Only Speculation Without Spoilers In the Thread

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, ofmd said:

Regarding the ticket... Are we sure it's really Loretta's bus ticket? Could it be someone else's? Maxine? Donna? No idea what that would mean, but maybe someone else is being 'switched' here (for us, to confuse us), not babies.

 

I don't think there is any confirmation of that. The ticket date doesn't line up with either child being a baby and at some point Ben's family would have also come to NYC, so it doesn't have to be hers.

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I can't imagine why it would be and how it wouldn't easily be checked. The cliche would be Ben pretending to be younger a la Baby June in Gypsy, but he's not a vaudeville star doing a baby act. He'd be judged more on the age he looked than his birth certificate. Charles worked with him briefly when he was 8, and at that age he's not going to be able to pretend to be three years older. Three years is a really long time when you're a kid. The only reason he might need to be older is if he needed to not be a minor to do sex stuff or something like that, but by then he was already a long working actor.

Plus from what we've seen everything Dickie said lines up with him being the adopted child and feeling like he was in Ben's shadow. If he was really the bio kid it seems like it would make him feel more entitled in his resentment. 

I'm not devoted to the idea, but if he was five it would have made sense that his behavior would put Charles off and cause him to get fired, maybe acting younger than his supposed years. Some kids are a lot bigger physically than others. I grew up in a large (possibly hulking) group and sometimes I see groups of six graders that look like they are second graders to me. 

In any case, that Loretta mothering the wrong brother would be a good twist, we can probably agree on that. 

[cardigirl]

Just musing along. 

With the idea that Ben is actually Loretta's child, and Dickie was the miracle baby born afterwards, Ben would have to play younger than he was, which was mentioned when he talked about playing his role in Girl Cop, he was 31 playing 17, supposedly. 

So ... if Ben was adopted and named Richard initially, but later became the actor with a future, it's possible that his name was switched, to protect the family from ...  his bio parents from showing up?

Maybe that's what Loretta meant by she was too far into this?

The date discrepancies, the thought that the "big city director" that was implicated as Loretta's child's father looks a lot like Ben, and the oinking noises Loretta AND Ben made.   

Also the meta joke that Paul Rudd is ageless. 

And wondering why Ben told Loretta he knew a snake when he saw one. (Oh, that was probably because she was convincing Dickie to leave him. That happened before the poisoning.) 

With regards to the photo in the letter update, it's just the mother and the two boys, one a toddler and one an infant, and honestly, I wouldn't recognize either adult Ben or adult Dickie from that picture. And we were only told of the one update. Possibly there were more. She knew the name of the family so when a Glenroy started getting famous, possibly her antennae was attuned. And then she assumed that Dickie was the son she gave up, because the family had made that the story. 

LONGSHOT, I know.  And I'm never right about anything. I didn't even guess that Jan was the killer in series 1 as I was so wrapped up in thinking Tim's murder had something to do with his backstory with the "Hardy Boys" group. 

Thanks for reading. LOL.

[ofmd]

I'm often wrong, too! And I didn't think it was Jan because it seemed too obvious, too early... LOL.

Anyway, I did rewatch the first minutes of episode 1, when Loretta (presumably) is introduced. I vaguely remembered that several times we see the young girl/ woman only from behind, or from her neck downwards, which is true, so I'm wondering if they snuck in the "introduction" of another woman.

At first we have the little girl in the theater (1962, Gooseberry!), then short scenes of her in a ballet studio/ an older girl in the same place (only from behind)/ a young woman entering a casting agency, highlighting a script/ in front of a mirror etc., all only from behind or from the neck down, until we see Loretta entering the stage. Not sure if that means anything. Always blonde. I seemed to remember one of the scenes was a red-haired girl, or maybe that was another flashback.

Notably, after she finishes her monologue, when Oliver says "Where have you been?" and she hyperventilates (LOL), the voiceover says dramatically:

But when you finally land your dream, your moment in that spotlight, how far would you go to hang on to it?

Now, from all we know about Loretta, that doesn't sound like her motivation at all, even if she is the culprit of the murder or the attempted murder. She might ofc have us all fooled, and her only objective is to cling to that dream, now it is in reach so late in her life, but idk... The idea is they are talking about another woman, but I don't think it fits anyone else. Maxine is out bc of skin color. (A critic as a failed actor would have made sense.)

