S01.E07: Truth or Dare

[nodorothyparker]

Airdate 2020.11.15

Quote

While the group searches for something to advance their quest, one of them recalls their struggles in the early days of the apocalypse. A game of truth or dare brings emotions to the surface.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

I've already seen this episode. I'm not going to spoil it, but I thought it was a really good episode, definitely the best so far. 

[OoohMaggie]

22 hours ago, Superclam said:

I've already seen this episode. I'm not going to spoil it, but I thought it was a really good episode, definitely the best so far. 

That’s what I get for having my expectations raised 😪

If only I could find myself caring about any of the characters, it would make the apparent $1000 per episode budget less obvious. I can’t and it doesn’t.

[Mr. Sparkle]

13 minutes ago, OoohMaggie said:

That’s what I get for having my expectations raised 😪

If only I could find myself caring about any of the characters, it would make the apparent $1000 per episode budget less obvious. I can’t and it doesn’t.

They should at least raise the wig budget. 

[BasilSeal]

Hmmm, so we finally get some huck back story. My guess is that huck killed Magic Tony because she's working for the CRM to escort the girls to the research centre. As soon as Tony says he's going along with them, he's toast.

I think she went to scout ahead to meet up with her CRM handlers, which may be why she shot the guy in the fuel dump, he says 'you're one of them' we think it's because of the jacket, but maybe he knows she's one of them because he's seen her with CRM operatives?

[OoohMaggie]

I too was looking forward to more glimpses of the outbreak, we all felt let down a little by Fear’s offerings but F Me, last night’s convincing effort was about as cheap-arsed as humanly possible. If this show is the big build up to see Rick again and kick off the movies, they aren’t exactly putting a very big worm on the hook. I still can’t find a way to watch S6 of Fear, I hope they’re doing a better job 🙏

[OoohMaggie]

I thought the US ‘Bootnecks’ were all esprit de Corps and Oorah, didn’t seem to be much of that last night when she was killing her friends.

The suspense for the week is an old fashioned ‘whodunnit’, was it little Miss Scarlet, in the library with the candlestick?  Or Squatch, in the bathroom with the wrench?  😱

Edited November 16, 2020 by OoohMaggie

[TvGeek]

Ugh Why couldn't they have killed someone else and not Tony? At least he had a personality and could act.

[Persnickety1]

6 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

I too was looking forward to more glimpses of the outbreak, we all felt let down a little by Fear’s offerings but F Me, last night’s convincing effort was about as cheap-arsed as humanly possible. If this show is the big build up to see Rick again and kick off the movies, they aren’t exactly putting a very big worm on the hook. I still can’t find a way to watch S6 of Fear, I hope they’re doing a better job 🙏

I was aghast to think Andrew Lincoln would come onto this abomination and apparently he's not going to.  AMC had to remove his name from the roster as detailed in this article.

Some "The Walking Dead" fans thought Andrew Lincoln may appear on the "TWD: World Beyond" season one finale.

Lincoln's name appeared in a now-deleted casting list on the entertainment online database, IMDB, for the season one finale. 

The name was removed after Insider reached out to AMC, which airs "TWD" series.

An AMC representative confirmed to Insider the listing was removed as it was "not accurate."

Those tight-fisted mofos at AMC just need to give Andrew Lincoln whatever he wants to appear in the series finale of TWD.  I don't care if the man wants a million bucks for a 5-minute appearance.  The fans deserve that much for riding out the last few abysmal seasons.

[BasilSeal]

6 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

I thought the US ‘Bootnecks’ were all esprit de Corps and Oorah, didn’t seem to be much of that last night when she was killing her friends.

The suspense for the week is an old fashioned ‘whodunnit’, was it little Miss Scarlet, in the library with the candlestick?  Or Squatch, in the bathroom with the wrench?  😱

Wrench boy is the obvious suspect so it clearly won't be him. It's either person's as yet unknown or it's Huck. Tony made the comment that he'd give his own life to save Percy's, which was a pretty big signpost that he'd be doing just that in the near future, so i reckon that Percy is still alive but has done a runner and will be back at some point to exonerate wrench boy and drop the real killer right in it.

[Nashville]

9 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

Hmmm, so we finally get some huck back story. My guess is that huck killed Magic Tony because she's working for the CRM to escort the girls to the research centre. As soon as Tony says he's going along with them, he's toast.

