S02.E22: Becoming, Part 2

[Mya Stone]

 

Spike strikes an unlikely alliance with Buffy to keep Angel from destroying the world.

 

There is just so much good in this episode. Spike and Buffy's begrudging alliance. Spike and Joyce having tea. "Get away from my daughter!": 

 

Giles being tortured is still hard to take. :( Dru getting into character? Still hilarious. 

 

"I have to save the world! AGAIN!" (My sister and I say that to each other sometimes when we're too busy to talk. We're weird.) 

 

Willow's first true foray into powerful magic. 

Xander being a dick. "Kick his ass?" Argh. Shut your face, Harris. :p 

The entire last 8 minutes of this episode is one that will forever be embedded somewhere in my mind. From the fight, to Spike knocking Dru out and taking her away, to the spell taking, to Buffy telling Angel to close his eyes, to the bus, and Buffy's lost look out of the bus window, to the Scoobies hopefulness that things will have a happy ending...sigh. 

 

Onto Season 3! 

[Dianthus]

We see many examples of communication in this ep.

Mindless Communication: the person acts solely as an instrument through which a ritual message is conveyed (the cop reading Buffy her rights, Willow speaking a language she doesn't understand).

Wordless Communication: Dru using her psychic abilities to understand Giles. Spike and Joyce sitting in awkward silence.

Deliberate Lying and Trickery: Spike & Buffy lying to Joyce about their relationship. Xander's "kick his ass" message from Willow.

Successful, Straightforward Communication: This happens for the most part between Spike and Buffy. The season-long parallels drawn between them are reinforced when Whistler tells Buffy "You're all you've got" and the very next scene features Spike telling Buffy "I'm all you've got." They really are each other's counterparts. For instance, Spike knows exactly how to get past Buffy's initial reluctance to listen: "He's got your Watcher. Right now, he's probably torturing him."  Plus, all Buufy has to do is clear her throat, and Spike realizes he shouldn't kill the cop if he wants Buffy's help. Later, all she has to do is look at him, and he understands that Kendra's death was not a good thing "from [her] perspective." 

Complete Communications Break-downs: Joyce's attempt at polite small talk with Spike fails spectacularly. Spike & Buffy's stong and fast connection, added to Spike and Joyce's complete inability to establish a connection, emphasize the disconnect between Buffy and Joyce. Right before she tells her mother, "I'm a vampire slayer," she looks to Spike, her mortal enemy, for support. He's a soulless monster, but he's much more a part of her world than her own mother.

 

Let me just say here, that I love the handful of scenes we get between Spike and Joyce as the series progresses. The disconnect between them will be bridged, until they're bonding over the (truly awful) soap opera Passions in s5's Checkpoint.

 

Great stuff:

Spike: "I told you. I want to stop Angel. I want to save the world."

Buffy: "You do remember that you're a vampire, right?"

Not always.

 

Spike: "I can't fight them both alone, and neither can you!"

Buffy: "I hate you."

 

Buffy said basically the same thing to Angel in s1, when she mistakenly believes he tried to kill her mother.

"I've killed lots of vampires. But I've never hated one before."

She does remember Spike's just a vampire, right?

 

It's true that Spike sees a chance to grab Dru and get gone, only to leave Buffy holding the bag. However, the impetus is there. It's just gonna take time to come to fruition.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Dianthus

[KittenPokerCheater]

I loved this episode, it made me laugh (Spike and Joyce) and cry (Joyce/Buffy, Buffy/Angel, Giles/Jenny/Dru) and that damn Sarah McLaughlin song, which I may or may not have memorized. 

 

I will never forget Spike talking about humans being little happy meals with feet.  Hee.  And I was 100% sold (souled?) on James Marsters with his delivery of "My God he's going to kill her."  And then his shrug.

 

They never really addressed what I think was Xander's dickish behavior when he didn't tell Buffy what Willow was trying to do.  That still rankles with me.

Edited August 7, 2014 by KittenPokerCheater

[Jazzy24]

Awwwwww............ Becoming, Part 2 my all time episode of television ever and the most heartbreaking ~sniff~

Buffy has practically everything taken away from her her boyfriend, school, home, possibly her freedom, and she's just so damaged at the end.

The things I Love

-Joyce finally knowing about Buffy. But the conversation was brutal and how Joyce and Buffy handled it was not good. Buffy broke my heart with her speech about how she wishes she was as other kids studying, gossiping but she can't and her job as slayer is dangerous and lonely and how she has to go save the world, again!!

-The final fight between Angel and Buffy was badass cause Buffy went in to kill, I know some people say that Xander and his infamous "kick his ass" was meant to keep Buffy focused but she would have did what she needed to do even knowing that Willow was going to try to bring Angel back again.

-Buffy being backed into a corner is the best because she comes out swinging harder than ever. I loved Angel taunting her and her response being "me"

- ~Sarah was perfect in the scene of Buffy sending Angel to hell that was tv at its best.

Buffy about to kill Angel exactly when he got his soul back and her being cautious, Angel confused and happy to see Buffy and worried about her having a cut on her arm. Buffy and Angel just holding each other you could see Buffy's pain/happiness of having him back and just wanting to be held by her soulmate. Than you could see the realization and pain in Buffy's face as hell opened up and she knew what had to be done, Sarah played Buffy's pain so heartbreaking. But Buffy knew and her telling Angel to close his eyes(a call back to when Darla told him the same thing when she turned him)and we see her kiss Angel and them say "I Love you" with their song playing in the back ground and Buffy's face twisting in pain as she shoved a sword through Angel to save the world ~sniff~ Angel saying "Buffy" and reaching out to her as he was dragged into hell ~crying~ and Buffy just standing there in that few seconds as what she just lost hits her and I'm sad so very sad.

I love love LOVE Sarah McLachlan's "Full of Grace" best hour of television ever!!

The things I didn't like

-Buffy leaving home and worrying Joyce and Giles

- Xander and his Willow says "kick his ass" and never getting the proper backlash because of the lie even years later when Buffy brought it up in "Selfless" he didn't blink an eye over it or Willow didn't get to ram him for that.

-Spike should have stayed gone

Edited August 5, 2014 by Jazzy24

[Spartan Girl]

- Xander and his Willow says "kick his ass" and never getting the proper backlash because of the lie even years later when Buffy brought it up in "Selfless" he didn't blink an eye over it or Willow didn't get to ram him for that.

 

 

I'll never understand why Buffy didn't confront him about that after she figured out what really happened, especially in the light of how nasty he was to her in "Dead Man's Party."  It only caused her more pain in the long run; before she went to fight Angel for the last time, she was already at an emotional low and probably wasn't even thinking about having Angel back.  If Xander HAD told her, she probably would have told him to tell Willow not to bother: she just wanted it done and over with.  But Xander took that choice away from her.  Instead, she had to go through with killing not Angelus the monster but Angel the man she loved.  What Buffy SHOULD have done when she found out about the spell was call out Xander about it and cut ties with him right then and there.

