S03.E12: We're All Mad Here

[Trini]

Ryan, Sophie, and Jada come together to formulate a plan to stop Marquis, while Mary seeks to make amends for the harm she did as Poison Ivy. Meanwhile, Alice continues to spiral out of control and contend with her mental demons.

Eric Dean Stanton directed the episode written by Maya Houston and Daphne Miles.

Airdate: 2/23/2022

 

[Trini]

 

[Primal Slayer]

yeah this was a stupid episode. I'm supposed to believe that Joker wannabe was able to abduct some of Gothams elite? A falcone? They introduce Jim Gordon's wife, Barbara's mom....and they basically kill her off with all of 2 lines? This whole arc has been boring. Ivy jr outs Batwomans identity and Alice outs the batcave? Thank god there is only 1 episode left.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Primal Slayer

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

yeah this was a stupid episode. I'm supposed to believe that Joker wannabe was able to abduct some of Gothams elite? A falcone? They introduce Jim Gordon's wife, Barbara's mom....and they basically kill her off with all of 2 lines? This whole arc has been boring. Ivy jr outs Batwomans identity and Alice outs the batcave? Thank god there is only 1 episode left.

I mean, with enough money and planning time, you can get to anybody.

I think Barbara Kean is still alive at the end of this one.

For Batwoman, it was overall pretty decent, I feel.

[Diapason Untuned]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I mean, with enough money and planning time, you can get to anybody.

I think Barbara Kean is still alive at the end of this one.

For Batwoman, it was overall pretty decent, I feel.

Not to mention he runs in the same social circles.

Yeah, Barbara was still alive at the end there. The idea that BGS was basically using untested illegal medicine on their kids in private to avoid having to give them therapy and risk people knowing their kid is messed up was an interesting one.

Rachel Skarsten played Alice going insane pretty well. Glad to see she's finally hallucinating Mouse and not just Ocean.

[Trini]

This episode was actually fairly light on Batwoman/the Bat Team. It was mostly Alice and Marquis/Jada.

I guess it's cool that Skarsten is getting material to work with, but I still can't sympathize with Alice. On her way to supposedly trying to fix herself, she's still dropping bodies and doing terrible things. (Even within her delusions!) The show keeps giving these teases about her redemption, but at this point, I don't think they will actually do it. Which is fine! Just stop with the teases. Anyway, I did like seeing Ocean and Mouse one more time.

So I guess the hard conversation between Mary and Alice and Mary's willingness to confess to killing that guy is the "consolation prize" since Mary's not actually going to go to prison.

It really feels like they had to shorten all the arcs to fit the shortened season. I think Creegan is good as a villain; but we haven't had enough time with him to really establish him as the "big bad". With only one episode left, we still don't know what his plans for Gotham are.

And he killed off Kiki! Why would you do that to one of your better guest stars??

... And now Marquis has the Batcave. [insert my regular rant about Bruce being pissed] Look - a villain breaching the heroes' headquarters should be a big deal, but this show has done it too many times! Next season, the Bat Team should just get a new place.

I guess the Marquis/Joker/Alice connection was a big reveal for Alice; but was supposed to be for the audience? Because since hearing about the Joy Buzzer incident, I always assumed it was the same incident with the Kanes and Joker.

But speaking of the Joy Buzzer; it's still hilarious to me that everyone thinks that it will fix anyone's brain. I hope it doesn't.

But to end on a positive note: I like the dynamic of Sophie and Jada both caring for Ryan, yet being in opposition to each other.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

This episode was actually fairly light on Batwoman/the Bat Team. It was mostly Alice and Marquis/Jada.

I guess it's cool that Skarsten is getting material to work with, but I still can't sympathize with Alice. On her way to supposedly trying to fix herself, she's still dropping bodies and doing terrible things. (Even within her delusions!) The show keeps giving these teases about her redemption, but at this point, I don't think they will actually do it. Which is fine! Just stop with the teases. Anyway, I did like seeing Ocean and Mouse one more time.

So I guess the hard conversation between Mary and Alice and Mary's willingness to confess to killing that guy is the "consolation prize" since Mary's not actually going to go to prison.

It really feels like they had to shorten all the arcs to fit the shortened season. I think Creegan is good as a villain; but we haven't had enough time with him to really establish him as the "big bad". With only one episode left, we still don't know what his plans for Gotham are.

And he killed off Kiki! Why would you do that to one of your better guest stars??

... And now Marquis has the Batcave. [insert my regular rant about Bruce being pissed] Look - a villain breaching the heroes' headquarters should be a big deal, but this show has done it too many times! Next season, the Bat Team should just get a new place.