My guess?  You’re close on the reasons why, but not on the primary execution/executor - i.e. it was a CRM operative who caved in Tony’s skull and framed Mr. Goodwrench in the process, but that operative is not Huck.  
I’m suspecting Tony and Percy have been the CRM connection - either as CRM rank and file, or (more likely) as intelligence collaborators - but Tony overstepped the CRM’s plans for the hipster hikers when he offered to stay with them for the duration, and thus had to be eliminated.  So far as rank-and-file vs. collaborators goes, we only have Tony’s and Percy’s word to confirm their familial relationship; either they’re CRM staff and lying, or collaborating and telling the truth.  I mean, think about it: CRM helicopters buzzing overhead on a moderately frequent basis, and this duo is driving around a supposedly stolen CRM deuce-and-a-half in broad daylight.  Think any CRM spying eyes are really going to be deceived by a duct tape patch over a door logo?

As to who murdered Tony?  Two immediately feasible options:

• Percy, if he and Tony were CRM direct operatives posing as family.  Percy would have the strongest motive to implicate Silas because Percy is perfectly aware of Silas’s lingering suspicions regarding Percy - plus Percy was the one who arranged for Iris to be indisposed at the truck for a chunk of time, and not providing attached-at-her-hip Silas with an automatic alibi.
• If Percy and Tony were family and acting as collaborators, the as-yet-unknown CRM intelligence operative who was their handler.  P&T would have to have regular contact with such a handler to pass on collected intelligence info - and it’s entirely possible Percy unknowingly sealed his uncle’s fate by passing on notice of their plans for continued accompaniment of the Happy Hikers.

9 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

I think she went to scout ahead to meet up with her CRM handlers, which may be why she shot the guy in the fuel dump, he says 'you're one of them' we think it's because of the jacket, but maybe he knows she's one of them because he's seen her with CRM operatives?

IMHO you’re giving Dump Boy a little too much credit; he didn’t particularly strike me as being the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

7 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

I thought the US ‘Bootnecks’ were all esprit de Corps and Oorah, didn’t seem to be much of that last night when she was killing her friends.

Not necessarily, when it comes to executing illegal and/or immoral orders - remember Lieutenant Calley?

[rmontro]

Too bad they killed Tony, he was one of the more likable characters.  And his little magic tricks were a pleasant diversion from the plodding storyline.  

I wish they'd actually have the courage to have Silas be the killer, but I don't see it.  He's a perfect red herring.

[tennisgurl]

I am really upset that they killed Tony, he was probably the most interesting character on the show so far, and his magic tricks were a fun change up from the angst and random small talk. 

These flashbacks are just not doing it for me, I feel like they really need to exist, either to show the early days of the ZA or to add new information for the characters. I always liked that TWD never have us a whole lot of backstory on what the characters were up to pre ZA, we just got thrown into it along with Rick in the pilot, when we did get information about what they did before, it usually had some kind of point and it didnt take very long. These are just kind of "well, ok thats nifty" for the most part. 

This was probably one of the better episodes, but I am still waiting for something to actually start happening. 

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

These flashbacks are just not doing it for me,

They feel like the "sob story of the week".

[GreyBunny]

Damn, they killed off the one character that was interesting. 

[BasilSeal]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

• Percy, if he and Tony were CRM direct operatives posing as family.  Percy would have the strongest motive to implicate Silas because Percy is perfectly aware of Silas’s lingering suspicions regarding Percy - plus Percy was the one who arranged for Iris to be indisposed at the truck for a chunk of time, and not providing attached-at-her-hip Silas with an automatic alibi.
• If Percy and Tony were family and acting as collaborators, the as-yet-unknown CRM intelligence operative who was their handler.  P&T would have to have regular contact with such a handler to pass on collected intelligence info - and it’s entirely possible Percy unknowingly sealed his uncle’s fate by passing on notice of their plans for continued accompaniment of the Happy Hikers.

I think this is feasible, but why go to the trouble of the elaborate con to begin with? it serves no purpose and paints percy and tony as  dishonest when they would have been trying to appear as people to trust, why not just rock up. help the group in some way an then offer to give them a lift as they have nothing better to do?

 

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

IMHO you’re giving Dump Boy a little too much credit; he didn’t particularly strike me as being the sharpest tool in the shed.