 

And it continues to piss me off how Xander gave her the "you don't know how I feel" speech about Anya in "Selfless" when Buffy KNEW PERFECTLY WELL how he felt.  And yet Xander continues to dismiss the situations as "different."  Now ask me again why I don't like Xander!

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

If Xander HAD told her, she probably would have told him to tell Willow not to bother: she just wanted it done and over with.

 

Of course, if we are making assumptions based on little but guesswork, I can then make the assumption that Xander telling Buffy would have led to her losing her resolve to kill Angel and to the not so insignificant result of the world ending. And it's not like they really had much time to call Willow or there was any guarantees she would listen. Most importantly, it's not like Xander had a dastardly plan to make Buffy suffer, the way you make it sound. Willow's spell working after Acathla was actvated but before he had turned Sunnydale into a literal hell hole was activated was far less likely than it working on time to save the day (or not working at all for that matter).

Edited August 5, 2014 by Jack Shaftoe

[DkNNy79]

I love love LOVE Sarah McLachlan's "Full of Grace" best hour of television ever!!

 

Probably one of the saddest tv moments I have ever seen.  I was (still am) a heavy Buffy/Angel shipper and I remember bawling like a baby.  I usually don't pay much attention to the music used in tv, but OMG whoever chose that song to play at that moment is a genius.  It totally fit the mood of the scene and to this day, I have that song on my ipod and listen to it all the time.  Just a heart breaking yet beautiful song and I'm surprised it was not more popular.

 

I also loved Buffy and Angel's "theme."  Talk about another hauntingly beautiful song.

[ladyrott]

I have always hated that Xander lied to Buffy about what Willow was up to, but honestly, what difference would it have made if Buffy HAD known?  She was battling Angel with all she had, trying to keep him from getting the sword out.  Knowing that Willow was trying the cure again wouldn't have made her fight any harder, she was already going at it full force.  She wouldn't not have been so surprised when Angel was re-souled, but I cant see how it would have changed the outcome.

[Jazzy24]

I have always hated that Xander lied to Buffy about what Willow was up to, but honestly, what difference would it have made if Buffy HAD known? She was battling Angel with all she had, trying to keep him from getting the sword out. Knowing that Willow was trying the cure again wouldn't have made her fight any harder, she was already going at it full force. She wouldn't not have been so surprised when Angel was re-souled, but I cant see how it would have changed the outcome.

Word we even saw how that Buffy didn't think twice about killing her "Angel"" when the world was threatened, Buffy did what she had too even if she had known that Willow was again trying to bring back Angel.

[pootlus]

I still can't listen to "Full of Grace" without crying, which I guess is about the best endorsement for the emotional wallop this episode delivers.

[Bitterswete]

Xander being a dick. "Kick his ass?" Argh. Shut your face, Harris. :p

 

I never had a problem with what Xander did because I would've done the exact same thing in his shoes. And without hesitation.

 

It's all well and good to speculate about what Buffy might have done if she'd known about the spell. But it's also totally logical and reasonable to think that knowing about the spell would've affected Buffy in exactly the wrong way in a situation where any doubt or uncertainty on her part, even if it only lasted for a second, could've been a disaster.

 

What Buffy SHOULD have done when she found out about the spell was call out Xander about it and cut ties with him right then and there.

 

I never really got this belief that Buffy finding out would end their friendship. The worst I expected from Buffy was for her to be pissed for a while but, after giving it some thought, to understand why someone might have thought telling her about the spell at that time would've been a bad idea.

 

Of course, if we are making assumptions based on little but guesswork, I can then make the assumption that Xander telling Buffy would have led to her losing her resolve to kill Angel and to the not so insignificant result of the world ending.

 

Exactly. There is absolutely no way of knowing what would've happened if she went into the fight knowing about the spell. And, like I said above, it just made sense for someone in Xander's shoes to have doubts.  Given how high the stakes were (the "everyone getting sucked into hell" thing) I think even the tiniest doubt made not telling her totally justified.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Cobalt Stargazer]

  What Buffy SHOULD have done when she found out about the spell was call out Xander about it and cut ties with him right then and there.

Not surprisingly, I agree with @Jack Shaftoe and @Bitterswete, because I also would have said "Kick his ass" without an ounce of regret about 'lying'. It's lovely to think that Buffy wouldn't have hesitated in her fight against Angelus, but that is based on assumption, just like its based on assumption that she would have if she had known about the souling spell.Also, the available evidence doesn't really support the notion. In Xander's shoes, knowing that Jenny and Kendra were already dead both directly and indirectly because of Angelus, and knowing that Willow could have been even more seriously injured by attempting the spell from her damn hospital bed, I would not be inclined to put Buffy's feelings first. Add to that the very real possibility that the entire world would get Hoovered into hell because of Acathla waking up, and Buffy's feelings become even more insignificant. I know that she loved Angel very much, and I'm not unsympathetic, but it never seems to occur to anyone who's in a rush to tear Xander's head off for 'The Lie' that if Buffy had done more than kick Angelus in the gonads, he wouldn't have had the psychopathic idea to wake up Acathla at all. If she had really beeen focused on killing him, she'd have done it at the factory, yes?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[KAOS Agent]

I wouldn't mind it if Xander had said kick his ass and not attributed it to Willow because that was Xander's perfectly reasonable response. However, it was not Willow's. When Buffy later brings it up however many seasons later, she throws it at Willow with some bitterness, so it clearly stuck with her. Instead of Buffy hearing Xander say, "Hey kick some ass in there!" Buffy believes that her friend, who was also at that moment working to do the spell to restore Angel's soul, wants her to kick his ass. Like I'm going to give him back to you, but kill him anyway! It's just one more thing that would push Buffy into thinking she needed to leave town because obviously Willow wanted him dead too and wouldn't understand Buffy's turmoil at having to kill re-ensouled Angel.  It's cool for Xander to tell Buffy to kick Angel's ass, but it is not okay that he applied that message to Willow. He should have just left her out of it. Or if he wanted to lie about the message just say that Willow wished her good luck.

Edited August 25, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[ladyrott]

I know we are going round and round on this topic (since the show aired, as I recall on TWoP  LOL) and I have already made my thoughts clear (it wouldn't have made a difference if Buffy had known about the spell, the outcome would have been the same).  Since others disagree, I am curious...What do those who disagree with that statement think the possible outcomes might have been?  I am not being a smartass, I am honestly curious.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I know we are going round and round on this topic (since the show aired, as I recall on TWoP  LOL) and I have already made my thoughts clear (it wouldn't have made a difference if Buffy had known about the spell, the outcome would have been the same).  Since others disagree, I am curious...What do those who disagree with that statement think the possible outcomes might have been?  I am not being a smartass, I am honestly curious.

