S03.E08: Trust Destiny

[Trini]

Mary and Alice continue their sisterly bonding, Ryan, Luke and Sophie are desperate and willing to do almost anything to stop them...even entertaining a dangerous proposition by Renee Montoya that finally rid Gotham of Pamela Isley (Bridget Regan). As the team hunts for the source of Poison Mary's power - and potential demise - Renee is forced to revisit her heartbreaking past. Meanwhile, Marquis grows more unhinged and throws a spectacularly sinister soiree at Wayne Tower...and everyone is invited.

Marshall Virtue directed the episode written by Ebony Gilbert and Daphne Miles.

Airdate: 1/12/2022

[Primal Slayer]

For the most part I enjoyed it though for some reason while I watching this episode I was like "this show is so cheap" lol which I know but it just hit home for me in this episode. 

While they went a bit over the top with Joker Jr....they went to lowkey with Poison Ivy. I love me some Ivy, she looks great in the show, screams Poison Ivy but....our first introduction to her was a bit lackluster. I know it's a flashback but..having her walk out of the woods, do her vine gag, and then walk back into the woods was just cheap. Imagine if they had them go into the forest, calling for Ivy, she comes down on a vine swing thing and the scene plays out similarly. I know it's a bit more expensive but you gotta be a bit more colorful when you got Pam around.

Mary/Alice are a great dynamic duo, I enjoy them and their little hotel bits but the writers are being a bit basic with what a "Poison Ivy" is. Ivy isn't just another person who can mind control you just by looking at you. There are pheromones involved, either you gotta smell what she's cooking or lock lips so that scene was a bit of a letdown. 

Ryan/Sophie/Luke are a fun team together. Good dynamics and having Ryan/Sophie/Renee team up was even better. The whole elevator scene was fun with the back and forth. 

That brings me to...secret identities. They just throwing them out left and right tonight! Is nothing sacred? Renee knows Batman is Bruce, Joker Jr. knows that Ryan/Luke are Bats. Could Mary really think of nothing better than to reveal their identities?

Some random thoughts:
We've gone the entire season with Wayne Enterprises being a ghost town, no one caring that this random chick is running things but NOW there are people who oppose Marquis being in charge? We see actual people who may work there?

Are we really supposed to believe that Bruce Wayne out of everyone wouldnt have a Wayne Enterprises that is more tech heavy and hard to break into? Marquis comes in and just gives the place a giant upgrade with all these features. 

Out of all the baddies that Batman routinely puts in Arkham, he thinks that they couldnt handle Poison Ivy so he puts her beneath the Batcave? Where if she were to ever wake up could probably topple the place?

Are they so cheap that they cant even change Montoyas hairstyle for a flashback that coincides with present day? I know they must've filmed the scene on the same day but come on now....at least change the side that its parted on!

[Trini]

Quick thoughts:

Dang - surprised Marquis is taken down so soon. We were just getting started with New!Joker.

So... Poison Mary just wants attention? I know she's been corrupted by the infection, but I'm not really getting her motivations.

Every time someone else gets access to the Batcave and/or learns Batman's secret identity, Bruce is somewhere like:

I'd say we're almost at Barry Allen levels of exposure, but Bruce isn't telling everyone, it's everyone else outing him!

Was not expecting a Renee/Ivy love story out of this. I know Renee feels guilty and everything, but I don't see how reviving Pamela is going to end any better than last time.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Trini

[Chicago Redshirt]

I'm wanting more out of Poison Mary than we got this episode. There's no reason she should want/need to enlist Marquis's help to mess with Ryan and the Batfam, other than TPTB want to have a scene with her sexy-dancing with him. She has actual superpowers and in her previous encounters with Ryan and Luke, they have shown no ability to stop her when she uses them. She was all the way in Metropolis and yes, Luke had somehow frozen her assets. But there was nothing stopping her from going to whatever bank and saying, "Hey, I'm Mary Hamilton, millionaire/billionaire, and someone is screwing with my accounts. Please fix it." Unless I'm misremembering, there is nothing showing that Mary Hamilton is a criminal at all.

More to the point, since she can hypnotize her way out of basically any problem, she could just have people hand her money or whatever she wants.

What exactly does Marquis bring to the table here? Especially if Poison Mary's motivation is just to be left alone by Ryan and Luke rather than to have them killed? Maybe if PM wants them dead but can't bring herself to do it herself, I could buy bringing Marcus into the fold. 

Mary raised a few good points about Ryan having no idea how the dessicant MacGuffin might work on her. Which Ryan just ignored when she used it on Marcus. Indeed, it's worse because presumably Ryan has various other weapons she could have used on Marcus and also there's very good reason to think that the body chemistry of Marcus is nothing like that of Pamela Isley and therefore he would be affected differently, possibly worse.

