Dune (2021)

[DoctorAtomic]

17 hours ago, Zonk said:

Being bored during the movie makes my mind wonder and I get questions into my head, like:

A lot of those is why they made a million prequels. Spice can't be synthesized, for example. 

[Zuleikha]

It's hard to know how many questions left unanswered in part 1 about the world will be answered in part 2. This was explicitly stated to be an incomplete story, so it's natural that many things aren't fully answered yet.

The books do explain things like the political situation with the Emperor and the Atreides and how interstellar space worked before spice, and I suspect more of those details will be in part 2.

[Zonk]

11 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Spice can't be synthesized, for example. 

Why? Just saying "it can't" is a cheap copout. If wroms can produce it, so can a chemical plant, unless the worms are magic.

While that is just one of my many questions, it's not that important that these questions be answered. My main problem remains. I think the prophecy stuff (although it's partly made up, it seems to have a true core, with the bloodline breeding and Paul having vision) is just boring and kinda stupid. And I still don't get why it was such a dealbreaker in nBSG for people but it doesn't seem to be in Dune, where it's far worse. I don't want to be down on people for enjoying something. The more joy in the world the better. But I just don't get it.

Maybe if there was anything else to grasp onto. But there isn't. The characters are underdeveloped and the story has a million holes. Like I said, the acting is great and so are the visuals, but that's not enough to not be bored out of my mind during the movie. There has to be some good story there.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Zonk

[SeanC]

On 11/13/2021 at 4:01 AM, Zonk said:

If interstellar travel is only possible with spice, like the movie tells us, how did humans get to Arakis in the first place?

The spice is necessary because humans outlawed the use of advanced computers after the Butlerian Jihad. Previous to that it was possible to navigate folding space that way. 

Quote

How come they can't just synthesize spice?

Because it can't be. It's an ultra-rare resource, there are plenty of useful things in our world that we can't synthesize.

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Why didn't witch-mom use her voice on the Fremen? Did I miss something where they established it doesn't work on them?

It doesn't work on groups, and on an ongoing basis they need the Fremen's cooperation.

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How can one guy kill all the guards, disable the shields, etc., etc.?

There were three guards, and he's a high-ranking member of the household. 

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What are those big space tubes? Are those jump gates? 

No, those are heighliners, the ships.

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

While that is just one of my many questions, it's not that important that these questions be answered. My main problem remains. I think the prophecy stuff (although it's partly made up, it seems to have a true core, with the bloodline breeding and Paul having vision) is just boring and kinda stupid. And I still don't get why it was such a dealbreaker in nBSG for people but it doesn't seem to be in Dune, where it's far worse. I don't want to be down on people for enjoying something. The more joy in the world the better. But I just don't get it.

It's not really prophesy, it's visions of possible futures.

But as to the comparison, a lot of BSG fans disliked what was introduced to them as a sci-fi show increasingly leaning hard on unexplained mysticism.  That's not like Dune at all.

Edited November 14, 2021 by SeanC

[DoctorAtomic]

I forgot the reason, but I think it was explained in one of the early prequels why you can just make spice. It wasn't meant to be a handwave. 

I think it was the book about how they discovered using spice for ftl travel, so after the House books. 

 

[BlackberryJam]

10 hours ago, Zonk said:

Why? Just saying "it can't" is a cheap copout. If wroms can produce it, so can a chemical plant, unless the worms are magic.

While that is just one of my many questions, it's not that important that these questions be answered. My main problem remains. I think the prophecy stuff (although it's partly made up, it seems to have a true core, with the bloodline breeding and Paul having vision) is just boring and kinda stupid. And I still don't get why it was such a dealbreaker in nBSG for people but it doesn't seem to be in Dune, where it's far worse. I don't want to be down on people for enjoying something. The more joy in the world the better. But I just don't get it.

Maybe if there was anything else to grasp onto. But there isn't. The characters are underdeveloped and the story has a million holes. Like I said, the acting is great and so are the visuals, but that's not enough to not be bored out of my mind during the movie. There has to be some good story there.

