Perfect Xero July 27, 2017 Share July 27, 2017 The big problem is that the reality of this show often runs up against the metaphor. BAngel is a really clear metaphor. Grown ass man starts hanging around a 15 year old high school girl. Plays the nice/wounded guy. Gets her to fall for him. Then once she has sex with him he drops the nice guy act and starts treating her like crap. Willow is the starry eyed romantic friend who is trying to help but ends up enabling Buffy staying in a bad relationship by coming up with long shot ways that they can work things out. Xander is the one who thought Angel was an ass from word go and had already seen the 'slips' in Angel's nice guy act (Prophecy Girl, School Hard), so he doesn't have a problem with seeing the the relationship is toxic and that Angel is capable of manipulating Buffy's feelings for him to keep her under his thumb (pretty much any time she couldn't kill him after he lost his soul), and doesn't want to see his friend let herself get sucked back in to an abusive relationship because the other friend thinks that Angel can maybe, possibly change. Angel has to turn back into 'good' Angel at the end so that Buffy can 'kill' him because the metaphor requires that Buffy 'kill' her idea of good Angel so that she can dump him and move on with her life. 2 Link to comment
Smad July 27, 2017 Share July 27, 2017 Except Xander isn't clear headed himself. Xander's opinions are tied up in his romantic interest in Buffy. Also if Angel is an ass to him then that's Xander's own fault. Treat others how you want to be treated, simple. And if Angel is abusive to Buffy then so is Xander. The nasty words that come out of his mouth whenever Buffy fails to conform to his comic book super hero expectations are nothing to write home about either. Nevermind his fantasies about 'weak and stupid' Buffy in both S1 and S2. Neither Angel nor Xander are perfect. 2 Link to comment
Perfect Xero July 29, 2017 Share July 29, 2017 On 7/27/2017 at 4:08 PM, Smad said: Except Xander isn't clear headed himself. Xander's opinions are tied up in his romantic interest in Buffy. Also if Angel is an ass to him then that's Xander's own fault. Treat others how you want to be treated, simple. And if Angel is abusive to Buffy then so is Xander. The nasty words that come out of his mouth whenever Buffy fails to conform to his comic book super hero expectations are nothing to write home about either. Nevermind his fantasies about 'weak and stupid' Buffy in both S1 and S2. Neither Angel nor Xander are perfect. Xander having (or having had) romantic interest in Buffy doesn't mean that his read on Angel or the Buffy/Angel relationship isn't also rather accurate. Sometimes you can be right, even for the wrong reasons. Xander expresses himself in an awful way, and Buffy also likes to escalate things and throw his previous romantic interests in her in his face to try to undercut and the deflect the good points he makes. I'm not sure why you're bringing up abuse in this context, but ... uh, I disagree to an extent? Xander and Buffy have a relationship that is mutually unhealthy at times, I don't think it's to the level of being "abusive" though. Xander is a teenager. Angel is an adult. As such Angel should be held to a higher standard and holds greater responsibility for the nature of his relationships with all of them. 5 Link to comment
Jazzy24 July 31, 2017 Share July 31, 2017 On 7/28/2017 at 11:26 PM, Perfect Xero said: Xander having (or having had) romantic interest in Buffy doesn't mean that his read on Angel or the Buffy/Angel relationship isn't also rather accurate. Sometimes you can be right, even for the wrong reasons. Xander expresses himself in an awful way, and Buffy also likes to escalate things and throw his previous romantic interests in her in his face to try to undercut and the deflect the good points he makes. I'm not sure why you're bringing up abuse in this context, but ... uh, I disagree to an extent? Xander and Buffy have a relationship that is mutually unhealthy at times, I don't think it's to the level of being "abusive" though. Xander is a teenager. Angel is an adult. As such Angel should be held to a higher standard and holds greater responsibility for the nature of his relationships with all of them. Xander had no read on Angel or the Buffy/Angel relationship because he didn't know anything about it except that Angel was a vampire and him and Buffy were together. Buffy was very private about her relationship to Angel and if she talked about it to anyone it was Willow and Giles. Angel did not hang around any of the Scoobies except Giles and later Willow for anybody to get an idea about his personality. Xander knew nothing and still knows nothing about Angel to try and say anything about him or his relationship with Buffy. Xander didn't like Angel because of him being Buffy's preference and that's fine. But there was never anything Angel ever did before Innocence to have Xander do his "I told you so" speech in Passions. 2 Link to comment
Perfect Xero August 1, 2017 Share August 1, 2017 And, yet, Xander had a good read on their relationship, or more accurately, how it effected Buffy IMO. Particularly post Innocence. Angel was going to chill out at home while The Master killed Buffy, then Angel mocked Xander for wanting him to help Buffy. Angel also tried to feed Xander to Spike in School Hard, and then mocked him when Xander, rightly, wondered what Angel's actual plan in the situation had been (because pretending to feed Xander to Spike made absolutely no tactical sense) and allowed Xander to believe (perhaps correctly), that Angel had simply intended to let Spike kill Xander. So, yeah, Xander didn't like Angel from day one, but he also got to see the previews of Angel's nastier side before Innocence as well. 2 Link to comment
formerlyfreedom August 2, 2017 Share August 2, 2017 The rule at Previously.TV is to be civil to your fellow posters. This means that posters are allowed to have opinions that may differ from yours, and THAT IS OKAY. Posts have been removed, and warnings may be issued. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback June 25, 2018 Share June 25, 2018 (edited) On 04/08/2014 at 8:22 PM, Mya Stone said: Giles being tortured is still hard to take. :( Dru getting into character? Still hilarious. I think that's part of what makes Buffy great , the juxtaposition of the horrific, the funny and the little bit sexy, (Dru has a thing for 'daddy' but probably no more than the rest of the Buffygirls). On 05/08/2014 at 2:17 AM, Dianthus said: Let me just say here, that I love the handful of scenes we get between Spike and Joyce as the series progresses. The disconnect between them will be bridged, until they're bonding over the (truly awful) soap opera Passions in s5's Checkpoint. Don't forget Whistler's communication with Buffy? Also remember Spoiler Spike and Joyce in Lover's Walk? On 05/08/2014 at 4:19 AM, KittenPokerCheater said: I loved this episode, it made me laugh (Spike and Joyce) and cry (Joyce/Buffy, Buffy/Angel, Giles/Jenny/Dru) and that damn Sarah McLaughlin song, which I may or may not have memorized. I will never forget Spike talking about humans being little happy meals with feet. Hee. And I was 100% sold (souled?) on James Marsters with his delivery of "My God he's going to kill her." And then his shrug. They never really addressed what I think was Xander's dickish behavior when he didn't tell Buffy what Willow was trying to do. That still rankles with me. I think the only time that will be addressed in the last gasp of the Buffyverse, whatever form that may take. But is it any different from Spoiler Giles deceiving Buffy over the Acathla spell? Wes telling the Pylea rebels what they need to hear? Or Buffy having Xander kidnap Dawn in s7? On 05/08/2014 at 5:13 AM, Jazzy24 said: - Xander and his Willow says "kick his ass" and never getting the proper backlash because of the lie even years later when Buffy brought it up in "Selfless" he didn't blink an eye over it or Willow didn't get to ram him for that. There was a lot going on in that scene, I don't think anyone appreciated the significance of what was said. Edited June 25, 2018 by Joe Hellandback Spoilers Link to comment
Joe Hellandback June 25, 2018 Share June 25, 2018 On 05/08/2014 at 5:29 PM, Spartan Girl said: I'll never understand why Buffy didn't confront him about that after she figured out what really happened, especially in the light of how nasty he was to her in "Dead Man's Party." And it continues to piss me off how Xander gave her the "you don't know how I feel" speech about Anya in "Selfless" when Buffy KNEW PERFECTLY WELL how he felt. And yet Xander continues to dismiss the situations as "different." Now ask me again why I don't like Xander! I think you're assuming she figured it out, whilst that is possible I never got that impression. Spoiler As for Anya well she wasn't trying to end the world and could also undo her magic? On 26/08/2014 at 1:12 PM, ladyrott said: I always thought the whole "Willow said to kick his ass" statement was extremely spontaneous on Xander's part. He didn't set out to specifically lie to Buffy (IMO). I always felt like he was about to tell her the real message (because why bring up that Willow had a message in the first place if he didn't intend to pass it on) and it occurred to him right before he said it that Buffy might make a bad choice if she had the knowledge that Willow was trying the spell again so he lied. I don't think it was thought out, I don't think he specifically didn't tell her because he wanted her to kill Angel (although he certainly did want that). I think he made a split second decision that the fight would go better if Buffy didn't know and he did And that's exactly how I read it, there was no master plan, he was going to tell her the truth then had second thoughts. On 26/08/2014 at 7:41 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said: As a final (for now) note, it remains a peeve of mine that, when Becoming is the topic of conversation, its usually not about the overwhelmingly positive thing that Buffy did when she saved the world from being destroyed, but how personally devastating it was for her because she had to "kill" Angel. Screw the however many billions of lives that were saved, that she prevented hell from coming to Earth, what's really important is that that she lost Angel. And she continues to make it all about herself when she runs away from home instead of dealing with things. The way Xander was supposed to deal with things instead of being "spiteful and petty". It's sort of Cabin in the Woods in reverse? Although I always thought humanity would actually defeat the Hellogods easily. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback June 25, 2018 Share June 25, 2018 On 27/08/2014 at 1:54 AM, Cobalt Stargazer said: A few things: If you want to point out that Xander hated Angel, fine. I actually have no problem with that. I do, however, feel that its necessary to point out that Xander was sixteen years old when Captain Forehead started lurking around Buffy like a giant pedo. And then it turned out that he was actually a hundred and fifty year old corpse with a long trail of dead bodies behind him. I know, blah blah true love cakes, its still bizarre. So let's pretend that the whole pedo/serial killer vibe wasn't a thing. Beyond that, Angel was physically at least in his mid-twenties, if not his early thirties. I don;t think it was ever stated how old Liam was when he was turned, but I could be mistaken. So here's this twenty-five to thirty year old man being jealous of a high school boy because he gets to see Buffy in the daylight. And Xander[/ii] is the one with the problem? Even if it wasn't for the 'Ew' factor, which IMO is pretty high, why is it permissible for Angel to behave like such an infant and have it be considered romantic when Xander doing what most sixteen year old boys do when the girl they like likes someone else means he's being spiteful? And it doesn't really answer my previous question about why she didn't kill Angelus at the factory to say that she was ready to kill him even if she had known the spell was being tried again. I wanted to know why she hadn't done it already if she was so focused and prepared, not whether she would have done it when she actually did. As a related issue, and this is mean, I guess, but given what Buffy turned into by the end of the series I think it would have been beneficial if she had been a little less convinced that the world revolved around her pain and devastation. Season seven alone would have probably sucked exponentially less if she hadn't been wearing her own ass like a hat more often than not. And I'm with Bitterswete, its a weird concept to say that if it had been anyone else other than Xander telling 'The Lie', it would have been okay. Isn't the dishonesty the important thing, or is it just the bearer of it that's the problem? You know the age difference never made any difference to me until we learned that Joss has an affair with one of the Buffy girls, then you look at the show differently, it's essentially an ephebophile's wet dream, handsome older man Giles surrounded by adoring teenage girls who quite literally call him daddy. On 30/01/2017 at 6:22 PM, Smad said: I hate that habit of Xander's. My main issue about the lie has always been that he put words into Willow's mouth she never even said. And I always think that maybe Buffy wouldn't have left town if she knew there was at least still someone there despite everything that happened. Xander did the same thing in Season 3's Revelations. He was pissed at Buffy so he wanted to get back at her by getting rid of Angel and he used Faith, who didn't know all the facts because she wasn't there the year before, as his weapon. This (coupled with Buffy's reluctance to talk about Angel in general with Faith, the group excluding her from meetings) was the beginning of the mistrust, her distance from the group and eventual down slide of Faith's. And neither Xander himself nor the show ever holds him responsible. I don't think you can blame Xander for either Buffy or Faith slide to the dark side, I think that was inherent in the Slayer's nature. On 31/01/2017 at 6:50 PM, inkworks said: What if Willow had lost her soul instead of Angel. Would Xander be as quick to want her dead? No because Willow is his soul mate and he would not be able to be objective, just as Buffy can't be objective about Angel. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback June 25, 2018 Share June 25, 2018 On 27/07/2017 at 6:57 PM, Perfect Xero said: Xander is the one who thought Angel was an ass from word go and had already seen the 'slips' in Angel's nice guy act (Prophecy Girl, School Hard), so he doesn't have a problem with seeing the the relationship is toxic and that Angel is capable of manipulating Buffy's feelings for him to keep her under his thumb (pretty much any time she couldn't kill him after he lost his soul), and doesn't want to see his friend let herself get sucked back in to an abusive relationship because the other friend thinks that Angel can maybe, possibly change.. Xander as 'the one who sees'? Becoming pt2 The Good; All of it, every scene between Spike and Buffy, Giles and Angelus and Spike and Joyce. Great scenes with all the Scoobies and the ending just too heartwrenching for words, especially with Sarah MacClachlan's beautiful music, all classic. The Bad; Are you kidding? It's all too wonderful! Best line; Joyce; "Have you tried NOT being a Slayer?" (once again being a Slayer compared to being gay) Character death; Angel Spoiler or so we think? Tied up; Giles and tortured Knocked out; Dru which is rather strange, Spike seems able to knock her out with a chokehold despite the fact that she doesn't breathe and has no circulation. Questions and observations; Joyce thinks Buffy is the Slayer because she didn't have a strong male role-model. Spoiler Of course she'll later find out that Buffy is the Slayer because she did, she had Giles. Xander's remarks at her bedside set the basis for their relationship in season 3. . The first (and only unless you can correct me) appearance of Willow's 'resolve face'. Willow successfully casts her first spell. Why is Buffy still wanted when Xander and Cordy can back up her story? Spike's reluctance to end the world seems odd considering he was happy to do it earlier A couple of points that escaped me about Becoming pt2, firstly Dru seems to be deeply enamoured of Giles but then she always did have a thing for 'daddy'. Secondly as Jenny Dru says to Giles that they'll get to do all the things they never had a chance to implying that Giles and Jenny never did have sex 10/10 and I need a hug Link to comment
Halting Hex June 25, 2018 Share June 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: that's exactly how I read it, there was no master plan, [Xander] was going to tell [Buffy] the truth then had second thoughts. I'm with you (and the OP); he started to play messenger then decided he'd better shut his mouth. A lie of omission more than anything. No big deal, but just like Buffy blaming Jenny for Angel losing his soul, the over-invested Bangel fans needed a scapegoat here. 2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: The Good; All of it, every scene between Spike and Buffy, Giles and Angelus and Spike and Joyce. Spike and Joyce always bored me. Maybe it's because I've never had the "awkward meeting with girlfriend's parent" moment that they're trying to parody here, but "awkward sitting" translates to "boring sitting" from where I'm sitting. 2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: The Bad; Are you kidding? As another Alyson Hannigan-starring series will one day put it: "Haaaaaave you met Whistler?" A horribly clunky exposition machine, and Buffy has to give clunky exposition about him, which she's apparently pulling straight out of her ass, given that she's got no reason to make that guess. (How many non-evil demons has Buffy met before this, exactly? Oh, yeah, zero. Sheesh.) And he never leaves Giles's apartment, since apparently they only had Max Perlich for one day's shooting and so couldn't go to the trouble of having him at the hospital or on location outside the mansion or anywhere it might make more sense than hanging out in the apartment of somebody he's never met, making nun "jokes", instead of telling Buffy what he's supposedly there to say. I mean when Buffy flat-out tells you that you're being an overly-cryptic asshole, you know we're dealing with a useless time-waster of a character here. I would so gladly flush this idiot and see Willow get Cordy to agree to help with the spell by promising to let Cordelia give her a makeover than suffer through these bloated, flaccid talkfests. It's one thing when "Cryptic Guy" is sexy David Boreanaz, but my patience is notably less when it's…Max Perlich. (Also, I've never liked Max Perlich, anyhow.) 2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: Knocked out; Dru which is rather strange, Spike seems able to knock her out with a chokehold despite the fact that she doesn't breathe and has no circulation. Best fanwank I've seen is that he broke her neck. It fits his actions, he probably learned the technique from Angel, it would disable her, and she'd heal. I mean, not what they intended (the script calls it "a chokehold"), but it works for me. 2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: Why is Buffy still wanted when Xander and Cordy can back up her story? Cordy wasn't present when the police did their examination (she was too busy running "across three counties") and Xander's just a friend (from a not terribly reputable family, it seems), why should the cops just take his word? Especially with the whole "Buffy beat up a cop and ran from another" bit from the teaser. Responsible Adult Giles will eventually settle this between seasons, but he's tied up (literally!) right now. 2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: Spike's reluctance to end the world seems odd considering he was happy to do it earlier Well, it's always good to remember that Spike is usually full of shit. This is no different. However, here we have the specific comparison being drawn with Xander's speech to Coma!Willow: they both start out by mentioning irrelevant details they don't really care about (Spike doesn't give a piss about Manchester United*, Xander could really not care about Willow helping him pass trig) and only at the end do they open up and open their hearts. ("I want Dru back." "I love you, [Willow]") *-What the hell is Spike on about Man U, anyway? He's from London. Seems more like an Arsenal man, IMO. Maybe Spurs? But, for Spike and Xander, speeches aside, it's all about a girl. Because "love makes you do the wacky". And then they both get their hearts broken, because Dru has NO interest in helping Spike against Angel (there was a shit-ton of fic that just assumed that Spike and Dru would eventually turn on "Angelus", but in reality, the moment Spike hits Leatherpants with that andiron, Dru's on him like a cat on a rat) and meanwhile Willow thinks it's Oz talking to her and calls for him and (with TV cliché convenience) Oz just happens to walk in Right That Second. You couldn't have stopped to grab something from the snack machine, Wolf Boy? Sigh. Spoiler If nothing else, maybe if Xander had his emotional cards on the table here, we don't get the "affair" next year…and Cordelia doesn't get the rebar through her gut. (And, about 75 minutes after Xander finally admits he's in love with his "best friend", the Dawson's Creek season finale, "Passages", sees Dawson finally admitting to himself that he really does love Joey. The difference being that "Passages' doesn't conclude with a sword fight. More's the pity.) 3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: Dru seems to be deeply enamoured of Giles As someone far wittier than I once wrote, "as somebody who's had all three, Dru clearly prefers Giles [over Angel and Spike]". Again, who are we to say she's crazy? :) 3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: Jenny/Dru says to Giles that they'll get to do all the things they never had a chance to implying that Giles and Jenny never did have sex Nah, there's over a month between Ted and Innocence; plenty of time for Jenny to make him "squirm". More likely "Jenny' is referring to their dreams of having a life together; remember, Giles was so scarred by his experiences with Eyghon that he threw himself into being a Watcher for over twenty years, at the expense of his personal life. Spoiler Later silly retcons (he's got girls who will fly 6000 miles to see him! He lets them call him "Ripper" instead of keeping it a secret! Because he figures that Olivia is too stupid to do the math and see through the "Pink Floyd" lie [Giles was NINE when Floyd were formed], so she has no idea what he's talking about, anyway), aside. "I've wandered about in these old books for so long I've forgotten what the real world is like. It's time I found out." And then Buffy makes him want to live again, and Jenny makes him want to be a man again. Not just one shag, but a relationship: maybe marriage, maybe a family. ("He's only forty-one, you know, he still has his virility," to paraphrase 1776) One of the hidden beauties of Passion is the Buffy/Jenny scene, where Buffy is willing to allow for Giles/Jenny to reconcile because "I don't want him to be lonely. I don't want anyone to." I mean, it's not as if Buffy knows that Jenny will be dead before the commercial break. It would be easy for her to imagine years and years of trying hard to be happy for Giles in his beautiful life with Jenny while Buffy still can't help but carry an irrational grudge against her over Angel. But Angel took all that away from Giles, all those hopes, all those dreams. That's what "Jenny" is talking about here, IMO. 3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: 10/10 and I need a hug Yeah, it may not be good enough to pass Innocence, Passion, Prophecy Girl, or BB&B (because, as noted, Spike/Joyce is boring and Whistler is garbage and I'm sick of fighting redemptionistas about the "save the world" speech, never mind Bangels still kvetching about the eternal distraction that is The Lie), but any episode that can cause such feelings about W/X and Giles/Jenny and Buffy's heartbreak (I mean, I'm glad of Angel's fate, but I understand how it affects Buffy) can't be anything less than near-great. #5 out of 144, which beats a sword to the gut anytime. "Jenny? I thought I'd lost you…" Sniff! Link to comment