One of the issues is that the Batfam has not bothered wondering how Mary became Poison Mary. I think it's fairly clear, at least given this episode's revelations, that Renee helped dose her to set all this in motion. I don't like the character assassination of Renee Montoya, and I'm not wild about the notion that Batman chose to put Poison Ivy in a catatonic state under the Batcave for 10 years. A little harsh, especially if we're to believe most people got the "take them to Arkham and hope they don't get kept in the revolving doors" treatment. 

Perhaps the Batfam will finally learn: don't bring outsiders to the Batcave. No good can come of it.

[akg]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Which Ryan just ignored when she used it on Marcus. Indeed, it's worse because presumably Ryan has various other weapons she could have used on Marcus and also there's very good reason to think that the body chemistry of Marcus is nothing like that of Pamela Isley and therefore he would be affected differently, possibly worse.

I agree that injecting Marquis was a huge risk but, if she wanted to get him away from Luke, she didn't have a choice. Marquis wasn't going to let her grab anything else to throw.

I wish they'd done a better job of explaining how the Poison Ivy personality/infection/whatever affects people. How much of this new Mary is still her and how much is because of what's happening to her? She doesn't seem interested at all in saving the planet or protecting plants which is what I would have expected. Instead, she just seems focused on punishing her former friends which, without a clearer picture of what's going on, just feels of character for her and badly written (to me) instead of villainous. What about Poison Ivy is making her listen to Alice? And give away Batwoman's identity?

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, akg said:

I agree that injecting Marquis was a huge risk but, if she wanted to get him away from Luke, she didn't have a choice. Marquis wasn't going to let her grab anything else to throw.

I wish they'd done a better job of explaining how the Poison Ivy personality/infection/whatever affects people. How much of this new Mary is still her and how much is because of what's happening to her? She doesn't seem interested at all in saving the planet or protecting plants which is what I would have expected. Instead, she just seems focused on punishing her former friends which, without a clearer picture of what's going on, just feels of character for her and badly written (to me) instead of villainous. What about Poison Ivy is making her listen to Alice? And give away Batwoman's identity?

I can buy that Poison Mary has fallen for Alice's line of bullshit (and put to the side that Alice is not just a general purpose crazy serial killer but specifically killed Mary's mom and nearly killed Mary) because she's under the influence of the Poison part and because Alice has been playing to the specific "the rest of the BatFam doesn't really listen to or care about you" insecurities. With her mind somewhat scrambled, it's at least plausible that she then comes to the conclusion that Alice is a good kind of crazy or "she may be a crazy serial killer, but at least she's honest with me. and pays attention to me." or "As long as I'm heading toward supervilliainry, I need a mentor and Alice is what I've got."

This episode, Alice gave Mary the advice that to get the rest of the Batfam to leave her alone, she had to do something they couldn't forgive. So I guess I could see that ratting them out to Marquis might in her mind fit that category. 

But I wish they gave Poison Mary better characterization.

[BeautifulFlower]

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I can buy that Poison Mary has fallen for Alice's line of bullshit (and put to the side that Alice is not just a general purpose crazy serial killer but specifically killed Mary's mom and nearly killed Mary) because she's under the influence of the Poison part and because Alice has been playing to the specific "the rest of the BatFam doesn't really listen to or care about you" insecurities. With her mind somewhat scrambled, it's at least plausible that she then comes to the conclusion that Alice is a good kind of crazy or "she may be a crazy serial killer, but at least she's honest with me. and pays attention to me." or "As long as I'm heading toward supervilliainry, I need a mentor and Alice is what I've got."

This episode, Alice gave Mary the advice that to get the rest of the Batfam to leave her alone, she had to do something they couldn't forgive. So I guess I could see that ratting them out to Marquis might in her mind fit that category. 

But I wish they gave Poison Mary better characterization.

But even under the effects, Mary shouldn't be listening to Alice at all. If Poison Mary is mad that Ryan and Luke ignored her, then she should we be FURIOUS that Alice killed her mom. So, it makes no sense to me.

Moving on, Mary can't be mad at Ryan and Luke for dealing with their own problems. Okay, they can't help that. Ignoring her? Sure, I understand. Her being upset that she felt like "the least of Ryan's problem" at the end made me mad. She saw that Luke had a gun to his head. What did she want Ryan to do? Put her first and have Luke get shot? I was confused on why she was mad over that.

But yeah, I agree you that Poison Mary needs better characterization. I'm starting to agree with that person on twitter who is confused on why Poison Mary is angry with Ryan so much. They feel like it's left over feelings from how Kate treated Mary.

