Characters and Relationships in PLL: You Need to Take a Psychological Selfie Right Now.

[Derenaspoby]

Spoby is 100% my favorite ship, and my OTP (actually, battling OTP with Derena from Gossip Girl!). Anyways, I feel like Spencer and Toby are such a wonderful couple. I can't see Spencer falling in love with anybody else.

Despite all the hate Toby gets (for reasons I don't understand), I think he and Spencer have really great chemistry.

Okay, well now that I've gotten that out of the way, what do you guys think will happen to Toby after the 100th episode? Hospitalized? Injured? Totally fine?

[lorikauai]

I liked the Toby/Spencer chemistry from the episode where they played Scrabble together in the motel (I think they were spying on Jenna?). I was sad to see Toby as A but at least it did make sense. He had a reason to hold a grudge. I think the writers screwed up with the initial "I did it to protect you" explanation. That never made sense. They seemed to realize that because by the beginning of the next season they had A manipulating Toby by promising answers about his mom's death. If they had gone with that from the beginning I think it would have been more understandable. I think all of the girls have been forced to do something they didn't want to because A threatened or promised something.

I really hope Toby is not seriously injured. Didn't he already fall off a balcony? I'm tired of the significant others being injured or killed. Ezra just got out of the hospital. We've just had several episodes of a broken Aria. I don't need Spencer being a wreck again.

[Crim]

From S05.E05: Miss Me x 100 topic:

Please explain this to me. It's really ironic when you adore Alison/ship Emison while you hate Spoby and Toby.

I don't see how it's ironic, so it would help if you explained that. Since I'm not sure what you mean, I can only give this answer (and I've taken it here because it's not related to that particular episode): I like Ali because she is awesome - not the new weepy Ali, mind you, the old Ali who I think is still there and faking it (that's for the Ali topic though): she did horrible things and is quite possibly a psychopath, and I really like her, and think Sasha is amazing. I want to watch Ali all the time. She is a fantastic character. I've been recently raving in the Ali topic, and the more I see of her, the more I get back to really enjoying the show. I would watch a spin-off of Ali's roaming days. I would watch a mini-series of Ali's Night of a Thousand Events.

 

Meanwhile, I loathe Toby and want him off the show because I like Spencer most when she is away from him, because their scenes are boring and Troian has to carry them all by herself: Keegan Allen is just not that good of an actor and he often can't keep up. The show hasn't addressed Spencer forgiving Toby, BUT ALSO hasn't addressed much about his character: the Jenna thing, his family, his juvie do-rag days, his connection with Ali, his A stint, what he wants to do when Spencer leaves Rosewood for college, everything except that horribly drawn-out storyline about his mother, with that cheap ass resolution that will probably pay off later, but was still boring as fuck. So nothing would be lost except the Spoby ship if the actor left the show.

 

So, basically, for me it's not a matter of who is a better person or which pairing is less dysfunctional. Ultimately it comes down to what I want to watch.

 

what do you guys think will happen to Toby after the 100th episode? Hospitalized? Injured? Totally fine?

I don't see why he wouldn't be fine. The last we saw of him he was hurrying towards the house, and the house had already exploded (awesomely!), so why wouldn't he be physically fine? Did I miss something in the ending that indicated he was hurt?

Edited July 11, 2014 by Crim

[Derenaspoby]

Yeah, in the promo for the next episode, the house explodes again, and I think Toby might have gone inside, but I'm not sure.

And I don't understand people who say 'Oh, Alison has changed, and her feelings for Emily are so real! She never meant to hurt Emily!', but then they say 'Toby sucks'. Alison was a much worse partner than Toby ever was, and I actually dislike her character a lot. I don't understand why she keeps lying.

Keegan IS a good actor. I can't take people who say 'he's such a bad actor!'. Honestly, he carries the scenes the way he's supposed to do them. I've seen much worse acting, and in my opinion, he can make me feel emotional in his scenes, especially his season 1 scenes. Don't tell me you didn't think he did a good job of being mysterious in season 1? I guess people's taste in acting is subjective. I get it if you think Alison's an interesting character, and you think she's fun to watch, but please don't adore her relationship with Emily, and then dislike Spoby because you believe Toby is a jerk. Alison's a bigger jerk than he is, and in my opinion, Toby isn't even a jerk! How do you know Spencer and Toby didn't talk about the mental institution? You have to give Toby a little bit of slack. He didn't plan on putting Spencer in a mental instruction. Mona made it happen. He was fed up with Spencer keeping secrets. She kept on lying to him, and he got sick of it, so he decided to figure out what was going on himself.