I'll try not to venture into the realm of fanfic, but I do love hypotheticals, so here goes.

 

Angelus himself observed during a fight with Buffy, when he was distracting her from the library ambush that resulted in Kendra's death, that her fatal flaw is that she always thinks its about her. Having made a similar observation about her self-absorption, I'll let that stand on its own. But with that in mind, let's say she knew about the spell in advance. The best case scenario is that she 'kills'* him before the spell can take effect, and then she spends season three in a guilt-ridden funk because oh woe there was a chance that she could have saved him. The worst case scenario is that she's too hesitant, as she was too hesitant at the factory, Acathla wakes up and sucks the world into hell while Angelus laughs, and her friends and her mother die screaming. If she wasn't even willing to take five seconds to stake the smug bastard before Acathla became a factor in the equation, then pull Giles out of the burning factory, how exactly is knowing about the possibility that Angel's soul could have been restored a game changer? And yes, that's a real question, because I'm not really awake enough for snark yet.

 

*I will always take issue with the word kill as it applies to this scenario, if only because The Powers That Suck reversed Angel's 'death' three months later when they spat him out of that portal. If Buffy had known about that in advance, would she had been so quick to run away from home?

Edited August 25, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Bitterswete]

I wouldn't mind it if Xander had said kick his ass and not attributed it to Willow because that was Xander's perfectly reasonable response.

 

I doubt that, in the heat of the moment, that even crossed Xander's mind. I think he was focused on the whole "hell on earth" thing, and the possible consequences of telling Buffy about the spell. By comparison, whether or not Buffy thought Willow was the one who said those words probably didn't rank as all that important. To which I totally agree. To me, more important things were going on than making sure Buffy knew exactly who said what. I know that wouldn't have been my big concern in that situation.

 

It's just one more thing that would push Buffy into thinking she needed to leave town because obviously Willow wanted him dead too and wouldn't understand Buffy's turmoil at having to kill re-ensouled Angel.

 

And I really don't think Buffy left town because of how she thought Willow might feel about Angel. Really, I'd be shocked if Buffy thought of Willow at all beyond maybe the fact that she wouldn't be seeing her anymore. (Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Buffy wasn't even thinking of things like that when she left.) And I sure don't think that Buffy wouldn't have left if only Xander had been more clear about who said "kick his ass."

Edited August 25, 2014 by Bitterswete

[KAOS Agent]

I didn't say Buffy left town because she thought Willow said to kick his ass. I said that if she believes Willow wanted Angel dead no matter what, Buffy has reason to think that she can't look to Willow for support when she's sad about killing him and that's just one more person she doesn't feel she can count on to help her get through it. I don't really care about what Xander said, but it was a dick move to attribute it to Willow. It was unnecessary and stupid and it contributed to a bitterness that showed up years later, so it clearly had some effect on Buffy. 

 

As to not telling Buffy about reinstating the curse, Buffy killed Angel anyway, so why would it matter? Buffy knew the spell hadn't worked before, she had no reason to believe that a badly injured Willow could pull it off now. Angel was hard at work to end the world and they'd tortured Giles, so she was going to do what she had to do to stop him regardless. And she did.

Edited August 26, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[ladyrott]

I always thought the whole "Willow said to kick his ass" statement was extremely spontaneous on Xander's part.  He didn't set out to specifically lie to Buffy (IMO).  I always felt like he was about to tell her the real message (because why bring up that Willow had a message in the first place if he didn't intend to pass it on) and it occurred to him right before he said it that Buffy might make a bad choice if she had the knowledge that Willow was trying the spell again so he lied.  I don't think it was thought out, I don't think he specifically didn't tell her because he wanted her to kill Angel (although he certainly did want that).  I think he made a split second decision that the fight would go better if Buffy didn't know and he ran with it.

 

And yes, I realize this whole thing was part of a script written more than a decade ago, but these characters are still so real to me.  :)

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I didn't say Buffy left town because she thought Willow said to kick his ass. I said that if she believes Willow wanted Angel dead no matter what, Buffy has reason to think that she can't look to Willow for support when she's sad about killing him and that's just one more person she doesn't feel she can count on to help her get through it. I don't really care about what Xander said, but it was a dick move to attribute it to Willow. It was unnecessary and stupid and it contributed to a bitterness that showed up years later, so it clearly had some effect on Buffy. 

So, with that in mind, here's a hypothetical for you to chew on - what if it had been Willow who neglected to tell Buffy about the souling spell? Let's pretend that she was mobile instead of flat on her back in a hospital bed due to Buffy's falling for Angelus' trap. If Buffy didn't leave town because she thought Willow said kick his ass, why on earth would she take that extra step and think that Willow wanted Angel dead? It's an insult to Willow on Buffy's part that she'd make that leap, although I do think its worth noting that during the intervention later, it's Willow who tells Buffy that when it comes to Angel, she can't think straight. But that's not remotely the same thing as wanting him dead, IMO.

 

Also, and this might actually belong in the UO thread, but I think if it had been Willow who told 'The Lie', this conversation wouldn't keep coming up after *watch check* a million years. Xander having delivered the message serves as fodder for those who hate him for whatever reason, and allows them to crap on him for his "impertinence" in "making Buffy's decisions for her". If Willow was right about Buffy not being able to think straight about Angel, period, and I don't think it's ever been said that she wasn't, then maybe somebody with a colder eye should make her damn decisions for her.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Loandbehold]

I agree with ladyrott, Cobalt Stargazer (prior to the last post which I hadn't read as I was typing mine), and Bitterswete. Xander started out saying that Willow said to ..., then changed his mind at the last moment. By then it was too late to change it from Willow to himself. As for it not mattering if he told Buffy that Willow was trying the re-soul spell again, how was Xander to know that wouldn't matter? Less than 24 hours before, Buffy hadn't fought to kill Angel. Instead she went through a delaying action. Meanwhile, Kendra was killed, Giles was kidnapped (and tortured), and Willow and Xander were injured. Why wouldn't Xander think that Buffy would again hesitate to try to kill Angel if she knew there was a chance Willow could make the spell work? And, if she did hesitate, the consequences would be the world being sucked into a hell dimension and everyone tortured.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Loandbehold

[Jazzy24]

My problem with Xander saying the lie is that like everything else he says about Angel was that it came across as a jealous teenager getting another chance to say something spiteful. Xander is completely biased against Angel so I really can't think his "lie" was some way to make sure Buffy stayed focused on killing Angel.

If Oz, Cordelia, Giles, or Willow said the "lie" I could genuinely think they were saying it to make sure she stayed focus but Xander doing it came off like everything he's ever said about Angel(even when Angel was helping the Scoobies)as just spiteful and a way to see Angel dead.