Smad June 26, 2018 Share June 26, 2018 21 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: I don't think you can blame Xander for either Buffy or Faith slide to the dark side, I think that was inherent in the Slayer's nature. Who said I blame Xander? I said that Xander causes conflicts by dragging third parties into the mix who don't know they are being used that way. And you and me already agreed to disagree on the slayer darkness. Spoiler Faith didn't go dark side due to her slayer-ness, anyone who thinks that IMO clearly didn't pay attention to BtVS S3 or AtS S1. Whether Buffy went darkside due to slayer demon, that depends on where you stand in regards to story vs character. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback June 26, 2018 Share June 26, 2018 8 hours ago, Smad said: Who said I blame Xander? I said that Xander causes conflicts by dragging third parties into the mix who don't know they are being used that way. Spoiler And you and me already agreed to disagree on the slayer darkness. Faith didn't go dark side due to her slayer-ness, anyone who thinks that IMO clearly didn't pay attention to BtVS S3 or AtS S1. Whether Buffy went darkside due to slayer demon, that depends on where you stand in regards to story vs character. Spoiler I'm not sure he 'drags' them in so much as they gravitate to him as the 'one who sees'. We'll see about the Slayer darkness as we go. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback June 26, 2018 Share June 26, 2018 10 hours ago, Halting Hex said: I'm with you (and the OP); he started to play messenger then decided he'd better shut his mouth. A lie of omission more than anything. No big deal, but just like Buffy blaming Jenny for Angel losing his soul, the over-invested Bangel fans needed a scapegoat here. Spike and Joyce always bored me. Maybe it's because I've never had the "awkward meeting with girlfriend's parent" moment that they're trying to parody here, but "awkward sitting" translates to "boring sitting" from where I'm sitting. As another Alyson Hannigan-starring series will one day put it: "Haaaaaave you met Whistler?" A horribly clunky exposition machine, and Buffy has to give clunky exposition about him, which she's apparently pulling straight out of her ass, given that she's got no reason to make that guess. (How many non-evil demons has Buffy met before this, exactly? Oh, yeah, zero. Sheesh.) And he never leaves Giles's apartment, since apparently they only had Max Perlich for one day's shooting and so couldn't go to the trouble of having him at the hospital or on location outside the mansion or anywhere it might make more sense than hanging out in the apartment of somebody he's never met, making nun "jokes", instead of telling Buffy what he's supposedly there to say. I mean when Buffy flat-out tells you that you're being an overly-cryptic asshole, you know we're dealing with a useless time-waster of a character here. I would so gladly flush this idiot and see Willow get Cordy to agree to help with the spell by promising to let Cordelia give her a makeover than suffer through these bloated, flaccid talkfests. It's one thing when "Cryptic Guy" is sexy David Boreanaz, but my patience is notably less when it's…Max Perlich. (Also, I've never liked Max Perlich, anyhow.) Best fanwank I've seen is that he broke her neck. It fits his actions, he probably learned the technique from Angel, it would disable her, and she'd heal. I mean, not what they intended (the script calls it "a chokehold"), but it works for me. Cordy wasn't present when the police did their examination (she was too busy running "across three counties") and Xander's just a friend (from a not terribly reputable family, it seems), why should the cops just take his word? Especially with the whole "Buffy beat up a cop and ran from another" bit from the teaser. Responsible Adult Giles will eventually settle this between seasons, but he's tied up (literally!) right now. Well, it's always good to remember that Spike is usually full of shit. This is no different. However, here we have the specific comparison being drawn with Xander's speech to Coma!Willow: they both start out by mentioning irrelevant details they don't really care about (Spike doesn't give a piss about Manchester United*, Xander could really not care about Willow helping him pass trig) and only at the end do they open up and open their hearts. ("I want Dru back." "I love you, [Willow]") *-What the hell is Spike on about Man U, anyway? He's from London. Seems more like an Arsenal man, IMO. Maybe Spurs? But, for Spike and Xander, speeches aside, it's all about a girl. Because "love makes you do the wacky". And then they both get their hearts broken, because Dru has NO interest in helping Spike against Angel (there was a shit-ton of fic that just assumed that Spike and Dru would eventually turn on "Angelus", but in reality, the moment Spike hits Leatherpants with that andiron, Dru's on him like a cat on a rat) and meanwhile Willow thinks it's Oz talking to her and calls for him and (with TV cliché convenience) Oz just happens to walk in Right That Second. You couldn't have stopped to grab something from the snack machine, Wolf Boy? Sigh. Hide contents If nothing else, maybe if Xander had his emotional cards on the table here, we don't get the "affair" next year…and Cordelia doesn't get the rebar through her gut. (And, about 75 minutes after Xander finally admits he's in love with his "best friend", the Dawson's Creek season finale, "Passages", sees Dawson finally admitting to himself that he really does love Joey. The difference being that "Passages' doesn't conclude with a sword fight. More's the pity.) As someone far wittier than I once wrote, "as somebody who's had all three, Dru clearly prefers Giles [over Angel and Spike]". Again, who are we to say she's crazy? :) Nah, there's over a month between Ted and Innocence; plenty of time for Jenny to make him "squirm". More likely "Jenny' is referring to their dreams of having a life together; remember, Giles was so scarred by his experiences with Eyghon that he threw himself into being a Watcher for over twenty years, at the expense of his personal life. Hide contents Later silly retcons (he's got girls who will fly 6000 miles to see him! He lets them call him "Ripper" instead of keeping it a secret! Because he figures that Olivia is too stupid to do the math and see through the "Pink Floyd" lie [Giles was NINE when Floyd were formed], so she has no idea what he's talking about, anyway), aside. "I've wandered about in these old books for so long I've forgotten what the real world is like. It's time I found out." And then Buffy makes him want to live again, and Jenny makes him want to be a man again. Not just one shag, but a relationship: maybe marriage, maybe a family. ("He's only forty-one, you know, he still has his virility," to paraphrase 1776) One of the hidden beauties of Passion is the Buffy/Jenny scene, where Buffy is willing to allow for Giles/Jenny to reconcile because "I don't want him to be lonely. I don't want anyone to." I mean, it's not as if Buffy knows that Jenny will be dead before the commercial break. It would be easy for her to imagine years and years of trying hard to be happy for Giles in his beautiful life with Jenny while Buffy still can't help but carry an irrational grudge against her over Angel. But Angel took all that away from Giles, all those hopes, all those dreams. That's what "Jenny" is talking about here, IMO. Yeah, it may not be good enough to pass Innocence, Passion, Prophecy Girl, or BB&B (because, as noted, Spike/Joyce is boring and Whistler is garbage and I'm sick of fighting redemptionistas about the "save the world" speech, never mind Bangels still kvetching about the eternal distraction that is The Lie), but any episode that can cause such feelings about W/X and Giles/Jenny and Buffy's heartbreak (I mean, I'm glad of Angel's fate, but I understand how it affects Buffy) can't be anything less than near-great. #5 out of 144, which beats a sword to the gut anytime. "Jenny? I thought I'd lost you…" Sniff! 1. Personally my theory is the more Joyce in an ep the better it is and the Spike/Joyce scenes are some of the most understated delights of the series. 2. I like Max, especially on Homicide, also Whistler is the prototype for a much better character in Angel season 1. 3. I've heard he knew some mystical vamp knock out technique or that it was some leftover human reflex like Spike gagging when he was 'drowned' although Spoiler I doubt the latter as we see Faith's old boyfriend Spanky can't do it to Angel in s5 4. Funnily UK tv is currently repeating Buffy, Xena, Dawson's Creek and Roswell, they seem to be having a 90s revival. Link to comment