Possibly, however, that scene is there for a reason. We see huck talk the guy down by promising they'll help him, then she shoots him, which demonstrates huck's ruthless pragmatism, we see her kill her fellow marines to save the civilians, which again shows us she's capable of killing for the concept of the greater good. The CRM aren't the bad guys in the sense that negan and the governor were, they're not just doing bad things for shits and giggles because that's what they do. The CRM think they're ensuring the continuation of human civilisation, and that because of the enormous importance of this, that the end justifies the means. (in Fear, Virginia is operating on the same principle).

It's clear that the girls making this journey is somehow important to the CRM's grand plan, though it's hard to see how. It stands to reason that they wouldn't leave something so important top chance, they'd surely have someone escorting the kids otherwise they'd never make it, now this could be percy and tony. but i think it's more likely to be huck. Now huck may well be unaware that the CRM have murdered her friends at the CC, it may just be that she thinks she's ensuring the girls get to their father for important reasons, or something. Another motivation may well be that she might be the daughter of the dodgy British woman, remember she states she has a daughter, that was clearly a significant piece of information.

On 11/17/2020 at 10:38 AM, icemiser69 said:

And I don't believe Tony and Percy are related.  I think that is part of the con.

 

I think the relationship is genuine, one of the key themes in this  series is parent / child relationships, it doesn't fit for this relationship to be false, i'd say it was also a layer of complexity too far for the writers to indulge in. Tony tells Felix he'd give his own life to save Percy, my guess is that this is essentially what he has done in some way.

[theredhead77]

Can we please refer to their characters by their names? I know I'm new to TWD forums and I'm trying real hard to follow along but it's getting difficult with all these nicknames, some of which are needlessly cruel. Just a request. 

I'm taking things as they seem. I don't think Percy killed Tony. I think Silas got drunk and killed Tony in a fit of rage. Huck and Felix may have ties to the CRM. At the end of the first episode they were trying to find "her" and I don't think they have revealed who "her" is yet.

57 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

I think the relationship is genuine, one of the key themes in this  series is parent / child relationships, it doesn't fit for this relationship to be false, i'd say it was also a layer of complexity too far for the writers to indulge in. Tony tells Felix he'd give his own life to save Percy, my guess is that this is essentially what he has done in some way.

Same. I think they're related, they're con artists but I don't think they are spies. I think they've figured out a way to survive in their new world. 

I'm actually thinking Tony isn't dead, that wasn't his body. But that is probably wishful thinking.

[BasilSeal]

18 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

I'm taking things as they seem. I don't think Percy killed Tony. I think Silas got drunk and killed Tony in a fit of rage. Huck and Felix may have ties to the CRM. At the end of the first episode they were trying to find "her" and I don't think they have revealed who "her" is yet.

I don't remember that bit. I think huck may be involved with the CRM but I don't think Felix is, his loyalty is to Hope and Iris' father, can't see him betraying that (again it's another father and (surrogate) son relationship). The recurring parent / child theme is why i think if huck is acting for the CRM it's because dodgy British lady (sorry, i would use her  character name but i can't remember it so literal description will have to do in this case), is her mother and hence if DBL tells her getting the girls to the research facility is important and serves the greater good, she believes her.  We already know huck is capable of doing bad things to serve a good end. she also talks to hope about carrying a secret she can't share to protect others, we assume this secret is that she killed her fellow marines to prevent them murdering civilians, but perhaps  this isn't the case and it's a veiled reference to her being a double agent.

[theredhead77]

37 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

I don't remember that bit. I think huck may be involved with the CRM but I don't think Felix is, his loyalty is to Hope and Iris' father, can't see him betraying that (again it's another father and (surrogate) son relationship). The recurring parent / child theme is why i think if huck is acting for the CRM it's because dodgy British lady (sorry, i would use her  character name but i can't remember it so literal description will have to do in this case), is her mother and hence if DBL tells her getting the girls to the research facility is important and serves the greater good, she believes her.  We already know huck is capable of doing bad things to serve a good end. she also talks to hope about carrying a secret she can't share to protect others, we assume this secret is that she killed her fellow marines to prevent them murdering civilians, but perhaps  this isn't the case and it's a veiled reference to her being a double agent.