And even if Buffy knew about Willow retrying the spell it didn't matter, the world was at stake and she was resolved to kill him, she was willing to do it even though Angel had returned.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

My problem with Xander saying the lie is that like everything else he says about Angel was that it came across as a jealous teenager getting another chance to say something spiteful. Xander is completely biased against Angel so I really can't think his "lie" was some way to make sure Buffy stayed focused on killing Angel.

If Oz, Cordelia, Giles, or Willow said the "lie" I could genuinely think they were saying it to make sure she stayed focus but Xander doing it came off like everything he's ever said about Angel(even when Angel was helping the Scoobies)as just spiteful and a way to see Angel dead.

And even if Buffy knew about Willow retrying the spell it didn't matter, the world was at stake and she was resolved to kill him, she was willing to do it even though Angel had returned.

Firstly, this just really proves my point, that Xander's dislike of Angel supposedly outweighs everything else, up to and including the world possibly being sucked into hell. Personally I have no problem with Xander disliking Captain Forehead, and I notice that it hardly ever comes up in the rush to label him as petty and spiteful that Angel tells Buffy that he's jealous of Xander because he "gets to see you in the daylight." What's ironic about that is that, if Angel traded places with Xander, Buffy probably wouldn't be into him, and that's neither here nor there.

 

Further, there's no evidence that says Buffy absolutely would have gone through with killing Angel(us) if she had known about the spell. Not when just before that, she let the son of a bitch off with a kick to the nuts instead of doing what she could have done and killed him at the factory. It's lovely to say that the world being at stake meant she was resolved to kill him, but why didn't she kill him before the world was at stake if she was actually resolved to do it? This is the question that no one has answered to my satisfaction, and its why I have no problem with what Xander said.

 

As a final (for now) note, it remains a peeve of mine that, when Becoming is the topic of conversation, its usually not about the overwhelmingly positive thing that Buffy did when she saved the world from being destroyed, but how personally devastating it was for her because she had to "kill" Angel. Screw the however many billions of lives that were saved, that she prevented hell from coming to Earth, what's really important is that that she lost Angel. And she continues to make it all about herself when she runs away from home instead of dealing with things. The way Xander was supposed to deal with things instead of being "spiteful and petty".

Edited August 26, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Dobian]

Well remember, this *is* a teenage girl we're talking about, and a teenage girl shouldn't be in the position of having to kill evil vampires to save the world in the first place.  So I can forgive Buffy for putting her tragic love life ahead of saving the world and running away instead of being the responsible "adult".  From an audience perspective, it's a general axiom that in any save-the-world plot, the saving the world part is always just a backdrop to what the audience really cares about - saving the characters we see on the screen.

[Jazzy24]

Firstly, this just really proves my point, that Xander's dislike of Angel supposedly outweighs everything else, up to and including the world possibly being sucked into hell. Personally I have no problem with Xander disliking Captain Forehead, and I notice that it hardly ever comes up in the rush to label him as petty and spiteful that Angel tells Buffy that he's jealous of Xander because he "gets to see you in the daylight." What's ironic about that is that, if Angel traded places with Xander, Buffy probably wouldn't be into him, and that's neither here nor there.

Further, there's no evidence that says Buffy absolutely would have gone through with killing Angel(us) if she had known about the spell. Not when just before that, she let the son of a bitch off with a kick to the nuts instead of doing what she could have done and killed him at the factory. It's lovely to say that the world being at stake meant she was resolved to kill him, but why didn't she kill him before the world was at stake if she was actually resolved to do it? This is the question that no one has answered to my satisfaction, and its why I have no problem with what Xander said.

As a final (for now) note, it remains a peeve of mine that, when Becoming is the topic of conversation, its usually not about the overwhelmingly positive thing that Buffy did when she saved the world from being destroyed, but how personally devastating it was for her because she had to "kill" Angel. Screw the however many billions of lives that were saved, that she prevented hell from coming to Earth, what's really important is that that she lost Angel. And she continues to make it all about herself when she runs away from home instead of dealing with things. The way Xander was supposed to deal with things instead of being "spiteful and petty".

Xander has every right to dislike Angel, and yes Angel is petty and was jealous of Xander that doesn't mean I can't point out how Xander was petty and jealous of Angel from the very beginning, he was resentful of Angel when Angel didn't do anything to deserve that dislike besides be the object of Buffy's attraction. And he was going around helping the Scoobies giving Giles info.

I have no problem with Xander and his lie besides the fact that he said it came from Willow, though I have a hard time thinking he did it save the world. I think he wanted Angel dead and I don't care if he did, but the "lie" did not feel like he did it for the good of the world.

And yeah I think Buffy was resolved to kill Angel(let's not forget she did it to save the world)she went in with her all she was going to kill him she was determined, with or without that lie.

And Buffy has saved the world a lot, she's not doing something new to the viewers, the show is about Buffy not the billions she saves on a daily bases. Yeah I'm more inclined to care about Buffy's pain and devastation.

[Bitterswete]

My problem with Xander saying the lie is that like everything else he says about Angel was that it came across as a jealous teenager getting another chance to say something spiteful. Xander is completely biased against Angel so I really can't think his "lie" was some way to make sure Buffy stayed focused on killing Angel.

If Oz, Cordelia, Giles, or Willow said the "lie" I could genuinely think they were saying it to make sure she stayed focus but Xander doing it came off like everything he's ever said about Angel(even when Angel was helping the Scoobies)as just spiteful and a way to see Angel dead.

 

Xander disliking Angel personally and Xander genuinely worrying that telling Buffy about the spell would be a bad thing are not mutually exclusive concepts. Do I think Xander disliked Angel? Yes. But do I also think he genuinely decided telling Buffy about the spell could be a disaster? Also yes.

 

I guess if I really disliked Xander, I would've automatically seen his actions as being totally about spite. But, while not a huge Xander fan, I didn't loathe him either. So I guess I was able to see his actions more objectively, and to put myself in his shoes and think about what I would do in his place.

 

I guess I don't care who was there (Xander, Oz, Giles, Cordy, etc.). I think not telling Buffy about the spell was the right call. And Xander was the one in the position to make that call. The idea that it would've been okay for any other character but Xander to do what Xander did just doesn't compute with me.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Xander has every right to dislike Angel, and yes Angel is petty and was jealous of Xander that doesn't mean I can't point out how Xander was petty and jealous of Angel from the very beginning, he was resentful of Angel when Angel didn't do anything to deserve that dislike besides be the object of Buffy's attraction. And he was going around helping the Scoobies giving Giles info.

I have no problem with Xander and his lie besides the fact that he said it came from Willow, though I have a hard time thinking he did it save the world. I think he wanted Angel dead and I don't care if he did, but the "lie" did not feel like he did it for the good of the world.

And yeah I think Buffy was resolved to kill Angel(let's not forget she did it to save the world)she went in with her all she was going to kill him she was determined, with or without that lie.