We can’t synthesize human blood or cure cancer. Saying that the inability to synthesize spice is a cheap cop out just seem a needless reason to be angry at a film you don’t like. And it’s fine not to like it. This film has nothing to do with nBSG. They are two totally different pieces of entertainment with just some crossover in fanbases. They shouldn’t be equated or the fandom opinions of one forced upon the other.

If you truly want those answers, you can read the whole series. This film was a part of a greater world, telling a single story within that world. Like with any sci-fi creation, there is history and backstory which can be explored in other works and discovery of that is part of the enjoyment of the world.

Edited November 15, 2021 by BlackberryJam

[BetterButter]

 

[Sandman]

On 11/13/2021 at 5:14 PM, Jan Spears said:

One thing that continued to puzzle me, though, was the scene between Jessica and Shadout Mapes. What was the point of Shadout Mapes giving Jessica the blade when the blade isn't used (that I can remember) later in the movie? During the climactic knife fight, Paul uses Chani's blade.

My memory of the book is faulty here, but I have the nagging sense that the role of the Shadout Mapes and the importance of the crysknife are both reduced significantly in the movie. The test of honour (or at the least test of understanding of Fremen culture) that the Shadout Mapes puts Jessica to is only hinted at, it seemed to me. On the other hand, the full extent of Dr. Yueh's treachery is vividly portrayed. (I almost wrote " ... was made much clearer in Villeneuve's movie than in Lynch's version," until I realized that a list of Stuff Much Clearer in the Villeneuve Version Than In Lynch's would keep me here all day.)

Edited November 17, 2021 by Sandman

[BetterButter]

 

[ShellsandCheese]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:48 AM, Anela said:

I started to watch it with my dad, but he had to go to bed. He wasn't too impressed, said something about it being like Star Wars "but at least Star Wars had some humour." 

LOL. George Lucas basically borrowed the plot from Dune to create Star Wars. 

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Stunned that DUNE has 11 nominations for The BAFTA AWARDS !!!!

[paramitch]

I've read the books many times, so I've been looking forward to this. I'm a huge fan of the first four (GOD EMPEROR is this strange and beautiful fairytale and I have a signed copy from Frank Herbert that I treasure) and I like the last two, although not at the same level. What Frank Herbert created in those six books was gorgeous.

I do want to beg people -- please, please don't start with the prequels. They were written by Frank's son Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, and apologies, but they're terribly written and incorporate all these awful retcons (the one about the Baron and Reverend Mother Helen Gaius Mohiam is laughable -- don't even get me started).

Anyway! I was excited for this, and I was relieved that it was beautifully done. I wasn't over the moon at every moment -- it's really gorgeous, but it is occasionally a bit ponderous and slow. (Based on his body of work, although it's all visually beautiful, I have to assume that Villaneuve has zero sense of humor. Everything he does is visually breathtaking but so solemn and slow! It all has the same atmosphere to me.)

I loved most of the casting -- just beautifully done, and thought Oscar Isaac was incredible as Leto. I thought Rebecca Ferguson was okay as Jessica, but OH MY GOD she was so damn weepy! Jessica is so much stronger than how Ferguson played her, so that bothered me. I  guess I should be happy she also didn't trip and fall while they were running (I'm looking at YOU, 1984 DUNE). Although I did like the breakfast scene, when she's basically teaching Paul how to fine-tune his use of the Voice.

The one failure for me was Yueh. I didn't think the movie made it nearly clear enough how sacred and incorruptible the Suk vows are, and what a big deal his betrayal was.

I also do wish someone would actually dare to make Gurney Halleck ugly, the way he is in the book. That's the beauty of his character, that he's this warrior-troubadour with a beautiful voice and the heart of a poet who is physically scarred and unbeautiful. But although he's too handsome for the part, Brolin was great, and I was very surprised at how charismatic and controlled Jason Momoa was as Duncan. He was my favorite casting choice in the film, along with Oscar Isaac and Sharon Duncan-Brewster (as a fantastic Kynes).

I thought Chalamet was okay. I adored him in CALL ME BY YOUR NAME but here I had a little trouble believing him to be this incredibly lethal, gifted teenaged warrior trained from childhood. He played Paul as a bit too emo and petulant for me, but he grew on me by the end. And while Zendaya was fine as Chani, I was irritated at the constant vision flashes. I swear, 90% of Zendaya's screen time is her just turning to gaze meaningfully at Paul in slow-mo, her hair blowing in the desert wind. Bleah.

