S01.E04: Harlem's Renaissance Man

[AnimeMania]

WALKING ON SUNSHINE - Finally there is some good news for a few of the 4400. Andre (TL Thompson) looks to study some of his new friends but mistakes from his past begin to affect him in present day. Rev (Derrick A. King) finds some information about his son. Also starring, Brittany Adebumola, Joseph David-Jones, Ireon Roach, Jaye Ladymore, Khailah Johnson, Cory Jeacoma, AMARR and Autumn Best. The episode was directed by Tessa Blake and written by Jett Garrison. 
Original Airdate: 11/15/2021     (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET)   CW

[Chicago Redshirt]

So a little progress in worldbuilding and a few clarifications from previous episodes.

We have it confirmed that there are other facilities where the 4400 are being held besides just the hotel. Which is good because it stretches disbelief that there would be a hotel big enough to  hold 4400 people comfortably, and it's an explanation why we haven't seemingly seen more than a few dozen or had things be jam-packed.

We have it confirmed that it's only been two weeks since Green Light.

The show quickly paid off Doc being transgender and having a thing for Shanice. But surprisingly (at least to me), she's into him too and they kiss. Seems to be moving awful fast. As far as she's concerned, she is two weeks away from having been in love with Logan. Even if she knows intellectually that Logan has moved on and there's no chance for them to reconcile in the short term, it seems like a stretch that she'd already be getting romantic and physical with someone in general. And then it is probably an additional big leap for a typical early 2000s woman to be essentially unphased by Doc being transgender. Maybe that means that Shanice isn't a typical early 2000s woman. But I think they could have done with building up a romance more gradually. I'm not really sure what either sees in the other. 

Earlier, I thought the Doc actor was one of the show's weak links acting-wise. But now, I think it might be a deliberate thing that Doc seems somewhat forced, awkward and the like, as a reflection of the Doc character trying to be himself in a world that has treated him as less than because he's a black transgender person from the 20s. 

It's interesting to me that really, nothing happened in this episode (similar, I guess to other episodes). The leaked footage led to a witch hunt that sidelined Soraya, a PR stunt having four of the 4400 get a supervised release that allows Rev to find out his son is gay and disownable, LaDonna to sneak out a book on COBOL programming for her and an old medical book for Doc, Shanice and Claudette to drink Moscow Mules and spill that they have powers only to nearly get caught by Keisha, Jharell's ex-girlfriend (?) spills that she is sympathetic to the 4400 and believes that others in the government know more than they are saying, and Doc is trying to test out people's powers. We found out that Mildred's left hand has a birth defect, which I am wondering if they didn't show us previously or if I simply didn't notice.

Some miscellaneous thoughts:

Soraya's the "techspert" -- it seems obvious that if she was the one who leaked the footage she would have done so without obvious bread crumbs leading to her, even if she had some sort of motive to be behind the leak. Also, it seems like since she was hired to beef up security at the facility, it seems like she should have been the one to find that she had been implicated. Also from a selfish and shallow perspective, she's a cutie, and of the non-4400, she is the most fun to watch (which is a low, low bar). 

The PR stunt seems really stupid to me. How does "Hey, we're letting four of the 4400 do whatever they want (within reason) for a day" address the PR issue by it being shown that one guard beat a 4400 for no reason and the other problems inside?

The 4400 on release were promised to go dancing, and we didn't get to see it. That's a shame. I like Claudette doing musical stuff. 

I think the moment where Claudette and Shanice found out that there was a Black president could have been played a lot stronger.

It wasn't quite clear to me what Doc did that made Mildred lose control. Was she perhaps a victim of molestation or something?

The show seems to be trying to resurrect the "Lost" formula of focusing on one character an episode to flesh out back story, and have weird stuff happen in the present. But of course part of the reason that worked was that Lost was better at every phase of the game. 

 

[hifihifi]

I am confused. Is Dr. Andre a woman who is a man and thus lacks the necessities to have heterosexual intercourse with a woman? I also don't understand this in real life either. Basically if I'm understanding it right, if a Heterosexual woman has sex with a transgender man then she is actually having lesbian sex, correct? So Chanise is Bi? Also that was the most unpassionate kiss I've ever seen.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, hifihifi said:

I am confused. Is Dr. Andre a woman who is a man and thus lacks the necessities to have heterosexual intercourse with a woman? I also don't understand this in real life either. Basically if I'm understanding it right, if a Heterosexual woman has sex with a transgender man then she is actually having lesbian sex, correct? So Chanise is Bi? Also that was the most unpassionate kiss I've ever seen.