I guess the Marquis/Joker/Alice connection was a big reveal for Alice; but was supposed to be for the audience? Because since hearing about the Joy Buzzer incident, I always assumed it was the same incident with the Kanes and Joker.

But speaking of the Joy Buzzer; it's still hilarious to me that everyone thinks that it will fix anyone's brain. I hope it doesn't.

But to end on a positive note: I like the dynamic of Sophie and Jada both caring for Ryan, yet being in opposition to each other.

I think Marquis has been pretty fun to watch, but really, what has he accomplished as a villain? Not much beyond coasting on other people's actions and/or the Bat-team's incompetence/unwillingness to act.

He killed some randoms like the security guard at Wayne Tower but the Bat-team didn't have him prosecuted for that because reasons.

He beat up Luke when Luke was wounded.

He sicced Zsasz on Mommy but that failed.

He recruited a bunch of rich people to be lieutenants but as far as we saw that went nowhere.

He took over Wayne Enterprises, but Jada paved the way for that by weakening Ryan's position, and he still needed Ryan to sign off on resigning.

He somehow kept the heroes from using the Batcave inadvertently (are we really to believe the only access point is Wayne Tower? Or that when they did get in the last time, they wouldn't set up any precautions to prevent Marquis or anyone else from accessing it? I guess we have to)

I would say that his plot this episode had him at his most successful. 

Compare that with Black Mask, who had half the City hooked on Snake Bite including Jake Kane, who had the police commissioner assassinated, and who brainwashed OG Batwoman into doing his bidding. 

In terms of the Marquis/Joker/Alice connection, I hadn't remembered that there was a school bus involved in the crash that caused Kate/Alice/their mom to go over the bridge. I remembered that there was a pursuit of the Joker involved, but hadn't connected it to Marquis's being changed.

[Diapason Untuned]

4 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think Marquis has been pretty fun to watch, but really, what has he accomplished as a villain? Not much beyond coasting on other people's actions and/or the Bat-team's incompetence/unwillingness to act.

He killed some randoms like the security guard at Wayne Tower but the Bat-team didn't have him prosecuted for that because reasons.

He beat up Luke when Luke was wounded.

He sicced Zsasz on Mommy but that failed.

He recruited a bunch of rich people to be lieutenants but as far as we saw that went nowhere.

He took over Wayne Enterprises, but Jada paved the way for that by weakening Ryan's position, and he still needed Ryan to sign off on resigning.

He somehow kept the heroes from using the Batcave inadvertently (are we really to believe the only access point is Wayne Tower? Or that when they did get in the last time, they wouldn't set up any precautions to prevent Marquis or anyone else from accessing it? I guess we have to)

I would say that his plot this episode had him at his most successful. 

Compare that with Black Mask, who had half the City hooked on Snake Bite including Jake Kane, who had the police commissioner assassinated, and who brainwashed OG Batwoman into doing his bidding. 

In terms of the Marquis/Joker/Alice connection, I hadn't remembered that there was a school bus involved in the crash that caused Kate/Alice/their mom to go over the bridge. I remembered that there was a pursuit of the Joker involved, but hadn't connected it to Marquis's being changed.

That's another point of commonalty with him and Alice. She was allowed to go free much longer than she should have because of Kate and Marquis is succeeding much more as a villain than he should have because of Jada and Ryan

[Trini]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

He somehow kept the heroes from using the Batcave inadvertently (are we really to believe the only access point is Wayne Tower? Or that when they did get in the last time, they wouldn't set up any precautions to prevent Marquis or anyone else from accessing it? I guess we have to)

There are other access points (that the writers room has totally forgotten about) that were mentioned in seasons 1 and 2. And I also was thinking that there should be some sort of lockdown protocol for the Batcave. At the very least, Marquis shouldn't be able to access the computers or related tech without a password and/or identity check. (But I'm sure he will -- sigh.)

[Trini]

One other positive thing; I do like Marquis' Joker outfits. The "blood"-stained leather jacket in this episode really works for his character:

 

[Lantern7]

Fun episode, especially when you remember most of it hinged on a souped-up joy buzzer. And while I get how Alice taking the blame for the guy Mary killed is cheap . . . we still get Mary putting two and two together about Ryan and Sophie. So cute.

*sigh* Am I weird for hearing Barbara Kean and immediately getting my hopes up that Erin Richards would port that character from Gotham? Yeah, I'm weird. This one wasn't much to watch, though we do get a namedrop for James Gordon's own mentally fucked-up son. Maybe he pops up next season? Maybe with Marquis? Honestly, though, I don't know if Marquis exists past the finale.

I'm really hoping that Marquis doesn't go full Joker. I've been saying that for most of this season, and I fear we'll end up with a more traditional Joker. I like Marquis as he is now. He can call himself "Joker," but he's  not totally psychotic. He's just damaged enough to kidnap people and fuck with them before committing murder.