Which also brings me to my biggest complaint -- the ending. What a weird, weird place to cut the film! I mean, it just felt like a strange choice to me, to shut it down right when they finally meet the Fremen (and just when Chani might actually get to do or say something!). But I did love the way the movie incorporated Jamis as a subtle POV character throughout the movie, so that when we finally meet him, that fight with Paul has resonance (and Babs Olusanmokun was SO charismatic in the part!). I cared about movie Jamis in a way I never care about the book Jamis (who's basically just a toxic asshole).

On 10/24/2021 at 2:43 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

You can count me first in line if someone has the spine to take on a God Emperor movie. 

It'll never happen but I'd be so thrilled. I love GOD EMPEROR and the character of Leto II. He's just such an incredibly rich and fascinating character.

On 10/25/2021 at 9:31 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

I think that was the point of the 'House' prequels; to give the characters in Dune actual characterization. I never liked Idaho until I read his origin story. You have all these people so loyal to the Duke, and in Dune, they just say it's because he's a cool guy. The prequels at least give you something there. 

But the prequels aren't even Frank Herbert, and constantly retcon the actual DUNE books.  I know some of them are vaguely based on some of Herbert's actual notes, but not only are they badly written, they're contradictory to the universe Herbert himself built.

I think DUNE and the other books do give us plenty of reason to understand why the Atreides inspire such fanatical loyalty, and I thought the movie did a pretty good job of demonstrating that.

I do agree with you that the miniseries were terrific -- I wish they were available streaming!

On 10/25/2021 at 9:50 AM, absnow54 said:

I will say, they did a terrific job casting this movie, because I think Oscar Isaac really sold the kind of guy who inspires lifelong loyalty in the limited screen time he had. 

He absolutely did. Isaac is such a good actor, and he's one of the only actors I've ever seen who seems capable of transforming our perception of his physicality onscreen. Like, he can play joyful, lithe, almost boyish characters, then the same year turn around and play characters with this sense of weight or stolidity -- this immense darkness or gravitas. I don't know how he does it.

On 10/26/2021 at 5:21 AM, Haleth said:

I reread the book last year in anticipation of the movie and continue to think it is one of the greatest sci fi books ever.  I was happy the movie followed the book so religiously (heh) so I can understand why many people come away thinking the pacing was boring. 

I reread the original 6 novels at least once a year, and always love returning to the world of DUNE. And I always find something new.

On 10/26/2021 at 2:22 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Fear is the mindkiller.

Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

On 11/6/2021 at 8:14 PM, Sandman said:

I don't remember the reader getting much from the Duke's point of view in the way that both Paul and Jessica are viewpoint characters. It's years since I read the book, though. I thought Oscar Isaac and Jason Momoa both brought real and necessary warmth to their roles, as did Josh Brolin. I agree with the comment upthread that Rebecca Ferguson was the MVP, except that I found Jessica was overtly fearful in the movie in ways I don't think she would show outwardly in the book (but ya gotta get the Litany Against Fear in there somehow!)

We do get some really moving Leto POV moments in the book -- most notably his rage and fear after Paul is attacked by the hunter-seeker ("They have tried to take the life of my son"), then when the compound is attacked, and most tragically of all, in his final moments with the Baron. For me it's really effective and heartbreaking.

I totally agree that Ferguson was too trembly (and WEEPY) as Jessica. I get that Villaneuve was trying to externalize Jessica's internal monologue during the gom jabbar scene but it didn't work for me at all.

On 11/11/2021 at 12:22 PM, lasu said:

I get that - but that doesn't mean she couldn't use her special voice right?  Like if I was a weirding woman, and someone one was all, I can't  challenge you so I'm going to fight your son to the death, I'd be like, [special voice]KILL YOURSELF INSTEAD[/special voice] and call it a day. 

If it helps, this actually is addressed in the book. Jessica starts to use the Voice on Jamis, trying to goad him, and Stilgar rather kindly basically just tells her they'll gag her if she keeps it up.