And Buffy has saved the world a lot, she's not doing something new to the viewers, the show is about Buffy not the billions she saves on a daily bases. Yeah I'm more inclined to care about Buffy's pain and devastation.

A few things:

 

If you want to point out that Xander hated Angel, fine. I actually have no problem with that. I do, however, feel that its necessary to point out that Xander was sixteen years old when Captain Forehead started lurking around Buffy like a giant pedo. And then it turned out that he was actually a hundred and fifty year old corpse with a long trail of dead bodies behind him. I know, blah blah true love cakes, its still bizarre. So let's pretend that the whole pedo/serial killer vibe wasn't a thing. Beyond that, Angel was physically at least in his mid-twenties, if not his early thirties. I don;t think it was ever stated how old Liam was when he was turned, but I could be mistaken. So here's this twenty-five to thirty year old man being jealous of a high school boy because he gets to see Buffy in the daylight. And Xander[/ii] is the one with the problem? Even if it wasn't for the 'Ew' factor, which IMO is pretty high, why is it permissible for Angel to behave like such an infant and have it be considered romantic when Xander doing what most sixteen year old boys do when the girl they like likes someone else means he's being spiteful?

 

And it doesn't really answer my previous question about why she didn't kill Angelus at the factory to say that she was ready to kill him even if she had known the spell was being tried again. I wanted to know why she hadn't done it already if she was so focused and prepared, not whether she would have done it when she actually did.

 

As a related issue, and this is mean, I guess, but given what Buffy turned into by the end of the series I think it would have been beneficial if she had been a little less convinced that the world revolved around her pain and devastation. Season seven alone would have probably sucked exponentially less if she hadn't been wearing her own ass like a hat more often than not.

 

And I'm with Bitterswete, its a weird concept to say that if it had been anyone else other than Xander telling 'The Lie', it would have been okay. Isn't the dishonesty the important thing, or is it just the bearer of it that's the problem?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Jazzy24]

A few things:

If you want to point out that Xander hated Angel, fine. I actually have no problem with that. I do, however, feel that its necessary to point out that Xander was sixteen years old when Captain Forehead started lurking around Buffy like a giant pedo. And then it turned out that he was actually a hundred and fifty year old corpse with a long trail of dead bodies behind him. I know, blah blah true love cakes, its still bizarre. So let's pretend that the whole pedo/serial killer vibe wasn't a thing. Beyond that, Angel was physically at least in his mid-twenties, if not his early thirties. I don;t think it was ever stated how old Liam was when he was turned, but I could be mistaken. So here's this twenty-five to thirty year old man being jealous of a high school boy because he gets to see Buffy in the daylight. And Xander[/ii] is the one with the problem? Even if it wasn't for the 'Ew' factor, which IMO is pretty high, why is it permissible for Angel to behave like such an infant and have it be considered romantic when Xander doing what most sixteen year old boys do when the girl they like likes someone else means he's being spiteful?

And it doesn't really answer my previous question about why she didn't kill Angelus at the factory to say that she was ready to kill him even if she had known the spell was being tried again. I wanted to know why she hadn't done it already if she was so focused and prepared, not whether she would have done it when she actually did.

As a related issue, and this is mean, I guess, but given what Buffy turned into by the end of the series I think it would have been beneficial if she had been a little less convinced that the world revolved around her pain and devastation. Season seven alone would have probably sucked exponentially less if she hadn't been wearing her own ass like a hat more often than not.

And I'm with Bitterswete, its a weird concept to say that if it had been anyone else other than Xander telling 'The Lie', it would have been okay. Isn't the dishonesty the important thing, or is it just the bearer of it that's the problem?

1. I never said that it's acceptable for Angel to be petty and spiteful and Xander can't. I don't have a problem with how Xander feels towards Angel, nor do I dislike Xander because of it. I was saying that until the Angelus arc Xander never had any legit reasons to act the way he did. Xander is incapable of sympathizing with Buffy concerning Angel I completely understand her never talking to Xander about her relationship with Angel. In the episode Faith, Hope, and Trick when's she finally revels what happened when she killed Angel it's no wonder why Xander isn't there.

2. I don't know why Buffy didn't kill Angel at the factory but the world was at stake so I can understand her finally facing up to killing Angel and focusing on that. Her realizing that someone was about to open hell and billions about to die most likely shocked her into doing what she is suppose to cause she know that's the right thing to do. Though Buffy letting Angel continue to live as long as he did was wrong.

3. I can totally sympathize with Buffy and her pain, she just had to do something very hard and I doubt anybody had to kill the love of their life to save the world, I can forgive her for doing some self-pitying and being selfish. Should she have thought of her mother, Giles, and friends yes but I can understand her pain she wanted to get away from it all. She wanted to be left alone I don't blame her at all. Though she did become a self-absorbing unfeeling shell in season 7.

4. I never said if anybody else said the lie it would have been okay. I said I don't believe that Xander said it for the sole purpose of keeping Buffy focused, I said if Giles, Cordelia, Oz, or Willow said the "lie" I would believe it did come from their desire for Buffy to stay focused. Yeah I don't doubt Xander wanted Buffy to stay focus but I also can believe that that "lie" came from the selfish part of him that wanted to see Angel dead regardless of what Willow was trying to do. Nor do I really care that he told the "lie" I wish he had kept Willow out if it.

[DigitalCount]

Talk about being late to the party.

I have to say, I'm amused that apparently what Xander told Buffy is considered a significant enough point of contention that it has a title and definite article. I do think that his bias was on display, but of the three compromised characters (Buffy/Giles/Xander) his was the bias least responsible for nearly ending the world. If anything, Buffy and Giles deserve more scorn for creating a situation in which lying to them would assist in saving the world rather than the opposite.

Other thoughts:

- I feel bad for slagging on Kendra's accent now (my parents are both West Indian and holy crap) but she did have a strong death. I was surprised Dru's mojo worked on her.

- Speaking of accents, what the flying fornication is David Boreanaz doing in those flashbacks?

- Speaking of things DB is bad at, the swordfight was great right until he goes to deliver a savage backhand slash to Buffy's legs and pauses to let SMG (or her double) have time to bring down her sword. It's a pretty glaring pause. A fencer, he ain't.

- This was probably the first time I enjoyed James Marsters as Spike. When the twosome showed up initially, I found them obnoxious, poorly acted, broadly written to the point of parody, and they couldn't do accents either. But every beat of this episode for him was solid, and I especially liked his reunion with Joyce. 

- For her part, Joyce annoyed me this episode. Not because she was being unreasonable, but because she was one of two characters that really revealed the man behind the curtain. Despite Joss Whedon's overly precious dialogue, I'm not taken out of the story all that often. With Joyce and Principal Snyder, the story felt more plot-driven than not, and I got bored by what should have been more emotional. 

[inkworks]

I first watched this episode when I was 13 and I hated Xander's guts for his "kick his ass" comment.

