Do You Consider Yourself A Feminist?: Why Or Why Not?

[Dimity]

4 minutes ago, Anela said:

ReevDrummond is also one of those bloggers turned food bloggers, who acted like they were simple ranchers, when I think her husband’s family are multi-millionaires.  

No different really than people like Ina Garten and Martha Stewart.  Women who have the luxury to enjoy cooking because they choose to not because they have to.  I've always said if I ever get rich one of my priorities is to hire a chef - hell I'm not fancy a plain old cook will do the trick!

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Dimity said:

No different really than people like Ina Garten and Martha Stewart.  Women who have the luxury to enjoy cooking because they choose to not because they have to.  I've always said if I ever get rich one of my priorities is to hire a chef - hell I'm not fancy a plain old cook will do the trick!

The only real difference between Ree and Ina and Martha is the fact that Ree tries to hide how wealthy her husband's family is. Ina built her empire out in the Hamptons. She has never hidden the wealth that makes her lifestyle possible. Ditto for Martha. While Ree wants to pretend she and her family are from a more humble stock. Of course part of that is because Ree and her husband do not want to draw attention as to how his family became rich. Not after David Grann published Killers of the Flower Moon. 

[Dimity]

11 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

While Ree wants to pretend she and her family are from a more humble stock.

I'm not a big fan but my sister was and I never had that impression.  She has made no secret of her father having been a doctor and her growing up very comfortably off.  The few shows I've seen of Pioneer Woman, well you'd have to be an idiot not to realize nobody lives on a ranch like that and is worrying about how to pay the bills!

[tearknee]

Society still hasn't caught up (and as "Ask Amy" on feminist dot com found out) some women think feminism means that forcing cross-dressing and deliberate emasculation won't lead to violence from their sons' classmates and so-called "friends".

Oh, and this happens, too:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rebecca-joynes-paedophile-sexual-abuse-29476607

[EtheltoTillie]

I believe Martha's empire is much bigger than either Drummond's or Ina's.  Martha didn't start out wealthy, but she became well to do by her initial career in the stock market and her husband's business.  But she started her catering business as a serious enterprise and then she grew it into the magazine and media empire.  I don't think she ever was a person who cooked because she didn't have to.   She was very serious about it as a professional.

[PRgal]

50 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The only real difference between Ree and Ina and Martha is the fact that Ree tries to hide how wealthy her husband's family is. Ina built her empire out in the Hamptons. She has never hidden the wealth that makes her lifestyle possible. Ditto for Martha. While Ree wants to pretend she and her family are from a more humble stock. Of course part of that is because Ree and her husband do not want to draw attention as to how his family became rich. Not after David Grann published Killers of the Flower Moon. 

Some people hide their wealth because it makes them more approachable or it's more comfortable to them.  Many years ago, I went to a party where one girl said she was going to rent a "slum it" by renting a cheap car to roadtrip with her friends.  I took it as "I don't want to let the world know that I'm 'privileged'"  Or how I felt I had to be really careful letting people know where I went to high school in some situations because I didn't want to be judged.  

[Anela]

55 minutes ago, Dimity said:

I'm not a big fan but my sister was and I never had that impression.  She has made no secret of her father having been a doctor and her growing up very comfortably off.  The few shows I've seen of Pioneer Woman, well you'd have to be an idiot not to realize nobody lives on a ranch like that and is worrying about how to pay the bills!

lol, I really didn't know how much money she had, until I followed a link to a snark forum, years ago, where people mentioned his family. 

 

53 minutes ago, tearknee said:

Society still hasn't caught up (and as "Ask Amy" on feminist dot com found out) some women think feminism means that forcing cross-dressing and deliberate emasculation won't lead to violence from their sons' classmates and so-called "friends".

Oh, and this happens, too:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rebecca-joynes-paedophile-sexual-abuse-29476607

But almost all women out here, aren't doing this to boys. And little girls playing dress-up, know nothing about feminism.