On 11/12/2021 at 5:52 PM, Jan Spears said:

By directing the Atreides to assume control over Arrakis, the Emperor deprived them of "home field" advantage (their native planet) in the event of an attack. Consigned to a harsh, alien (hohoho) environment, the Atreides were on the back foot from moment one and were easily overwhelmed when the combined Harkonnen/Imperium attack came. 

The Atreides were dangerous to the Emperor because of the intense loyalty Duke Leto inspired in those around him. The great admiration in which Leto was held made the Atreides powerful far beyond their material and military means.  Leto inspired something deeply positive in people and this -- more than anything -- would have threatened the Emperor. 

I didn't think of the Atreides as being incompetent and unprepared. They inherited a world that had been sabotaged by the Harkonnen and didn't have enough time (a matter of days) before the Emperor launched an all-out attack. Also, the doctor betrayed them, which allowed the Harkonnen/Imperium forces to penetrate the palace.

Yeah, that's a good encapsulation. Basically, the Emperor is "rewarding" Duke Leto with the switch from Caladan to Arrakis as his dukedom, but he's really setting Leto up for a fall in an incredibly hostile environment, and Leto and Jessica both know it. 

The tragic thing is, Leto is still smart enough to be able to realize that the Emperor has screwed up -- that if he and his people can befriend the Fremen and win their loyalty -- if they can harness desert power as the Harkonnens never did -- they could wield incredible power over the spice while building an army that would strike fear even into the Emperor's Sardaukar.

That's what's so sad about Leto's betrayal (fricking YUEH!). If he'd just had a little more time, he could have turned the Baron's trap for him into a success story. Then it becomes Paul's turn to try to do so, instead.

[DoctorAtomic]

The prequels are poorer quality, but there's enough of Frank's vision in there that it's fine for me. I wouldn't recommend to read them first, but they're breezy enough and give more of the actual universe. There's still some good stuff in there. 

[Jan Spears]

Dune won six Oscars this week - Best Original Score, Best Sound, Best Production Design, Best Cinematography, Best Film Editing and Best Visual Effects.

Dune lost Best Picture (to CODA), Best Adapted Screenplay (to CODA), Best Makeup and Hairstyling (to The Eyes of Tammy Faye) and Best Costume Design (to Cruella).

I find the Best Sound win perplexing because I thought the sound was most inconsistent thing in the entire production.

[paramitch]

On 3/31/2022 at 4:55 PM, Jan Spears said:

Dune won six Oscars this week - Best Original Score, Best Sound, Best Production Design, Best Cinematography, Best Film Editing and Best Visual Effects.

Dune lost Best Picture (to CODA), Best Adapted Screenplay (to CODA), Best Makeup and Hairstyling (to The Eyes of Tammy Faye) and Best Costume Design (to Cruella).

I find the Best Sound win perplexing because I thought the sound was most inconsistent thing in the entire production.

I liked the sound design in Dune, but I do think it was slightly oddly done -- everyone was always so hushed.

I'm unhappy about Hans Zimmer's win and think he should no longer be eligible for these and similar awards. The man has a huge stable of composers working for him who are paid by the cue. It's an open secret that some of his most famous film score accomplishments (like the distinctive BLAMMM horns in Inception) were not even written by him.

Zimmer's not the only one, but it still pisses me off. And plenty of other composers DO continue to write solo -- John Williams, Carter Burwell, John Powell, etc.

I definitely have no complaints about Dune winning for special effects, since they were absolutely gorgeous.

[Sandman]

On 3/31/2022 at 1:14 AM, paramitch said:

We do get some really moving Leto POV moments in the book -- most notably his rage and fear after Paul is attacked by the hunter-seeker ("They have tried to take the life of my son"), then when the compound is attacked, and most tragically of all, in his final moments with the Baron. For me it's really effective and heartbreaking.

I can't believe I forgot about Leto's final confrontation with the Duke! It really was heartbreaking. Thanks for the reminder (I ... think?) The end of his life is truly tragic. I agree that Yueh somehow gets off lightly in Villeneuve's version, Yueh's betrayal -- and the horror that it evokes -- being almost literally unthinkable in the novel. I do like Rebecca Ferguson generally, and I think there's much good in her performance here, but Villeneuve's way of externalizing Jessica's conflicts weakens the core of the character.