Dr.. Andre was born biologically a woman but lives as and identifies as a man. Some transgender people have reconstructive surgery and/or take hormones/other medication to facilitate transitioning to their proper gender. Noah referred to needing medicationl as a transgender person, and so he is presumably taking hormones or similar. As someone from the 1920s, Doc did not have such options available prior to being greenlit. Maybe now that he knows about them, he will seek something like that out.

Doc doesn't have a penis. But I don't think it makes sense to say he "lacks the necessities to have heterosexual intercourse with a woman," as the definitions of a lot of words in that phrase could be debated. One could say by definition someone who is transgender could not have "heterosexual" intercourse, or that a penis is not necessary for "intercourse."

Sometimes labels like "bi" or "lesbian sex" don't exactly fit. Shanice may have been attracted equally to women and men all along, or she may only be attracted to Doc, or she might have only been attracted to Doc because he presents as a man but would have no attraction to women. 

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

So a little progress in worldbuilding and a few clarifications from previous episodes.

We have it confirmed that there are other facilities where the 4400 are being held besides just the hotel. Which is good because it stretches disbelief that there would be a hotel big enough to  hold 4400 people comfortably, and it's an explanation why we haven't seemingly seen more than a few dozen or had things be jam-packed.

We have it confirmed that it's only been two weeks since Green Light.

The show quickly paid off Doc being transgender and having a thing for Shanice. But surprisingly (at least to me), she's into him too and they kiss. Seems to be moving awful fast. As far as she's concerned, she is two weeks away from having been in love with Logan. Even if she knows intellectually that Logan has moved on and there's no chance for them to reconcile in the short term, it seems like a stretch that she'd already be getting romantic and physical with someone in general. And then it is probably an additional big leap for a typical early 2000s woman to be essentially unphased by Doc being transgender. Maybe that means that Shanice isn't a typical early 2000s woman. But I think they could have done with building up a romance more gradually. I'm not really sure what either sees in the other. 

Earlier, I thought the Doc actor was one of the show's weak links acting-wise. But now, I think it might be a deliberate thing that Doc seems somewhat forced, awkward and the like, as a reflection of the Doc character trying to be himself in a world that has treated him as less than because he's a black transgender person from the 20s. 

It's interesting to me that really, nothing happened in this episode (similar, I guess to other episodes). The leaked footage led to a witch hunt that sidelined Soraya, a PR stunt having four of the 4400 get a supervised release that allows Rev to find out his son is gay and disownable, LaDonna to sneak out a book on COBOL programming for her and an old medical book for Doc, Shanice and Claudette to drink Moscow Mules and spill that they have powers only to nearly get caught by Keisha, Jharell's ex-girlfriend (?) spills that she is sympathetic to the 4400 and believes that others in the government know more than they are saying, and Doc is trying to test out people's powers. We found out that Mildred's left hand has a birth defect, which I am wondering if they didn't show us previously or if I simply didn't notice.

Some miscellaneous thoughts:

Soraya's the "techspert" -- it seems obvious that if she was the one who leaked the footage she would have done so without obvious bread crumbs leading to her, even if she had some sort of motive to be behind the leak. Also, it seems like since she was hired to beef up security at the facility, it seems like she should have been the one to find that she had been implicated. Also from a selfish and shallow perspective, she's a cutie, and of the non-4400, she is the most fun to watch (which is a low, low bar). 

The PR stunt seems really stupid to me. How does "Hey, we're letting four of the 4400 do whatever they want (within reason) for a day" address the PR issue by it being shown that one guard beat a 4400 for no reason and the other problems inside?

The 4400 on release were promised to go dancing, and we didn't get to see it. That's a shame. I like Claudette doing musical stuff. 

I think the moment where Claudette and Shanice found out that there was a Black president could have been played a lot stronger.

It wasn't quite clear to me what Doc did that made Mildred lose control. Was she perhaps a victim of molestation or something?

The show seems to be trying to resurrect the "Lost" formula of focusing on one character an episode to flesh out back story, and have weird stuff happen in the present. But of course part of the reason that worked was that Lost was better at every phase of the game. 

 

Yes, yes, and yes to all of the above.
When they finally gave us the throwaway line about there being other facilities, I couldn't help wondering if it was in response to social media comments about the show (not that there's a lot of that).
But looking at what Wikipedia has about the shooting schedule (wikipedia.org/wiki/4400_(TV_series)#Filming), it's more likely that it was just a self-correction.

 

Kausar Mohammed as Soraya (the techspert, ™@Chicago Redshirt) seems wasted here, but she seems to have not really been "discovered" yet, so maybe someone will notice her here and find her a suitable project in which to shine as the lead.

