The Winchesters Anticipation

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

Probably that thought was already mentioned, but still, I've been thinking, maybe it can turn out, that 15.20 happened in AU Chuck hadn't destroyed and Dean is just on Earth now.

Or somehow after 15.19 Sam and Dean ended up in different universes and now Dean is trying to find his way back to his universe using Mary/John story 

Or in 15.20 after that vamp nonsense Dean didn't die but ended up in AU (maybe Cas was trying somehow to help, but something went wrong). Then Dean thought we was in Heaven, but when AU!Sam showed up he realized that he was alive just in AU and now Dean's on that road to find way home and Mary/John past would be some kinda key. It would explain why that place is pretty dark and why Sam cannot be there

Also Mary and John could be AU!Mary and AU!John from the universe Dean ended up in. Now Dean is trying to figure out, how things with his parents turned out to be in AU, what's the difference and what was the key point, which caused that difference between our universe and that AU. And that knowledge would help him not just come back home, but also to change some things in the present of our universe

I'm not going to expect too much with Dean's mission in the prequel. I expect him to be in a couple of minutes at most each episode. The main role in the pilot should be to set up the premise and explain how it doesn't violate canon. As far as the mission goes, I think he will be onscreen for all the episodes. The old 8 day Vancouver shoot schedule would give an intro and outro for the entire season. That's not even counting that he will probably be on set as much as his schedule allows. If we are lucky we might get an action scene or two if he has an itch. My hope is Dean is on a case, to solve it he needs to know the truth about Mary and John and he completes his mission in the end. 

I highly doubt Jensen is going to wipe away the finale, JP loves it too much. I think that's why Jensen is promoting the 10 episode last case. I am satisfied with that if it means we see Dean's a badass without Chuck's grace. What I think we will see (and the reason Jensen did this) is Dean's true feelings about things that happened on the main show and possibly correct or clarify a few things. That's why he is narrating. If he wants to soften Mary he could say something like "Mom and I didn't get off to a good start but one night out of the blue she told me how proud of me she was". I think that's Jensen's motivation, let Jared have his ending and have more power and input over Dean's ending. Again, just my hope.

[Nick24]

8 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I highly doubt Jensen is going to wipe away the finale, JP loves it too much. I think that's why Jensen is promoting the 10 episode last case. I am satisfied with that if it means we see Dean's a badass without Chuck's grace. What I think we will see (and the reason Jensen did this) is Dean's true feelings about things that happened on the main show and possibly correct or clarify a few things. That's why he is narrating. If he wants to soften Mary he could say something like "Mom and I didn't get off to a good start but one night out of the blue she told me how proud of me she was". I think that's Jensen's motivation, let Jared have his ending and have more power and input over Dean's ending. Again, just my hope.

Unfortunately, if that finale remains intact, imo the main issue with this disaster will never be solved. This is my biggest problem (transcript from 15.20):

Quote

DEAN: You knew it was always gonna end like this for me.

It was supposed to end like this, right?

Which means, that no matter what, Dean still thinks about himself as daddy's blunt instrument/good little solder, who was always supposed to die bloody. This is what has been bothering me more than anything.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

And another issue, which still remains unsolved is that according to 15.20 Dean being alive was the only reason why Sam could not have normal life

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

18 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Which means, that no matter what, Dean still thinks about himself as daddy's blunt instrument/good little solder, who was always supposed to die bloody. This is what has been bothering me more than anything.

Quoting myself. Just what was the point of Dean's character development throughout the series? He said pretty much the same in 8.14 Trial and Error (written by Dabb, btw):

Quote

DEAN: But I tell you what I do know –  it's that I'm gonna die with a gun in my hand. 'Cause that's what I have waiting for me – that's all I have waiting for me

Apparently the whole point of Dean's life was to keep Sam safe. As soon as it was no longer necessary Dean became just a burden. And if the finale stands, this is what it looks like, even if I don't agree

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

43 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Just what was the point of Dean's character development throughout the series?

Again quoting myself. Apparently all hints of character growth, Carver and Co. gave Dean in Season 10 were nullified.

From 10.16 Paint It Black

Quote

DEAN: What if I said I…I didn’t want to die…yet, you know, that I wasn’t ready?

FATHER DELANEY: Are you expecting to?

DEAN: Always. You know, the life I live, the work I do…I pretty much just figured that that was all there was to me, you know? Tear around and jam the key in the ignition and haul ass until I ran out of gas. I guess I just thought sooner or later, I’d go out the same way that I live – pedal to the metal, and that would be it.

 I mean, you know, there’s – there’s things, there’s…people, feelings that I-I-I want to experience differently than I have before, or maybe even for the first time.

What was the point of that confession after all? Or what was the point of this:

From 10.18 Book of The Damned:

Quote

DEAN: And I’m not talking just like a weekend in Vegas or sitting in some crap motel watching pay-per-porn. No, I’m talking about a beach. Drinking cervezas, go for a swim, mingle with the local wildlife. When was the last time either one of us was on a beach?

Apparently everything was pointless and it does imo remain pointless as long as the finale exists 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Morrigan2575]

I don't know what to expect from The Winchester.  To be fair any show that goes very long (over 5-7 years) has a tendency to run into issues with canon.

I hope this show will erase the finale, it was just fucking awful.  The penultimate episode is my finale. I always wanted the boys to either die together (Butch and Sundance style) or just end with them going on a hunt 

I think when the final season was announced I said my ideal ending would be a trunk closing, like how the Pilot ended...basically Sam/Dean going on a hunt. I'll take the penultimate episode with them just driving but, I reject Dean going out like a punk and Sam getting to live the life he always wanted.