I've always thought that looking to the prequel novels to fill in the characterizations felt like cheating somehow. Full disclosure: I've never read any of the prequels (stopped after God Emperor) -- I always dogged by the feeling that there was something cheaply mercenary about them.

Why does every adaptation of the novel pretend that the Baron can basically fly? I never had that impression from the book (he bobs along, too fat to carry his own weight. He's not soaring to the vault of the ceiling!) That image of the Baron rising and rising out of his Tar Bath of Eeeeevill (or whatever the kull wahad that was) was laughable -- the biggest misstep of the film, to me; certainly it was the only visual that pulled me directly out of the story. (I was too busy thinking "Whaaaa? Nope!")

Edited April 3, 2022 by Sandman

[Jan Spears]

On 3/31/2022 at 12:14 AM, paramitch said:

I swear, 90% of Zendaya's screen time is her just turning to gaze meaningfully at Paul in slow-mo, her hair blowing in the desert wind. Bleah.

At first I read this as her hair blowing meaningfully in the desert wind. Then I reread it and understood what you actually wrote!

[ursula]

Finally watched it. Even though I knew ahead of time that Chani/Zendaya gets little screen-time in this movie, I was deeply disappointed. I hope they make up for it in part 2. Denis should take tips from Peter Jackson about fleshing out female characters that didn't get justice from the source material. 

[paramitch]

16 hours ago, Sandman said:

I can't believe I forgot about Leto's final confrontation with the Duke! It really was heartbreaking. Thanks for the reminder (I ... think?) The end of his life is truly tragic. I agree that Yueh somehow gets off lightly in Villeneuve's version, Yueh's betrayal -- and the horror that it evokes -- being almost literally unthinkable in the novel. I do like Rebecca Ferguson generally, and I think there's much good in her performance here, but Villeneuve's way of externalizing Jessica's conflicts weakens the core of the character.

I've always thought that looking to the prequel novels to fill in the characterizations felt like cheating somehow. Full disclosure: I've never read any of the prequels (stopped after God Emperor) -- I always dogged by the feeling that there was something cheaply mercenary about them.

Why does every adaptation of the novel pretend that the Baron can basically fly? I never had that impression from the book (he bobs along, too fat to carry his own weight. He's not soaring to the vault of the ceiling!) That image of the Baron rising and rising out of his Tar Bath of Eeeeevill (or whatever the kull wahad that was) was laughable -- the biggest misstep of the film, to me; certainly it was the only visual that pulled me directly out of the story. (I was too busy thinking "Whaaaa? Nope!")

Thanks for this eloquent reply!

I agree. And Leto's final confrontation was so moving, and the way Villeneuve staged it, with Leto naked, it looks like a Renaissance painting. Just devastating.

I can't with the prequels at all, BUT -- In case it helps, there are two more books fully written by Frank Herbert after God Emperor -- Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune. They are NOT his son's prequels and are a pretty decent ending to the series, and (if it helps), take place in close continuity, so the characters we bond with there are there for the remainder of the story. And of course, poor Duncan. Duncan is always still there. (It cracks me up how Duncan of all people survived for the entire series.)

While they don't reach the heights of the previous four, I would say the final two Herbert Dune books are solidly "good" and have some terrific moments. They're worth reading and provide a genuine sense of closure in the big picture, and with some great characters. But no pressure.

As far as the Baron, I didn't think the adaptations were making the Baron fly, they were simply using Herbert's canon references to the Baron's use of suspensors in the books. So he could rise or fall, "fly" up or simply bob along, depending on his touch of a button on the suspensors. So I bought it and it didn't bother me.

But I do totally get how it could be a weird thing for people who haven't read the books, going, "How can he do that?"

9 hours ago, Jan Spears said:

At first I read this as her hair blowing meaningfully in the desert wind. Then I reread it and understood what you actually wrote!