This is the scene I'm referring to. Is this dodgy British lady? At about 45 seconds the dude says they searched every building on campus and they can't find her. But we don't know who "her" is (I don't think). (I do appreciate the effort, we won't catch everyone but it makes it less confusing when we do know names. I also know I may be in the minority and am new here so I'll STFU if I'm going against board culture).

https://www.amc.com/shows/the-walking-dead-world-beyond/videos/spoilers-the-walking-dead-world-beyond-talked-about-scene-season-1-episode-1--48451

[BasilSeal]

11 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

This is the scene I'm referring to. Is this dodgy British lady? At about 45 seconds the dude says they searched every building on campus and they can't find her. But we don't know who "her" is (I don't think). (I do appreciate the effort, we won't catch everyone but it makes it less confusing when we do know names. I also know I may be in the minority and am new here so I'll STFU if I'm going against board culture).

https://www.amc.com/shows/the-walking-dead-world-beyond/videos/spoilers-the-walking-dead-world-beyond-talked-about-scene-season-1-episode-1--48451

I can't watch that because i'm in the uk, but i think i know which bit you mean now, it's the bit at the end with the female CRM commander played by Julia Ormond is  talking to the younger foot soldier after they've attacked the campus colony, right? the her in that scene is Hope, or possibly Iris, i think. 

Ormond's character has given Iris the map of where her father is located in an apparent moment of weakness, but it now looks more likely that this is part of a wider plan to inspire Iris / Hope to embark on their journey to reunite with their father. now i can't really see what the point of such a plan is, because if they wanted Iris and hope to be with their father, well, they have helicopters, why not just fly them there and cut out the whole 'killing 9,000 innocent people and sending 4 inexperienced children on a journey with an uncertain outcome' bit of the plan? but this is TWD so, who knows?

though because sending hope and Iris on a cross country odyssey is a play with such an uncertain outcome, if this was a part of the CRM's plan, for some reason yet unknown, then it stands to reason that they'd have some means of  countering the high chance they'll just fuck up and get eaten by zombies, which is by far the most likely outcome. that's why i think that someone is working for the CRM to make sure they do make it, and to my mind, Huck is the most likely candidate, but we'll see, it's quite possible i'm overthinking this, it's just a children's programme after all.

[Nashville]

8 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

it now looks more likely that this is part of a wider plan to inspire Iris / Hope to embark on their journey to reunite with their father. now i can't really see what the point of such a plan is

I can think of one possibility, but it’s so far-fetched I hesitate to voice it.

[BasilSeal]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

I can think of one possibility, but it’s so far-fetched I hesitate to voice it.

It's something to do with the research they're doing on the walkers, i wondered if it was to do with  whether walkers could have any vestige of their old self by recognising  someone important from their past life, hence getting the professor's daughters. though Milton already tried that particular dead end in season three of TWD original, and anyway, what do the girls need to walk there? I suppose it could be something Ormond's character is doing outside her remit from the CRM, and hence she can't just commandeer a helicopter, that would be the most likely explanation. Otherwise i'm stumped.

[Mr. Sparkle]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

I can think of one possibility, but it’s so far-fetched I hesitate to voice it.

Ah, go ahead, this is a safe space. Of people who watch a show about people who come back to life and then seemingly live forever without any particular rules of science. 

[OoohMaggie]

On 11/19/2020 at 11:09 PM, theredhead77 said:

I also know I may be in the minority and am new here so I'll STFU if I'm going against board culture).

There’s no board culture, it’s just a varied mix of people’s sense of humour. As an Englishman, irreverence, sarcasm and just plain ‘taking the piss’ is what we do. It’s meant in good humour, nothing malicious or spiteful is intended. Having travelled across the US and Canada and even on forums such as this, I am fully aware that our sense of humour is not always understood or appreciated, but it is what it is. We try to have a laugh where we can, so don’t take comments too seriously 🤗

Edited November 22, 2020 by OoohMaggie

[Mr. Sparkle]

As far as making up names for characters, I think that is part of the board "culture" to a certain degree. A lot of the posters here used to post on TWOP and the goal was always to snark on the shows while still appreciating them. "Father Pee Pee Pants" and "Camp Dinner Bell" are two examples. You can always ask someone what they mean by a certain nickname. 

One thing I like about this site is that you can criticize the show. Go on the facebook page and mention that the show has declined, and you'll be called out for "not being a real fan." 

[OoohMaggie]

10 hours ago, Superclam said:

As far as making up names for characters, I think that is part of the board "culture"

Apologies, I am new ☺️

If still watching after ten years and enduring seven episodes of World Beyond doesn’t make us “real fans”, then Facebook can go put its head up its ass 😋

[Nashville]

On 11/20/2020 at 5:52 PM, Superclam said:

Ah, go ahead, this is a safe space. 