[Dimity]

Mothers dressing their boys as girls and "emasculating" them is an actual real problem?  I've no doubt it happens - probably around once in that  proverbial blue moon.  There are actual real issues out there and someone is obsessing over this?  Sheesh.

[PRgal]

24 minutes ago, Dimity said:

Mothers dressing their boys as girls and "emasculating" them is an actual real problem?  I've no doubt it happens - probably around once in that  proverbial blue moon.  There are actual real issues out there and someone is obsessing over this?  Sheesh.

You know what we need to do to fix things?  Start by teaching boys that it's okay to ask for help, that's what.  I was at a meeting about mental health awareness and learned that women are more likely to seek therapy than men.  In fact, men often won't seek group therapy unless it's one that is ESPECIALLY for them.  Even my son, without any direct influence, wouldn't always tell us how he really feels about things.  Heck, he sometimes won't even say he doesn't like what I made for dinner (or breakfast), only that he's "full."  Take this morning for example, I made him toast for breakfast.  He barely had any.  But because he didn't, my dad suggested that he take the toast with him for the drive (my dad drives him to school).  I said that he can't do that, because the school is nut-aware, and that kids who have nuts at breakfast need to brush their teeth before going to school so that there's next to zero chance of causing an allergic reaction.  So instead, I gave him a container of nut-free cereal.  My dad texted me later today to tell me that he ate the entire thing.  I even ASKED if he wanted something else, and he said he didn't!  He didn't want to lose face, I guess.  But this shouldn't be happening.  He should be okay expressing that he wanted cereal when I asked him whether he did.

[Anela]

Gisele Pelicot is my person of the year.  I can’t even imagine being in her situation.  

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

Gisele Pelicot is my person of the year.

The Independent's, too.

Quote

Donald Trump? No. Gisèle Pelicot is the real Person of the Year

It is a case that has shocked the world, but the incredible woman at the heart of it has revealed uncomfortable truths, says Laura Bates. Her bravery has forced us to recognise that men commit violence against women every single day and that such violence is not committed by 'monsters', but by normal-seeming men.

Edited December 20, 2024 by Bastet

[peacheslatour]

On 12/20/2024 at 12:10 PM, Bastet said:

The Independent's, too.

I can't even grasp the incredible courage she showed in this whole thing. I admire her tremendously.

[Dimity]

[Guest]

On 12/19/2024 at 7:03 PM, tearknee said:

Society still hasn't caught up (and as "Ask Amy" on feminist dot com found out) some women think feminism means that forcing cross-dressing and deliberate emasculation won't lead to violence from their sons' classmates and so-called "friends".

Oh, and this happens, too:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rebecca-joynes-paedophile-sexual-abuse-29476607

Shame the other responses were deleted, for some reason. 
 

What is the point of this insulting post? Are you trying to claim that feminists don’t believe women can be sexual predators?

How many feminists are dressing up their little boys as girls, in an attempt to prevent them from being violent? You’re bringing up something incredibly rare on a sub about feminism and I’d love to know why. 

On 12/19/2024 at 8:00 PM, Dimity said:

Mothers dressing their boys as girls and "emasculating" them is an actual real problem?  I've no doubt it happens - probably around once in that  proverbial blue moon.  There are actual real issues out there and someone is obsessing over this?  Sheesh.

It’s an utterly bizarre and insulting post. Imagine popping up on a sub about feminism and being all “oh and women can be abusive too”. Yes… we know. Who here denies it? 

Edited January 7 by BuffySummers

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Dimity said:

A colleague recently revealed to me that she does this and she seemed embarrassed. She didn’t realise that it’s a normal thing women do to feel more safe. 

[Dimity]

1 hour ago, BuffySummers said:

A colleague recently revealed to me that she does this and she seemed embarrassed. She didn’t realise that it’s a normal thing women do to feel more safe. 

I do that if I'm alone.  A friend of mine told me she always "talks" on her phone if she is walking alone at night, the way she figures it someone will think twice about picking her to attack if they think she can summon help.  I think there's a flaw there but it gives her comfort.

