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Do You Consider Yourself A Feminist?: Why Or Why Not?

RealHousewife

By RealHousewife
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tearknee

tearknee

12 hours ago, Ashlee said:

Yes, it’s a generalisation. And she said “most”. 
 

In all sincerity, do you really believe that  Frye was claiming that every woman who has ever existed has had the exact same experience with men, or that every man who has ever existed, has treated women exactly the same as the next man? She didn’t claim that. 
 

Although I do find it funny that Indira is the only PM that India has ever had, Elizabeth was born into her position and Golda was Israel’s first and only female head of government. I don’t see how they disprove the general theory that Frye was presenting. 

Again, as i told the other poster elsewhere here -- look up IG and "the Emergency" before anyone belts out that Reddy song.

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Bastet
Bastet

Being a feminist is fundamental to who I am; I'm a woman, so I'm a feminist.  (Not that men aren't feminists, too, but as a woman living in a patriarchy, how in the world would I not say yes to the "b

Bastet
Bastet

Which is the exact opposite of what incels do.  If a group earns on a spot on the Anti-Defamation League's website, they certainly are not going to earn any sympathy from me.  They're a hate grou

theredhead77
theredhead77

And murder them when they don't want to date you. 

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fastiller

fastiller

13 hours ago, isalicat said:

Elizabeth I? Golda Meir? Indira Gandhi? the list goes on of women that were never "extensions of men"...and I'm on that list, though certainly without the fame or public accomplishments. History is always viewed through the filter of expectation so you take from it what you already think in advance, just like politics and religion, for the most part.

Elizabeth was very much an extension of her father.  Also, amongst the very highest of concerns throughout her reign was the fact that she hadn't produced a male heir.  So, she was also an extension of a never-born son. 
Gandhi was also a 'nepo-pol' & much of her power derived from her father.

 

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Dimity

Dimity

Citing exceptions only really serves to prove the point.  Have privileged women always existed?  Of course. 

That does not change the reality that throughout history, in almost every society, women were not just second class citizens they weren't even considered citizens. 

And in the US if Trump and Project 2025 succeeds generations of progress will be swept aside and all the "well just stand up for yourself and ask" in the world won't make a single bit of difference.

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Anela

Anela

15 hours ago, isalicat said:

This is an incredible generalization and certainly doesn't reflect my experience as a woman. Just sayin'

It's been my experience with a lot of men, and I've also had experience with women who feel the need to defend men, instead of other women. Even when they know that man is in the wrong. 

1 hour ago, tearknee said:

That goes for progressives as well as reactionaries.

 

People who insist on insulting feminism, tend to be reactionaries. 

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tearknee

tearknee

48 minutes ago, Anela said:

It's been my experience with a lot of men, and I've also had experience with women who feel the need to defend men, instead of other women. Even when they know that man is in the wrong. 

People who insist on insulting feminism, tend to be reactionaries. 

I'm not. I simply have a deep dislike of "intersectionalists" who have attempted to hi-jack feminist advocacy groups and the broader feminist movement and have tried to turn it into an all-purpose far-left protest group. That's what happened to the AIDS group ACT-UP 33 years ago [and caused a fatal split and its downfall].

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Ashlee

Ashlee

(edited)
6 hours ago, tearknee said:

Again, as i told the other poster elsewhere here -- look up IG and "the Emergency" before anyone belts out that Reddy song.

No idea who Reddy is, but I’m perfectly fine responding how I wish, thank you. 

4 hours ago, Anela said:

It's been my experience with a lot of men, and I've also had experience with women who feel the need to defend men, instead of other women. Even when they know that man is in the wrong. 

People who insist on insulting feminism, tend to be reactionaries. 

100%. Happens all the time, unfortunately. I was one of those women at one point. 

Edited by Ashlee
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tearknee

tearknee

25 minutes ago, isalicat said:

You can question feminist theory without being either "insulting" or a "reactionary". Its not an either/or world out there in my actual experience.

Exactly. As Obi Wan says to Anakin in ROTS about 'absolutes'.

I never do *that* but i find hypocrisy and duplicitousness irritating. Especially given what i have said about my dislike for "intersectionalists" and what they do (e.g. what happened to ACT-UP). 

9 minutes ago, Ashlee said:

No idea who Reddy is, but I’m perfectly fine responding how I wish, thank you. 

Helen Reddy.

