Book 2: Dragonfly in Amber

[WatchrTina]

My re-read of DIA continues and I hit the visit to Jamie's grandfather a couple of nights ago.  Damn that part of the book is infuriating.  First the old fox tries to claim Jamie's men as his own, then we find out the men of Lallybroch are imprisoned in the Tollgate.

So, just a wee question . . . how DOES the old fox know the names of Jamie's men?  He includes them all on the list of men HE is sending to the Prince.  But they didn't travel with Jamie & Claire to Lord Lovet's castle -- they're supposed to be quietly deserting and heading back to Lallybroch (failing utterly).  Who told Lord Lovet their names?  Things that make you go "Hmmmmmm."

[auntlada]

I don't know, but if there is a historical figure who could have done it, it's Lord Lovat.

[Kim0820]

On 10/1/2014 at 3:32 PM, Firebunny said:

I wonder if Claire and Jamie's attempts in Paris to stop the war from ever happening condemned the Scots.  If they hadn't stopped that booze shipment Prince Charles was going to make so much money on, perhaps he would have been able to get other supporters and been better able to equip his army.

Maybe Jamie was right - they should have tried to help the rebellion rather than prevent it.  Seems like it might have been easier.  They didn't know BPC.  But once his religious obsession became apparent, it seems it would have been better to try to help him win.  He didn't care about the odds against him since God's will was for him, in his mind. 

On 10/1/2014 at 11:09 PM, bluebonnet said:

I always felt very conflicted about Claire being so adamant that Jamie do nothing to Jack.  She knew that Mary Hawkins was the required ingredient to the Frank mix but she never really scrutinized what it would mean to subject someone like Mary to someone like Jack.  Of course, it eventually became a moot point, but still until it became moot, Claire was certain that Mary would have to marry Jack and she was also certain of what type of creature Jack was.  There's a self-protection element in there.  If Frank didn't exist, what happens to Claire?  Yet Claire's thoughts never went beyond just thinking about Frank's existence somewhere in time.  I think the Mary/Jack thing was the first time I really experienced a dislike for Claire.  

Frank had existed without Claire's help before she time traveled, so she could have trusted to fate.  BJR was not subject to anyone wanting him dead; without Claire, Jamie would not have made the deal with BJR and gotten tortured and raped.  Thus it was Claire's presence that caused the rape/torture.  Come to think of it, the person whose life was most affected by Claire's time travel was Jamie.  He wouldn't have been in Paris and wouldn't have been raped by BJR without having met and married Claire.

 

[Cdh20]

3 hours ago, Kim0820 said:

 

Frank had existed without Claire's help before she time traveled, so she could have trusted to fate.  BJR was not subject to anyone wanting him dead; without Claire, Jamie would not have made the deal with BJR and gotten tortured and raped.  Thus it was Claire's presence that caused the rape/torture.  Come to think of it, the person whose life was most affected by Claire's time travel was Jamie.  He wouldn't have been in Paris and wouldn't have been raped by BJR without having met and married Claire.

 

Jamie might not have survived his dislocated shoulder(101), & been left behind then, if it weren't for Claire! It's a time travel show, but it's also about Jamie & Claire's destiny to be together, IMO.

[auntlada]

12 hours ago, Kim0820 said:

Maybe Jamie was right - they should have tried to help the rebellion rather than prevent it.  Seems like it might have been easier.  They didn't know BPC.  But once his religious obsession became apparent, it seems it would have been better to try to help him win.  He didn't care about the odds against him since God's will was for him, in his mind. 

Frank had existed without Claire's help before she time traveled, so she could have trusted to fate.  BJR was not subject to anyone wanting him dead; without Claire, Jamie would not have made the deal with BJR and gotten tortured and raped.  Thus it was Claire's presence that caused the rape/torture.  Come to think of it, the person whose life was most affected by Claire's time travel was Jamie.  He wouldn't have been in Paris and wouldn't have been raped by BJR without having met and married Claire.