[Annber03]

I remember a guest on Craig Ferguson's show once talking about how, when they lived in New York CIty back in the 1970s, they had to walk home from work at night. They would sing really loudly, in the hopes that either people would think them too weird and offputting to come near them or wouldn't dare come near them lest they draw attention. 

I don't know if that strategy would work for everyone, but it seemed to work for them. 

 

[peacheslatour]

11 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I remember a guest on Craig Ferguson's show once talking about how, when they lived in New York CIty back in the 1970s, they had to walk home from work at night. They would sing really loudly, in the hopes that either people would think them too weird and offputting to come near them or wouldn't dare come near them lest they draw attention. 

I don't know if that strategy would work for everyone, but it seemed to work for them. 

 

I used to do that too when I was walking through my neighborhood at night. And walk right down the middle of the street while I was doing it!

[Browncoat]

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I remember a guest on Craig Ferguson's show once talking about how, when they lived in New York CIty back in the 1970s, they had to walk home from work at night. They would sing really loudly, in the hopes that either people would think them too weird and offputting to come near them or wouldn't dare come near them lest they draw attention. 

I don't know if that strategy would work for everyone, but it seemed to work for them. 

 

 

8 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I used to do that too when I was walking through my neighborhood at night. And walk right down the middle of the street while I was doing it!

I did that when I was walking across campus at night in my college years.  I'd skip, sometimes, too, while singing silly songs.

[tearknee]

most self-defence tips etc (take a cell phone pic of his registration and etc.) have less chance of saving your life in reality -- sure the police might have their man -- but you (general "you") will still likely be dead and your loved ones alone and in grief.

Real life women aren't Xena or Ripley.

(Most men aren't Luke Skywalker or Indy either, so they'd be killed by someone determined to do so, as well)

9 hours ago, Dimity said:

I do that if I'm alone.  A friend of mine told me she always "talks" on her phone if she is walking alone at night, the way she figures it someone will think twice about picking her to attack if they think she can summon help.  I think there's a flaw there but it gives her comfort.

The flaw being that someone willing to attack you is not stupid like the criminals on TV or in a film and will likely know when it is fake.

[Anela]

I’m ready to out-crazy anyone who tries to attack me.  I don’t know if it will help, if they’re physically stronger than me, but I can try.  

[tearknee]

The USA's gun problem doesn't help. Again, most are aware of guns but fewer women than men are trained to use them.

Among millions of choices i have - i decide/decided to choose survival. Or the best hope of it.

More than once in my Xennial life.

[Anela]

3 minutes ago, tearknee said:

The USA's gun problem doesn't help. Again, most are aware of guns but fewer women than men are trained to use them.

Among millions of choices i have - i decide/decided to choose survival. Or the best hope of it.

More than once in my Xennial life.

I don’t like guns. I thought about getting some training, using them, but I can’t get anywhere, and I doubt I could afford it right now.  Where I live, I might be able to buy a gun, with no training, but I’m not doing that.  
I mentioned a woman who sells small self-defense weapons, in another thread.  I don’t think I can link to her site, but I’m going to buy something from her, when I can.  

Edited January 7 by Anela

[tearknee]

36 minutes ago, Anela said:

I don’t like guns. I thought about getting some training, using them, but I can’t get anywhere, and I doubt I could afford it right now.  Where I live, I might be able to buy a gun, with no training, but I’m not doing that.  
I mentioned a woman who sells small self-defense weapons, in another thread.  I don’t think I can link to her site, but I’m going to buy something from her, when I can.  

Thank you. With my disability and impairments - i had to choose the best hope of survival. Many times and places/

*soft sad smile whilst looking down into my reversed palms*

[Ohiopirate02]

45 minutes ago, Anela said:

I’m ready to out-crazy anyone who tries to attack me.  I don’t know if it will help, if they’re physically stronger than me, but I can try.  