It always seemed to me that it came from a place of jealousy and spite.

I rewatched the episode last night and I really haven't changed my mind.

Xander knew fine well what he was doing and I think that's made pretty clear by the look on his face at the end of the episode.

When Willow hopefully says "maybe Angel was saved and they want to be alone together" the camera cuts to Xander looking very guilty.

Would it have made a difference? Probably not. Although you could argue that it would have made Buffy extra motiviated to keep Angel away from Acathla.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I first watched this episode when I was 13 and I hated Xander's guts for his "kick his ass" comment.

I just got to this episode, and I hate Xander. I thought maybe by this point he would have some redeemable qualities, but nope. He's just a loud jerk.

Quote

 Speaking of accents, what the flying fornication is David Boreanaz doing in those flashbacks?

Yeah, I don't know. I thought the flashbacks were really disappointing and boring.

Spike and Buffy's mom sitting in the living room was one of the funniest and most awkward scenes I'm seen from a show in a while.

Edited December 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[mrspidey]

On 15.12.2016 at 1:35 PM, inkworks said:

I first watched this episode when I was 13 and I hated Xander's guts for his "kick his ass" comment.

It always seemed to me that it came from a place of jealousy and spite.

I rewatched the episode last night and I really haven't changed my mind.

Yeah, same here. Still hate him for it and the backlash much later in Selfless should've been more impactful than 3 seconds of Willow being upset. 

I mean forget Angel, this isn't even about him. Xander got in between Willow's and Buffy's friendship and turned Willows message on his head, most likely not for altruistic reasons but because of that damn hate boner he has for Angel. You just don't do that amongst friends.

Hell, maybe this lie was one of the reasons Buffy left Sunnydale after the fight instead of talking to Willow , so Xander should have even less reason to bitch about that in DMP. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by mrspidey

[Smad]

On 27.1.2017 at 0:14 AM, mrspidey said:

I mean forget Angel, this isn't even about him. Xander got in between Willow's and Buffy's friendship and turned Willows message on his head, most likely not for altruistic reasons but because of that damn hate boner he has for Angel. You just don't do that amongst friends.

Hell, maybe this lie was one of the reasons Buffy left Sunnydale after the fight instead of talking to Willow , so Xander should have even less reason to bitch about that in DMP. 

I hate that habit of Xander's. My main issue about the lie has always been that he put words into Willow's mouth she never even said. And I always think that maybe Buffy wouldn't have left town if she knew there was at least still someone there despite everything that happened.

Xander did the same thing in Season 3's Revelations. He was pissed at Buffy so he wanted to get back at her by getting rid of Angel and he used Faith, who didn't know all the facts because she wasn't there the year before, as his weapon. This (coupled with Buffy's reluctance to talk about Angel in general with Faith, the group excluding her from meetings) was the beginning of the mistrust, her distance from the group and eventual down slide of Faith's. And neither Xander himself nor the show ever holds him responsible.

[mrspidey]

Yeah, I watched Revelations last night. It's pretty much the same bullshit again, except this time, he almost gets people killed. And what does he get in the end? Not even a slap on the wrist. No. Instead, Buffy has to act all understanding and apolegetic. Ugh...

Edited January 30, 2017 by mrspidey

[inkworks]

What if Willow had lost her soul instead of Angel. Would Xander be as quick to want her dead? 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Xander did the same thing in Season 3's Revelations. He was pissed at Buffy so he wanted to get back at her by getting rid of Angel and he used Faith, who didn't know all the facts because she wasn't there the year before, as his weapon. This (coupled with Buffy's reluctance to talk about Angel in general with Faith, the group excluding her from meetings) was the beginning of the mistrust, her distance from the group and eventual down slide of Faith's. And neither Xander himself nor the show ever holds him responsible.

Yes, Xander is a real monster for thinking that the Slayer without any personal connection to Angel might be a little more impartial than Buffy in that situation. Also, you are making it sound as if Xander had some cunning plan to eliminate Angel instead of merely venting in front of Faith and later even trying to dissuade her from acting rashly . Buffy and Giles dropped the ball much more than Xander did in regards to Faith's reasons for feeling as an outsider but, of course, the narrative blamed it all on Wesley for some reason.

Quote

What if Willow had lost her soul instead of Angel. Would Xander be as quick to want her dead? 

Well, since we saw that nobody suggested that Vamp!Willow be killed in Doppelgangland (which was extremely irresponsible of them, if you ask me) the answer seems to be clearly no. Hardly surprising that someone would be less willing to see their childhood friend dead than the guy who dates a friend of his, though.

Quote

I mean forget Angel, this isn't even about him. Xander got in between Willow's and Buffy's friendship and turned Willows message on his head, most likely not for altruistic reasons but because of that damn hate boner he has for Angel. You just don't do that amongst friends.

That only works if Xander had a crystal ball and knew Buffy would somehow believe Willow would say "kick his ass" and then cast the spell anyway and that Buffy would not confront Willow about it until years later. At the time the most logical consequence would have been for Buffy to blame Xander, not Willow.

As for this being the reason for Buffy leaving Sunnydale, first of all after seeing the spell was cast it would have been pretty obvious who lied. Second of all, it was a moot point anyway because Buffy couldn't get to Angel before he pulled out the sword. If Xander had not said anything the result would have been exactly the same. Which isn't to say Buffy had no right to be angry at Xander, mind you, but personally I don't think this was much of a factor in her leaving.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Jack Shaftoe

[Smad]

9 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Yes, Xander is a real monster for thinking that the Slayer without any personal connection to Angel might be a little more impartial than Buffy in that situation. Also, you are making it sound as if Xander had some cunning plan to eliminate Angel instead of merely venting in front of Faith and later even trying to dissuade her from acting rashly . Buffy and Giles dropped the ball much more than Xander did in regards to Faith's reasons for feeling as an outsider but, of course, the narrative blamed it all on Wesley for some reason.

I'm not going around this corner again. The way NB chose to play both the pool scene and the later library scene is what leads me to my opinion. Clearly you see it differently. Doesn't mean you are right and I'm wrong. Oh and btw don't put words in my mouth. Nowhere in my post did I call Xander a monster.

[formerlyfreedom]

Folks, the site rule is to be civil to each other. If you cannot do that, warnings and/or suspensions may be in order. It's okay to have different opinions.

[SparedTurkey]

For a few reasons, I'm not a fan of Xander and the 'Kick his Ass' comment.

1) I'm not sure he had the impartial state of mind to make a call that Buffy would be weaker if she knew Willow was trying the spell again. Considering their "love" for each other, I think there was a fairly good shot (like 50% and above) it may have bucked her up even more and she may have fought even harder to stop him opening Acathla (especially considering she did stick a sword in him once the portal was open, soul and all, Xander's possible fear wasn't even realised)

2) Perhaps knowing she had some support from her friends, for the one course of action she hoped for, again could have bucked her up or at least could have helped her realise she did have support and not run away. She may have even stayed with Willow considering her mother kicked her out for something she couldn't help.