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Ashlee

Ashlee

3 minutes ago, tearknee said:

Exactly. As Obi Wan says to Anakin in ROTS about 'absolutes'.

I never do *that* but i find hypocrisy and duplicitousness irritating. Especially given what i have said about my dislike for "intersectionalists" and what they do (e.g. what happened to ACT-UP). 

Helen Reddy.

Right. 

Dimity

Dimity

2 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

It's a great song. Written by Mke Nesmith of the Monkees :D. He was very complimentary of Linda Ronstadt's take on the song. 

As he should have been!  She did him proud.  That song is on my playlist and has been for years along with several other songs by Linda Ronstadt (and The Monkees too for that matter!).

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Ashlee

Ashlee

1 hour ago, tearknee said:

If people feel they need to base their philosophy on a five-decade old song, the lyrics of which rely on a dated notion of collectivism and class that has long since been disproved by both nationalism and individualism?

"I hope i don't grow up. Doesn't look much fun" -- Poltergeist II

 

…

 

Enjoying a song =/= basing your philosophy on it. 

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tearknee

tearknee

The whole song is based on a notion of women as a collective, the now discredited notion of class. You only have to look at 2016 and a few months ago to realize how collectivism is horse poo. If the same percent -- but overall, of the eligible women who cast ballots in 2016 -- had voted for HRC -- more than women who were already her base -- she would have won.

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Dimity

Dimity

1 hour ago, tearknee said:

If people feel they need to base their philosophy on a five-decade old song, the lyrics of which rely on a dated notion of collectivism and class that has long since been disproved by both nationalism and individualism?

"I hope i don't grow up. Doesn't look much fun" -- Poltergeist II

 

I cannot tell if you are being serious or not.  I trust not.

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Ashlee

Ashlee

5 hours ago, tearknee said:

The whole song is based on a notion of women as a collective, the now discredited notion of class. You only have to look at 2016 and a few months ago to realize how collectivism is horse poo. If the same percent -- but overall, of the eligible women who cast ballots in 2016 -- had voted for HRC -- more than women who were already her base -- she would have won.

 

It’s a song. You can enjoy the message and you can enjoy how it sounds. You don’t have to base your philosophy on it. 

5 hours ago, Dimity said:

I cannot tell if you are being serious or not.  I trust not.

Same. 

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Dimity

Dimity

9 hours ago, Ashlee said:

You can enjoy the message and you can enjoy how it sounds. You don’t have to base your philosophy on it. 

It's more likely for most people that a song resonates with them because it is based on the philosophy of life that you already have.  It's also the reason so many songs end up, at least for me, on my "nope, not giving that one any airtime" - because it reflects a philosophy that is diametrically opposite everything I believe in.  Or, in other words, the song is a misogynist piece of garbage.

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peacheslatour

peacheslatour

30 minutes ago, Dimity said:

It's more likely for most people that a song resonates with them because it is based on the philosophy of life that you already have.  It's also the reason so many songs end up, at least for me, on my "nope, not giving that one any airtime" - because it reflects a philosophy that is diametrically opposite everything I believe in.  Or, in other words, the song is a misogynist piece of garbage.

What? You didn't just lurve She's Havin' My Baby?

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Dimity

Dimity

(edited)

Despite gains, women still do most of the housework. Will this gender gap ever narrow?

This article highlighted something I find a lot of men, and some women as well, ignore when discussions surrounding housework and childcare come up:

Quote

She adds that ensuring a woman's invisible labour is truly recognized — the planning, researching, organizing, emailing, and co-ordinating that's also part of modern daily life — is a major step toward greater gender equality.

This.  So much this.  My husband has always been good about doing his share, sure it's nowhere near 50/50 but I can't complain.  But where I definitely do the lion's share, both when the kids were home and now is in the 'secretarial' side of things.  It's time consuming, it can be hellishly frustrating and it's constant (there is ALWAYS something).

Edited by Dimity
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Bastet

Bastet

Yeah, I love that the term "emotional labor" is now starting to be talked about; there was an article that sparked a documentary, and now I see the term pop up in numerous comments in the "Am I The Asshole?" threads my friend sends me from Reddit.  (That place, like the rest of society, has so very many sexist assholes, but it is heartening to see replies calling out "weaponized incompetence" and women bearing the "emotional labor" burden rise to the top.)  Whatever he's physically doing (which isn't even close to 50%), she's the one keeping track of everything that needs doing and when it needs to be done.  