LOL! Sorry! But hey, let's face it, Chani's hair DOES blow MEANINGFULLY. (But really. Sorry. I'm a little fried with work and managing a bunch of life stuff so appreciate the lovely conversations here as a distraction.)

9 hours ago, ursula said:

Finally watched it. Even though I knew ahead of time that Chani/Zendaya gets little screen-time in this movie, I was deeply disappointed. I hope they make up for it in part 2. Denis should take tips from Peter Jackson about fleshing out female characters that didn't get justice from the source material. 

I was similarly unhappy with this, so I get your feelings here.

The thing is, Villeneuve isn't always very good at this aspect of his films -- while he was fantastic with a female heroine in Arrival (that movie devastates me, although yes, it has some undertones that are potentially upsetting), I found Blade Runner 2049 beautiful but also really troubling. There's just a ton of objectifying and sexism there in how women are presented throughout and it's not always obvious that it's happening that way as "this is what is wrong with society" but more as general subtle misogyny, a feeling that women are things. Yes, the men are really sorry to see women that way and gosh, they want to protect them, but they also DO seem to see the women that way. Gah. (I won't go into the aspects of Arrival that could be considered to be anti-choice -- I love the movie so much I have to ignore that completely.)

Meanwhile in terms of Dune and the women here -- yes, it's a gorgeous adaptation, but Jessica pretty much weeps through half of her scenes, and I fricking hate that so much. Jessica is a stone-cold badass in the books. Yes, she loves her children, but she is also willing to spend them pretty ruthlessly as chess pieces for the greater good and the Sisterhood. I do think the movie kind of still communicates that, but weepy Jessica definitely bugged me. I'm reserving total judgment to see how Villeneuve handles her in the second half (fingers crossed).

BUT -- I am totally side-eyeing Villeneuve for changing the words and having Jessica PARAPHRASING THE Litany Against Fear. The original was perfect. AGHGHGH.

The thing with Chani -- I'm also holding my breath there to see what we get in Part 2.

But like you I was disappointed because (aside from the totally invented opening brief aural monologue by her about how pretty the spice is on the breeze), 90% of her scenes are just her gazing at Paul, turning slowly to regard him, standing moodily, kissing (and stabbing) him in his dreams, and they're all interchangeable, hazy images of her, with her hair blowing MEANINGFULLY in the breeze. All in slow-motion, of course.

So, grr.

Chani is a fantastic character and like Jessica is nobody's mindless doll, so I'm really hoping the filmmaker rectifies the basic "exotic distant/unattainable woman" image here into a real, fierce, intelligent character portrait of Chani in part 2. I do think Zendaya can bring that to her if given the chance.

[Sandman]

12 hours ago, paramitch said:

As far as the Baron, I didn't think the adaptations were making the Baron fly, they were simply using Herbert's canon references to the Baron's use of suspensors in the books. So he could rise or fall, "fly" up or simply bob along, depending on his touch of a button on the suspensors. So I bought it and it didn't bother me.

It might just be that it's time for me to reread the first novel (and ... maybe finish the original series?) but I never remembered the Baron using his suspensor rig to rise as high as he seems to in the various adaptations -- merely to simulate walking around under his own power. But it's possible I'm wrong about that. (I will stipulate for the record -- not that anyone asked me, of course -- my entire conviction that the so-called "Harkonnen heart plugs" appear nowhere in the novel and are solely an invention of the Lynch movie. No amount of doubt about my memory of the books will shake that conviction. Er, pray, carry on.)

[paramitch]

3 hours ago, Sandman said:

It might just be that it's time for me to reread the first novel (and ... maybe finish the original series?) but I never remembered the Baron using his suspensor rig to rise as high as he seems to in the various adaptations -- merely to simulate walking around under his own power. But it's possible I'm wrong about that. (I will stipulate for the record -- not that anyone asked me, of course -- my entire conviction that the so-called "Harkonnen heart plugs" appear nowhere in the novel and are solely an invention of the Lynch movie. No amount of doubt about my memory of the books will shake that conviction. Er, pray, carry on.)

You're not wrong -- the Baron uses the suspensors to support him in the book, and he's definitely not flying around anywhere!