Hmmm... I must check out Donna's unhinged (and very well acted) theater obsession speech again... Does anyone remember which episode that was in?

Anyway, no huge discovery, sadly!

What do you mean, "rabbit hole"?!

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by ofmd

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think there is any confirmation of that. The ticket date doesn't line up with either child being a baby and at some point Ben's family would have also come to NYC, so it doesn't have to be hers.

Good point. Maybe when Dickie was 3, his family came to NYC and visited Loretta and she kept the bus ticket that was left behind.

And/Or…
regarding:

47 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Loretta mothering the wrong brother

I (we?) have been taken with the perfect casting of Jeremy Shamos as Dickie, bio-son of Meryl Streep’s Loretta, especially face-shapes and facial feature proportions: 
 

But what if we’ve been influenced by fancy camera work that has been showing us Dickie through Loretta’s eyes, but, Ben is the older brother:

and the parents switched their identities, perhaps so Loretta would not glom onto the famous one?
It would have had to happen when they were very young, but the older brother would have been old enough to be aware. Maybe this could explain Ben’s anger issues. And also give importance to his remarks about playing a high schooler when he was 31.

And maybe Loretta’s Mom-glomminess is due at least in part to…

8 minutes ago, ofmd said:

after she finishes her monologue, when Martin says "Where have you been?" and she hyperventilates (LOL), the voiceover says dramatically:

But when you finally land your dream, your moment in that spotlight, how far would you go to hang on to it?

…her wanting to ride the professional coattails of her famous bio-son?

Edited September 27, 2023 by shapeshifter

[ofmd]

I'm at a stage where I believe everything is possible. And I just remembered that Oliver might still be Dickie's (Ben's?) Daddy, what with him and Loretta visiting the same, drug-infused orgies.

Anyway, everyone could have done it, and everyone could be related to everyone... *laughing maniacally*

Edited September 27, 2023 by ofmd

[ofmd]

Also, I really hope Ben is not Loretta's bio-son, it would be very sad for her regardless. What with him being dead and all.

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, ofmd said:

Also, I really hope Ben is not Loretta's bio-son, it would be very sad for her regardless. What with him being dead and all.

Yes.
But if she really was a murderer of someone else’s son, it would be like instant karma.
🙁
But, as we’ve said before — and as was even in the show’s dialogue — having Oliver’s lover be the murder seems too much like Charles’ lover being the murderer.

[ofmd]

7 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes.
But if she really was a murderer of someone else’s son, it would be like instant karma.
🙁
But, as we’ve said before — and as was even in the show’s dialogue — having Oliver’s lover be the murder seems too much like Charles’ lover being the murderer.

Ofc that would pretty much rule out tobert, too.

[JenE4]

44 minutes ago, ofmd said:

I'm at a stage where I believe everything is possible. And I just remembered that Oliver might still be Dickie's (Ben's?) Daddy, what with him and Loretta visiting the same, drug-infused orgies.

Anyway, everyone could have done it, and everyone could be related to everyone... *laughing maniacally*

Well, that’s one twist we can rule out. Loretta was impregnated when she was a young woman (teen?) by her local (school? community?) play director. She moved to NY to pursue her dreams after giving away Dickie. 

[shapeshifter]

8 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

Well, that’s one twist we can rule out. Loretta was impregnated when she was a young woman (teen?) by her local (school? community?) play director. She moved to NY to pursue her dreams after giving away Dickie. 

I seem to recall the older theater guy who got Loretta pregnant was from NYC, although it was a local (Wisconsin?) play she was in at the time. 
Right?

[WearyTraveler]

5 hours ago, ksutton625 said:

Tolbert watched and did nothing when it happened.

I think that anecdote can cut both ways. Tobert either chose to remain a documentarian and not interfere or he actually did the opposite because he grew tired of not intervening.

I can picture a scene where Mabel says to him "you did nothing for that elephant, but this time you chose to intervene, you chose to make the story instead of filming it because you knew this would be a better outcome for you; this would finally give you the story that would put you on the map". Or words to that effect.

5 hours ago, ksutton625 said:

Tolbert watched and did nothing when it happened.

I think that anecdote can cut both ways. Tobert either chose to remain a documentarian and not interfere or he actually did the opposite because he grew tired of not intervening.

I can picture a scene where Mabel says to him "you did nothing for that elephant, but this time you chose to intervene, you chose to make the story instead of filming it because you knew this would be a better outcome for you; this would finally give you the story that would put you on the map". Or words to that effect.