Perfect Xero June 26, 2018 Share June 26, 2018 Since Buffyverse vamps bleed normally when cut and can have sex they do seem to have something keeping their blood moving, it actually makes some sense that a blood choke could knock one out. 17 hours ago, Halting Hex said: *-What the hell is Spike on about Man U, anyway? He's from London. Seems more like an Arsenal man, IMO. Maybe Spurs? My take is that Spike is a poser/bandwagon jumper who is a fan of whichever the current best club/power house is to go along with his adopted punk persona and fake accent. 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex June 26, 2018 Share June 26, 2018 6 hours ago, Perfect Xero said: Since Buffyverse vamps bleed normally when cut and can have sex they do seem to have something keeping their blood moving, it actually makes some sense that a blood choke could knock one out. Yeah, Angel (in?)famously said "I have no breath", not "I have no circulation", and the whole reason we're in this mess is because he was able to "rise to the occasion" with Buffy, so I guess the carotid artery could work its magic on Dru just it would do on a human. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback June 27, 2018 Share June 27, 2018 16 hours ago, Perfect Xero said: Since Buffyverse vamps bleed normally when cut and can have sex they do seem to have something keeping their blood moving, it actually makes some sense that a blood choke could knock one out. My take is that Spike is a poser/bandwagon jumper who is a fan of whichever the current best club/power house is to go along with his adopted punk persona and fake accent. Yes, especially when we see Spike's pre-vampire self it's very different from the image he creates for himself, it's a British trope that if you don't really like football Man U are your team. Angel also seems to suffer from class guilt as we see in Soul Purpose. 10 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Yeah, Angel (in?)famously said "I have no breath", not "I have no circulation", and the whole reason we're in this mess is because he was able to "rise to the occasion" with Buffy, so I guess the carotid artery could work its magic on Dru just it would do on a human. Personally I just put it down to magic, without circulation they shouldn't be able to move around etc either never mind 'raising the mainsail' so to speak. I think Joss does refer to the fact on one of his commentaries? Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 10, 2018 Share September 10, 2018 Quote Giles: Well, we, uh... we went back to the mansion. I-it was empty, um... and Acathla was, was... dormant. Willow: I think the spell worked. I felt something go through me. Cordelia: Plus the Orb did that cool glow thing. X ander: Well, maybe it wasn't in time. Maybe she had to kill him before the cure could work. Oz: Well, then, she'd wanna be alone, I guess. Willow: Or maybe Angel *was* saved, and they want to be alone together. Giles: Perhaps. Maybe I miss something crucial here (and I'm sure as hell don't get the "beauty" of Bangel hype), but couldn't little Willow be, I don't know, less enthusiastic about Buffy and her brooding murderous boyfriend after the whole Angelus crisis, Jenny's and Kendra's deaths, her own injury and Giles' ordeal? I could tolerate the girl's excitement over Buffy/Angel affair (though I still don't get it), when Angel was, well, Angel (240-plus something-years old undead guy perving on the teenage girls, but without murderous intentions). But after Acathla deal and everything saying something like that (with dreamy look in her eyes) in Giles presence was somehow tactless to say the least. Then again (and I remember that subject being raised once, but I'll repeat it anyway), was the so-called Ritual of Restoration (i. e. putting Angel's soul back into the body of psychotic killer) really that necessary and was such thing fair concerning Angel himself? Was making Angel live with another set of terrible memories good for him anyway? Link to comment
Melancholy September 10, 2018 Share September 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said: Maybe I miss something crucial here (and I'm sure as hell don't get the "beauty" of Bangel hype), but couldn't little Willow be, I don't know, less enthusiastic about Buffy and her brooding murderous boyfriend after the whole Angelus crisis, Jenny's and Kendra's deaths, her own injury and Giles' ordeal? I could tolerate the girl's excitement over Buffy/Angel affair (though I still don't get it), when Angel was, well, Angel (240-plus something-years old undead guy perving on the teenage girls, but without murderous intentions). But after Acathla deal and everything saying something like that (with dreamy look in her eyes) in Giles presence was somehow tactless to say the least. Then again (and I remember that subject being raised once, but I'll repeat it anyway), was the so-called Ritual of Restoration (i. e. putting Angel's soul back into the body of psychotic killer) really that necessary and was such thing fair concerning Angel himself? Was making Angel live with another set of terrible memories good for him anyway? I'm fine with the Soul Restoration. First of all, there's only two tactics to stop Angelus from being a danger to the world and humans- stake him or ensoul him. Since the safety of humans and the world is the most important, I'm down for either tactic. Once Angel became a danger to public safety en masse, his possible trauma from the events of S2 was no longer important. It's ironic that you're positing whether cursing Angel with a soul is fair to Angel when *Angel* as a character only exists BECAUSE he's cursed with a soul and the memories of his past deeds. I know that I don't give a fuck what's fair to Angelus. An Angel without a soul should just be a pile of dust. It doesn't really compute for me to be "fair" to Angel by refusing to restore the thing that makes him "Angel"- his soul. Willow, Buffy and Co. weren't in the gypsy's position. They knew that Angel, once restored with a soul, did not stake himself for hundreds of years and then, they knew him as a guy who was living a whole life filled with heroics and romance and hanging at their club. I think it's logical for Willow and Buffy to believe that Angel would want his soul back more than to be a pile of dust. Moreover, it's a little like Buffy's resurrection in the sense that ensouling Angel gives him options on how to carry out his unlife instead of the gang making choices for him. If Angel is ensouled, he could choose to life with the S2 memories or he could stake himself. That's kinder to Angel than a bunch of teenagers projecting on whether Angel would rather be a pile of dust. I agree that Willow was being tactless. But I dunno, I have sympathy. She was still in a wheelchair, bruises all over her face, and she just went on an enormous limb casting that spell from her hospital and she was even possessed during some of it. She also really took Buffy's misery over the last few months to heart more than anyone else in the gang. I think Willow reached that point where her own emotions and problems were so overpowering that she didn't have room for tact. But yeah, it wasn't a great thing to say. 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex September 10, 2018 Share September 10, 2018 But Willow has a streak of Eternal Optimist in her: we've seen it at least twice already. When Buffy and Xander come back from the tunnels in The Harvest with the news about Jesse being a vampire, she was all "at least you two are okay". And when Buffy was talking about finding Giles drinking in his apartment in The Dark Age, Willow was "but tea, right?" And Willow has always been a bit of cheerleader for Bangel, even when Buffy tended to brood about it, going back to Angel. So it's not surprising that she takes a positive tack here. And Angel was their friend, after all. Xander's ready to write him off, but Giles is more ambivalent. I don't quite see Will as stepping on Giles's grief too much…Giles was encouraging the reensoulment last episode, after all. (And yes, the torture might have changed his mind, but perhaps Giles didn't spill the beans about that to the girl in the wheelchair, after all.) 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 10, 2018 Share September 10, 2018 9 hours ago, Halting Hex said: And Angel was their friend, after all Angel was friends with B/W/G/C. Angelus? Not so much. And Willow couldn't know for sure, 'cause that was her first big spell. "I think the spell worked" sounds like a suggestion, not a statement. Having "a streak of Eternal Optimist" is good, though Bangel is not something to be optimistic about (but JMO here). Optimism out of thin air it was at that moment. 9 hours ago, Melancholy said: An Angel without a soul should just be a pile of dust Angel as a pile of dust? Fine with me. No need for Willow to put her life (her soul and sanity) at risk here. Walking corpses don't deserve such sacrifice (even if your best friends happens to be madly in love with one). And why not let 245-years-old Angel finally "rest in peace" and scatter his dust on Kingman's Bluff? 9 hours ago, Halting Hex said: And Willow has always been a bit of cheerleader for Bangel Well, I love Willow, but her RBD (Rooting for Bangel Disorder) will always be something I cannot totally understand. Call me old-fashioned, but Willow probably had her reasons to think 200-plus something-years old perv, who couldn't walk in the light, impregnate a girl (or be genuinely happy without falling into his old Angelus self) and had to eat rats (phew!) occassionaly, was the best for her 17-years-old best friend. Spoiler At least Willow wasn't that jubilant when it came to Xanya. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback September 11, 2018 Share September 11, 2018 23 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Angel was friends with B/W/G/C. Angelus? Not so much. And Willow couldn't know for sure, 'cause that was her first big spell. "I think the spell worked" sounds like a suggestion, not a statement. Having "a streak of Eternal Optimist" is good, though Bangel is not something to be optimistic about (but JMO here). Optimism out of thin air it was at that moment. Angel as a pile of dust? Fine with me. No need for Willow to put her life (her soul and sanity) at risk here. Walking corpses don't deserve such sacrifice (even if your best friends happens to be madly in love with one). And why not let 245-years-old Angel finally "rest in peace" and scatter his dust on Kingman's Bluff? Well, I love Willow, but her RBD (Rooting for Bangel Disorder) will always be something I cannot totally understand. Call me old-fashioned, but Willow probably had her reasons to think 200-plus something-years old perv, who couldn't walk in the light, impregnate a girl (or be genuinely happy without falling into his old Angelus self) and had to eat rats (phew!) occassionaly, was the best for her 17-years-old best friend. Hide contents At least Willow wasn't that jubilant when it came to Xanya. She never had the hots for Angel. Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 11, 2018 Share September 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: She never had the hots for Angel. Watching the expression on Willow's face whenever the topic of Angel-Angel-Angel (does every conversation we have have to come around to that freak?) was raised told me otherwise. Even after him losing his soul, almost snapping Willow's neck (Innocence), killing her fish and almost kicking her out of her own house at night (Passion), Willow still tried to kinda cheer Buffy up in some twisted way, when it came to the broody boy: Quote Willow: Thanks for having me over, Buffy. Especially on a school night and all. Buffy: No problem. Hey, sorry about your fish. Willow: Oh, it's okay. We hadn't really had time to bond yet. Although for the first time I'm glad my parents didn't let me have a puppy. Buffy: It's so weird... Every time something like this happens, my first instinct is still to run to Angel. I can't believe it's the same person. He's completely different from the guy that I knew. Willow: Well, sort of, except... Buffy: Except what? Willow: You're still the only thing he thinks about. Gee, Buffy, your ex-boyfriend had become a ruthless murderer and SOSOB (sick old son of the bitch) who'd kill you without a second thought if given the opportunity. But YOU are always on his mind and he still thinks and only has eyes for you. So keep your head up, Buffy, He's completely different, but he can't live without you anyway, Link to comment