Taking a self-defense class can help. Having a couple of moves in your back pocket is never a bad thing. I know that while men tend to be physically stronger than women their strength is in their upper body and our strength is in our lower body. I was able to get away from a guy who tried to rob me without any weapon because I used my lower body. This guy thought I was an easy mark walking by myself, but I was prepared. My valuables were on my body not in my purse. My purse only contained the typical things like lipstick, blush, hand sanitizer and feminine supplies. My phone, keys with attached wallet, and MP3 player were in my pockets. I had also spied him up ahead when I was walking home, and saw him disappear into the woods so I was prepared when I walked by. He went for my purse but got greedy and wanted the MP3 player, so he put his arms around me. I was able to squat and use my thighs to flip him off of me. He dropped my purse and I almost lost a shoe before a car came by and he scampered away. I took off running and made it safely to my apartment which was pretty much right there. The woods where he was hiding were right next to my apartment complex and my apartment was in the second building to the front. I lost absolutely nothing that night.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Dimity said:

I do that if I'm alone.  A friend of mine told me she always "talks" on her phone if she is walking alone at night, the way she figures it someone will think twice about picking her to attack if they think she can summon help.  I think there's a flaw there but it gives her comfort.

I do the same thing. It is mostly just for comfort. Realistically, I know I wouldn’t have the time to use it, although I do sometimes imagine how I’d use it as a weapon. 

[tearknee]

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Taking a self-defense class can help. Having a couple of moves in your back pocket is never a bad thing. I know that while men tend to be physically stronger than women their strength is in their upper body and our strength is in our lower body. I was able to get away from a guy who tried to rob me without any weapon because I used my lower body. This guy thought I was an easy mark walking by myself, but I was prepared. My valuables were on my body not in my purse. My purse only contained the typical things like lipstick, blush, hand sanitizer and feminine supplies. My phone, keys with attached wallet, and MP3 player were in my pockets. I had also spied him up ahead when I was walking home, and saw him disappear into the woods so I was prepared when I walked by. He went for my purse but got greedy and wanted the MP3 player, so he put his arms around me. I was able to squat and use my thighs to flip him off of me. He dropped my purse and I almost lost a shoe before a car came by and he scampered away. I took off running and made it safely to my apartment which was pretty much right there. The woods where he was hiding were right next to my apartment complex and my apartment was in the second building to the front. I lost absolutely nothing that night.

As the stats show -- and i have to know the tragic-horrible way* --most aren't as lucky/skilled to escape. At least, not in life...

 

(* - she'd left her ICQ on thinking she'd be back soon enough. It was still showing her as online even as i was talking to her mom).

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, tearknee said:

As the stats show -- and i have to know the tragic-horrible way* --most aren't as lucky/skilled to escape. At least, not in life...

 

(* - she'd left her ICQ on thinking she'd be back soon enough. It was still showing her as online even as i was talking to her mom).

It's not the maniac jumping out of the bushes that most of us need to worry about.

Nearly Nine out of 10 Women Murdered by Men are Killed by Someone They Know and Two Thirds Die by Gunfire, New Violence Policy Center Study Finds. Washington, DC — More than 2,400 females were killed by males in 2022 and of these, 87.5 percent knew their killer.

-Oct 3, 2024 Violence Policy Center

[tearknee]

I know. I'm just still haunted by that ICQ "online" indicator -- even though her mom was telling me she was dead.

[peacheslatour]

I just saw this and realized it something I had always known but this made it perfectly clear.

[Ashlee]

Absolutely. Using the internet has only made me more feminist tbh. Growing up, I held a lot of internalised misogyny. I loved being “not like other girls”, as being a girl as seen as weak and inferior. I’m just happy I got over that. It’s not easy. I still see so much hatred for women everywhere I look. I was only told yesterday that as a woman, I am an “inferior creature”, by some lovely men on Reddit (they didn’t like that I praised a female video game character they don’t find attractive), before I was mocked for likely owning a cat (I don’t, but men seem obsessed with women owning cats). I’m lucky, as I live in a relatively safe place for women. I don’t know how anyone can see how women are treated in places around the world though and still not identify as a feminist in any way. 

