You and I are going to change the world: Grishaverse Book Discussion

[absnow54]

Someone please come up with a better topic name! It seems about time to start a book talk thread, since SO many things were changed or added to the show.

I'll start. I love everything they added to the Crow's story. I really think they could have carried their own series with various Grisha-verse related heists. I mean they barely even touched any of the original content from the books (Nina and Matthias excluded) in the first season, and had no problem putting together a story that fit in seamlessly. 

[Ohiopirate02]

I like that the two series were combined.  The first trilogy is not as strong as the Crows duology, so having better characters pop up to relieve the boredom is a plus.  I do like Leigh Bardugo as an author, but the first 3 books are a slog.  Alina and Mal, especially Mal, get tiring.  After binging the first season, I did a reread of the first 3 books.  I liked them better the second time because I have read the Crows and Nikolai's first book.  I see the need for the first 3 books to set the stage for what comes next, but they are debuts and way too much publisher interference (damn you Twilight and Hunger Games for forcing love triangles onto every YA series circa 2005-2015).  

I hope the second season cuts out a lot of Mal's temper tantrum that bogged down the second half of Siege and Storm.  

[MissLucas]

It's been a while since I read the books and I made a conscious choice to not do so before watching the show. Maybe that's a good thing because I was very happy with show Alina and Mal - though I seem to be the only one LOL! 

'Six of Crowes' is without a doubt the better series. I noted in my reading diary that it seems Bardugo was writing this with more confidence. Bringing in the Crowes early was a stroke of genius. 

While I admired all the locations, costumes and props I was a bit disappointed that they used middle to late 19th century as point of reference. In the books it's clearly the 18th century, Bardugo mentions it too in the featurette. But they clearly opted for more of a steampunk aesthetic - given that they introduced Arken and his train I guess it makes sense. Still , I would have liked to see some good Rococo fashion.

Overall I think the casting was great and I can't wait for Sturmhond to make an appearance in season 2.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I’m glad that regardless of what ages the characters are supposed to be in the show that they picked actors who are clearly not teens.

I’ve only read Crows and Crooked Kingdom and while I liked them (liked the first better) the idea these characters were mostly/all teenagers was ridiculous and I’m glad the show at least visually threw that in the trash.

[MissLucas]

5 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I’ve only read Crows and Crooked Kingdom and while I liked them (liked the first better) the idea these characters were mostly/all teenagers was ridiculous and I’m glad the show at least visually threw that in the trash.

Good point. Alina and Mal are okay as teenagers but the Dregs carry tons of baggage and complexity that come with more life experience. 

[Haleth]

What book is the Nina and Matthias storyline in?

Do any of the books cover the creation of the Fold?  Or was that the invention of the show writers?

Edited May 2, 2021 by Haleth

[Ohiopirate02]

52 minutes ago, Haleth said:

What book is the Nina and Matthias storyline in?

Do any of the books cover the creation of the Fold?  Or was that the invention of the show writers?

Nina and Matthias show up in Six of Crows and its sequel Crooked Kingdom.   What we saw in this season is how they met before the plot in Six. 

The books never go into the backstory of the Fold.  In Ruin and Rising, Baghra tells her story which does not include a daughter-in-law being killed to spur her son to create the Fold.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Nina and Matthias show up in Six of Crows and its sequel Crooked Kingdom.   What we saw in this season is how they met before the plot in Six. 

It was really great to see how their relationship started out. All the mystery in the books and having to stitch things together from various snippets of dialogue (IIRC) was really frustrating.

I think adding some ambiguity to the creation of the Fold didn't hurt either.

[ursula]

On 5/2/2021 at 8:46 AM, MissLucas said:

It was really great to see how their relationship started out. All the mystery in the books and having to stitch things together from various snippets of dialogue (IIRC) was really frustrating.

 

The book gives the flashbacks of their meeting in a lot of detail. In fact, a lot of the dialogue they exchange in the show is straight from the books.

Slightly unpopular opinion but I feel that the Crows should have been introduced much later in the story, season 2 or 3. Nina should have been in the Little Palace in season 1, and we could have seen her friendship with Zoya, considering how important their relationship is. More focus on Genya and David. More palace intrigue, and politics. Nina could then leave for her mission at the end of season 1, and the Crows would be introduced in season 2. A bounty being placed on Alina's head in season 2 when she's missing, after the Darkling's expansion of the Fold, would make more sense than what we ended up getting. 