Melancholy September 11, 2018 Share September 11, 2018 On 9/10/2018 at 6:57 AM, lembergwatcher said: Well, I love Willow, but her RBD (Rooting for Bangel Disorder) will always be something I cannot totally understand. Call me old-fashioned, but Willow probably had her reasons to think 200-plus something-years old perv, who couldn't walk in the light, impregnate a girl (or be genuinely happy without falling into his old Angelus self) and had to eat rats (phew!) occassionaly, was the best for her 17-years-old best friend. Hide contents At least Willow wasn't that jubilant when it came to Xanya. Quote QUOTE Willow: Thanks for having me over, Buffy. Especially on a school night and all. Buffy: No problem. Hey, sorry about your fish. Willow: Oh, it's okay. We hadn't really had time to bond yet. Although for the first time I'm glad my parents didn't let me have a puppy. Buffy: It's so weird... Every time something like this happens, my first instinct is still to run to Angel. I can't believe it's the same person. He's completely different from the guy that I knew. Willow: Well, sort of, except... Buffy: Except what? Willow: You're still the only thing he thinks about. Gee, Buffy, your ex-boyfriend had become a ruthless murderer and SOSOB (sick old son of the bitch) who'd kill you without a second thought if given the opportunity. But YOU are always on his mind and he still thinks and only has eyes for you. So keep your head up, Buffy, He's completely different, but he can't live without you anyway, I never interpreted Willow as gushing over Bangel in that sentence. Instead, Willow was feeling the tragedy that Angel's previous adoring focus on Buffy had been corrupted and twisted into an obsession with hurting Buffy and her friends. In this scene, Willow was terrified that Angel broke into her house and killed her fish so she ran over to Buffy's for comfort and protection. Willow wasn't enjoying or delighting in any of Angelus's behavior. I don't think Bangel was a healthy relationship but I can see how a teenager like Willow would find it romantic. Modern teenagers don't think ahead to whether they can have children with their crush or whether they can grow old with their crush. Teenagers, instead, think about how their crush can make life great RIGHT NOW. And Angel definitely had his RIGHT NOW benefits- he was gorgeous, he had the strength to help Buffy in her mission, Buffy could be honest about her mission with him because he was already clued into the supernatural, he was more thoughtful about giving gifts or remembering Buffy's needs than the standard high school boy. But then, Willow got enthusiastic about every potential boyfriend for Buffy in high school other than Xander because Willow had a crush on Xander. Scott Hope, Owen, that random dude asking Buffy out in I Only Have Eyes For You. When she matured by college, this crazy enthusiasm for getting Buffy a boyfriend quieted down but she still took a very strong interest in Buffy having successful relationships with Parker and Riley. 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 11, 2018 Share September 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: Willow wasn't enjoying or delighting in any of Angelus's behavior. Maybe, she wasn't. Although my initial impression was opposite (that she was still "under Angel's spell" somehow). 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: Modern teenagers don't think ahead to whether they can have children with their crush or whether they can grow old with their crush. Teenagers, instead, think about how their crush can make life great RIGHT NOW. And Angel definitely had his RIGHT NOW benefits- he was gorgeous, he had the strength to help Buffy in her mission, Buffy could be honest about her mission with him because he was already clued into the supernatural, he was more thoughtful about giving gifts or remembering Buffy's needs than the standard high school boy. I wouldn't mind B/W not thinking ahead if Angel was an average jerk. But they were living on the Hellmouth, and Buffy was the Slayer, and the line between ensouled Angel and soulless Angelus was in fact very-very thin. Yeah, it was normal for W & B to act like teenage girls, although their involvement with slaying and other supernatural stuff could at least teach them to keep a few things in mind. Angel was gorgeous, but he's got blood on his hands, lots of blood. Willow for her part should have remembered those romantic stuff cost her friend Jesse his life. But even if you have a point here, it's still hard for me to understand some Willow's reactions during the whole Angelus crisis. Quote Cordelia: So Giles is gonna try to kill Angel then? Xander: Well, it's about time somebody did. Willow: Xander! Maybe I miss something here, but wasn't Jenny's fresh corpse enough to finish off Angel(us) or at least voice that opinion? Wasn't Willow herself crying madly after learning about Jenny's fate? What did Willow's exclamation mean anyway? Angel didn't deserve death for what he'd done? Strange... Also this part from Becoming, Part 1: Quote Xander: Hi! For those of you who have just tuned in, everyone here is a crazy person. So this spell might restore Angel's humanity? Well, here's an interesting angle. Who cares? Buffy: I care. Xander: Is that right. Giles: Let's not lose our perspective here, Xander. Xander: I'm Perspective Guy. Angel's a killer. Willow: Xander... Again. Did Xander say something wrong? Or simple reminder could "hurt" someone's (Buffy's and her cheerleader girl's) feelings? Little Willow chose cold blooded killer over her own best friend, stepped over Jenny's corpse, all in the name of Buffy's happiness with her vamp loverboy? Willow's resolve to please Buffy no matter what is quite sickening sometimes to say the least. Quote Buffy: Well, I'll do a couple of sweeps, and then I'll stop by. Yeah, Xander was pretty much being a... Willow! Where did you learn that word? My God. You kiss your mother with that mouth? Well, once again, I may be wrong here, but calling Xander names just for voicing reasonable opinion and not bowing to the general "We have to restore poor innocent baby Angel's soul!!!!" madness, 'cause Angel, you know, was muuuuch more worthy of second chance, than, say, Theresa or Jenny, or any other Angelus' victim, that was low, mean and disgusting even. The whole enthusiasm for all the things Buffy-related had to have some limits. But JMO. Edited September 11, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Halting Hex September 11, 2018 Share September 11, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Willow: You're still the only thing he thinks about. Willow isn't "gushing over Bangel" here, she's reassuring Buffy that no matter what Angel says, Buffy meant something to him. That "I thought you were a pro" was Angel being mean, not Angel having never cared for Buffy and dropping her now that he got what he wanted. She's validating Buffy's sense of self, not saying Angel is still a good boyfriend candidate. 1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said: Maybe I miss something here, but wasn't Jenny's fresh corpse enough to finish off Angel(us) or at least voice that opinion? Well, Xander's "It's about time" seems to indicate that Buffy's been derelict in her duty and that Jenny's death is pretty much her fault. Which is a fair opinion for Xander to hold but Willow can be protective enough of Buffy's feelings that she doesn't want Xander to say that to Buffy's face, especially as Buffy is already dealing with a lot of shit. Plus, this seems as though it might lead to a Big Scooby Fight and maybe Willow's not exactly in the right emotional place for that, either. 1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said: Again. Did Xander say something wrong? Or simple reminder could "hurt" someone's (Buffy's and her cheerleader girl's) feelings? It's not a "reminder", Xander already said "who cares?" about possibly restoring Angel's soul and Buffy said "I care", so he's ignoring her opinion and trying to ram his home. He's reducing it to "Angel's a killer", ignoring the fact that the restored Angel would be a fusion of the killer demon and the innocent soul. Which worked mostly as a force for good, until the soul went bye-bye. Now, let's get this clear: I AM 100% ON XANDER'S SIDE here. He's just using the wrong arguments. 1) The curse already was broken once. Who's to say the second time around will be any more permanent? Even if Curse 2.0 lasts another century, isn't that still just kicking the can down the road? 2) Yes, the human soul is (for all they know) innocent, but doesn't that mean the soul deserves something better than being jammed into a walking corpse with a demon as a roommate? 3) Even if "Angel" can be restored, what about all the dead people? Xander does eventually get to this argument, with his "What is this, 'come home, all is forgiven'?" But that's different from a flat "Angel's a killer"; one discusses what Angel has actually done, then other is judging his basic nature (which is subject to more debate). Also he ignores the possibility that resouling Angel might save lives (given that they don't even know where Angel is at this point) and then they can discuss what to do about him later. It's not as if there's an expiration date on stakes, after all. Meanwhile people (Kendra, the Xander-shaped sacrifice) end up dying while the Scoobs are debating. But Xander just wants to "win" by bulling ahead, never mind Buffy's feelings (or Giles's, as we get to discussing Jenny's intentions [Where again, Xander misses a chance to make a better argument by going for the blunt "Yeah? Well, Jenny's dead", which doesn't really go well]). And so it makes sense for Willow to be protective of her other friends and somewhat appalled by Xander's demeanor, the logic of his position aside. 1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said: I may be wrong here, but calling Xander names just for voicing reasonable opinion and not bowing to the general "We have to restore poor innocent baby Angel's soul!!!!" madness, It's not what he said, but how he said it. Hell, he even jumped down Cordelia's throat before realizing that she was actually on his side. If that's not a clue that Xander needed to slow his roll, I don't know what is. 1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said: Angel, you know, was muuuuch more worthy of second chance, than, say, Theresa or Jenny, or any other Angelus' victim Angel can get his "second chance" (arguably third) by having his soul restored; he becomes the same guy they knew before, for better or for worse. But Theresa and Jenny and Uncle Enyos and the hooker in the alley and the girl outside the Bronze and the quaint little shopgirl and Spoiler Travis and his neatly-arranged children are dead; Willow can't bring them back. The best she can do is create new zombies. Which given how far Jenny's corpse has decayed by now (Jenny died in February, this is June) might not be the best idea… Edited September 11, 2018 by Halting Hex 1 Link to comment
Loandbehold September 11, 2018 Share September 11, 2018 42 minutes ago, Halting Hex said: It's not what he said, but how he said it. Which was often one of Xander's biggest problems. He was right, but the way he said it hurt his argument or at least took away from it's impact. 3 Link to comment