[Ceindreadh]

10 hours ago, Anela said:

I don’t like guns. I thought about getting some training, using them, but I can’t get anywhere, and I doubt I could afford it right now.  Where I live, I might be able to buy a gun, with no training, but I’m not doing that.  
I mentioned a woman who sells small self-defense weapons, in another thread.  I don’t think I can link to her site, but I’m going to buy something from her, when I can.  

The problem with a weapon is getting access to it when you need it.  How easy is it to get a gun from a bag, or even from a holster if it's under a buttoned up coat, when you're in a hurry. 

The best thing about self-defence classes is that it makes you think about how you can react if attacked.  I read in a survival book that when you get on an aeroplane, you should run through a plan of what you'll do after an emergency landing "undo seat belt, stand up, move to the exit" etc, because if you've run through it in your mind before the event, then you're more likely to be able to follow the plan after the event. 

Same thing applies to self defence.  An attacker already knows what they're going to do, but if you've already thought of a response to it beforehand, it'll be easier to implement it.

[Ashlee]

To add to the self defence debate, I actually carry hairspray around in my bag. It’s not illegal for me to carry and it doesn’t feel good when sprayed in your eyes. I have also taken some self defence classes, but not many. 

[RealHousewife]

5 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I just saw this and realized it something I had always known but this made it perfectly clear.

This reminds me so much of a conversation I recently had. This man claims to love women, but he is more defensive of men, brags about men, idolizes men, says men get all the blame but don't get credit for all they've contributed in this world, that women would fall apart within weeks without any men. He also says men get the short end of the stick when it comes to how they're valued, custody of their kids, everything. He has daughters, so you would think he'd feel more defensive of women and girls, but nope. The way he talks unless you're related to him, all he wants from a woman is devotion, service and sex. 

 

[Ashlee]

3 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

This reminds me so much of a conversation I recently had. This man claims to love women, but he is more defensive of men, brags about men, idolizes men, says men get all the blame but don't get credit for all they've contributed in this world, that women would fall apart within weeks without any men. He also says men get the short end of the stick when it comes to how they're valued, custody of their kids, everything. He has daughters, so you would think he'd feel more defensive of women and girls, but nope. The way he talks unless you're related to him, all he wants from a woman is devotion, service and sex. 

 

I’ve never understood the custody argument. Don’t studies show that it’s completely false to claim that men don’t get equal rights, when it comes to custody arrangements? In fact, most men don’t typically seek out custody. They don’t usually want it. At most, they may request joint custody and they usually almost always get it. In fact, some studies show that mothers are the ones who are discriminated against, especially ones who speak about domestic violence. 

[Ohiopirate02]

6 hours ago, Ashlee said:

I’ve never understood the custody argument. Don’t studies show that it’s completely false to claim that men don’t get equal rights, when it comes to custody arrangements? In fact, most men don’t typically seek out custody. They don’t usually want it. At most, they may request joint custody and they usually almost always get it. In fact, some studies show that mothers are the ones who are discriminated against, especially ones who speak about domestic violence. 

It is a false claim. Most if not all family courts in the US default to 50/50 custody unless we are talking about an actual newborn who's mother is breastfeeding. Courts do want children to spend equal or as close to equal as possible time with both parents. Because studies have shown that is what is normally best for the child. What happens is these men who love to complain about never seeing their kids (and also having to pay child support) do not want to do the day-to-day work of taking care of their children.

Now we all know a man or know of a man who did get screwed by the family court system. But, these men are the outliers. I do know a guy who's ex-wife did try to say he was an unfit parent when they split. This strategy did not work out the way she wanted because the judge saw through it. I actually know more men who have stepped up to raise another man's kids than men who have been screwed by the family courts.

[Bastet]

7 hours ago, Ashlee said:

I’ve never understood the custody argument. Don’t studies show that it’s completely false to claim that men don’t get equal rights, when it comes to custody arrangements? In fact, most men don’t typically seek out custody. They don’t usually want it. At most, they may request joint custody and they usually almost always get it. In fact, some studies show that mothers are the ones who are discriminated against, especially ones who speak about domestic violence. 