Edited November 16, 2021 by shapeshifter

[Zonk]

Was the doctor being trans also supposed to be a revelation for us? Is that why they draged that scene out so much? Because I clocked him two episodes ago.

But he is only ever so slightly clockable and I don't see how he could have achieved these results before injectable testosterone. Which would have been 1939 and I gether he got sucked-off (again, shoutouts to Ghosts) in the 1920s. Also he seemed surprised when other trans guy told him about it in a previous episode. I don't know, I think there should be a bit more realism with a sensitive subject like this, but maybe I'm expecting too much.

But curing all manner respiratory diseases? Yeah, I don't buy that. We don't have cures for those now. See covid. More likely that his girlfriend just got better after a while. Or are we to believe he really cured her? If so, not sure why the writers wouldn't have chosen something more believable.

The good reverend disowning his son after he learns he's gay, what a class act. Probably a good thing he wasn't around to bully his son while he was growing up.

 

They stated again, and this time more clearly, that there are other facilities housing the rest of the 4400. So at least we can put that discussion to rest.

[Zonk]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The PR stunt seems really stupid to me. How does "Hey, we're letting four of the 4400 do whatever they want (within reason) for a day" address the PR issue by it being shown that one guard beat a 4400 for no reason and the other problems inside?

At the beginning everybody was surprised why they chose the four troublemakers. Well, they explained at the end. They hoped these 4 would do something stupid and get in trouble during their trip and thus they could explain why the 4400 needed to be detained. So it was never about good PR, it was about bad PR and for that the stunt makes at least a little sense.

Although not sure why LaDonna was chosen, because she was their perfect little mouthpiece last episode and they have no idea that she leaked the video.

2 hours ago, hifihifi said:

I am confused. Is Dr. Andre a woman who is a man and thus lacks the necessities to have heterosexual intercourse with a woman? I also don't understand this in real life either. Basically if I'm understanding it right, if a Heterosexual woman has sex with a transgender man then she is actually having lesbian sex, correct? So Chanise is Bi? Also that was the most unpassionate kiss I've ever seen.

A penis doesn't make you a man. Otherwise injured vets wouldn't be men anymore.

Also look at some trans men who have been on T for a while. Do you think it's possible to have lesbian sex with Buck Angel?

49 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

When they finally gave us the throwaway line about there being other facilities, I couldn't help wondering if it was in response to social media comments about the show (not that there's a lot of that).
But looking at what Wikipedia has about the shooting schedule (wikipedia.org/wiki/4400_(TV_series)#Filming), it's more likely that it was just a self-correction.

They did mention other facilities before, but in blink and you miss it throwawy lines.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Zonk

[UnoAgain]

Shouldn't we be worried that Gustavo is free and running around now? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, Zonk said:

Was the doctor being trans also supposed to be a revelation for us? Is that why they draged that scene out so much? Because I clocked him two episodes ago.

But he is only ever so slightly clockable and I don't see how he could have achieved these results before injectable testosterone. Which would have been 1939 and I gether he got sucked-off (again, shoutouts to Ghosts) in the 1920s. Also he seemed surprised when other trans guy told him about it in a previous episode. I don't know, I think there should be a bit more realism with a sensitive subject like this, but maybe I'm expecting too much.

But curing all manner respiratory diseases? Yeah, I don't buy that. We don't have cures for those now. See covid. More likely that his girlfriend just got better after a while. Or are we to believe he really cured her? If so, not sure why the writers wouldn't have chosen something more believable.

The good reverend disowning his son after he learns he's gay, what a class act. Probably a good thing he wasn't around to bully his son while he was growing up.

I'd assume that some people are without hormones or other treatment male-presenting though intersex or biologically female, and that that has been the case basically forever. 

It seems like Doc is claiming to have "cured" whooping cough. which from shallow Googling still hasn't been cured. I took it as an overly optimistic assessment that a cure for whooping cough could unlock the door to cure all other respiratory diseases based on the same principles. I couldn't read the small print from the journal: did the doctor give Doc credit for the cure?

It sounds like the son was bullied plenty in Rev's absence. I didn't read all what was on the website, but it sounds like he was made to go to conversion therapy. 

11 hours ago, UnoAgain said:

Shouldn't we be worried that Gustavo is free and running around now? 

Well it depends. Is Doc just hallucinating Gustavo? Was Gustavo green-lit as well somehow for some reason? If so, where has he been these last two weeks, and how did he get from (presumably) Belle Isle to this hotel? Is Gustavo being there some sort of manifestation of Doc's superpower? 