[Nick24]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I hope this show will erase the finale, it was just fucking awful.  The penultimate episode is my finale.

If Jensen/Robbie don't erase 15.20, I'll accept S11 Finale as the series finale. Closing scene: Dean watching Amara/Chuck flying away. Credits.

[MAK]

On 5/24/2022 at 6:05 PM, Hana Chan said:

Very simple... because SPN was what it was because of both Sam and Dean as characters and Jared and Jensen as actors. Jensen latching onto the legacy for himself did anger a lot of people, though I will argue that after seeing that dumpster fire of a trailer, most JP fans are thrilled that he's not going to have anything to do with it.

Why does no one ever ask the question of why Jensen wasn't talking to Jared about a prequel/sequel/whatever when SPN was ending?

According to Jared, he started thinking about Walker during SPN S14. Jensen had talks with WB about his future during hiatus between S14 and S15. The series was picked up even before SPN S15 started shooting. If he really wanted a part of SPN legacy, he would have been talking to Kripke himself, with or without Jensen. He obviously never did. So saying that Jensen "latching" on to it is wrong. Is Jared only interested because Jensen is? If Jensen hadn't done anything, would Jared have done anything SPN related? He seemed pretty intomthr Walker story even back then.

Supposedly idea for prequel didn't happen until COVID lockdown, when he discussed it with Danneel. He could have easily discussed it with Jared instead. They could have formed their own company. Obviously, at least one of them didn't want to. 

Isn't it possible that Jensen had mentioned continuing SPN to Jared, and Jared didn't show any interest? So Jensen went ahead on his own. And why not? If you mention a project to your best friend, they show zero interest or enthusiasm, why can't you do it without them? They really have no reason to get angry for "excluding" them.

Jared seemed pretty determined to shed "Sam Winchester" after S15. He kept saying he didn't want to work in front of the camera anymore. He changed his mind or his mind was changed, all good. His choice.

Throughout conventions, interviews, etc. it was always Jensen who showed more interest in keeping the SPN legacy. Jared pretty much talked about it like "just a job." A very long-term, job and a special character, but a job nevertheless. 

Also, yes SPN was what it was because of Jensen and Jared. If one of the brothers had been killed off, the show would lasted maybe one more season before ending. But The Winchesters isn't SPN. It just has the same mythology. It's wrong to compare SPN with it. 

[Lastcall]

I watched the JP interview with Michael Rosenbaum and it sounded to me like the prequel controversy was way worse then we were told. Jared was very careful with his words but said the phone call had laughs and tears and that it came to a point (like in families) where you have to decide to make things right or part ways. He said they decided to make it right. I don't know what that entails, if Jensen directing Walker was part of that, if it is the reunion show they both talk about or Jared's tweet to everyone to calm down. I take him at his word that they resolved it and I do believe they are still friends but I don't think Jared is happy about this prequel at all. If I saw that then I know the Sam/Jared stans did and will hound this show until they get the prequel cancelled. 

I think they are choosing to ignore this area which may have ramifications at creation. I've been hoping we will find out more about the prequel at the panels next weekend but it may be one of those topics that gets banned (not that it will stop everyone from asking). I hope I am being hypersensitive and Jared wants to make a cameo or support the prequel however he can but if not that is just another obstacle this show will have to overcome. 

[Nick24]

11 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

 I don't think Jared is happy about this prequel at all

When Jensen was unhappy about SPN finale, Jared didn't care at all. Why should Jensen? *

*I guess it's rhetorical question 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't know what to expect from The Winchester.  To be fair any show that goes very long (over 5-7 years) has a tendency to run into issues with canon.

I hope this show will erase the finale, it was just fucking awful.  The penultimate episode is my finale. I always wanted the boys to either die together (Butch and Sundance style) or just end with them going on a hunt 

I think when the final season was announced I said my ideal ending would be a trunk closing, like how the Pilot ended...basically Sam/Dean going on a hunt. I'll take the penultimate episode with them just driving but, I reject Dean going out like a punk and Sam getting to live the life he always wanted.

Basically this.  Unfortunately I doubt we'll get a change in the finale but may make it seem less finale if we can have knowledge that Dean is still fighting the good fight.  I really only expect the mission to be a framing device, a reason for telling John and Mary's story, but Dean will have a purpose.  

The thing is I think originally it was supposed to take place between 15.19 and 15.20, while Dean was still alive so if they changed that then the context changes a bit too and actually I like the idea kind of better if this is him after 15.20 because again, Dean is existing and doing things, not just aimlessly driving around Heaven.

[Lastcall]

51 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

When Jensen was unhappy about SPN finale, Jared didn't care at all. Why should Jensen? *

*I guess it's rhetorical question 

I think that is part of the problem. Jared had Dabb's ear and got pretty much everything he wanted in the finale while Jensen couldn't even get Dabb to answer a question. That's why Jensen was so initially frustrated with the finale, he had no input and was told this is how it is. The only power Jensen had with Dabb was not renewing his contract. I see why Jared would be worried that Jensen will now have all the power in the new show and can change things however he wants. I think this is why there is a prequel. Jensen has years' worth of stories he wants to tell and things he wants to communicate about Dean, John and Mary that no one would ever listen to. 

I have heard the leaked script was pretty accurate. The twitter fiasco could explain why it went from Dean telling the story from the bunker to Dean on a mission. I think the only tricky thing about Sam in the show is that Jared wants no part of it. I don't think Jared wants the show to succeed because some might think Sam isn't necessary to the show's success. I would also bet that Jensen promised Jared he wouldn't ruin Sam's finale ending. So, I really hope this means that Dean's now is set after the finale somehow, doesn't change the finale but enables Dean's story to continue (and maybe set up the reunion short order series).