Please never use that term to me again 😄, but okay: Doctor Dad and one of his daughters are immune to the zombie virus.

[Mr. Sparkle]

39 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Please never use that term to me again 😄, but okay: Doctor Dad and one of his daughters are immune to the zombie virus.

Please, talk about your feelings. 😜

I was thinking much the same thing, "the asset" of course refers to one of the girls with the Hope (get it??) of a cure or treatment. 

The only curveball would be if it's actually Elton or Silas who is the asset. 

1 hour ago, OoohMaggie said:

then Facebook can go put its head up its ass 

Facebook's head is already way up its ass! 

[Nashville]

14 hours ago, Nashville said:

Doctor Dad and one of his daughters are immune to the zombie virus.

14 hours ago, Superclam said:

I was thinking much the same thing, "the asset" of course refers to one of the girls with the Hope (get it??) of a cure or treatment. 

I just remembered something which blows this pet theory out of the water, though: both Iris and Hope were adopted, weren’t they?

...or maybe that’s just what they want us to think - hmmm....

 

Quote

The only curveball would be if it's actually Elton or Silas who is the asset. 

But what relationship would either Elton or Silas have with Dr. Bennett (the girls’ father)?

[Mr. Sparkle]

6 minutes ago, Nashville said:

I just remembered something which blows this pet theory out of the water, though: both Iris and Hope were adopted, weren’t they?

...or maybe that’s just what they want us to think - hmmm....

They were. Maybe the dad is used as bait to get the girls to find him? 

7 minutes ago, Nashville said:

But what relationship would either Elton or Silas have with Dr. Bennett (the girls’ father)?

That's a good point. 

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, Superclam said:

They were. Maybe the dad is used as bait to get the girls to find him? 

I’m just trying to work out what advantage the CRM sees in having the Bennett girls (of which one appears to be the ‘asset’ in question) walk from Lincoln NE to upstate NY versus simply snatching them up in a helicopter and flying them there.  
In fact that CRM choice was the original basis for my thought of one of them being a potential ZV Immune, because the only benefit I see for the hike is direct exposure to the ZA environment - i.e., a chance for the girl(s) to get walker-bit in transit without Dad being able to creditably blame the CRM.

[Mr. Sparkle]

7 hours ago, Nashville said:

I’m just trying to work out what advantage the CRM sees in having the Bennett girls (of which one appears to be the ‘asset’ in question) walk from Lincoln NE to upstate NY versus simply snatching them up in a helicopter and flying them there.  

There really isn't beyond dramatic necessity. I just don't have any hope for the writers of this show to come up with something clever. 

[OoohMaggie]

10 hours ago, Nashville said:

In fact that CRM choice was the original basis for my thought of one of them being a potential ZV Immune, because the only benefit I see for the hike is direct exposure to the ZA environment - i.e., a chance for the girl(s) to get walker-bit in transit without Dad being able to creditably blame the CRM.

This sounds far too interesting a plot line, are we watching the same show? 🤔

Edited November 24, 2020 by OoohMaggie

[BasilSeal]

On 11/23/2020 at 12:31 PM, Nashville said:

Please never use that term to me again 😄, but okay: Doctor Dad and one of his daughters are immune to the zombie virus.

I think you're on the right lines but remember the daughters are adopted so if that's the case then it's probably just one of the daughters

On 11/23/2020 at 1:13 PM, Superclam said:

The only curveball would be if it's actually Elton or Silas who is the asset. 

can't see it being wither of them, for reasons i put on the other thread, Elizabeth Kublik manipulates the girls into going on the journey to their father by giving them the map, (it's possible the messages on the teletype thingy weren't from their father but from the CRM, and were part of the plot to manipulate them into making the journey.) It's stretching things to say that Kublek could have been confident that the girls would do as she wanted, assuming this was her intent, but she at least has some agency in convincing them to go, however she has no part in Elton and Silas deciding to come with them, and she couldn't possibly have known they'd tag along, hence elton and silas aren't part of the plan and are not 'the asset'.

On 11/24/2020 at 5:29 AM, Nashville said:

In fact that CRM choice was the original basis for my thought of one of them being a potential ZV Immune, because the only benefit I see for the hike is direct exposure to the ZA environment - i.e., a chance for the girl(s) to get walker-bit in transit without Dad being able to creditably blame the CRM.