I just thought it was an okay progression that he could conceivably use them in more exaggerated ways too, so it didn't bother me in the movie here, because it was at least rooted in something from the book.

And you're also right about the heart plugs from the 1984 Dune -- those were ONLY in the movie and not in the book! I did think they were kind of a cool addition though (I did think it would be in-character for the Baron to sort of mark his staff with an easy-kill button).

[Sandman]

15 hours ago, paramitch said:

I did think they were kind of a cool addition though (I did think it would be in-character for the Baron to sort of mark his staff with an easy-kill button).

No doubt it was in character for the Baron (as much as anything in Lynch's fever-dream of a movie could be said to be in line with the characterizations in the book) to install grotty kill switches in his underlings -- but I found the whole thing so distasteful (and kind of overkill) that I couldn't really think of it as being innovative or interesting -- well, I didn't want to think about those things at all, really!) I think it's the degree of exaggeration that doesn't sit right with me -- as with so many things!

[paramitch]

On 4/5/2022 at 10:21 AM, Sandman said:

No doubt it was in character for the Baron (as much as anything in Lynch's fever-dream of a movie could be said to be in line with the characterizations in the book) to install grotty kill switches in his underlings -- but I found the whole thing so distasteful (and kind of overkill) that I couldn't really think of it as being innovative or interesting -- well, I didn't want to think about those things at all, really!) I think it's the degree of exaggeration that doesn't sit right with me -- as with so many things!

Yeah, what's interesting is that the 1984 adaptation is just such a terrible meshing of styles. David Lynch is so florid and Baroque and dramatic, and Frank Herbert's world is much more suited to Villeneuve's quieter, more muted, subtlety. Lynch just wasn't the right choice.

I liked the casting, though. I like McLachlan as Paul, loved Richard Jordan as Duncan, loved the casting of Madsen as Irulan (like, she was picture-perfect), and loved Linda Hunt as Shadout Mapes. I thought Annis and Prochnow were okay, that Sting was okay (campy fun), and liked Patrick Stewart as Gurney. The only miss for me casting-wise was Dean Stockwell as Yueh (I mean WTF?).

I do remember being touched by the "making of" video bits about the movie back at the time, because Frank Herbert was just so openly overjoyed and delighted with it during the filming process. I remember in one interview, he said something like, "Most authors worry about what they're doing with their baby when they make a movie, but I don't have to worry about what they're doing with my baby. Because I can see it and they're doing a beautiful job."

I always found this kind of poignant since Herbert passed away just a few years later. I was happy for his sake that he was so thrilled with the movie (at least, while filming!).

[Sandman]

On 4/7/2022 at 3:24 AM, paramitch said:

I liked the casting, though. I like McLachlan as Paul, loved Richard Jordan as Duncan, loved the casting of Madsen as Irulan (like, she was picture-perfect), and loved Linda Hunt as Shadout Mapes. I thought Annis and Prochnow were okay, that Sting was okay (campy fun), and liked Patrick Stewart as Gurney. The only miss for me casting-wise was Dean Stockwell as Yueh (I mean WTF?).

Sting was the WTF? casting for me. Dean Stockwell was an odd choice, I agree, but Sting was clankingly stunt-cast, completely wrong for the role, and appeared to be trying to compensate for it by screaming some of his lines more or less at random. Everyone else I could mostly live with — and I rather liked Annis as Jessica. I did feel bad for Siân Phillips, since it seemed a shame to me that someone of her ability was getting deliberate direction from Lynch to gnaw on any nearby scenery. 

[BlackberryJam]

I wish they could have brought Linda Hunt in as Mapes for this version. She brought so much to the very small role. 

[paramitch]

16 hours ago, Sandman said:

Sting was the WTF? casting for me. Dean Stockwell was an odd choice, I agree, but Sting was clankingly stunt-cast, completely wrong for the role, and appeared to be trying to compensate for it by screaming some of his lines more or less at random. Everyone else I could mostly live with — and I rather liked Annis as Jessica. I did feel bad for Siân Phillips, since it seemed a shame to me that someone of her ability was getting deliberate direction from Lynch to gnaw on any nearby scenery. 