And, yeah, it's not just men, there are women dealing with this who don't even think about how they've been indoctrinated to frame it -- how often do we see and hear "My husband/boyfriend helps"?  No.  Help implies taking care of the house and kids is her job, with which he magnanimously assists (often only after being asked/told).  It's not, it's a shared responsibility and a fully functioning adult is perfectly capable of looking around, seeing what needs done, and fucking doing it.

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tearknee

tearknee

Feminism really did want to liberate boys when girls were shown what more they can do

i try to feel sorry for Marie Wilson in this article below about what happened to her plan of two days  but i can't - as that's what happens when forces are unleashed such as ideologies  -- you can no longer control them (cf. the Kaiser sending Lenin back to Russia on the sealed train) -- and by the time you realize it (no "son's day") it's far too late.


https://prospect.org/culture/muscle-state/

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peacheslatour

peacheslatour

4 hours ago, Dimity said:

Despite gains, women still do most of the housework. Will this gender gap ever narrow?

This article highlighted something I find a lot of men, and some women as well, ignore when discussions surrounding housework and childcare come up:

This.  So much this.  My husband has always been good about doing his share, sure it's nowhere near 50/50 but I can't complain.  But where I definitely do the lion's share, both when the kids were home and now is in the 'secretarial' side of things.  It's time consuming, it can be hellishly frustrating and it's constant (there is ALWAYS something).

I did it all when I was working but one good thing about retail is working on weekends so my husband had to step up. And he was great at it most of the time. I'll never forget this one time when I came home exhausted at the end of a long day. I was struggling to get my coat off, set may bag down and all I could think about was getting out of my bra and into my jammies. My husband goes "so what's for dinner?" I looked at him and said "is that how you think this works? On the days when I don't work and you do, I make dinner, on the days when we both work, I make dinner and on the days when I work and you don't, I still make dinner?" and our eight year old pipes up "she's got you there, dad." After that he made dinner any time I didn't feel like it.

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EtheltoTillie

EtheltoTillie

(edited)
On 1/13/2025 at 3:21 PM, Bastet said:

Yeah, I love that the term "emotional labor" is now starting to be talked about; there was an article that sparked a documentary, and now I see the term pop up in numerous comments in the "Am I The Asshole?" threads my friend sends me from Reddit.  (That place, like the rest of society, has so very many sexist assholes, but it is heartening to see replies calling out "weaponized incompetence" and women bearing the "emotional labor" burden rise to the top.)  Whatever he's physically doing (which isn't even close to 50%), she's the one keeping track of everything that needs doing and when it needs to be done.  

And, yeah, it's not just men, there are women dealing with this who don't even think about how they've been indoctrinated to frame it -- how often do we see and hear "My husband/boyfriend helps"?  No.  Help implies taking care of the house and kids is her job, with which he magnanimously assists (often only after being asked/told).  It's not, it's a shared responsibility and a fully functioning adult is perfectly capable of looking around, seeing what needs done, and fucking doing it.

It's not that simple. It is not easy for people to just drop their ingrained ways of looking at the world.  No one wants to do this stuff, so who ends up doing it or thinking about it when one person cares more, even if that caring is a result of unconscious societal influence?  I've been thinking about these feminist implications since long before you were born.

I suspect you would call my husband a sexist asshole or someone who weaponizes incompetence, and that I am indoctrinated, but I don't see it that way, as it doesn't fall on me to take up the slack.  He would rather pay someone else to do anything that he doesn't want to do.  This started even when we were in college.  He'd order a sandwich rather than cook anything so he could get back to studying.

This is partly his ingrained male perspective, but he was actually raised by wolves, so there's that.  My husband's goal in life, after escaping his difficult childhood home, was to be able to afford to do this, and he succeeded.  I enjoy this success with him.  We are very lucky.  I've never made a lot of money myself.  I first worked in publishing (a notoriously low-paying field) and now work in public-interest law.

We order a lot of take out food, we pay someone to clean.  I do the finances, he does the tech stuff.  It's a compromise that works for us.  I'm a hard-ass, so I don't take any crap if that's what you're wondering.  If our finances were different, we'd be looking at doing something else.  Maybe we'd be divorced LOL. 

 

Edited by EtheltoTillie
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Bastet

Bastet

2 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I've been thinking about these feminist implications since long before you were born.

Am I supposed to respond in kind?  I'm not going to stoop to an "Okay, Boomer" for the first time in my life; a) it's stupid and b) our respective ages are irrelevant.