[Aithne]

I think what makes it tricky is that Dabb set it up so Dean not only died, but we followed decades afterward of Sam alone til his own death. So unless that ending does change somehow, we either need to jump decades into the future for a sequel (ie, both guys resurrected, presumably at the ages they died if it works as it did in LR, which is gonna make Sam pretty useless), or there's something Dean was doing, aside from driving around in Heaven, that Sam never found out about. Dabb's made it tough to continue Dean's story, but he's made it nigh-impossible to work Sam into it. 

That being the case, I'd assumed any sequel was going to come from an altered timeline where Dean didn't die, but if Sam's ending is to remain unchanged... yeah. I don't know how that could work. 

[Pondlass1]

I’m wondering what the basic premise will be for weekly episodes. It has to be more than John finds out about monsters and joins Mary on a hunt each week. Supernatural was always more about a tangled brotherly tragedy than any ongoing supernatural dilemma. The messed up dynamic between Sam and Dean is what kept me coming back.  How is Jensen going to keep the adventures of young married couple in love fight monsters interesting? 
I do wish him well, of course. But the story of John’s spiral to obsessive bastard dad and Dean’s violent and lost childhood would be so much more fascinating (to me)

If only we could time travel actors Jensen and Jeff back to the past. 😀

[Morrigan2575]

43 minutes ago, Aithne said:

think what makes it tricky is that Dabb set it up so Dean not only died, but we followed decades afterward of Sam alone til his own death. So unless that ending does change somehow, we either need to jump decades into the future for a sequel (ie, both guys resurrected, presumably at the ages they died if it works as it did in LR, which is gonna make Sam pretty useless), or there's something Dean was doing, aside from driving around in Heaven, that Sam never found out about. Dabb's made it tough to continue Dean's story, but he's made it nigh-impossible to work Sam into it. 

If there ever was an SPN reprisal, they could do it. We know from Bobby that Jack rescued Castiel and fixed Heaven. We could find out that at some point Jack sends Dean  back to Earth for a mission and Dean drags Sam into it (not realizing how much time has passed) but, by then Sam already has his family. At the end of the limited series, Sam returns to his family with a friendly mindwipe of Dean's resurrection.  Dean goes about being a Hunter while Sam is decidedly out of the game. At some, point in the future both die after living their various lives and, reunite in Heaven. I don't remember who got to the bridge first but that would indicate the order of their final deaths.

[MAK]

1 hour ago, Aithne said:

I think what makes it tricky is that Dabb set it up so Dean not only died, but we followed decades afterward of Sam alone til his own death.

Fortunately, Chuck said he "controls time and space," so now Jack does.

Jack could, within canon, resurrect Dean in the barn. Probably not going to happen. But, resurrection of Dean in "past" is possible. 

[Nick24]

10 minutes ago, MAK said:

Fortunately, Chuck said he "controls time and space," so now Jack does.

Jack could, within canon, resurrect Dean in the barn. Probably not going to happen. But, resurrection of Dean in "past" is possible. 

He could. But that means ruining the finale (yes, please!). And if Jensen really promised Jared not to do it, this isn't going to happen. 

Actually, there is no way and no point in SPN S16 without ruining 15.20. Because imo the most obvious way to come back for 10 eps with remaining 15.20 intact is to make it between 15.19 and 15.20, but this won't solve any of the issues I pointed out in my previous posts. But I guess Jensen and Robbie might have better working imagination and they could come out with some other unexpected way.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Aithne]

34 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I’m wondering what the basic premise will be for weekly episodes. It has to be more than John finds out about monsters and joins Mary on a hunt each week. Supernatural was always more about a tangled brotherly tragedy than any ongoing supernatural dilemma. The messed up dynamic between Sam and Dean is what kept me coming back.  How is Jensen going to keep the adventures of young married couple in love fight monsters interesting? 
I do wish him well, of course. But the story of John’s spiral to obsessive bastard dad and Dean’s violent and lost childhood would be so much more fascinating (to me)

If only we could time travel actors Jensen and Jeff back to the past. 😀

Well, they've only just met, and we know (or think we know) that there was a lot of tension between them (per the Cupid in 5.14). We also know that John found hunting traumatizing when he first started, even apart from Mary's death (per his words to Dean in 2.1), and that he always hoped for an endpoint to it (per his words to Sam in... uh... DMB, I think?). He never really adapted to it the way Dean did, finding happiness and pleasure along the way. 

All that to say, Mary and John may not have a smooth road here. Could be they are a really good match all other things being equal, but John's personality isn't suited to hunting, and it starts gnawing at him and changing him. 

But yes, the John and Dean story is always the most fascinating to me - childhood, Stanford years, and of course, what we got in the show. That relationship is the beating heart of this show to me, short as its onscreen presence was. 

[tessathereaper]

44 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I’m wondering what the basic premise will be for weekly episodes. It has to be more than John finds out about monsters and joins Mary on a hunt each week. Supernatural was always more about a tangled brotherly tragedy than any ongoing supernatural dilemma. The messed up dynamic between Sam and Dean is what kept me coming back.  How is Jensen going to keep the adventures of young married couple in love fight monsters interesting? 
I do wish him well, of course. But the story of John’s spiral to obsessive bastard dad and Dean’s violent and lost childhood would be so much more fascinating (to me)

If only we could time travel actors Jensen and Jeff back to the past. 😀

Well many of the same issues facing Dean and Sam face John and Mary.  Under it all the reason Dean and Sam's lives were so fucked up is because they were Chuck's "endgame", for his story, his apocalypse, John and Mary were also needed for that endgame, so they too would be the victims of various strategems(by angels, demons, and anything else or anyone else Chuck wanted to use) to make sure that Dean and Sam were in place.  Just like with Dean and Sam, loving each other doesn't necessarily mean it's perfect.