You are right.  People looked around and saw a ton of mothers with primary or sole custody and decided "Courts favor the mothers" and then MRA nuts turned it into a crusade.  No.  Family court is not some strange outlier, a system in which it's women who fare better.  The reason so many women have custody is because so many men don't ask for it (either because they're deadbeat dads or because the co-parents have come to a reasonable decision that it's best for the kids to live with mom most or all of the time).  But the majority of men who do petition for it are granted custody.

[Dimity]

My niece had her ex petition for full custody and he was denied it because the judge could see right through him.  He didn't want the child, he wanted all the money he thought was unfairly going to her mother.  Family allowance etc. and of course he didn't want to pay any child support.  Had he been a more persuasive person he might have prevailed.  As it was he acted in court (well the Judges chamber) exactly the same way he acted out in the wild.  Entitled blowhard who thinks everyone is stupid.  Not the best way to impress a family court judge.

[tearknee]

90+% people - of both main genders -- think by emotion not intellect. "anti-intellectualism" is not 'bigotry' -- just as "reverse racism" is not a thing. Making fun of intellectuals/Guardian readers/NPR listeners is not punching down but UP for most of the population.

[Dimity]

[peacheslatour]

[isalicat]

On 1/7/2025 at 1:55 PM, peacheslatour said:

I just saw this and realized it something I had always known but this made it perfectly clear.

This is an incredible generalization and certainly doesn't reflect my experience as a woman. Just sayin'

[Ashlee]

My friend has just told me she has officially quit the group she was in on X. I don’t have X and I don’t know how it works. Do they have groups? It was a group or a page for people who had been victims of sexual harassment. People (mostly women) would use it to speak about their experiences. Unfortunately, it was flooded with mocking posts and even threats from men, who only targeted female members. 

Things like this are really tiring. 

[Ashlee]

7 minutes ago, isalicat said:

This is an incredible generalization and certainly doesn't reflect my experience as a woman. Just sayin'

Well statements like that are usually generalisations, but they usually have a grain of truth in them. Certainly, whenever I learn about history and women’s experiences and places throughout history, it does very much seem like we have mostly always been an afterthought and men looked to other men for guidance, advice and respect, while women were there to be extensions of men. 

[isalicat]

1 minute ago, tearknee said:

Yes, what should anyone expect of ideologues and activists? They are not normal people. they are pretty much Lord Curzon, the bus and wanting to go to his club but wearing purple or red instead of aristocratic blue.

Why fall into the same trope of generalization about anyone who thinks anything you don't agree with? (yes, I know that is terrible grammar - so sue me). It is *very* normal to hold these ideas about entire swaths of the population (like people of the opposite gender than yourself) that are not entirely true, but may have a "grain of truth" that echoes that particular person's experience. My experience is that as a strong, successful and confident woman I would not be around any man who reflected the concept stated above, so I just don't and won't and haven't. Easy peasey.

3 minutes ago, Ashlee said:

Well statements like that are usually generalisations, but they usually have a grain of truth in them. Certainly, whenever I learn about history and women’s experiences and places throughout history, it does very much seem like we have mostly always been an afterthought and men looked to other men for guidance, advice and respect, while women were there to be extensions of men. 

Elizabeth I? Golda Meir? Indira Gandhi? the list goes on of women that were never "extensions of men"...and I'm on that list, though certainly without the fame or public accomplishments. History is always viewed through the filter of expectation so you take from it what you already think in advance, just like politics and religion, for the most part.

[Ashlee]

14 minutes ago, isalicat said:

Why fall into the same trope of generalization about anyone who thinks anything you don't agree with? (yes, I know that is terrible grammar - so sue me). It is *very* normal to hold these ideas about entire swaths of the population (like people of the opposite gender than yourself) that are not entirely true, but may have a "grain of truth" that echoes that particular person's experience. My experience is that as a strong, successful and confident woman I would not be around any man who reflected the concept stated above, so I just don't and won't and haven't. Easy peasey.

Just to add, I wasn’t saying that the post reflects my own experiences (I’m not sure if you were referring to me there, but I just wanted to clarify). I also would not tolerate men who think that way, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist or haven’t throughout history.