Halting Hex September 11, 2018 Share September 11, 2018 As torture goes, probably better than a chainsaw. But still…Jenny! *sniff* Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 11, 2018 Share September 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Well, Xander's "It's about time" seems to indicate that Buffy's been derelict in her duty and that Jenny's death is pretty much her fault. After Buffy's "Give me time" moment in Innocence all the talk about dereliction of duty in her case wasn't that unfounded, methinks. Kicking Angelus in the groin was spectacular, I agree. Sadly that didn't prevent him from going after Jenny and killing dozens (or maybe hundreds) more between February and June. I'm not pointing fingers here, but dusting Captain Forehead right there in that side hall would have saved a lot of lives (Jenny's including). 'Cause IMO Buffy walking away after him saying "You can't do it. You can't kill me" had probably sent the broody boy a message: "The Slayer, she's still got some feelings for you", hence his own feeling of impunity afterwards. I can see no reason for Xander not to call Buffy out on that. 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: he's ignoring her opinion and trying to ram his home Good point. But why did Xander always have to respect Buffy's opinion, give up, follow her lead or compromise his principles, and not the other way around? Why not listen to what he had to say once in a while? 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: But Xander just wants to "win" by bulling ahead, never mind Buffy's feelings Well, Xander had a good mentor for all the things bulling-related, so... Then again lots and lots and lots of human lives at stake were no doubt a little more important than Buffy's feeling. Constantly debating or wasting precious times on rituals, having no knowledge whether they would work at all was dangerously reckless in their situation. It was natural for Buffy to be all Angel-Angel-Angel, but there was no reason for Xander to follow in her footsteps. As for Mr. Tweedy Pants, I don't see how snapping at Xander (the boy being somewhat tactless, I agree) could change the fact of Jenny no longer with them. If he did his job and made Buffy do hers, there'd be no need to mourn Miss Calendar at all. For every undusted vamp means only more and more innocent human lives lost. 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: it makes sense for Willow to be protective of her other friends Giles and Buffy were no kids that had to protected from something they didn't want to hear/accept. Lives of innocent people endangered by creeps like Spike or Angel stalking around and trying to bring Apocalypse, were what really mattered (at least should have if someone chose the priorities right). Buffy's or Giles' feelings could wait. They were mature enough to understand none of their problems would matter if Angel(us) had his way with Acathla. Spoiler I love Willow, but I would appreciate her protectiveness of Buffy/Giles if she showed even remotely the same concern when it came to Xander in season 3 (i. e. persuade everyone to let him participate in fighting Apocalypse #3 in The Zeppo rather then excluding him, leaving him feeling cast out and abandoned). Somehow someone else's feelings always mattered more to Willow, then her (supposed) best friend's since kindergarten. 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Angel can get his "second chance" (arguably third) by having his soul restored; he becomes the same guy they knew before, for better or for worse. But Theresa and Jenny and Uncle Enyos and the hooker in the alley and the girl outside the Bronze and the quaint little shopgirl and Hide contents Travis and his neatly-arranged children are dead; Willow can't bring them back. Willow didn't have to bring Theresa or Uncle Enyos, or Jenny or Kendra or anyone else back from the dead, no. But if those people couldn't have their second chance due to numerous reasons, why bother giving a vampire his third? Deadboy did some good things, true. But that hardly made him such a huge gift for the mankind to let Willow (not an experienced Wicca at that point) risk her life and sanity first and foremost, trying to put Angel's soul back into the body of a demon. Spoiler The Scoobs weren't supposed to know about Shanshu Prophecy and other shit back then. And Angel's feverish activity in the capacity of W&H L.A. branch's manager later did in fact help unleashing the army of Hell on the city (like the Beast and Jasmine weren't enough). Edited September 11, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
illdoc September 11, 2018 Share September 11, 2018 Spoiler 2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: The Scoobs weren't supposed to know about Shanshu Prophecy and other shit back then At this particular point, no one knew about that prophecy. Link to comment
Halting Hex October 9, 2018 Share October 9, 2018 Somebody posted the "Buffy comes out of the slaying closet" scene on YT, and thus a little micro-commentary: For the first time I notice that on "Dru bagged a slayer?", James has Spike look towards KS, as if he was expecting Joyce to share his good mood at the news. Hehe. However, I do also notice that Spike gets increasingly irritated at Joyce any time she interrupts thereafter, until he buggers off. So much for all that "friendship" talk, I guess. And the tighter focus really emphasizes the metaphor: "Do you think I chose to be like this? Do you have any idea how lonely it is?" Oh, come on, Buffy, take it easy…being a lesbian isn't that bad. ;) Spoiler Just ask Willow. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback October 11, 2018 Share October 11, 2018 On 10/10/2018 at 12:00 AM, Halting Hex said: Somebody posted the "Buffy comes out of the slaying closet" scene on YT, and thus a little micro-commentary: For the first time I notice that on "Dru bagged a slayer?", James has Spike look towards KS, as if he was expecting Joyce to share his good mood at the news. Hehe. However, I do also notice that Spike gets increasingly irritated at Joyce any time she interrupts thereafter, until he buggers off. So much for all that "friendship" talk, I guess. And the tighter focus really emphasizes the metaphor: "Do you think I chose to be like this? Do you have any idea how lonely it is?" Oh, come on, Buffy, take it easy…being a lesbian isn't that bad. ;) Hide contents Just ask Willow. No, he just wants an audience but it's inappropriate and that make it funny. I love the Spike/Joyce relationship and we see it again in Spoiler Lover's Walk and elsewhere. Link to comment
Halting Hex October 18, 2018 Share October 18, 2018 Really missing my episodes (my stuff still hasn't arrived from my old house) so I took a quick look at this on Vimeo, from the teaser where the Hottie Cop (Susan Leslie) describes the fugitive Buffy as "extremely dangerous" and I, as I always do, say "you have no idea" (even though I contend that Buffy is never the same badass after this season), and then a quick jump ahead to the final 10 minutes, where I noticed three things I hadn't seen before: 1) Spoiler When Buffy tells Giles and Willow the tragic sequence of events in Faith, Hope, and Trick ("so I told him that I loved him, and I kissed him, and I killed him"), she's actually getting the order wrong. The kiss comes before the "I love you". Poetic license, I suppose. 2) Dang, that's a lot of empty hangers in Buffy's wardrobe that we see as Joyce is spotting the note on the bed. Girl seriously overpacked. Either that, or Joyce decided to punish Buffy for walking out by taking all her clothes and putting them in the basement. (Gotta maximize that storage space, you know!) 3) I never noticed before, but Giles actually has a pretty nasty cut across his forehead in the final scene. I always just assumed that was a wandering lock of hair. You'd think that whoever attended to his fingers would have put a bandage on that cut, too. Sloppy work, Sunnydale General. But still…*sniff*. Link to comment
Halting Hex November 2, 2018 Share November 2, 2018 Ben Gilbert, one of my unspoiled commenters, notes that it's more than a little odd that the blessed sword is just laying around the Library for Buffy to come pick it up. I know, I know, the Sunnydale police are "deeply stupid" as Snyder says in this very scene, but you'd think they'd know how to inventory a homicide scene a little better than this. Especially as the victim (Kendra) died from having her throat slit. Seems as though you might want to pick up any random swords laying around and make sure they aren't your murder weapon. But that's just me. Likewise, given that Buffy went to all the trouble to leave the sword with Kendra (and after Kendra brought it all the way from wherever! Rude, Buffy!), it's a bit odd that Kendra didn't use it during the Part 1 melee, just sticking to the usual Slayer-fu. I know, I know, we hadn't seen any vampire deaths by decapitation at this point (unless you count the guy Buffy dusted by hurling the cymbal in The Harvest), so Joss was saving it for Buffy to decapitate the henchvamp in this ep (given that the show isn't called Kendra the Vampire Slayer, after all), but that's outside the show. Inside the show, it's a little odd that such a big deal is made of the sword…and then Buffy doesn't bring it with her to fight Angel, and Kendra doesn't use it to try and defend the Library. Honestly, people…you don't have to wait until the third act to fire Chekhov's Gun, you know. Use the damn sword! Sigh. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback November 2, 2018 Share November 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Ben Gilbert, one of my unspoiled commenters, notes that it's more than a little odd that the blessed sword is just laying around the Library for Buffy to come pick it up. I know, I know, the Sunnydale police are "deeply stupid" as Snyder says in this very scene, but you'd think they'd know how to inventory a homicide scene a little better than this. Especially as the victim (Kendra) died from having her throat slit. Seems as though you might want to pick up any random swords laying around and make sure they aren't your murder weapon. But that's just me. Likewise, given that Buffy went to all the trouble to leave the sword with Kendra (and after Kendra brought it all the way from wherever! Rude, Buffy!), it's a bit odd that Kendra didn't use it during the Part 1 melee, just sticking to the usual Slayer-fu. I know, I know, we hadn't seen any vampire deaths by decapitation at this point (unless you count the guy Buffy dusted by hurling the cymbal in The Harvest), so Joss was saving it for Buffy to decapitate the henchvamp in this ep (given that the show isn't called Kendra the Vampire Slayer, after all), but that's outside the show. Inside the show, it's a little odd that such a big deal is made of the sword…and then Buffy doesn't bring it with her to fight Angel, and Kendra doesn't use it to try and defend the Library. Honestly, people…you don't have to wait until the third act to fire Chekhov's Gun, you know. Use the damn sword! Sigh. Oh YouTube? Link to comment