Another thing I intensely disliked was the whole racism sub-plot. Not that it existed but that the dynamics rang false. Racism against Sulis is more authentic. The anti-Shu sentiment isn't any different from anti-Fjerda - it's not based on racial contempt, but on enmity, because Ravka is a smaller country sandwiched between these 2 powerful nations with anti-Grisha cultures. The scene were Zoya calls Alina a half-breed is straight up nonsensical.

Edited May 6, 2021 by ursula

[xfuse]

On 5/6/2021 at 12:55 PM, ursula said:

Slightly unpopular opinion but I feel that the Crows should have been introduced much later in the story, season 2 or 3. Nina should have been in the Little Palace in season 1, and we could have seen her friendship with Zoya, considering how important their relationship is. More focus on Genya and David. More palace intrigue, and politics. Nina could then leave for her mission at the end of season 1, and the Crows would be introduced in season 2. A bounty being placed on Alina's head in season 2 when she's missing, after the Darkling's expansion of the Fold, would make more sense than what we ended up getting. 

Another thing I intensely disliked was the whole racism sub-plot.

I agree. I think having the Crows throws the story off. The Crows story is my favourite books but it seemed like two shows cut together. I've only watched three eps and I don't know if I will watch the rest.

I also think they should have forgotten the racism sub-plot. It wasn't why Alina was different to the others. I don't get why tptb buy rights to a story and then change things in the story. Having her show up and become the Darkling favourite  points out how much the grisha wanted him to like and favour them. Why they would commit horrors and betray for him.

Another thing that bothered me and this makes me a petty person but I expected Zoya and Genya to be breathtaking beautiful. The actresses are pretty but a big part of their story is their beauty.  

[MissLucas]

So, I just finished 'Rule of Wolves' and there's a couple of things I noticed with regards to the show. Spoiler tags since the book's only three weeks old.

Spoiler

Stormhound should make his appearance in the next season - that's the casting news I'm really looking forward.

I wondered about that short moment during the Winter Fete in episode five when one of the guests lazily confused Zemeni with Suli and Zoya rushing by corrected the mistake sounding exasperated. It struck me as odd that she would care. Seems the writers of the show had been given an advance copy.

I thought the short interlude at Ketterdam was fanservice but I was of course still giddy when the word 'thief' was mentioned the first time. And good to know the Wraith and her ship are causing trouble for slavers and human traffickers.

I wonder how many seasons they will dedicate to Mal and Alina until they let them slip into the background of the story. Zoya, Nina, Genya & Co should get more scenes and character building in the next season already - otherwise the change will be pretty abrupt. Especially if the show keeps compressing plots.

Zoya's transformation will eat away a lot production money.

Yeah, that last sentence: Bardugo knows what her readers want.

 

 

[Haleth]

I’m about 3/4 done with Six of Crows and really really wish they had adapted this one instead of S&B. It is so much more fun. 

[MissLucas]

 

5 hours ago, Haleth said:

I’m about 3/4 done with Six of Crows and really really wish they had adapted this one instead of S&B. It is so much more fun. 

I still expect them to go to Fjerda - the Dregs were introduced in S&B because everyone agrees they are the coolest and TPTB di not want to wait to introduce them for several seasons. The changing main characters in the books are a bit of a problem for the adaptation but I hope they can pull it off.

[Ohiopirate02]

On 11/27/2021 at 1:54 PM, Haleth said:

I’m about 3/4 done with Six of Crows and really really wish they had adapted this one instead of S&B. It is so much more fun. 

After reading all of the books, the first three are definitely the weakest.  But, each series builds upon what happened before.  I really don't see how the showrunners could write just the second duology without heavy flashbacks that include characters like Alina and Mal without ever seeing them again.  

[QuantumMechanic]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:47 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

After reading all of the books, the first three are definitely the weakest.  But, each series builds upon what happened before.  I really don't see how the showrunners could write just the second duology without heavy flashbacks that include characters like Alina and Mal without ever seeing them again.  