[Affogato]

16 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I think that anecdote can cut both ways. Tobert either chose to remain a documentarian and not interfere or he actually did the opposite because he grew tired of not intervening.

I can picture a scene where Mabel says to him "you did nothing for that elephant, but this time you chose to intervene, you chose to make the story instead of filming it because you knew this would be a better outcome for you; this would finally give you the story that would put you on the map". Or words to that effect.

I think that anecdote can cut both ways. Tobert either chose to remain a documentarian and not interfere or he actually did the opposite because he grew tired of not intervening.

I can picture a scene where Mabel says to him "you did nothing for that elephant, but this time you chose to intervene, you chose to make the story instead of filming it because you knew this would be a better outcome for you; this would finally give you the story that would put you on the map". Or words to that effect.

Yes, I think that is an elegant solution and Tobert, while distant from most of the theater chatter and nonsense, is a good candidate for pushing Ben down the elevator shaft. 

19 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I seem to recall the older theater guy who got Loretta pregnant was from NYC, although it was a local (Wisconsin?) play she was in at the time. 
Right?

Yes, a broadway director. The guy in the attic seems like a possibility. 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, Affogato said:

Yes, a broadway director. The guy in the attic seems like a possibility. 

Jerry tells Oliver that his husband left him after he got fired from Death Rattle.  That detail doesn't really mesh with the womanizer Loretta described.  

[Affogato]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

Jerry tells Oliver that his husband left him after he got fired from Death Rattle.  That detail doesn't really mesh with the womanizer Loretta described.  

Oh, who knows? Perhaps he had a change of perspective.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Oh, who knows? Perhaps he had a change of perspective

There are also equal opportunity predators.

But, yeah, now that you mention it…

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Jerry tells Oliver that his husband left him after he got fired from Death Rattle.  That detail doesn't really mesh with the womanizer Loretta described.  

…it seems like Jerry having a husband might have been written into the dialogue so that we wouldn’t think he was Loretta’s baby’s father?🤔

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

There are also equal opportunity predators.

But, yeah, now that you mention it…

…it seems like Jerry having a husband might have been written into the dialogue so that we wouldn’t think he was Loretta’s baby’s father?🤔

There are so many dangling threads.

[shapeshifter]

I just added a 4th theory to the 3 (upthread) that attempt to explain the date discrepancies on the props for the memorial portrait and the old bus ticket:

• 4. Loretta had another child 3 years later in NY, and gave that child too to the Glenroys. 
  If so, why is there only one brother now? 
  Note: This feeds into the Triplets theme.

 

[ofmd]

I found Donna's speech that I mentioned above. I think she is that girl, and somehow those first scenes in episode 1 are about her (yes, I'm still on about that!).

 

[ajsnaves]

Just bumping this up for next season. Bakula fired that shot. 
 

It looks Sazz was trying to write something with her blood. Straight line. Start of the “B” from Bakula. 
 

Or maybe “J” for Jan. 

[Ohiopirate02]

Sazz needed to talk to Charles about something, I suspect that was the reason she was murdered.  

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, ajsnaves said:

It looks Sazz was trying to write something with her blood. Straight line. Start of the “B” from Bakula. 
Or maybe “J” for Jan. 

I've only viewed it once, but I came away from that final shot sure that the writers had not yet decided what Sazz was going to write, or how much of what she intended to write would be completed. 🤷🏻‍♀️

 

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Sazz needed to talk to Charles about something, I suspect that was the reason she was murdered.  

Ooo. New idea:  
Sazz got some serious info on some big-time criminal enterprise by way of visiting Jan in prison. Might have zero to do with Jan, but be something either Sazz overheard or Jan overheard or Jan's cell mate overheard.

But why would Sazz want to talk to Charles about it? 
Maybe because Charles could share the info with Detective Williams and keep Sazz out of it? 

[ofmd]

I'd bet good money that the writers had no idea who killed Ben at the end of last season, either.

[Affogato]

22 hours ago, ajsnaves said:

Just bumping this up for next season. Bakula fired that shot. 
 

It looks Sazz was trying to write something with her blood. Straight line. Start of the “B” from Bakula. 
 

Or maybe “J” for Jan. 

Maybe.

I wonder if Joy and Bakula will move into the penthouse.