Halting Hex November 5, 2018 Share November 5, 2018 So, I've started following a video reactor, because she's unspoiled (of course) and because she's not overdoing things like some of those people I've seen trying to be "internet famous" by screeching uncontrollably with joy and that sort of thing. (There were a couple of "reactions" to Taylor Swift's reputation that made me flat-out cringe. I don't hate the album [I think it's her worst since the debut, though; I guess Karlie Kloss just isn't the "muse" that Dianna Agron was*], but the "OMG tay-LOR!!!!" stuff wasn't helping, let's just say. Even if it wasn't these idiots' idea to have Ed Sheeran rap. [Seriously, TS…wtf?]) But Shan is a teenage girl (Australian), so she's right in the target audience, and she's blessedly inarticulate and not terribly bright, so she's not getting ahead of the plot or anything. She had no clue that Angel was a vampire, for example, so her reaction the bedroom scene in Angel went something like this (of course, she's a HUGE B/A fan at this point; as I wrote, target audience): Quote Awww…awww…I love them…they kissed!…what??………he's a vampire?…how is he a vampire? [new scene] Was he evil all along? It's so fun to see it all through her eyes. (She was convinced that Angel was dying at the end of Surprise, and was yelling at Buffy to wake up and save him! It was hilarious. Don't worry, Shan…he'll be fine. People around him, not so much…but he's fine.) So it's even more surprising when she brings up something I hadn't thought of before. As in this episode, where we get to the end with Buffy watching the group on the school steps and Willow saying the final [spoken] line of the season, "she'll be by in a while". And Shan was like, "they don't know she got kicked out", which is absolutely true and something I completely missed all these times. Cordelia is hoping for Buffy to join them at final exams ("We still have school") and Willow's co-signing it, and Giles is wondering about Buffy's emotional state, as is Oz ("well, then she'd want to be alone")…and not one of them knows about the practical barrier to Buffy's coming onto school grounds, the fact that she's been expelled. (I don't know if Willow and Oz even know that the police want to talk to Buffy, although Xander does and Giles and Cordy probably do. But none of them are aware that Buffy can't even legally cross that street, never mind the emotional turmoil that puts her on the bus out of town. So it's a nice piece of detail work, to have Willow close the season in such hopeful, blissful ignorance as Buffy shoulders her burden and leaves, brokenhearted on more than just one count. JMO.) So, well-spotted, Shan! Thumbs up, down under! *-yes, I mean "muse" just the way you think I do. But such "muse"-ings are wayyy OT for this forum, I'll admit. ;) Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 9, 2018 Share December 9, 2018 (edited) Many people strongly dislike Xander for his attitude in Becoming, Part 1 and even hate him for the The Lie™ in Becoming, Part 2. Even if he was a little bit too harsh with Buffy regarding Angel's re-ensouling, there's a question bothering me: what if everything turned out to be the way Buffy, Willow and Giles wanted? What if Angelus failed to take the sword out of Acathla and thus Buffy didn't have to send the love of her life to hell dimension? Angel was his souled self once again, Buffy got her boyfriend back, everyone was happy and... what's next? The gang had to join hands and sing Kumbaya, and act like nothing ever happened: no murders, no ending the world attempt? Screw Jenny, screw Theresa, screw Kendra, screw Doug Perren, screw uncle Enyos, screw dozens or hundred of nameless victims like the girl Angelus killed in the alley or the man he sacrificed trying to invoke Acathla? Just because Buffy loved Angel everything had to be forgiven? I'm just asking... And the next thing: most people like to tear Xander a new one for telling Buffy to kick Angelus' vampiric ass while no one seems to question Willow's decision to send Xander with a message, i.e. telling Buffy to focus her attention on giving Angel a chance, rather than stopping Angelus and his minions and saving billions of innocent lives. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out telling Buffy about the spell would've only distracted the Slayer and probably left her dead in the end. I adore Willow and I do not doubt she sincerely wanted to help, but I think lots and lots and lots of human lives should have come first, not Buffy's happiness. The fate of the world couldn't depend solely on whether talented but so far young and inexperienced Wicca succeeded or failed with the Ritual of Restoration. Xander was 100% right trying to discourage his resolve-faced best friend: there was absolutely no guarantee the ritual would work the way Buffy, Willow and Giles expected, given that Willow was a newbie, sustained serious injury several hours earlier and therefore wasn't in her best condition. She could have fainted in the middle of the ritual and thus be unable to properly finish it. Putting the lives of so many people at risk in the name of Bangel was a little bit arrogant and irresponsible, I must say, True, we, the viewers, know Willow succeeded, restoring Angel's soul in the end but Xander wasn't supposed to have a foresight. OTOH he was smart enough to understand what would happen if Willow failed while Buffy kept on waiting for her precious Angel to return. Most of you will probably disagree, but my point is: too many things were at stake. Too many things way more important than Buffy's love life. And while I love Willow for being true friend, I find her self-confidence and eagerness to please Buffy at all costs (even her own life) a little bit inappropriate at the moment. The safety of mankind should have been the top priority, not Bangel. Maybe Xander's motives weren't utterly altruistic, but the guy did the whole world a favor by lying to Buffy, whether you like it or not. Say what you will, but he was the only person, who could think straight, while Angel(us) had to pay for his crimes. It wasn't The Lie™ that sealed Angel's fate, but taking the sword out of Acathla, after all. The Lie™ turned out to be the easiest way for the Bangel sect not to accept the truth about Angel(us) deserving torment in hell, but to shift the blame away from their favorite vampire and make Xander a scapegoat. JMO, of course. Edited December 10, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Halting Hex December 17, 2018 Share December 17, 2018 (edited) On 12/9/2018 at 5:01 PM, lembergwatcher said: no one seems to question Willow's decision to send Xander with a message Well, seeing that Willow is trying the spell again (which was the settled Scooby policy, after all), it makes sense that she should want to keep Buffy in the loop. "Buffy needs to know what's going on" is a reasonable position, IMO. But that doesn't mean Xander was wrong to bite his lip; not only is there the "do we really need to distract Buffy?" issue going on, but Xander's seen Willow's condition. It's reasonable he'd have doubts that she was even able to make the attempt. I don't blame Xander for choosing to filter the information any more than I blame Willow for wanting to provide it. Meanwhile, back in another corner of the plot: Quote JOYCE: Um, have we met? SPIKE: You hit me with an axe one time. (imitating her) "Get the Hell away from my daughter!". . . The most recent time I saw this, it struck me (pardon the pun) that Spike probably doesn't really need to provide the clarifying quote. I mean, it's not as if Joyce hits lots of people with axes, after all. But, to be fair, Spike doesn't know this. Indeed, if you look at School Hard, it's quite possible that Spike thinks that Joyce is an active Scooby member. ("A Slayer with family and friends. That sure as hell wasn't in the brochure.") Which means that Spike's "what, your mum doesn't know?" in this episode is about more than just general surprise that Buffy's keeping a secret; he's processing information that contradicts his preconceptions of the Buffy/Joyce relationship. This is probably why he doesn't object to Buffy's suggestion they go to her house; as far as he knows, that's as much Scooby Central as the Library is. Intriguing. Edited December 17, 2018 by Halting Hex 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex January 5, 2019 Share January 5, 2019 (edited) Quote BUFFY: I never should've let her try to do that curse. Angel must've known. She reaches up to Willow's face and brushes back a few stray hairs. And all is right with the world. Willow may be "too good" for Buffy (although Willow herself would strongly disagree), but love is love. Awww x infinity. Quote BUFFY: Where are her parents? XANDER: With relatives in Phoenix. I gave them a call. They're... they're getting on a plane back. BUFFY: Does Oz know? XANDER: (realizes his omission) Oh, man. Um... I didn't even think. Um... I'll call him. And there's something for Team Xillow. Apparently Xander has subconsciously adopted Giles's "ignore him and maybe he'll go away" strategy from Passion (where it really didn't work so well, but I digress…) wrt Oz. Arguably, this is evidence that Xander's later "I love you" to Coma!Willow was definitely not of the "we're such great friends, help me pass trig, little buddy!" variety. I mean, he sees Willow in pain and completely forgets about Willow having a boyfriend…well, I'm just saying. Speaking of things that are omitted: Quote BUFFY: (raises her voice also) No, it doesn't stop! It never stops! Do-do you think I chose to be like this? Do you have any idea how lonely it is, how dangerous? I would love to be upstairs watching TV or gossiping about boys or... God, even studying! But I have to save the world... again. But…but…Buffy doesn't have a TV in her room! (And I don't think Joyce has one in hers, either. If I'm not mistaken, it's just the living room set and that's all.) Is Buffy taking the opportunity of the fight to passive-aggressively guilt Joyce about not buying her a TV? ("Daddy would let me have a TV in my room…") Seem unlikely, but you never know. Maybe that's what the note said? "I'm out of here, like you wanted. I should have known you never loved me, since you wouldn't buy me a TV. Not even used! Bye, bitch!" Okay, maybe not… ;) Edited January 5, 2019 by Halting Hex Link to comment
lembergwatcher January 5, 2019 Share January 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Halting Hex said: Arguably, this is evidence that Xander's later "I love you" to Coma!Willow was definitely not of the "we're such great friends, help me pass trig, little buddy!" variety. I mean, he sees Willow in pain and completely forgets about Willow having a boyfriend…well, I'm just saying. Was that really so necessary to mention freakin' Oz's name right there, Buffy?.. :((((( I'm just asking... Link to comment
Halting Hex January 15, 2019 Share January 15, 2019 So, Buffy and Spike are in a band, huh? Okay, let's fill in the rest of the roster: • Buffy on drums? Well, she is familiar with using pointed wooden objects in the a rhythmic manner, I suppose. I wonder about her being able to see over the kit, given that she's "so little", but I could see it. • Oz is lead guitar, obviously. It's just a question of getting him away from the Dingoes for the dates on the schedule. • Willow plays the piano, as mentioned in The Puppet Show. Given her facility with computers, it's easy to see her being able to work with programmable synths and keyboards, as well. • Giles plays the bass, as seen from the picture of "Ripper" in The Dark Age. Poor Jenny, no wonder she was doomed. After all, "nobody marries the bass player", am I right? (I just never knew this was enforced via neck-snappage, usually.) • Xander owns an acoustic guitar, as seen on his bedroom wall in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered. We've never heard any reference to his playing it, but if he's even tried noodling around with it (perhaps as part of his affection for country music, "the music of pain", per Prophecy Girl) maybe Oz can at least teach him some backing parts. • Spike as the singer? Sure, he said he can, but it's Spike; he might very well be lying. Not to mention the "evil soulless thing" thing…or his being unavailable for daytime festival shows. I don't know… …but OTOH, what's the alternative? Cordelia? Yeah, we saw how that went. So maybe Bleach Boy gets the gig, after all. (Plus this means the group can have Drusilla as a groupie. Yay?) Link to comment
lembergwatcher January 15, 2019 Share January 15, 2019 And what's the name of the band? SFHW (Sexually Frustrated Hero Wannabes)? Spoiler I presume Spike's stint with the band couldn't last too long due to Bleach Boy going ablaze during their very first open air gig. So it was Giles' turn to take over the vocal duties. And Buffy would be kicked out of the band because of her notorious lack of discipline and replaced with the drum machine. Oz took off soon afterwards since he knew he belonged with the Dingoes, thus leaving Xander no choice but to switch to the electric guitar. After all there's only just the three of them (G, X, W)... Link to comment