3) Even Xander knew it was wrong otherwise he wouldn't have kept it secret for years. In the months when Buffy had left he never thought maybe it could be related?

I just don't agree that a leader, that everyone has decided is the leader, shouldn't be told all pertinent information. If you've decided they are your leader, that's it. Xander made a choice and it was the wrong one.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

3) Even Xander knew it was wrong otherwise he wouldn't have kept it secret for years. In the months when Buffy had left he never thought maybe it could be related?

I just don't agree that a leader, that everyone has decided is the leader, shouldn't be told all pertinent information. If you've decided they are your leader, that's it.

Why Xander kept it a secret is an interesting question but the answer probably is the same meta-answer that we need to give to the question why Buffy never bothered to ask Willow why she apparently changed her mind and did the spell. Namely that Joss didn't want any more controversy on that topic.

As for giving the leader all pertinent information, at that point Buffy had been unable to do her duty in regards to Angel for months. As a result of that dozens of people, quite possibly even hundreds, were murdered. Buffy's reason for that is perfectly understandable, don't get me wrong, having to be the executioner of someone love is asking way too much of anyone, let alone a teenager, but on other hand the fate of the whole world was hanging in the balance. Let's not forget that Xander didn't know that Spike had switched sides, as far as he knew it was three powerful vampires plus their minions against Buffy. Telling Buffy to stall for time and hope for the best might have been the proper thing for a friend to do but as far as saving the world goes it wouldn't have been the best idea, IMO. She had tried stalling for time in Becoming I and the results were disastrous.

Also, it bears mentioning that Willow had never cast a spell of that magnitude and for all anyone knew at the time Jenny's reconstruction of the curse spell might have been unsuccessful.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Jack Shaftoe

[SparedTurkey]

5 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Telling Buffy to stall for time and hope for the best might have been the proper thing for a friend to do but as far as saving the world goes it wouldn't have been the best idea, IMO. She had tried stalling for time in Becoming I and the results were disastrous.

Also, it bears mentioning that Willow had never cast a spell of that magnitude and for all anyone knew at the time Jenny's reconstruction of the curse spell might have been unsuccessful.

I'm not saying she should have been told to stall him. Or that she should have on the off chance Willow could do it especially given she knew it wasn't a sure thing the first time. Essentially, Xander decided he got to send her into battle alone, facing as far as he knew, 3 powerful vamps and their many minion, like you said. Now she wasn't getting offered support from her 'team'. Considering the emphasis on family this show promotes with the Scoobies, they pretty much sent her out alone. If nothing else, knowing one other person was actively trying to help could have helped her during the fight, or the aftermath of it. I disagree that it is something you should do to either a friend or someone you have appointed as your leader (rather shows a patronising lack of confidence in her abilities). Maybe Xander didn't realise how damaging that lie could be but still not a necessary lie.

Joss did bring it back up several years later when the controversy over this line had been going on awhile though...suggests it was meant to be something hidden to me.

[Dee]

Didn't Joss himself say 'Kick His Ass' was a tactical decision, and nothing more, in an interview?

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Didn't Joss himself say 'Kick His Ass' was a tactical decision, and nothing more, in an interview?

He did. Mind you, I believe in the "Death of the Author" school of interpretation, but that's what Joss said.

Quote

I'm not saying she should have been told to stall him. Or that she should have on the off chance Willow could do it especially given she knew it wasn't a sure thing the first time. Essentially, Xander decided he got to send her into battle alone, facing as far as he knew, 3 powerful vamps and their many minion, like you said.

What do you mean, "Xander decided"? He had a broken arm and Buffy insisted that he concentrate on saving Giles. This didn't make a whole lot of sense, IMO, considering what was at stake but it wasn't really Xander's decision. I don't see how Buffy could possibly have reached the conclusion "my friends left me on my own" since she wanted only Xander's help in this particular fight and he was there. It's not like she had been counting on Willow trying the spell as a crucial element of her plan and Xander got in the way of that.

[Smad]

11 hours ago, Dee said:

Didn't Joss himself say 'Kick His Ass' was a tactical decision, and nothing more, in an interview?

Yes, and if the line had been spoken by Giles, for example, I would have agreed with it. Giles is a bigger picture kind of guy. Xander is not, he's too emotional for that, especially in the early Seasons. Xander shares one thing with Buffy when it comes to Angel. Neither can see straight where Angel is concerned. Which is why that whole excuse from Whedon doesn't work for me.

But again my biggest problem with his lie has always been how he takes it upon himself to misrepresent Willow. Which is never ok in my book.

[SparedTurkey]

10 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

What do you mean, "Xander decided"?

I mean, as said before, Xander decided to NOT tell her Willow was trying the spell and decided all she needed to hear was "Kick his ass". My point is that was a unilateral decision to not tell his leader, who was attempting to save the world, all possible information about the situation. I'm not saying that she was alone during the fight. I'm saying that if she knew there was one person who she knew was doing everything they could to get Angel back to her, perhaps she wouldn't have run and it wouldn't have festered like it did (which I am taking that it did, considering it was brought up seasons later). Especially considering she did stab him, soul and all. And whatever Joss said or not about it being a tactical decision, from the story it did fester and Xander himself thought it was wrong because he never brought it up until it was.

For what it is worth, if the 'Kick his ass' had been said by Giles or Oz, I'd likely have a similar approach. I think if it had of come from Cordelia, who had no stake in anyone Angelus had killed or maimed (i.e. Jenny or Willow) I'd be less inclined to argue because she would be more impartial about the whole situation. But Xander had hated Angel from the beginning, because he 'loved' Buffy, was the 'Nice Guy' and his childhood friend had been hurt, so it doesn't appear to me as a tactical decision in the way it was perhaps supposed to.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

I'm saying that if she knew there was one person who she knew was doing everything they could to get Angel back to her, perhaps she wouldn't have run and it wouldn't have festered like it did

I would argue that based on what we actually saw on our screen, there was no festering, that's pure S7 retcon. The Lie (tm) is, in my opinion, a complete and utter non-factor in the relations between Buffy, Willow and Xander from Becoming II to Selfless. If the Lie (tm) had bothered Buffy in any way she would have confronted Willow or Xander in DMP or Revelations. She didn't, on the contrary, she remained very close with Willow and to a slightly lesser extent Xandеr. Was that a particularly elegant way of resolving the issue? Not at all but I think it's much better than what happened in Selfless.

[SparedTurkey]

16 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I would argue that based on what we actually saw on our screen, there was no festering, that's pure S7 retcon

So because it was brought up in a season that apparently no one likes it doesn't count? Well jeez, I guess I was wrong then and will ignore what the show says. But Buffy didn't run away for no reason.