[tennisgurl]

How does Renee think this is going to go? I guess she just decided that being with Pamela is worth her girlfriend being an ecoterrorist, and that's no longer a deal breaker? Because, if anything, she'll be even more pissed about being left under the Batcave. Sophie really just has no luck with women.

Poor Bruce needs to get home soon, his company is not only being run into the ground, but the Bat Team is letting everyone into the Batcave and telling anyone who asks who Batman is. 

As much fun as Poison Mary is, they really need to better explain her motivation. I guess the point is that Mary isn't really herself and is basically losing it the way Pamela did, but her whole "you don't care about me!" stuff worked alright for what pushed her away, but now it seems nonsensical, like being mad that Ryan saved Luke from being shot in the head. That's not "your the least of my problems" its "our friend is about to have his head blown off" which is pretty much always going to be the biggest problem, regardless of Ryan's usual priorities. I assume later on we will find out that this is all a part of the serum and its not supposed to make sense, but for the motivation of a major character going dark side, I think we need either more rationality or more crazy. Make it clear how much Mary is even in the drivers seat at this point. 

Not a bad return, even if I do hope we can get Mary back soon, the team dynamic is just wrong without her. 

[thuganomics85]

Poor Bruce.  I think everyone in Gotham is going to know his identity by the time this is all done.  And I think more folks have gotten a tour of the Batcave already in comparison to when they pretty much opened up the Arrow Lair to all comers on that show.

Happy to finally get Bridget Regan as Pamela Isley/OG Poison Ivy.  A little more subtle than I thought, but I do like that they seem to be leaning more towards the her being an ecoterrorist route instead of the seductress one, which has admittedly been overplayed by now.  Of course, Renee is clearly letting her emotions get the better of her and will likely massively regret freeing her.  It's not like Pamela is suddenly not going to want to flood the streets of Gotham in order to save the trees!

Surprised that they already briefly removed Marquis off the board.  But now that he knows all of their identities as well, I'm not sure how thy are going to fix this outside of killing him or having him lose his memories somehow.

Poison Mary is still fun and Nicole Kang is having a ball here, but her characterization is still wonky.  I get that the serum is suppose to be amplifying her emotions and judgement, but I find it hard to buy that she is now going full tilt with trying to scorch Team Batwoman for under-appreciating her, but still willing to chill out with Alice of all people at the same time.  This would all make way more sense if she was also out for Alice's blood as well, but them being BFFs instead just messes that all up.  Hell, that might make for a more interesting story to me: Poison Mary and Alice turning Gotham into a war zone trying to get at one another, with Ryan and Team Batwoman trying to put out all of the fires.

Fun return though.  Admittedly, I'm biased because I'm just happy to see Bridget Regan on my TV screen again!

[Chicago Redshirt]

40 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Poor Bruce.  I think everyone in Gotham is going to know his identity by the time this is all done.  And I think more folks have gotten a tour of the Batcave already in comparison to when they pretty much opened up the Arrow Lair to all comers on that show.

Happy to finally get Bridget Regan as Pamela Isley/OG Poison Ivy.  A little more subtle than I thought, but I do like that they seem to be leaning more towards the her being an ecoterrorist route instead of the seductress one, which has admittedly been overplayed by now.  Of course, Renee is clearly letting her emotions get the better of her and will likely massively regret freeing her.  It's not like Pamela is suddenly not going to want to flood the streets of Gotham in order to save the trees!

Surprised that they already briefly removed Marquis off the board.  But now that he knows all of their identities as well, I'm not sure how thy are going to fix this outside of killing him or having him lose his memories somehow.

Poison Mary is still fun and Nicole Kang is having a ball here, but her characterization is still wonky.  I get that the serum is suppose to be amplifying her emotions and judgement, but I find it hard to buy that she is now going full tilt with trying to scorch Team Batwoman for under-appreciating her, but still willing to chill out with Alice of all people at the same time.  This would all make way more sense if she was also out for Alice's blood as well, but them being BFFs instead just messes that all up.  Hell, that might make for a more interesting story to me: Poison Mary and Alice turning Gotham into a war zone trying to get at one another, with Ryan and Team Batwoman trying to put out all of the fires.

Fun return though.  Admittedly, I'm biased because I'm just happy to see Bridget Regan on my TV screen again!

I imagine that they will do some sort of ass-pull in which Marquis's rehydration causes memory loss (or does it?). 

I would have liked the PM vs. Alice fight idea better than what we're getting with one minor issue: it would be the proverbial two-hit fight (tm: The Breakfast Club): PM hitting Alice, Alice hitting the floor. PM, simply put, is too OP with both non-contact hypnosis and super-plant-growth and manipulation powers. Like either one of them would make her more than a match for quirky chick with a knife. 