[UnoAgain]

14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Well it depends. Is Doc just hallucinating Gustavo? Was Gustavo green-lit as well somehow for some reason? If so, where has he been these last two weeks, and how did he get from (presumably) Belle Isle to this hotel? Is Gustavo being there some sort of manifestation of Doc's superpower? 

Yeah.. Lotta questions.. Unless he is a manifestion and gus can just point Doc to advantageous situations 

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

Yeah.. Lotta questions.. Unless he is a manifestion and gus can just point Doc to advantageous situations 

Interesting hypothesis. Just as Gustavo helped Doc made the discovery of a cure, maybe quasi-Gustavo helps Doc discover useful things.

[shapeshifter]

A lot of the cast are unknowns, and with this episode, several seem to be developing as actors. This show could be a springboard for one or more to a successful career.

I appreciate the bits of humor. I wish there were more, but at least we had:

• [Dr. Andre to LaDonna] I'd simply like to assess your baseline vitals while at rest and then again when you are using your ability....
  I'll have to use my 1920s methods to record all this until I can get access to proper equipment. 
  Mm-hmm. Now try one of your illusions, and I shall take your pulse again. [gasps at an illusion of modern medical equipment] What was all of that?
   
• [LaDonna] Just some stuff from Grey's Anatomy
   
• [Dr. Andre] I never saw any of that in my copy.
  You must have read a more modern edition.

 

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

seems like Doc is claiming to have "cured" whooping cough.

I thought tuberculosis because of the time Doc was from (early 20th century), but the text Doc was looking at from his time had the word "pneumonia" in the first sentence of 3 paragraphs, so I'm guessing he came up with the first sulfa drugs ("...In the 1930s, the first antibacterial agent, sulfapyridine, was introduced...." https://www.news-medical.net/health/Pneumonia-History.aspx) but I'm also at least half expecting Doc to find out that others came up with sulfa drugs at the same time, and since Doc disappeared in the green light, it was others' discoveries that saved Cynthia.  

[nokat]

14 hours ago, Zonk said:

A penis doesn't make you a man. Otherwise injured vets wouldn't be men anymore.

Well said.  I've been attracted to the Doc since the first episode. We saw how a white man took advantage of him. He's one of my favorite characters.

[Lady Jane]

On 11/16/2021 at 4:54 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Dr.. Andre was born biologically a woman but lives as and identifies as a man. Some transgender people have reconstructive surgery and/or take hormones/other medication to facilitate transitioning to their proper gender. Noah referred to needing medicationl as a transgender person, and so he is presumably taking hormones or similar. As someone from the 1920s, Doc did not have such options available prior to being greenlit. Maybe now that he knows about them, he will seek something like that out.

Doc doesn't have a penis. But I don't think it makes sense to say he "lacks the necessities to have heterosexual intercourse with a woman," as the definitions of a lot of words in that phrase could be debated. One could say by definition someone who is transgender could not have "heterosexual" intercourse, or that a penis is not necessary for "intercourse."

Sometimes labels like "bi" or "lesbian sex" don't exactly fit. Shanice may have been attracted equally to women and men all along, or she may only be attracted to Doc, or she might have only been attracted to Doc because he presents as a man but would have no attraction to women. 

I'm not the poster you were responding to, but thank you thank you thank you for this awesome response. You responded so kindly, factually, and snark-free, which I think is the right tone right now given the current cultural awakening on this topic. I hope mine s an OK kind of board-on-board reply :) 

Have we talked about the racial representation of the show? I wonder if that is storyline driven. Given the different eras our gang came from it could be many factors, including story-driven, genuine race+blind casting, or intentional centering on BIPOC? Whatever the reasons, what a joy to center on BIPOC lives in different eras! I hope they actually present those stories well. Awesome to see! 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Lady Jane said:

I'm not the poster you were responding to, but thank you thank you thank you for this awesome response. You responded so kindly, factually, and snark-free, which I think is the right tone right now given the current cultural awakening on this topic. I hope mine s an OK kind of board-on-board reply :) 

Have we talked about the racial representation of the show? I wonder if that is storyline driven. Given the different eras our gang came from it could be many factors, including story-driven, genuine race+blind casting, or intentional centering on BIPOC? Whatever the reasons, what a joy to center on BIPOC lives in different eras! I hope they actually present those stories well. Awesome to see! 

Thank you for your kind words.