 

In my theory of time travel, Claire was destined to go back because (spoilered because I can't remember which book contains what now)

Spoiler

Geillis had gone back from a later time to an earlier time to try to help the Rising succeed. Claire and Jamie had to do what they did because the Rising was not supposed to succeed.

 

[SassAndSnacks]

Last month, amidst pandemic stress, I went back through the stones for a third go-round through all of the books.  I've noticed that each time I read through,  I pick up on new things, which is so exciting.  I shared my thoughts on Book 1 (love it!) on the Favorite Book Scenes Thread.

I started Book 2 right away, and admittedly, this one has always been tougher for me.  The opening of it is like a punch in the gut, with the reader knowing immediately that something went down.  20 FREAKING YEARS!!!!  I know, it's critical to the story, but Herself almost lost me there during my first round of reading.  I'm one of those people that absolutely hates it when Jamie and Claire are apart, so I find myself rifling through any sections/chapters where they are separated.  As a whole, this book is most difficult for me (and Season 2 of the show was, as well) because I feel like we are racing toward an impending doom.  It makes me anxious and sad. We start right off knowing that something happened and they aren't together anymore, and I always feel that lurking over me as I read through it. 

I read through this particular thread ages ago and gave it a skim last week, just to refresh myself on the thoughts of others.  I agree with so many of you.  

I'm currently 75% of the way through, and it's really not my favorite.  I'm enjoying it less than I did my previous two reads.  I'm a Claire fangirl, and she annoyed me all through Paris. She came across as sanctimonious, belittling, and frankly whiney.  Disclosure - I freaking can't stand Frank, so her woe-is-me-must-save-someone-who-hasn't-been-born-yet-even-if-it-causes-my-beloved-current-husband-undue-post-traumatic-stress bit really grated on me.  Also, I loathe, LOATHE, L-O-A-T-H-E (apparently, I like hyphens tonight) the scene where Jamie comes home with bite marks from Madame Elise's.  Unnecessary.  

But mostly, I hate how Jamie is consistently forced back into the orbit of BJR.  It's weird and tropey.  I get that it's a plot point, and Herself needed to increase the hatred and tension...but did she REALLY need to increase the hatred and tension?  Pretty sure there was a lot of that floating around between them already.  Jamie has a line when they're in Paris - "I can stand a lot! But just because I can does that mean I must? Do I have to bear everyone's weakness? Can I not have my own?" - that I think simply encapsulates his existence in this book and most of the next, and its really heartbreaking.

The gang is in Edinburgh right now.  Colum just kicked it.  And BJR is back...again...

I will say that the time spent in Lallybroch here is so beautiful and is some of the best writing of the series.  I would read an entire 9 book series of Jamie and Claire digging through the dirt, planting potatoes, delivering babies, training horses, etc, which is why I enjoy Books 5 & 6 so much.  I love them having a peaceful life together.  

Edited May 7, 2020 by SassAndSnacks

[Cdh20]

I agree about the book and the season having a sadness as we know what is coming when we get to the end . We are hoping but it was given away.

I think though for non book readers episode  201 set in 1948  was better done than having the book start in 1968, or I may have cried through 13 episodes knowing it’s 20 freaking years. 20 years - ugh! It makes sense because she had to raise a kid, but I didn’t know it was going to be 20 yrs. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Cdh20

[Kim0820]

On 5/6/2020 at 11:23 AM, Cdh20 said:

Jamie might not have survived his dislocated shoulder(101), & been left behind then, if it weren't for Claire! It's a time travel show, but it's also about Jamie & Claire's destiny to be together, IMO.

Yes:  she said when he was suicidal that she couldn't make any sense of why she time traveled except that it must have been meant for them - that they would meet and fall in love, otherwise it made no sense to her.  So she would die right there with him.  That was a powerful scene. 