And I really like the idea people are going with that John wasn't really suited to hunting, his temperament, etc and it started to change him in unhealthy ways.

Edited May 25, 2022 by tessathereaper

[Aithne]

31 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

If there ever was an SPN reprisal, they could do it. We know from Bobby that Jack rescued Castiel and fixed Heaven. We could find out that at some point Jack sends Dean  back to Earth for a mission and Dean drags Sam into it (not realizing how much time has passed) but, by then Sam already has his family. At the end of the limited series, Sam returns to his family with a friendly mindwipe of Dean's resurrection.  Dean goes about being a Hunter while Sam is decidedly out of the game. At some, point in the future both die after living their various lives and, reunite in Heaven. I don't remember who got to the bridge first but that would indicate the order of their final deaths.

Ah, that's a really good point. I could see them doing that. 

[MAK]

8 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Actually, there is no way and no point in SPN S16 without ruining 15.20. Because imo the most obvious way to come back for 10 eps with remaining 15.20 intact is to make it between 15.19 and 15.20, but this won't solve any of the issues I pointed out in my previous posts.

I was thinking more the resurrection was for the mission in the prequel.

But I guess they could use it for the 10 episode Sam and Dean show too. That resurrection could happen after Sam dies, and they are both resurrected in the past to take care of some threat.

I didn't hate 15.20, but it definitely would be better if it hadn't happened. 

[Nick24]

37 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

If there ever was an SPN reprisal, they could do it. We know from Bobby that Jack rescued Castiel and fixed Heaven. We could find out that at some point Jack sends Dean  back to Earth for a mission and Dean drags Sam into it (not realizing how much time has passed) but, by then Sam already has his family. At the end of the limited series, Sam returns to his family with a friendly mindwipe of Dean's resurrection.  Dean goes about being a Hunter while Sam is decidedly out of the game. At some, point in the future both die after living their various lives and, reunite in Heaven. I don't remember who got to the bridge first but that would indicate the order of their final deaths.

Interesting idea and actually might work! But what would be the point of the mindwipe of Dean's resurrection? Why couldn't they just live their own lives?

[Nick24]

6 minutes ago, MAK said:

But I guess they could use it for the 10 episode Sam and Dean show too. That resurrection could happen after Sam dies, and they are both resurrected in the past to take care of some threat.

I am all in for it. But if they are resurrected in the past, that will erase everything what happened after 15.20 (incl. Sam's new family), which leads us again to ruining 15.20

ETA: Instead "after 15.20'' I meant after Dean's death

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, Aithne said:

I think what makes it tricky is that Dabb set it up so Dean not only died, but we followed decades afterward of Sam alone til his own death. So unless that ending does change somehow, we either need to jump decades into the future for a sequel (ie, both guys resurrected, presumably at the ages they died if it works as it did in LR, which is gonna make Sam pretty useless), or there's something Dean was doing, aside from driving around in Heaven, that Sam never found out about. Dabb's made it tough to continue Dean's story, but he's made it nigh-impossible to work Sam into it. 

That being the case, I'd assumed any sequel was going to come from an altered timeline where Dean didn't die, but if Sam's ending is to remain unchanged... yeah. I don't know how that could work. 

My pitch for the revival series. Starts at the end of the finale, Sam wakes up in a start and driving to the vampire barn and realizes it was a vision. He stops Dean's death and tells him about the vision. Dean tries to blow it off. Next time Sam is asleep he has a vision of Dean dying in a more ridiculous way. The storyline is why is Sam having visions and why does he keep seeing their entire future after Dean's deaths. Simple.

Robbie Thompson has had two years to come up with something way better then that.

[MAK]

44 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

I am all in for it. But if they are resurrected in the past, that will erase everything what happened after 15.20 (incl. Sam's new family), which leads us again to ruining 15.20

It wouldn't necessarily ruin anything of Sam's life post 15.20.

I would think the 10 episode revival would be a temporary mission oriented resurrection, in past or future, after the bridge scene. They wouldn't live out their whole lives again. Just take care of stuff and return to Heaven. That way they can keep their (actors') actual ages.

Edited May 25, 2022 by MAK
Spelling

[Nick24]

56 minutes ago, MAK said:

It wouldn't necessarily ruin anything of Sam's life post 15.20.

I would think the 10 episode revival would be a temporary mission oriented resurrection, in past or future, after the bridge scene. They wouldn't livenout their whole lives again. Just take care of stuff and return to Heaven. That way they can keep their (actors') actual ages.

IDK.  IMO it would be kinda pointless. Just revival for the sake of revival. Of course, I'll be watching anyway, but I am afraid I won't be too excited, because none of the important issues will be solved

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

Unfortunately, I doubt they would even try to solve any issues. The 10 episode thing would be just nostalgia for the actors and fans.

I will watch too, but I won't have any expectations except a really long case that involves multiple hunts.

[Nick24]

31 minutes ago, MAK said:

Unfortunately, I doubt they would even try to solve any issues. The 10 episode thing would be just nostalgia for the actors and fans.