3 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

as it doesn't fall on me to take up the slack.

Then that's not what is being discussed.  Your husband is "looking around, seeing what needs done, and fucking doing it" -- some he does himself and some he hires someone to do.  He doesn't expect you to do everything other than what you explicitly ask/tell him to do, which is what the emotional labor burden refers to.

(Weaponized incompetence refers to pretending not to know how to do something or doing a deliberately poor job at something when reality is that person just wants the other person to do it.)

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Bastet

Bastet

(edited)
8 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Wow, that's kind of mean.

Saying I'm not going to engage in generational conflict is mean?  I think we're misunderstanding each other somewhere along the way.

Edited: If it was "it's stupid" you're referring to, I meant that damned "Okay, Boomer" phrase.

Edited by Bastet
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fastiller

fastiller

(edited)
On 1/13/2025 at 2:02 PM, Dimity said:

Despite gains, women still do most of the housework. Will this gender gap ever narrow?

This article highlighted something I find a lot of men, and some women as well, ignore when discussions surrounding housework and childcare come up:

This.  So much this.  My husband has always been good about doing his share, sure it's nowhere near 50/50 but I can't complain.  But where I definitely do the lion's share, both when the kids were home and now is in the 'secretarial' side of things.  It's time consuming, it can be hellishly frustrating and it's constant (there is ALWAYS something).

Your use of the word 'secretarial' and the timing of your post is interesting.  At work, I've been trying to get this other employee to start answering the phones a bit more.  He just doesn't want to do it.  Our boss thinks it may be a language thing (English isn't the coworker's first language).  For background, I'm a manager, coworker is not; I make about $35k more per year.  Last week, in my capacity as a manager told the folks on the team (those responsible for manning* the phones; all except me are men) that we're returning to a roster system of primary & secondary people to answer.  We had this in effect before he was hired; staffing changes had it go by the wayside.  He balked.  As he always does whenever asked to do anything not strictly within his job description: "When I was hired it was never agreed that I will have to perform secretarial duties."  Dude: are you saying 'secretarial' duties are beneath you?** Or that they're too hard?***  Either way, not a good look.  Also, there is a metric fuck-ton of shit that I do now at work that I didn't do when I first started.  Are you saying you can't learn a new task/skill?****  This response was sent on Friday and it sat with me for the entire weekend and I'm still fucking ticked off at it.

*pun not intended, but funny, I guess
** I'm sure this is what he meant.
*** I'm sure they are.
**** He can't, apparently.

Anyway, back to the point of that article:  I lucked out with my late husband.  He was living essentially on his own from his early 20s 'til when we moved in together when he was 40, so any/all household task/chore (whether admin-related like paying bills or planning stuff, or physical like cooking & cleaning) were just a thing he did.  As they were with me.  We just fell into a groove of sharing the tasks.

22 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I did it all when I was working but one good thing about retail is working on weekends so my husband had to step up. And he was great at it most of the time. I'll never forget this one time when I came home exhausted at the end of a long day. I was struggling to get my coat off, set may bag down and all I could think about was getting out of my bra and into my jammies. My husband goes "so what's for dinner?" I looked at him and said "is that how you think this works? On the days when I don't work and you do, I make dinner, on the days when we both work, I make dinner and on the days when I work and you don't, I still make dinner?" and our eight year old pipes up "she's got you there, dad." After that he made dinner any time I didn't feel like it.

Your eight year old (or however old they are now) sounds awesome.  I think you're doing something right in how you're raising them. 

Edited by fastiller
correct spelling is important!!!
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Dimity

Dimity

4 minutes ago, fastiller said:

"When I was hired it was never agreed that I will have to perform secretarial duties." 

First off it ticks me off that secretary has become a bad word and is used in an insulting way -  most secretaries I knew back when that was the job title du jour bloody ran their companies.  But second of all I am fairly confident that his job description probably includes some variation of that lovely catch all phrase "and other duties as required". 