On 5/6/2020 at 7:41 PM, auntlada said:

In my theory of time travel, Claire was destined to go back because (spoilered because I can't remember which book contains what now)

  Hide contents

Geillis had gone back from a later time to an earlier time to try to help the Rising succeed. Claire and Jamie had to do what they did because the Rising was not supposed to succeed.

Spoiler

I understand from the discussions that they go and fight in the American Revolution.  We might still be British subjects if not for Claire.  🙂  

 

 

On 5/6/2020 at 11:30 PM, SassAndSnacks said:

I started Book 2 right away, and admittedly, this one has always been tougher for me.  The opening of it is like a punch in the gut, with the reader knowing immediately that something went down.  

As a whole, this book is most difficult for me (and Season 2 of the show was, as well) because I feel like we are racing toward an impending doom.  It makes me anxious and sad. We start right off knowing that something happened and they aren't together anymore, and I always feel that lurking over me as I read through it. 

I read through this particular thread ages ago and gave it a skim last week, just to refresh myself on the thoughts of others.  I agree with so many of you.  

I will say that the time spent in Lallybroch here is so beautiful and is some of the best writing of the series.  I would read an entire 9 book series of Jamie and Claire digging through the dirt, planting potatoes, delivering babies, training horses, etc, which is why I enjoy Books 5 & 6 so much.  I love them having a peaceful life together.  

Yes, Culloden pending the whole time.  As the story goes on, it is known that they will be slaughtered there.  At least Jamie gets to kill BJR there.  

It was a gut punch at the beginning.  Claire crying when she learned for sure she was back (well, the car was enough, but the guy confirmed the year for her that she had not just come back to the same moment she had left) and then that the battle of Culloden had been lost - very effective.  Like she had just been told Jamie had died in the battle.  

[toolazy]

4 hours ago, Kim0820 said:

Yes:  she said when he was suicidal that she couldn't make any sense of why she time traveled except that it must have been meant for them - that they would meet and fall in love, otherwise it made no sense to her.  So she would die right there with him.  That was a powerful scene. 

 

Yes, Culloden pending the whole time.  As the story goes on, it is known that they will be slaughtered there.  At least Jamie gets to kill BJR there.  

It was a gut punch at the beginning.  Claire crying when she learned for sure she was back (well, the car was enough, but the guy confirmed the year for her that she had not just come back to the same moment she had left) and then that the battle of Culloden had been lost - very effective.  Like she had just been told Jamie had died in the battle.  

I hate hate hate that bit in the show when she asks that guy about Culloden.  It was needless exposition for casual viewers, I think.  

[SassAndSnacks]

I just finished my re-read of this, and the end simply guts me. Check that, this whole damn book guts me. 

So many things about this one annoy me and make me dislike the story, but it’s like DG senses that and throws something magical in there right when I’m cursing the whole bloody thing. I already mentioned my love for the Lallybroch chapters but the chapter on Prestonpans is absolutely brilliant. Yes, I will continue to put up with crap like the Old Fox just to get to the heartbreaking beauty of the farewell at the stones with Culloden pending. I will continue to exasperate my way through the boring-ass search for Gillian Edgars to make it to the final scene of Roger quietly telling her that Jamie escaped. 

I’ve mentioned before how with each re-read, new passages, details, and feelings jump out at me. I didn’t remember feeling this way during the previous reads, but this time I really felt Jamie’s desperation after killing Dougal. The frantic signing of the deed, hurrying Claire to the stones, the precious time at the cabin, the pregnancy revelation (sob!) all left me breathless and anxious and I KNOW well enough by now what goes down and that it eventually will be ok. It still left me so bereft and exhausted.

Also, Book Roger is far superior to Show Roger. Imagine what Rik Rankin could do if Roger had been written as this character for the show! And Bree, ugh. Still a no from me. Petulant, whiney, clearly spent too much time with Frank, blah.

I’m off to Book 3 now, where Bree will still be insufferable, I’ll continue to loathe Frank, the Helwater section will again be skipped, and I’ll read at a breakneck speed to visit a certain print shop.