I don't know, I liked Sting. Purely within the Lynchian version -- where everything was so over the top -- I liked him as Feyd as this arrogant artistocratic shithead. He's not at all what I pictured in the book, of course, but I didn't hate him. As you mention with Phillips, it felt to me like Sting was directed to be a specific persona there so I was okay with it.

I AM really excited to see how Villeneuve casts him in Part 2, and definitely hope he's more book-faithful. And I so hope we get the Count and his wife -- they're two of my favorite characters and so interesting and underrated.

11 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I wish they could have brought Linda Hunt in as Mapes for this version. She brought so much to the very small role. 

Oh, me too! I mean, why not? She would've been awesome. I always love seeing Linda Hunt again, and she's so talented. Don't even get me started on "The Year of Living Dangerously." She's always wonderful.

[DoctorAtomic]

Resurrection. I didn't want to watch Dune without being able to watch Part 2 because I knew the first part would be largely setup. I waited till they came to Max, and today, finally got around to it. 

I did enjoy part one here. I have read the books so I liked seeing all the beats play out. The visuals for the shields were cool. I did like the Voice too. And the thopter. Jessica was supposed to be really younger than Leto, and I did buy that. I liked that the worm was kind of kept hidden until later. Exposition wasn't clunky. Would non nook readers know what the Mentats were?

I would say that in the book, Leto knew going to Arrakis was a trap. I didn't see that here. He was just complaining about how they were set up to fail. I don't remember in the book if Paul was so self aware about the prescience. I did like that when everything went sideways, Paul kind of took over.   

I was surprised they didn't end on Duncan dying. Because he's the actual main character. They should have ended on Chiani taking off her mask. 

Minor criticisms - for 2 and a half hour movie, there weren't that many character beats. I think some of the battle could have been cut back. I do miss the internal monologues too. Kynes did it once when Paul put on the stillsuit, but I don't remember any others. I think you could have done some more of that than just Paul's visions. Although, practically at the time, you don't know you're getting the part 2, so you kind of have to hedge. 

It was still good though. Let's see what part 2 brings!

[Affogato]

On 11/17/2021 at 6:18 PM, Sandman said:

My memory of the book is faulty here, but I have the nagging sense that the role of the Shadout Mapes and the importance of the crysknife are both reduced significantly in the movie. The test of honour (or at the least test of understanding of Fremen culture) that the Shadout Mapes puts Jessica to is only hinted at, it seemed to me. On the other hand, the full extent of Dr. Yueh's treachery is vividly portrayed. (I almost wrote " ... was made much clearer in Villeneuve's movie than in Lynch's version," until I realized that a list of Stuff Much Clearer in the Villeneuve Version Than In Lynch's would keep me here all day.)

The Shadout Mapes is there to test Jessica, to see if she knows their ways. She doesn‘T, but she says something that convinces the Shadout Mapes that she does know. I think Jessica is going to say ‘maker of death’ but when she says ‘Maker’ the Shadout mapes reacts (because that is another word for the worm) and Jessica stops. Essentially it is a way for us to see how Jessica maneuvers, and how she has taught Paul. The famous ‘banquet scene’ wasn’t filmed in either version, but that is also an example of that. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Mapes had a bigger role in the books iirc. They also left out the scene of Jessica giving out the 'leftover water' or whatever, when the Harkonnens sold it, or something like that. 

They really missed a lot of those small things that could have showed why Leto inspired such loyalty and why Stilgar was more amenable to them versus the Harkonnens. 

They never even said why they were centuries long enemies. 

 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Mapes had a bigger role in the books iirc. They also left out the scene of Jessica giving out the 'leftover water' or whatever, when the Harkonnens sold it, or something like that. 

They really missed a lot of those small things that could have showed why Leto inspired such loyalty and why Stilgar was more amenable to them versus the Harkonnens. 

They never even said why they were centuries long enemies. 

 

For the same reason they don’t film the movie. You need to get to the desert. The stuff before is just…set up. There is a limit to bow much you need in a movie. 

[DoctorAtomic]

The entire first movie was set up. I'm saying they could have optimized the character beats with the sweeping vistas a little better. And something like Jessica giving away the water is set in Arrakis anyway.