Festering is what it sounds like and doesn't always resolve itself in seconds, minutes or years. Sometimes things linger, even without you recognising it. And I don't think this is something tiny. I never said it drove a long-term massively obvious wedge between them either. But if it was nothing - why bother to bring it up? Years later? Can't have it both ways. Unless I should be forgetting it was because its one of the seasons that doesn't matter

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

So because it was brought up in a season that apparently no one likes it doesn't count?

No, I don't count it because it makes no sense on a character level and yes, the season had other retcons that are indisputable, like Spike's claims that the Initiative repeatedly gave him drugs and he knew what the chip in his head would do even before he escaped even though that's not at all what we saw in S4.

Quote

But Buffy didn't run away for no reason.

Well, yes, she had plenty of reasons to run away, like her mother telling her not to come back home or the police looking for her. In itself, this doesn't prove anything about whether the Lie (tm) was a contributing factor or not.

Quote

But if it was nothing - why bother to bring it up? Years later?

Because Drew Greenberg is shitty writer who piled up silly parallels with Becoming in Selfless even though the situations were only superficially similar? That same episode Buffy (and Xander too, by the way) also conveniently forgot that she really didn't need to kill Anya if the goal was not to punish her but to stop her from doing any more harm with her vengeance demon powers. If tomorrow Joss decides that Xander has hated Buffy all along for not saving Jesse or for her stupid plan leading to Anya's death or something like that for which there has never been any indication in the actual show I would call bullshit on that on that too. Is it possible that things have been festering between Buffy and Willow for years? Technically, yes. But when a writer doesn't do his homework and instead pulls things out of thin air, well, my suspension of disbelief is shattered.

[SparedTurkey]

10 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

No, I don't count it because it makes no sense on a character level

I don't see the point in continuing this if we just cherry pick what we want or put it down to a bad writer. As said, I don't think Xander lied for any kind of noble reason and shouldn't have done it. He primarily did it because he is a Nice Guy. I didn't say Buffy only ran away because of the lie - I earlier referred to her mother's crap decision. As said, I think the lie did make her feel alone, likely contributed to her running away and did linger. Which I choose to believe given it is referenced later, shitty writer or no.

But at this point, we'd just be going around in circles if it continues.

[Zeenna]

You know, Xander does deserve getting the crap beaten out of him. I've recently have gone back to see Buffy again. And I can't stand Xander. Let's be honest, if any regular guy said or did the crap he did irl, he'd be labeled crazy stalker guy. He did what he did because he was jealous of the fact that Angel got the one thing he never was able to do with Buffy. He wanted Angel dead, plain and simple. 

And as for Buffy not being able to do her job?!!?I'll admit, I find it rather patronizing to hear that Buffy wouldn't be capable of fighting as well while knowing that Willow was doing the curse. What's the basis for this? Is it cause Buffy's a girl, and girls naturally can't handle stuff like that? Is it because Buffy angsts sometimes? Has Buffy failed to avert an apocalypse at any point because of her pesky emotional attachments?

 As it plays out, look at the lapse between Angel getting his soul back during the fight and Buffy actually killing him. It literally throws her. She hesitates. She takes a damn long time to actually kill him. And that's dangerous.

It takes that long because she wasn't prepared. She didn't know that getting her Angel back was a possibility in that fight. And, fortunately, Buffy gets her head together to kill him when needed (Huh? What? Buffy gets her head together? Ridiculous!). But, tactically, it would have been better if she had known that that eventuality might have happened.

Because preparation = less time to get her head together = quicker killing = possible difference between End of the World and Yay! World!

No, Xander wasn't making a tactical decision. He wasn't even making a tactically sound decision. He was making an emotionally-based decision because he thought Angel should be killed. And that emotion overruled his common sense in giving Buffy some essential knowledge for the fight.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

You know, Xander does deserve getting the crap beaten out of him. I've recently have gone back to see Buffy again. And I can't stand Xander. Let's be honest, if any regular guy said or did the crap he did irl, he'd be labeled crazy stalker guy.

Funny you should say that considering Angel fits the definition of a "stalker guy" far better. Does he deserve to get the crap beaten out of him?

Quote

And as for Buffy not being able to do her job?!!?I'll admit, I find it rather patronizing to hear that Buffy wouldn't be capable of fighting as well while knowing that Willow was doing the curse. What's the basis for this?

The fact that hundreds, if not thousands of people, died because Buffy kicked Angel in the crotch in Innocence instead of staking him? Or her being played like fiddle by Angel in the previous episode, resulting in Kendra's death, Giles's kidnapping and torture and the injuries of Willow and Xander. Don't get me wrong, what Buffy had to do was a terrible burden that nobody should ever have to face. Which is precisely why it's natural for other characters to have doubts that she can do what has to be done no matter how hard it is every single time.

Quote

Has Buffy failed to avert an apocalypse at any point because of her pesky emotional attachments?

If it weren't for Giles resisting torture heroically for so long this is exactly what would have happened in Becoming. We, the viewers know things will work out in the end, the characters don't have that luxury. Would you take any risks with the fate of the entire world just to increase the very slim chance of saving someone you don't really like? I am honest enough to admit that I wouldn't and that's why I don't begrudge Xander for doing the same.

Quote

 As it plays out, look at the lapse between Angel getting his soul back during the fight and Buffy actually killing him. It literally throws her. She hesitates. She takes a damn long time to actually kill him. And that's dangerous.

The chance of the spell working at that particular moment was extremely small.

Quote

And, fortunately, Buffy gets her head together to kill him when needed (Huh? What? Buffy gets her head together? Ridiculous!).

Buffy didn't kill Angel [/nitpick]. And in any event, her being able to kill him when the alternative was a literal hell on earth was never in doubt (well, until that stupid episode called The Gift when Giles claimed heroes like Buffy can't possibly do that but let's not digress). The problem was whether she would be able to kill him if she believed he could be "cured" without literal hell on earth following that.

Quote

No, Xander wasn't making a tactical decision.

I usually hate playing this card but Joss Whedon disagrees. But, regardless of that, I don't see how this was essential information. The chance of Willow - a novice witch - pulling off  the casting of a highly complicated spell (which Jenny might have restored wrongly for all Willow knew, by the way)  from her hospital bed was very small. The chance of this happening right in the middle of the fight was also very small. The chance of Buffy going all "Well, he must be faking it, better behead him anyway" was rather small too, IMO. So, all in all, hardly an eventuality Xander should have given much thought. As far as he knew it was two very powerful vampires and their henchmen against Buffy and a broken-arm Xander. Any and all distractions for Buffy could have meant the end of the world. Her being distracted by the spell working was arguably a far, far less likely scenario than her being distracted while stalling for time waiting for the spell to kick in - as in the previous episode.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Jack Shaftoe