 

edit: you edited your post so this is in response to that:

Yes, women with power existed in the past (and present, obviously). Who has claimed otherwise? Marilyn Frye wasn’t saying that women have never had power. 
 

 

Edited January 10 by Ashlee

[isalicat]

4 minutes ago, Ashlee said:

 

Yes, women with power existed in the past (and present, obviously). Who has claimed otherwise? Marilyn Frye wasn’t saying that women have never had power. 

She explicitly says that men only want devotion and sex and such from women - that they (men) do not respect women or learn from them...go back and read the scree again. It means that women's only power vis-a-vis men is their ability to give or with hold sex or care and I think that is nonsense (based on my actual experience with actual men over the course of my 68 years so far).

[Ashlee]

9 minutes ago, isalicat said:

She explicitly says that men only want devotion and sex and such from women - that they (men) do not respect women or learn from them...go back and read the scree again. It means that women's only power vis-a-vis men is their ability to give or with hold sex or care and I think that is nonsense (based on my actual experience with actual men over the course of my 68 years so far).

Yes, it’s a generalisation. And she said “most”. 
 

In all sincerity, do you really believe that  Frye was claiming that every woman who has ever existed has had the exact same experience with men, or that every man who has ever existed, has treated women exactly the same as the next man? She didn’t claim that. 
 

Although I do find it funny that Indira is the only PM that India has ever had, Elizabeth was born into her position and Golda was Israel’s first and only female head of government. I don’t see how they disprove the general theory that Frye was presenting. 

Edited January 10 by Ashlee

[isalicat]

1 minute ago, Ashlee said:

Yes, it’s a generalisation. 
 

In all sincerity, do you really believe that  Frye was claiming that every woman who has ever existed has had the exact same experience with men, or that every man who has ever existed, has treated women exactly the same as the next man? I find it hard to believe that she was not also away that women with power have existed for a long time. 
 

Although I do find it funny that Indira is the only PM that India has ever had, Elizabeth was born into her position and Golda was Israel’s first and only female head of government. I don’t see how they disprove the general theory that Frye was presenting. 

Again, I don't think Frye is addressing "power", I think she is addressing issues of perception and respect; i.e. that overall men do not take women seriously - they do not look to women generally as examples or for advice or anything other than objects to have sex with or to provide them with "care". I was responding regarding power to you, not to Frye in that regard. And I used Elizabeth, Golda and Indira because they may be anomalous but in each case they are very good examples of how anyone can subvert the expectations of others through will and effort and excellence. in short, if women think that men *only* objectify them and respond accordingly with either submission or resentment, they perpetuate the trope that Frye seems to postulate is the norm. I don't think that is especially helpful; in fact, I think it is especially harmful. One of the reasons that modern feminist studies (in my opinion) creates more problems than it solves.

[Ashlee]

13 minutes ago, isalicat said:

Again, I don't think Frye is addressing "power", I think she is addressing issues of perception and respect; i.e. that overall men do not take women seriously - they do not look to women generally as examples or for advice or anything other than objects to have sex with or to provide them with "care". I was responding regarding power to you, not to Frye in that regard. And I used Elizabeth, Golda and Indira because they may be anomalous but in each case they are very good examples of how anyone can subvert the expectations of others through will and effort and excellence. in short, if women think that men *only* objectify them and respond accordingly with either submission or resentment, they perpetuate the trope that Frye seems to postulate is the norm. I don't think that is especially helpful; in fact, I think it is especially harmful. One of the reasons that modern feminist studies (in my opinion) creates more problems than it solves.

I very much disagree. 
 

Acknowledging certain attitudes and cultures does not mean we have to submit to them or become resentful beings. There is no single way to respond to such attitudes. 
 

Overall, I believe that what Frye is saying holds a lot of truth to it. I don’t think it’s wrong to think this way. I will not respond with submission or resentment, but I also refuse to not acknowledge what I believe to be a rather prevalent pattern throughout history, including such topics as philosophy and religion. It is much too prevalent and important to ignore. 

Edited January 10 by Ashlee