[Trini]

On 1/14/2022 at 5:10 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Surprised that they already briefly removed Marquis off the board.  But now that he knows all of their identities as well, I'm not sure how thy are going to fix this outside of killing him or having him lose his memories somehow.

 

On 1/14/2022 at 5:58 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I imagine that they will do some sort of ass-pull in which Marquis's rehydration causes memory loss (or does it?). 

I'm betting on amnesia, too.

[BeautifulFlower]

Was this episode trying to sell me on Renee and Ivy's love? Well, they failed. The only they succeeded in was making Renee look stupid. How many times did they have Renee say "deep down I know that wasn't her"? Okay, she realizes Ivy will still be the same when she wakes up right? She's still gonna be an ecoterrorist hell bent on destroying Gotham. I guess ten years apart made Renee no longer care for Gotham?

[Lantern7]

Fun episode. Great to see Marquis built up over the episode, and then seemingly get taken off the board via desiccation. Maybe he comes back Maybe he'll be the first Big Bad that constantly needs to be hydrated.

Damn, Mary. It's great to see Nicole Kang rock the dark side, but Poison Mary sold out Luke . . . at minimum. It wasn't clear if she dropped Ryan's secret to Marquis. The sad part is that Luke got to play punching bag some more.

This Poison Ivy works . . . as opposed to Gotham, where she was more or less a Pokemon, evolving and growing whenever the plot demanded it. Renee's double cross took me by surprise . . . though I'll admit that I am pretty dense. Her "betrayal" of Ivy looked brutal. Batman stashing her in the cave? Wow. I'm impressed.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Damn, Mary. It's great to see Nicole Kang rock the dark side, but Poison Mary sold out Luke . . . at minimum. It wasn't clear if she dropped Ryan's secret to Marquis.

Marquis knows Ryan's Batwoman. When he brought out Luke, he says "How about we kill your two little sidekicks at the same time. hmm? A little brother-sister bonding action? Come on!" Then Poison Mary admitted telling Marquis and told Ryan that she didn't have to bother denying it.

[Lantern7]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Marquis knows Ryan's Batwoman. When he brought out Luke, he says "How about we kill your two little sidekicks at the same time. hmm? A little brother-sister bonding action? Come on!" Then Poison Mary admitted telling Marquis and told Ryan that she didn't have to bother denying it.

Right. Sorry about that. All I remember was Marquis fucking with Luke yet again, and that’s already getting old.

I got faith in Nicole Kang and Poison Mary. I’m hoping her meeting with Ivy is more than mere fan service.

[Josh371982]

If I was Ryan/Sophie/Luke. Whenever Mary gets cured I'd tell her to fuck off. Seriously Alice was the worst to her and now she's suddenly her BFF? And she sells them out and almost gets Luke killed and acts like they are worse for "underapprecating" her? Fuck that shit. 

[CletusMusashi]

On 1/15/2022 at 8:34 PM, Trini said:

 

I'm betting on amnesia, too.

That could actually be a great way to cycle through more villains.

Please, starting next week, let him get bonked on the head and suddenly think he's King Tut.

[Trini]

A couple re-watch thoughts:

I'm not invested in the Renee/Pam relationship; but kudos to Renee for her plan to get back her girlfriend luckily working!

Even with this 'evil'* version of Mary, it still doesn't make sense for her to so chummy with Alice. But the writers really want a sisterly relationship shown. I get Alice's motivations: she has no other allies, and Mary is useful. However Mary doesn't need Alice to act out in classic youngest sibling behavior. I don't get me started with her being upset that - because of a situation she herself created - she didn't get turned into a raisin because Luke was about to get killed.

*(but not really, because they don't want to make her an actual villain)

I know they want Ryan to have some sympathy for the brother that she's known for a few weeks, but he murdered a dude in the previous episode. They keep saying it's not his fault because he's mentally ill, but they've got to draw a line somewhere.

Also, all Sophie did was handcuff Alice when she met with her?? She they finally knew her location, where was the SWAT team?? And how did Alice know that Sophie slept with Renee? She was gone with Mary when all that went down.

Despite my complaints, I did like everything with the deck of cards -themed masquerade: The Bat Team banter, the costumes, seeing the Bat Team dressed up; the Wayne office brawl - I love seeing stuntwomen get work! Also seeing Marquis being more publicly demented.

Speaking of Marquis -- so... who's in charge of W.E. now that he's a prune? (I'm guessing that bleached skin will be a side effect of the serum.)

I also liked Poison Ivy's costume, and that it wasn't head to toe green. (Apparently it's based on a look from a video game.)

I hope that Luke gets to directly take down Marquis after getting beat by him twice now.