I respectfully disagree.  Long before this TV show ever existed I read Six of Crows and A Crooked Kingdom without having read (or even knowing about) the rest of the Grishaverse and it was fine.  Those two books stand up quite well on their own.

Edited January 21, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[Ohiopirate02]

16 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I cant believe they killed David off offscreen like that, they really did him and Genya dirty. Poor Genya, has she not suffered enough? Its just getting mean now..

This choice by the showrunners made me angry because at the end of the Ruin and Rising David is alive.  If you never read another book in the Grishaverse, he and Genya get their HEA.  Hell, you can even read the Six of Crows duology and they still are happily living in Ravka.  And with Netflix being Netflix, I doubt we will see the Nikolai duology get adapted.  The CGI budget needed to adapt those books may be too high for Netflix to commit.  I don't know why the writers took material from those books and shoved them into this season while cutting a lot from the books they were supposed to be adapting.  Though I am not complaining about the disappearance of the Apparat in season two.  

[tennisgurl]

30 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

This choice by the showrunners made me angry because at the end of the Ruin and Rising David is alive.  If you never read another book in the Grishaverse, he and Genya get their HEA. 

I'm glad to know that things turned out better for them in the books at least, but that just makes this even worse! Why would they add that? What point does killing David serve? So frustrating!

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm glad to know that things turned out better for them in the books at least, but that just makes this even worse! Why would they add that? What point does killing David serve? So frustrating!

I think they made that choice because they decided one of the supporting good guys needed to die in the final battle.  The good guys have to suffer losses too and all that.  And the show paired down the supporting cast so much that David was one of the few options available.  And the remaining supporting good guys were either the Crows or absolutely necessary for any future seasons or spinoffs.  The only other good guy who could have been sacrificed would be Nadia, the tidemaker who got flirty with Tamar at the end.  

[dargosmydaddy]

I didn't really care about David's death (I know, I'm horrible), but I've got the same complaint about the way the TV series is cherry-picking moments from throughout the book series without regard for context. In addition to the aforementioned death of David (which, as Ohiopirate02 mentioned, occurs much later, in the Nikolai duology), they've used multiple moments from the Six of Crows duology that ring a bit false (or at least have less of an impact than they should) because they're being shoehorned into a different spot in the narrative. If we ever do get the actual Six of Crows book plots in the TV series, the story is going to be far less awesome because they've already used so much of it. And if the arc of the TV series has all been planned out ahead of time and is never going to include Six of Crows as we know it, I still think they could have done a much better job of melding the stories together and choosing what to use when, and how to set up their emotional beats for maximum impact.

[MissLucas]

The way Bardugo structured the books is the curse of the show - there's no way around it. But it's of course not her fault that modern tv formats demand a cast of regulars that needs to be featured every episode/season. It worked wonders for season one though because let's face it - the book series lit up with the inclusion of Kaz & Co so adding them to first season certainly helped the show. But ultimately this mixing of plots creates lots of headaches. This season the whole side-plot about the magic sword nobody really needed was just there to keep several characters around. And yes, I also fear what's that going to do to the Fjerda plot next season.

[Ohiopirate02]

17 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I didn't really care about David's death (I know, I'm horrible), but I've got the same complaint about the way the TV series is cherry-picking moments from throughout the book series without regard for context. In addition to the aforementioned death of David (which, as Ohiopirate02 mentioned, occurs much later, in the Nikolai duology), they've used multiple moments from the Six of Crows duology that ring a bit false (or at least have less of an impact than they should) because they're being shoehorned into a different spot in the narrative. If we ever do get the actual Six of Crows book plots in the TV series, the story is going to be far less awesome because they've already used so much of it. And if the arc of the TV series has all been planned out ahead of time and is never going to include Six of Crows as we know it, I still think they could have done a much better job of melding the stories together and choosing what to use when, and how to set up their emotional beats for maximum impact.

Yeah the emotional beats were missing in season two because of the way the showrunners cut and pasted together multiple books while also cherry-picking from others.  I actually don't blame you for not caring about David's death because the show shortchanged Genya's journey.  There's no Genya hiding in the kitchen for weeks (or months) on end hiding from everyone because she is seen as Kirigan's whore who killed the king and her scars are proof of her sins.  There's no "I am not ruined, I am ruination" when she decides to claw back from the shadows and help Alina.