The showrunners intentionally centered the show around BIPOC and the press release about the show indicates the 4400 are people who have been marginalized. One good thing about the CW: they seem pretty reluctant to cancel shows, so it is likely that the showrunners will have enough time to unveil the mystery as to why the particular 4400 were chosen and why they seem to be overwhelmingly African-American. (as opposed to other races, or even people of African descent from outside the U.S.).

One of the things I find interesting is that the characters in the 4400 do not seem to have expressed any/many thoughts or feelings about how odd it is that the 4400 are so disproportionately African-American, or the ramifications of the government holding a disproportionately African-American group, etc. Not sure what to make of it. 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[shapeshifter]

49 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One of the things I find interesting is that the characters in the 4400 do not seem to have expressed any thoughts or feelings about how odd it is that the 4400 are so disproportionately African-American, or the ramifications of the government holding a disproportionately African-American group, etc. Not sure what to make of it. 

I suppose now that we were given a throwaway line about there being "other facilities" housing the other 4400s, it opens up the possibility of there being a rooming house of 4400s that house mostly indigenous Americans, or a repurposed office building homing mostly Asian Americans -- or maybe a more specific group, like, say, Chinese Americans.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I suppose now that we were given a throwaway line about there being "other facilities" housing the other 4400s, it opens up the possibility of there being a rooming house of 4400s that house mostly indigenous Americans, or a repurposed office building homing mostly Asian Americans -- or maybe a more specific group, like, say, Chinese Americans.

True, but I think from what little we were shown of the arrival at Belle Isle, most people were A-A, and of course, hopefully the American government would not resort to intentionally segregating internees by race. 

[AnimeMania]

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

True, but I think from what little we were shown of the arrival at Belle Isle, most people were A-A, and of course, hopefully the American government would not resort to intentionally segregating internees by race. 

But that would be hilarious if they showed a bunch of "White" 4400 people staying at a luxury hotel, hanging out by the pool, in the sauna, getting massages, getting room service, etc.

[Tachi Rocinante]

I watched part on FF.  No major surprises.

The editing on this show is atrocious - when the Rev first found the web article for his son, it showed his name as "Quicy" then the next shot it became "Quincy".

Are all CW shows this cheap looking?

[mythoughtis]

I’m not sure that I see Doc as a person born as female but living as a male in the 1920s. As others have said, Doc wouldn’t have had access to the hormones etc that would change his appearance and voice.  I see Doc more as a person born as male who internally identifies as female.    Noah explained to Doc that it was now possible to live as your true self- something unavailable to Doc in the 1920s.  Now Doc knows that changing your outside to match your inside is a possibility.

Edited November 19, 2021 by mythoughtis

[Demian]

6 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Are all CW shows this cheap looking?

Yes.  And they always have been.

The pacing of this show is starting to annoy me -- maybe I've been spoiled by binge-watching other shows on other platforms, but this excessively slow drip of character and plot info is making me want to stop watching week-to-week, and just wait for the whole first season to hit Netflix.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Demian

[Simba122504]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:28 PM, Demian said:

Yes.  And they always have been.

The pacing of this show is starting to annoy me -- maybe I've been spoiled by binge-watching other shows on other platforms, but this excessively slow drip of character and plot info is making me want to stop watching week-to-week, and just wait for the whole first season to hit Netflix.

The Netflix deal expired a few years ago. New CW shows go to HBO Max after the season completes. 

[Wizardpatch]

On 11/16/2021 at 8:59 AM, Zonk said:

Was the doctor being trans also supposed to be a revelation for us? Is that why they draged that scene out so much? Because I clocked him two episodes ago.

But he is only ever so slightly clockable and I don't see how he could have achieved these results before injectable testosterone. Which would have been 1939 and I gether he got sucked-off (again, shoutouts to Ghosts) in the 1920s. Also he seemed surprised when other trans guy told him about it in a previous episode. I don't know, I think there should be a bit more realism with a sensitive subject like this, but maybe I'm expecting too much.

But curing all manner respiratory diseases? Yeah, I don't buy that. We don't have cures for those now. See covid. More likely that his girlfriend just got better after a while. Or are we to believe he really cured her? If so, not sure why the writers wouldn't have chosen something more believable.

The good reverend disowning his son after he learns he's gay, what a class act. Probably a good thing he wasn't around to bully his son while he was growing up.

 

They stated again, and this time more clearly, that there are other facilities housing the rest of the 4400. So at least we can put that discussion to rest.

It doesn't seem fair to judge a black heterosexual guy from the early 90s for being upset about a gay son who hates him that he just found out about. Maybe he would have "bullied" him, maybe he wouldn't have. We can't tell because he did not get to grow up with that son.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Wizardpatch