I will watch too, but I won't have any expectations except a really long case that involves multiple hunts.

That's the saddest part.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[ahrtee]

Sorry...but what I don't understand is why Jared thinks the ending is so good.  The only positive I can think of (if that's what he was looking for) is that it's the final-final end of Dean, but still leaves room for the further adventures of Sam during the decades that followed.  

Jared may have had a good "farewell to Dean" scene, though I think Jensen's death scene outshone that.  And the rest of the show didn't give Jared anything to really sink his teeth into, acting-wise, and didn't seem to do much for the character, either.

Sam didn't seem to have a very happy or fulfilling life.  He may have reproduced, but didn't seem to take much joy in either his wife/SO or son.  The vast majority of scenes showed Sam either still mourning or doing something (walking the kid, helping with homework) that seemed particularly joyless.  And I can't believe Jared approved of that wig!  

So basically, the Winchester story ended with a whimper.  Why would Jared be happy with that, and why not want something better to leave with?

Edited May 25, 2022 by ahrtee
Additional thoughts/clarification.

[Nick24]

25 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So basically, the Winchester story ended with a whimper.  Why would Jared be happy with that, and why not want something better to leave with?

Maybe he was in love with the opening montage , where Sam was shown as a decent healthy man, caring about his room, whereas Dean wasn't even capable of cleaning up his bed. Never mind, that Dean was the one, who was caring about the bunker in the first place, who was making his own room and talking about its cleanliness in 8.14 Trial and Error, whereas Sam was behaving like a jerk back there (oh, and ironically, 8.14 was written by Dabb too)

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

Also those big montages served imo as propping up his new project (+ his fight in the barn, where Dean didn't get even one kill IIRC). IMO JP did not care about his character, because Sam's ending wasn't much better.

ETA: Also he might've wanted to point out once again , who was the main character in his opinion and whose goal was  just to support the ''actual'' lead's journey

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Lastcall]

36 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry...but what I don't understand is why Jared thinks the ending is so good.  The only positive I can think of (if that's what he was looking for) is that it's the final-final end of Dean, but still leaves room for the further adventures of Sam during the decades that followed.  

Jared may have had a good "farewell to Dean" scene, though I think Jensen's death scene outshone that.  And the rest of the show didn't give Jared anything to really sink his teeth into, acting-wise, and didn't seem to do much for the character, either.

Sam didn't seem to have a very happy or fulfilling life.  He may have reproduced, but didn't seem to take much joy in either his wife/SO or son.  The vast majority of scenes showed Sam either still mourning or doing something (walking the kid, helping with homework) that seemed particularly joyless.  And I can't believe Jared approved of that wig!  

So basically, the Winchester story ended with a whimper.  Why would Jared be happy with that, and why not want something better to leave with?

He used to say before the finale that he liked a story to have an end so he doesn't have to wonder what the characters are doing now. He particularly wanted Sam to die but preferred that they both did. The ending he got was definitive and it gave Sam the normal life he wanted since the first episode. I don't think he was planning a solo Sam show or even thought it kept the door open for one. 

I think all of this happened because he thought he put the show to bed and had moved on then a year later Supernatural was back without him. He also didn't have any information on it and I think he was scared that Jensen might override things he liked or fought for with Dabb. I don't know if Jensen eased those fears because Jared has been shown support for Jensen but I haven't seen anything that supports the show. So I will be happy if there are tweets encouraging fans to watch or that the show has his blessing.

[Nick24]

7 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

 The ending he got was definitive and it gave Sam the normal life he wanted since the first episode.

But Sam hadn't wanted normal life anymore since Season 9, I guess. And in Season 10 he said in 10.18 that he loved his life as it was. 

[Nick24]

13 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

So I will be happy if there are tweets encouraging fans to watch or that the show has his blessing.

I do not think, that the prequel needs JP's blessing. People who want to watch this show will watch anyway. People who want to hate it will hate no matter what.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Interesting idea and actually might work! But what would be the point of the mindwipe of Dean's resurrection? Why couldn't they just live their own lives?

Just to line it up with the Sam montage in the finale. 😁

[Nick24]

18 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Just to line it up with the Sam montage in the finale. 😁

You have definitely thought out this! A+ 😉

[Lastcall]

32 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

But Sam hadn't wanted normal life anymore since Season 9, I guess. And in Season 10 he said in 10.18 that he loved his life as it was. 

He's also said the only reason he was hunting was because of Dean (which is proven in the finale). But what Sam wanted doesn't matter, it's what Jared wanted in the finale and I think he liked the symmetry. In the end Sam got to live a normal life and raise a super son that was probably the best of Sam and Dean.

I could be wrong about Jared wanting to continue the show. Dabb was desperate for a spin off and when Jared learned about the ending it was when he was planning on retiring for acting. I could see him thinking about producing a Sam's Dean show with Dabb and maybe they were keeping that in their back pocket. He just never figured Jensen would do a show and beat him to the punch that quick. It could add to the fear that ruining the finale would ruin the son show somehow.

[FlickChick]

20 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

He's also said the only reason he was hunting was because of Dean (which is proven in the finale). But what Sam wanted doesn't matter, it's what Jared wanted in the finale and I think he liked the symmetry. In the end Sam got to live a normal life and raise a super son that was probably the best of Sam and Dean.

I could be wrong about Jared wanting to continue the show. Dabb was desperate for a spin off and when Jared learned about the ending it was when he was planning on retiring for acting. I could see him thinking about producing a Sam's Dean show with Dabb and maybe they were keeping that in their back pocket. He just never figured Jensen would do a show and beat him to the punch that quick. It could add to the fear that ruining the finale would ruin the son show somehow.

