and no real way to get knowledge of. I also think Anne is a bit limited in general when it comes to sympathy. She expects every to just deal because she does. She just doesn't get that its not that easy for some. Which is perfectly fitting for someone as wealthy as she is.