Loandbehold January 15, 2019 Share January 15, 2019 5 hours ago, Halting Hex said: • Xander owns an acoustic guitar, as seen on his bedroom wall in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered. We've never heard any reference to his playing it, but if he's even tried noodling around with it (perhaps as part of his affection for country music, "the music of pain", per Prophecy Girl) maybe Oz can at least teach him some backing parts. Well, next season we learn Spoiler Xander played the flugelhorn in 8th grade, but stopped b/c he got zero trim. He made no mention of the acoustic guitar. Maybe he couldn't get any trim playing the folk music, so gave that up as well. 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher January 23, 2019 Share January 23, 2019 I've always wondered about the slightly pained expression on Xander's face during the conversation the gang minus Buffy has in front of the Sunnydale High after Angelus crisis is resolved (he seems to be more upset than everyone else...). Is it due to: 1. Buffy's disappearance and no news from her; 2) Him feeling bad about twisting Willow's message to Buffy (though it's very unlikely IMO); 3) Willow calling the worst guitarist's of all times name after waking up from coma; 4) All the events that have taken place in the last few days; 5) All of this combined? I'm just curious... Link to comment
lembergwatcher February 1, 2019 Share February 1, 2019 There's another thing that bothers me in regard to Xander/Willow/Oz scene. The words of love brought our Wicca back, right? Did Willow and Oz ever talk about such an important moment in their relationship? Did Willow ever try to, you know, show her gratitude to the guy whose love literally saved her life? Did she ever say a freaking word??? I mean, they dated, they had to talk about something! Slaying vampires, Oz's band or Buffy/Deadboy "love story" couldn't have been the sole topic of their conversations, after all. Either Willow didn't cover that subject (which was odd, to say the least) or she did and some noble guy with a hairy back decided not to break the bubble. What a dick. Spoiler And, finally, the billion dollar question: why did Xander chose to remain silent on the issue for five straight years? He started fluking with Willow in a few months, when the memories should have been fresh. The fluke lasted for... how long? Several weeks AFAIK. And in spite of this Xander has never whispered a word. I can't believe that a talkative guy like Xander who was known for saying many things, appropriate and inappropriate alike, could keep his mouth shut 24/7. Him and Willow had to communicate, to talk and yet... nothing. Furthetmore, five years later, when Willow has just returned from her English rehab, there was IMO another opportunity to at least hint and yet Xander, who seemed to be brave enough to expose his feelings on the Bluff, decided to bury his head in the sand. What a... Link to comment
Halting Hex February 1, 2019 Share February 1, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Spoiler And, finally, the billion dollar question: why did Xander chose to remain silent on the issue for five straight years? He started fluking with Willow in a few months, when the memories should have been fresh. Spoiler He thought that Willow had made her choice, when she hears his declaration and assumes it's Oz saying it. He thinks that she's saying that Oz is the one she wants to hear those "three little words" from. (I'd argue it's just confirmation bias, the girl's in a freaking coma and it's natural she'd assume it was her boyfriend saying this, but Xander's a former abused child, with self-esteem issues up the wazoo, so the "whipping boy raised by mongrels" can hardly bright-sky things this much.) Which IMO explains why Xander spends the whole "affair" going "Fluke, fluke, I respect Oz!" and such. He thinks he knows what Willow really wants, and is tearing himself up inside for imposing his Dirty Rotten Hormones on his best buddy. Sigh. Meanwhile, my big question is: if Willow thinks that Oz said the old 1-4-3 to her, how come she never says it back? (Maybe Wolfboy should have stuck around so he could go drinking with Riley, who is similarly left high and dry by Buffy on this front?) So perhaps that's why Willow doesn't want to have these sort of discussions with Oz, I'm thinking. Edited February 1, 2019 by Halting Hex Link to comment
lembergwatcher March 14, 2019 Share March 14, 2019 Is it just me or does anyone else notice that the whole Spike story arc or whatever in Becoming, Part 2 is kinda illogical and self-contradictory or otherwise stupid? First, he gives a rather long speech explaining why he doesn't want Angel to succeed with Acathla after encountering Buffy in the park. True, he comes to Little Miss Slay All solely because of his contempt for Angel and the desire to have his Drusilla-shaped obsession back. But OTOH Spike's attempts to restore status quo with Dru go against Angel's plans to bring hell on earth (I don't think S/D will be too excited with being sucked into some hell dimension while trying to make love, you know). A few hours later, during climax of Buffy/Angel duel in the mansion, when the Broody Boy starts to gain the upper hand, Spikey does what? Yeah, just shrugs and leaves. Why? Isn't Angel's defeat supposed to be in your interest too, Spike, my boy? Because him killing Buffy and not vice versa means total Apocalypse for everyone, persons and non-persons alike. Therefore everything (and by "everything" I literally mean everything) that is precious to Spikey in one way or another goes bye-bye: Manchester United, dog racing, strutting around with friends over a pint of blood, Picadilly, Leicester Bloody Square, billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs and, of course, sex with Dru. The fact of him approaching his Nemesis # 1 speaks volumes about burning anger and hatred for the other vamp. Spike doesn't have to "love" Buffy and wish her a good life, but finishing Angel(us) off obviously works for him too. He doesn't know about Willow working on transforming the Deadboy back into "the old Buffy-whipped Angelus" mode in her hospital room with the little help from Cordy and Oz. And the soulless Angel's continuing existence means constant threat for Spike's relationship with Drusilla. Buffy's defeat = total destruction, i.e. nowhere to run for two vampire lovers. Spike is clearly no intellectual in the vampiric community, but even he can't be that stupid not to realize the risks of leaving Buffy at Angel's mercy. JMO, of course. Link to comment
Halting Hex March 15, 2019 Share March 15, 2019 (edited) Nonsense. Take it from Tweed Boy himself, from part 1: Quote GILES: Acathla will create a vortex, a-a kind of, um... whirlpool that will pull everything on Earth into that dimension, where any non-demon life will suffer horrible and... eternal torment. Spike isn't "non-demon life", he's a demon. Acathla's dimension will probably be party central for him (and Drusilla, and Angel, and all the other nasty-pointy-bitey ones) being "free" (to quote the ritual) from whatever made this planet inimical to demonkind and forced the Old Ones to flee (per The Harvest) and caused the stragglers to have to mix their blood with humans (ew!) and take refuge within human bodies, rather than face the world the way it is now. That's why "ending the world" (either by opening the Hellmouth and letting the Old Ones return, as the Master planned in his Master-plan, or by moving the whole big blue marble to a more demon-friendly realm, as Angel intends here) is pretty much the ultimate in Vampire Goals. Perhaps in Acathla-ville, the vampires might even be able to shed their human hosts and be pure demons once again, as Spoiler Angel nearly does in Pylea in Through the Looking Glass. No wonder Drusilla is practically vibrating in excitement. On 3/14/2019 at 10:17 AM, lembergwatcher said: Therefore everything (and by "everything" I literally mean everything) that is precious to Spikey in one way or another goes bye-bye: Manchester United, dog racing, strutting around with friends over a pint of blood, Picadilly, Leicester Bloody Square, billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs Except that Spike doesn't actually give a damn about any of that; they're just excuses he uses to try and deny the basic truth of his motivation: "I want Dru back." Again, as I've written above, the parallel with Xander's speech to Coma!Willow is unmistakeable, IMO. Xander doesn't care about Willow helping him pass Trig, but it's hard for him to just come out and say "I love you" to his "buddy". Just as it's arguably even harder for Spike to admit to Buffy that "it's all about a girl", grand schemes be damned, and so he throws out line after line of nonsense before he's able to admit the basic truth: he doesn't care what happens to vampires in general, or even that he might enjoy Acathla's realm more, he just can't stand Dru being around "Daddy" for One.More.Minute, so he's trying to "get her back" by any means necessary. Even recruiting the Slayer. (Also, I suppose he realizes that if Angel did become the big vampire hero by sucking the world into Hell, he'd never get Dru to forget about "Angelus". So his basic plan comes down to either "Kill Angel" or "grab Dru and runnnnnn far away", and in the end he makes sure of the second part and just hopes that Buffy can handle the first part on her own. Which she does, sort of. Spoiler "Not the invasion of Normandy, but still a plan," as Riley will one day put it. ) On 3/14/2019 at 10:17 AM, lembergwatcher said: and, of course, sex with Dru. That wouldn't be hampered in the slightest. Buffy might spend eternity screaming in agony, post-hypothetical-world-suckage, but the demons will be perfectly happy demons, and quite possibly shagging enough to make even Spoiler Anya blush. The only potential spanner in the works would be Spike's being reduced to Dru's second choice, hence his decision to, essentially, opt for kidnapping and rape (shocking, huh?) over letting Angel achieve the Aurelian Dream. Traitor! Edited March 15, 2019 by Halting Hex 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher March 15, 2019 Share March 15, 2019 8 hours ago, Halting Hex said: So his basic plan comes down to either "Kill Angel" or "grab Dru and runnnnnn far away", and in the end he makes sure of the second part and just hopes that Buffy can handle the first part on her own. Which only proves my point about the idiocy of Spike's storyline here. Because "grab Dru and runnnnn far away" would be meaningless if Angel succeded with Acathla thus creating his demonic Brave New World. One doesn't have to be an oracle to know the first thing Angel would do after achieving his # 1 goal. Thus "kill Angel" should be top priority IMO. And if Spike's only hope is Buffy and her ability to handle Angelus crisis on her own, then he's even more stupid than I thought. How could he know that for sure, after all? Don't leave the whole job to someone else if you can do it as well. 9 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Except that Spike doesn't actually give a damn about any of that I don't think so. Being obsessed with getting his girlfriend back doesn't mean Spike can't truly enjoy some temptations and luxuries our wicked world provides. He may not care too much about any of that, but I doubt he's willing to give up everything in the name of his rival fulfilling the Aurelian Dream. Link to comment
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