I know you're talking about Jared here, but I can't imagine why ANYONE would want to work on a show with Dabb who has no business being the producer/showrunner of anything. Anyone who treats a lead actor the way he treated Jensen should be drummed out of the business. Period!!!!! And if Jared did want what you mentioned, IMO, he's no friend to Jensen at all.

[Nick24]

40 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I could be wrong about Jared wanting to continue the show. Dabb was desperate for a spin off and when Jared learned about the ending it was when he was planning on retiring for acting. I could see him thinking about producing a Sam's Dean show with Dabb and maybe they were keeping that in their back pocket. He just never figured Jensen would do a show and beat him to the punch that quick. It could add to the fear that ruining the finale would ruin the son show somehow.

Even thinking about it makes my head hurt. IMO Jared has no idea, how good writer/producer/showrunner should work.

16 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I know you're talking about Jared here, but I can't imagine why ANYONE would want to work on a show with Dabb who has no business being the producer/showrunner of anything. Anyone who treats a lead actor the way he treated Jensen should be drummed out of the business. Period!!!!! And if Jared did want what you mentioned, IMO, he's no friend to Jensen at all.

I am here with you. After what Dabb and his bastards gang writers team did to SPN, even considering working with him is shameful.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

You know, if someone wants to ruin the show, they definitely should hire Andrew Dabb. He's proven to be a professional at it. Actually, I think Dabb should write a manual ''How do you ruin a successful show? Tips and personal experience''. This might become a bestseller.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

9 hours ago, Lastcall said:

He used to say before the finale that he liked a story to have an end so he doesn't have to wonder what the characters are doing now. He particularly wanted Sam to die but preferred that they both did. The ending he got was definitive and it gave Sam the normal life he wanted since the first episode. I don't think he was planning a solo Sam show or even thought it kept the door open for one. 

8 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I could be wrong about Jared wanting to continue the show. Dabb was desperate for a spin off and when Jared learned about the ending it was when he was planning on retiring for acting. I could see him thinking about producing a Sam's Dean show with Dabb and maybe they were keeping that in their back pocket. He just never figured Jensen would do a show and beat him to the punch that quick. It could add to the fear that ruining the finale would ruin the son show somehow

These two things. It always seemed that Jared wanted SPN to end with no chance of continuation. With Sam as the protagonist of the "hero's journey," the story starting with his birth and ending with his death. (Perhaps that was Kripke's original intention, but even Kripke realized, very early on, that what he started was not what it became.)

Jared had already (probably) started his production company in S14 when he went after Walker. If Jensen had ever mentioned continuing SPN, Jared probably didn't take him seriously (and showed no interest) since Jensen hadn't formed a production company yet, and  was focusing on Batman, Radio Company, and the brewery. Jensen starting talks with Kripke even before the end of S15, and WB backing J & D company was probably a surprise for Jared.

News of The Winchesters was really out of nowhere for everyone, especially Jared. If he wanted a Dean Jr and Sam show, he probably thought he had time. Maybe he had actually talked to Robbie Thompson about it and he declined. (Which would explain his "Et tu Brute" tweet.) Jared may or may not have wanted to include Dabb. He seems to be closer to Jeremy Carver.

Just to add, sorry if this is the wrong thread. 

[Nick24]

I have been thinking about the demons in the trailer. Of course, they can create an independent SL. But they also might tie this up with Azazel and his plans somehow or even with Abaddon. I remember, we were told in 9.17 Mother's Little Helper, that Abaddon had factories for turning human souls into demons all over the world. Maybe one of those factories was in Laurence. This would explain the connection with Henry and the MoL, because Henry had visited one factory, where Abaddon possessed Josie. I guess this could open some interesting opportunities for the story.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Nick24

[Hana Chan]

21 hours ago, Lastcall said:

If I saw that then I know the Sam/Jared stans did and will hound this show until they get the prequel cancelled. 

I think that you're giving us far too much credit. Most of us (myself included) just won't watch. The show will succeed or fail without us. Beyond being somewhat offended that Jensen has grabbed onto the first really viable spinoff opportunity to feature himself alone (and without his "brother") while apparently trying to fix what he feels was deficient in the show's storylines, I'm just not interested in the rehashing of the John and Mary story again. It's low hanging fruit that does little (if anything) to build on the world that the original series created.

And I'm going to give Jared a lot of credit (more that he'll ever get here) that he's being very supportive of Jensen's efforts now that they've hashed out the dispute over Jared being blindsided and shut out. I'm not going to go into the ill-advised tweets from Jared again (as I've already said repeatedly that as upset as he might have been at the moment, it was the wrong way to handle things) but it doesn't excuse the idiocy on Jensen's part to not make sure that his "brother" was aware of his project, that for the time being Jared would not have a part to play and at least make sure that his costar and acting partner of the past 15 years wasn't completely shut out. It was an unforced error that ensure that the very extra SPN fandom would end up divided and he would lose a portion of the audience that he very much needs to hang out and at least give his show a chance to win them over. Whether of not Jared ever has a part to play in TW means nothing to me because I'm just not interested in the premise and I don't like how this all played out. And I will agree that I don't think that Jared wants anything to do with it at this stage.

5 hours ago, MAK said:

It always seemed that Jared wanted SPN to end with no chance of continuation. 

Jared has said many times that he was very open to revisiting the show at some point. He spoke before that he wanted to see an ending where Dean and Sam went out in a blaze of glory together, but that he was happy with the ending as it played out. There's no crime there.