You'd think with Jada being on high alert, she'd look at the person driving the limo before getting in. Also: it is really weird for someone other than Joe West to say "baby girl."

Alice is still going through Alice shit . . . and she let Marquis know about the Batcave. It's great that she can ask viewers for sympathy and pull off a "fuck you" move in one episode.

[Cress]

4 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

we still get Mary putting two and two together about Ryan and Sophie. So cute.

It was so great seeing her happy and smiling. They've been writing her so dark and depressed lately.

[thuganomics85]

Man, they already killed off Kiki?  A waste of Judy Reyes!

So, Alice has now gone so far off the deep end now that she is actually seeing both Mouse and Ocean in her head.  Cool seeing them both again at least (especially the former), and the actors seemed to be enjoying themselves.  But I still can't figure out the endgame for Alice here.  It certainly feels like they want me to feel for her and root for her redemption, and Rachel Skarsten is certainly doing what she can to almost make it work.  But it still doesn't even feel close to being earned.  I get I was suppose to be impressed that she took the fall for Poison Mary's kill, but that's like the barest minimum at this point.

After the Montoya casting this season, I briefly wondered if they were going to sneak in Erin Richards as Barbara Kean, but once they revealed the whole son bit and her being the ex of "Commissioner Gordon", I figured she would have had to be older for this one.  I do wonder if we will see her again (and maybe the son too?)

Mary's reaction to figuring out about Ryan and Sophie might be my favorite thing so far about the actual Ryan/Sophie relationship.  And, of course, Luke would still be dense enough that he would have to have it spelled out to him.

Thanks to Alice, Marquis has now made himself home in the Batcave!  Once again, if he's still out there, Bruce is throwing something and yelling "Damn you all!"

[AD35]

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Thanks to Alice, Marquis has now made himself home in the Batcave!  Once again, if he's still out there, Bruce is throwing something and yelling "Damn you all!"

It probably wouldn't be a proper Arrowverse show if the so-called "secret location" wasn't about as secret as a local Starbucks or Barnes & Noble.

[AnimeMania]

Sophie is useless Jada Jett gets kidnapped and the car was getting away, if only there was another car close by she could have hopped into and tried to follow them.

Mary is happy that someone else claimed responsibility for a murder that she committed. Is that all it takes to clear her conscience. Pathetic.

[yellowfred]

So, I've been thinking about it a bit, and I think the thing that bothers me so much about Alice and Mary's storyline this season (other than the obvious "she killed your mom in front of you" part) is how much it conflates a lot of the themes around mental health, redemption, and consequences.  Like, if Mary actually feels bad enough about accidentally killing that guy that she was about to go confess to it (to be clear, she was doing this with zero outside pressure) why would Alice taking the fall for it be a good thing?  It makes it seem, at least on the surface, that Mary was upset about killing someone because she might go to prison, not because she actually feels bad about it, which I don't think was the intention of the writers. 

Likewise, Alice wants the joy buzzer because she doesn't want to have to feel guilty about the things she's done, but if it worked the way she seems to want it to, it would most likely have the opposite effect.  The part where she fantasizes about getting to use the joy buzzer doesn't even really touch on her feelings of guilt, but rather on the fact that she doesn't have to face punishment for her actions any more.  Not to mention, for some reason, they assume that her delusional episodes might be cured by the joy buzzer, but that doesn't even track with the already far fetched thing that they've told us the joy buzzer does. 

I also think it was maybe a bad call to have Mary be Alice's main connection to the Bat Team, while also having Mary be kind of disconnected from the team all season.
 

On 2/24/2022 at 8:44 AM, Trini said:

I guess the Marquis/Joker/Alice connection was a big reveal for Alice; but was supposed to be for the audience? Because since hearing about the Joy Buzzer incident, I always assumed it was the same incident with the Kanes and Joker.

Yeah, I was a little surprised they played it for as much of a reveal as they did, since I thought we were basically told that in 3x05.  Then again, maybe I was the idiot for assuming that the Joker probably only hijacked one school bus around that time.

[Trini]

11 hours ago, yellowfred said:

I also think it was maybe a bad call to have Mary be Alice's main connection to the Bat Team, while also having Mary be kind of disconnected from the team all season.

With Kate and Jacob gone, they had to have someone advocate for Alice's redemption and Mary is the best choice out of the current cast. However, I think it brought Mary down for the most part, although it gave her a story. (... But she could have had other stories.)

I wish they'd mention Jacob occasionally. I know he's off the show, but he was a regular character for two seasons, and the father of two current characters, so it's weird pretending he doesn't exist.