That would make sense, a slightly different spin on this would be that the professor is on the verge of a breakthrough in curing the zombie er, thingy, but won't do it because the breakthrough requires him to Do Something Terrible that would cause harm to innocent people. So they intend to manipulate him into making this Terrible Decision by having one or both of his daughters turn up with zombie bites, and only he can save them, or something.

Spoiler

I note that in the scene between Huck and Elizabeth, the CRM minion also in the scene expresses the thoughts of the audience by saying 'surely there's and easier way of getting them there?' and Elizabeth replies that it can only be done this way because reasons.

(only spoilered because it references a scene from the next episode)

[BasilSeal]

Actually, i'm starting to think the term asset is being used in it's 'traditional' intelligence meaning where an asset is a spy in the enemy's camp, or at least someone embedded within the enemy ranks who can be used against them as necessary. if that's the case then the asset would be Hope, as Huck has spent a deal of time alone with Hope talking about the need to keep secrets and how sometimes doing a bad thing can serve the 'greater good'. Maybe she's grooming Hope to somehow work against her own father, or something.

[BasilSeal]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

If the dad stopped cooperating they could be using one of the girls as leverage to make sure that he continues with his work.  Maybe one of the girls really is his biological daughter that for whatever reason was put up for adoption and he later adopted.  Perhaps from an affair that he may have had that resulted in his mistress having the baby and putting it up for adoption.  Or perhaps his mistress died with no living relatives and the baby was then put up for adoption.

I so wanted Gruesome to be the asset.   I think it would have been far more interesting if that had been the case.

If one of the girls really does have something special about her, then this series would bring back memories of The Pretender.

I'll be surprised if they go down the magical solution to the walkers route, because that would require them to actually explain what causes the walkers, and there literally is no rational explanation that would fit within the laws of physics, or biology for that matter. the zombies are just there as a plot device anyway to create a certain specific type of existential threat to the protagonists. ISTR Kirkman being critical of the inclusion of the CDC episode in the first season because it hinted at there being some sort of explanation round the corner and he was adamant that there was no explanation, this was just how things were.

In the comics Kirkman seems predominantly preoccupied with seeing how his characters react to having horrible things done to them and having to do horrible things to other people, the walkers are just a stylistic device to  enable this. The TV series have tried to look at more complex themes, sometimes they do better than others, in TWD-TWB the key theme is parent child relationships. I think the eventual reveal will be somehow tied to this theme, and i don't think they'll go down the magic individual who is immune route because it's too great a deviation from kirkman's original vison.

I think the spin off shows benefit from not being tied to the comic's misery porn centred story lines, but although i actually prefer them for this reason i think conversely it's also why many are critical of them; because they aren't simply a bunch of people doing really horrible medieval shit to each other for no good reason and occasionally getting their intestines ripped out by ambulatory corpses. Apparently that's what people tune in for, not complex meditations on the morality of survival.

[BasilSeal]

8 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

This series isn't tied to the misery porn of the comics, but it is still all misery porn.  When Hope unloaded on to Elton about how she killed his pregnant mom, that was just piling on more misery. 

they are at least *trying* to look at more complex ideas, even if they aren't entirely successful, it's not just this season's crazy person doing bad shit to the main characters for no apparent reason other than simply because they're mad, bad or possibly both and bad shit is what they do, oh yes. obviously that doesn't mean that what they're doing as an alternative is any good though.

they don't quite hit the target in Fear either but they get closer, IMO, but fear does stick to what TWD has always been very good at which is the set piece zombie sequences. this show has all of the not quite  properly realised thematic concepts and none of the visually impressive zombie battering that so often rescued TWD original from the doldrums of terrible writing. i know they wanted to get away from the zombies as being central to the action for this iteration of the show, but unfortunately, for about 70% of the audience gut splattering zombie action was literally the only reason they were watching, unlikeable angsty teens doing Dawson's Creek of the undead, not so much.

16 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I don't know, but with all that is going on in that group, with most of the characters thinking that Silas killed Tony and Percy, that was not the time for Hope to bring up what she had done.  Now Iris is the only one that isn't in agony.

From a narrative point of view they're breaking the group up ready for the inevitable getting back together and resolving differences sequence still to come, but yeah, the sorry i shot your pregnant mum, but hey, she had just murdered mine thing is a bit of an obstacle to overcome in that respect.