And I wouldn't blame Jensen for not being thrilled with the conclusion. But I do want to put it out there that Kripke originally intended "Swan Song" to be the series finale, which would have ended the show with Sam trapped in hell forever after sacrificing himself, while Dean got to go on to his apple pie life. That the only reason why the episode ended with Sam watching through the window was because the network had already renewed SPN for a sixth season. Would anyone have blamed Jared and his fans for being upset if the show's conclusion had played out like that? That Sam's reward for saving the world was an eternity of torture while Dean got to live on with bendy Linda? Or if afterwards, Jared launched the first spinoff without Jensen in order to "fix" what he felt was wrong about his character's conclusion? 

I really want to give both Jared and Jensen the benefit of the doubt and just as I can criticize Jared for his poor reaction to getting the news (even if I do agree that he felt that he was blindsided by it), I can also criticize Jensen for how he played this out and the total used teabag that TW looks like it's going to be.

[Nick24]

Honest question without any subtext: why people who are not going to watch the show and who are not interested in it are spending their time on talking about it?

28 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And I wouldn't blame Jensen for not being thrilled with the conclusion. But I do want to put it out there that Kripke originally intended "Swan Song" to be the series finale, which would have ended the show with Sam trapped in hell forever after sacrificing himself, while Dean got to go on to his apple pie life. 

No one outside Mr Kripke knows, what Swan Song would have looked like as an actual series finale. Mr Kripke didn't even write the story for 5.22

Edited May 26, 2022 by Nick24

[Hana Chan]

7 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Honest question without any subtext: why people who are not going to watch the show and who are not interested in it are spending their time for talking about it?

For me, because I love SPN. I've watched it from Day One and am deeply invested. I was looking forward to seeing what possible spinoffs might happen and I'm allowed to express that I'm disappointed with TW and not happy with how the whole thing played out. I'm sure that there are many who only want to see positive responses, but those of us who aren't pleased should be allowed to express that as well.

[Nick24]

8 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

For me, because I love SPN. I've watched it from Day One and am deeply invested. I was looking forward to seeing what possible spinoffs might happen and I'm allowed to express that I'm disappointed with TW and not happy with how the whole thing played out. I'm sure that there are many who only want to see positive responses, but those of us who aren't pleased should be allowed to express that as well.

Fair enough. But I never said, that negative feedback shouldn't be allowed. 

ETA: I just do not see much point in it, because no one outside the producers knows, what the prequel will look like and how all the thing will be played out. But that's just me.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Nick24

[Lastcall]

5 hours ago, MAK said:

These two things. It always seemed that Jared wanted SPN to end with no chance of continuation. With Sam as the protagonist of the "hero's journey," the story starting with his birth and ending with his death. (Perhaps that was Kripke's original intention, but even Kripke realized, very early on, that what he started was not what it became.)

Jared had already (probably) started his production company in S14 when he went after Walker. If Jensen had ever mentioned continuing SPN, Jared probably didn't take him seriously (and showed no interest) since Jensen hadn't formed a production company yet, and  was focusing on Batman, Radio Company, and the brewery. Jensen starting talks with Kripke even before the end of S15, and WB backing J & D company was probably a surprise for Jared.

News of The Winchesters was really out of nowhere for everyone, especially Jared. If he wanted a Dean Jr and Sam show, he probably thought he had time. Maybe he had actually talked to Robbie Thompson about it and he declined. (Which would explain his "Et tu Brute" tweet.) Jared may or may not have wanted to include Dabb. He seems to be closer to Jeremy Carver.

Just to add, sorry if this is the wrong thread. 

From everything I have seen, Jared's plan was to be a producer, control the stories and have Jensen as his star. Robbie may have figured into his Walker plans as well. I think Jensen declined and Pedowitz gave Jared such a sweetheart deal that he decided to do it all himself. I don't think he was considering doing anything SPN related immediately because he hadn't even talked to Kripke at that point. When he heard Jensen was starting his own production company, he probably thought he was following a similar path. 

Jensen seemed to have a plan from the start. He said he wouldn't renew and the show ended. The first thing he did was ally with WarnerMedia and Kripke then plan the SPN prequel. He hired Robbie who has his own issues with the amount of power he had over stories on SPN and created a show where he could play Dean as little or as much as he wants. Jared wasn't int he loop for any of this so I understand why he was upset but he should have handled that privately.

7 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And I wouldn't blame Jensen for not being thrilled with the conclusion. But I do want to put it out there that Kripke originally intended "Swan Song" to be the series finale, which would have ended the show with Sam trapped in hell forever after sacrificing himself, while Dean got to go on to his apple pie life. That the only reason why the episode ended with Sam watching through the window was because the network had already renewed SPN for a sixth season. Would anyone have blamed Jared and his fans for being upset if the show's conclusion had played out like that? That Sam's reward for saving the world was an eternity of torture while Dean got to live on with bendy Linda? Or if afterwards, Jared launched the first spinoff without Jensen in order to "fix" what he felt was wrong about his character's conclusion? 

I don't think if Kripke had his true ending that Dean would have an apple pie life. I always heard the plan was Sam and Dean ending up trapped in the cage.

The only reason I care about the Jared situation is because it does affect the prequel and I want it to have the best chance possible. The twitter thing hurt the announcement and tarnished what should have been a happy occasion. To everyone's credit, the issue was resolved but Jared does have some power in this. If he trashes the prequel it makes the news and his fans will actively campaign against it. If he says nothing then the damage is done and it won't cause more. If he supports the show, he could win some Sam fans back and the prequel has a better chance for success. Also, if the show is a sore spot then it's highly unlikely he will ever do a cameo or guest spot which would have made at least some fans happy. 