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peacheslatour

peacheslatour

4 minutes ago, fastiller said:

Your use of the word 'secretarial' and the timing of your post is interesting.  At work, I've been trying to get this other employee to start answering the phones a bit more.  He just doesn't want to do it.  Our boss thinks it may be a language thing (English isn't the coworker's first language).  For background, I'm a manager, coworker is not; I make about $35k more per year.  Last week, in my capacity as a manager told the folks on the team (those responsible for manning* the phones; all except me are men) that we're returning to a roster system of primary & secondary people to answer.  We had this in effect before he was hired; staffing changes had it go by the wayside.  He balked.  As he always does whenever asked to do anything not strictly within his job description: "When I was hired it was never agreed that I will have to perform secretarial duties."  Dude: are you saying 'secretarial' duties are beneath you?** Or that they're too hard?***  Either way, not a good look.  Also, there is a metric fuck-ton of shit that I do now at work that I didn't do when I first started.  Are you saying you can't learn a new task/skill?****  This response was sent on Friday and it sat with me for the entire weekend and I'm still fucking ticked off at it.

*pun not intended, but funny, I guess
** I'm sure this is what he meant.
*** I'm sure they are.
**** He can't, apparently.

Anyway, back to the point of that article:  I lucked out with my late husband.  He was living essentially on his own from his early 20s 'til when we moved in together when he was 40, so any/all household task/chore (whether admin-related like paying bills or planning stuff, or physical like cooking & cleaning) were just a thing he did.  As they were with me.  We jsut fell into a groove of sharing the tasks.

Your eight year old (or however old they are now) sounds awesome.  I think you're doing something right in how you're raising them. 

I told this story elsewhere one time and some guy asked me "You talked to your husband like that in front of your kid?" Like how dare you speak your mind in front of a child. Actually at the time , all three of us got a good laugh out of it. My son has always been a fun and funny kid. He's married now and he does all the cooking, shopping and laundry. He works from home so he can do it but his wife is the breadwinner. If we want better men and husbands for our girls, it's incumbent on us to raise our boys to see themselves and women as people first. Gender is irrelevant. 

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Bastet

Bastet

6 minutes ago, fastiller said:

He was living essentially on his own from his early 20s 'til when we moved in together when he was 40,

Which you'd think would do the trick for most people, but that's one of the disconcerting things about how prevalent the issue still is -- that it was widespread back when it was common for someone to go from their parents' home to a marital home, or from parents to college dorm to marital home was bad enough, but this is happening with men who did take care of a home when they were the only one in it.  Now there's a woman living with him and, poof, suddenly he's blind to dishes that need washing, floors that need vacuuming, a refrigerator that needs stocked, etc.

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peacheslatour

peacheslatour

27 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Wow, that's kind of mean.  I'm really shocked.  I think my post was misunderstood.  I just give up. 

I got what you were saying and I agree with you. Hey, as long as the stuff that needs doing gets done, I don't care who does it. You sound like your husband gets it.

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tearknee

tearknee

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Saying I'm not going to engage in generational conflict is mean?  I think we're misunderstanding each other somewhere along the way.

Edited: If it was "it's stupid" you're referring to, I meant that damned "Okay, Boomer" phrase.

"ageism" never made sense to me - as with taking the mick out of teenagers, it's ultimately taking the mick out of yourself as we all grow old.

Also, a person's age (and thus when they grew up and the culture and worldview, they were formed in) can actually end up being pretty harmful -- as in say court decisions -- as they are not in rhythm with what is new. People who didn't grow up with computers and the invention of the web like the Xennials, for example, has a very strange view of the WWW and its cascading consequences (and in a few decades this will apply to "us" because we will not have grown up with AI and its successors like Gen Alpha will).

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JustHereForFood

JustHereForFood

I know some women who prefer to do a lot of housework because they want it done a specific way and they would probably not get their partners to do it exactly as they want it done. I don't know enough about the details to judge whether it is intentional "weaponized incompetence" on the men's part or whether they would perform just fine and the women just want it done a very specific or perfectionist way. Probably a mix of both. I know that I wouldn't let some of the cleaning for somebody else because I need it done my way, but don't give a shit about some other stuff. As long as both people are happy with the arrangement, whatever works is fine, IMO.

I just hope that children are used for unpaid labor less than in the past.

PRgal

PRgal

25 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

I know some women who prefer to do a lot of housework because they want it done a specific way and they would probably not get their partners to do it exactly as they want it done. I don't know enough about the details to judge whether it is intentional "weaponized incompetence" on the men's part or whether they would perform just fine and the women just want it done a very specific or perfectionist way. Probably a mix of both. I know that I wouldn't let some of the cleaning for somebody else because I need it done my way, but don't give a shit about some other stuff. As long as both people are happy with the arrangement, whatever works is fine, IMO.

I just hope that children are used for unpaid labor less than in the past.

But it’s also important for kids to learn responsibility.

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