I did go back to the Michael Rosenbaum podcast (IMO the best resource for behind the scenes Hollywood stories) and the only things more popular then the Jensen interviews were the two Smallville reunion interviews with Tom Welling and Kristin Kreuk. He was near double the Jared views and quadruple the Misha views. So I felt a little better. Jensen fans might be enough to make the prequel a success. I would just like it so much better if the entire SPN community united behind this show. 

[Aeryn13]

37 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I think that you're giving us far too much credit. Most of us (myself included) just won't watch. The show will succeed or fail without us. Beyond being somewhat offended that Jensen has grabbed onto the first really viable spinoff opportunity to feature himself alone (and without his "brother") while apparently trying to fix what he feels was deficient in the show's storylines, I'm just not interested in the rehashing of the John and Mary story again. It's low hanging fruit that does little (if anything) to build on the world that the original series created.

And I'm going to give Jared a lot of credit (more that he'll ever get here) that he's being very supportive of Jensen's efforts now that they've hashed out the dispute over Jared being blindsided and shut out. I'm not going to go into the ill-advised tweets from Jared again (as I've already said repeatedly that as upset as he might have been at the moment, it was the wrong way to handle things) but it doesn't excuse the idiocy on Jensen's part to not make sure that his "brother" was aware of his project, that for the time being Jared would not have a part to play and at least make sure that his costar and acting partner of the past 15 years wasn't completely shut out. It was an unforced error that ensure that the very extra SPN fandom would end up divided and he would lose a portion of the audience that he very much needs to hang out and at least give his show a chance to win them over. Whether of not Jared ever has a part to play in TW means nothing to me because I'm just not interested in the premise and I don't like how this all played out. And I will agree that I don't think that Jared wants anything to do with it at this stage.

Jared has said many times that he was very open to revisiting the show at some point. He spoke before that he wanted to see an ending where Dean and Sam went out in a blaze of glory together, but that he was happy with the ending as it played out. There's no crime there.

And I wouldn't blame Jensen for not being thrilled with the conclusion. But I do want to put it out there that Kripke originally intended "Swan Song" to be the series finale, which would have ended the show with Sam trapped in hell forever after sacrificing himself, while Dean got to go on to his apple pie life. That the only reason why the episode ended with Sam watching through the window was because the network had already renewed SPN for a sixth season. Would anyone have blamed Jared and his fans for being upset if the show's conclusion had played out like that? That Sam's reward for saving the world was an eternity of torture while Dean got to live on with bendy Linda? Or if afterwards, Jared launched the first spinoff without Jensen in order to "fix" what he felt was wrong about his character's conclusion? 

I really want to give both Jared and Jensen the benefit of the doubt and just as I can criticize Jared for his poor reaction to getting the news (even if I do agree that he felt that he was blindsided by it), I can also criticize Jensen for how he played this out and the total used teabag that TW looks like it's going to be.

To this day I think if Season 5 had been the end, Dean would have not been thrown out of the story and both would have jumped into the cage with their respective archangels. I would have been fine with that ending. And if I were a Sam-fan, I would have been thrilled that my guy got the heroic world save and the big martyrdom. What is not to love about that?

My beef with the Series Finale is not at all that Dean died but how he died. Randomely taken out as soon as Chuck was gone - we all know what that impies, in the most humiliating manner possible, with no acknowledgment and no legacy and his final words were once again denigrating himself as a weak loser while Sam was the end all, be all.

And Jared`s comment about Dean`s "success story" later hammered exactly that home. He liked the ending in a "meeeeee"-centric way. Which, fine, but I don`t have to care about "hiiiiiimmmm" and his fee-fees either. If it`s everyone out for themselves, okay. 

I don`t think the spin-off, sadly, will change anything about the ending. Just because seriously how would it? I just don`t care if it tramples over Badd`s stupid show either. There are some things it could do. Maybe present a likeable Mary? 

Maybe the prequel will succeed, maybe it will fail. I don`t even know if I will like it. It`s insanely hard for a show to even get greenlit, get one Season and possibly go beyond that. What pleases me in an admittedly petty way is that Badd`s attempts all crashed and the network greenlit this one.   

Or maybe the idea is indeed to do limited-run Seasons of various characters/stories. Who knows.    

[Nick24]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

To this day I think if Season 5 had been the end, Dean would have not been thrown out of the story and both would have jumped into the cage with their respective archangels. I would have been fine with that ending. And if I were a Sam-fan, I would have been thrilled that my guy got the heroic world save and the big martyrdom. What is not to love about that?

My beef with the Series Finale is not at all that Dean died but how he died. Randomely taken out as soon as Chuck was gone - we all know what that impies, in the most humiliating manner possible, with no acknowledgment and no legacy and his final words were once again denigrating himself as a weak loser while Sam was the end all, be all.

And Jared`s comment about Dean`s "success story" later hammered exactly that home. He liked the ending in a "meeeeee"-centric way. Which, fine, but I don`t have to care about "hiiiiiimmmm" and his fee-fees either. If it`s everyone out for themselves, okay. 

This 100000x!!!!

[Nick24]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

My beef with the Series Finale is not at all that Dean died but how he died. Randomely taken out as soon as Chuck was gone - we all know what that impies, in the most humiliating manner possible, with no acknowledgment and no legacy and his final words were once again denigrating himself as a weak loser while Sam was the end all, be all.

Whereas Sam did not even bother to comfort his dying brother.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Nick24