We all know what Mona is capable of doing. She probably knew that Toby wasn't really going against Spencer, but put him on the team anyways because of her own plan to break Spencer. I mean, come on! I think Mona was the real double-crossed. It was her plan to break Spencer by putting Toby on the team. And Toby believed he was some kind of genius, because he probably though, 'Oh, this is a great opportunity! She thinks I'm actually against Spencer.' How was he supposed to know that Mona was actually using HIM? He thought he was using HER. So, he got tricked into it.

[lorikauai]

Idk. I still think the "I did it to protect you" excuse was weak. What exactly did he do as A that protected or helped Spencer? And I am someone who liked Toby in the beginning. Now I am ambivalent. The redemption was forced and Spencer was too ready to forgive and forget. It felt out of character for me.

[Cranberry]

I get it if you think Alison's an interesting character, and you think she's fun to watch, but please don't adore her relationship with Emily, and then dislike Spoby because you believe Toby is a jerk. Alison's a bigger jerk than he is, and in my opinion, Toby isn't even a jerk! How do you know Spencer and Toby didn't talk about the mental institution? 

 

They may have talked about it, but if they did, that's an important conversation that the audience should have seen. Instead, we got her forgiving him after no real explanation and immediately falling into bed with him. It rang false for a lot of viewers. It doesn't help that we have no real idea of how he actually helped the girls when he was on the A-Team.

 

I also don't think that anyone here is saying that Alison is a nice person -- it's pretty obvious that her default setting is "manipulative liar," whether she's actually trying to change or not. But she and Emily are interesting to watch for that exact reason, and also because Emily is suitably wary about her -- she's not as quick to forgive as Spencer was with Toby. It's just a juicier story line; it has nothing to do with which couple is more "loving."

 

I've also noticed that most people here (as at TWoP where many of us came from) are not really big into the "shipping" aspect of the show -- we may enjoy certain couples and dislike certain other couples, but they're not a big part of why we watch. We're not really thinking in terms of couple vs. couple, if that makes sense.

[mercfan3]

I think that's precisely it with Emily and Allison. I like the two together, but only if Allison is going to change (at least around Emily. She can be good to Emily but still be a mega bitch to Mona.) 

 

Alison was not Emily's partner when she was being..not so nice. And no, pretending that she didn't have feelings for Emily is not the same thing as putting Spencer into a mental hospital. Which is what Toby did.

 

But to me, the biggest issue, is that Toby never apologized. Alison not only apologized but specifically said she knows she has to earn her trust back. Even Ezra has attempted to redeem himself. The biggest problem with Toby, and why he is my least favorite of the males (and love interests) is that he has this arrogance about him. He was never in the wrong. And he makes Spencer feel afraid that she could lose him. 

Edited July 12, 2014 by mercfan3

[DigitalCount]

Toby didn't put Spencer into a mental hospital. Spencer had a breakdown that caused her to be placed on the most ridiculous involuntary hold in existence, but it wasn't exactly a foreseeable consequence of his actions.

[mercfan3]

He sat by and watched her break down without doing anything about it. And I can't buy that it was to protect her because the only person that hurt Spencer that season was Toby. 

[Crim]

I also don't think that anyone here is saying that Alison is a nice person <...>

I've also noticed that most people here (as at TWoP where many of us came from) are not really big into the "shipping" aspect of the show -- we may enjoy certain couples and dislike certain other couples, but they're not a big part of why we watch. We're not really thinking in terms of couple vs. couple, if that makes sense.

This is what I was thinking about too, as this discussion unfolded.

 

Derenaspoby, you are obviously a shipper, and there's nothing wrong or weird about that, but you seem to be talking to people you see on, say, tumblr when you post instead of what the... (do we have a name now that we are no longer TwoPers?) are saying. There are no ship wars here, at least partly because most of us come from TwoP and ship wars were explicitly forbidden there. Some dislike Ezzzria, some dislike Spoby, some dislike Ali/anyone or even Ali herself, but those are separate things because one does not have to pick a ship. In fact, on TwoP there was little of this talk in the PLL topic, except to bash the boring Ezria storylines and laugh at how Aria was always eating cake and/or cuddling on the couch while the other Liars were chased in forests, drugged, massaged, and hit by cars.

[Featherhat]

In the interests of being somewhat Spoby positive on this new site, that I was legitimately happy and somewhat amazed when the writers clearly decided to skip over the formerly "obvious" Emily/Toby in favour of making Emily out and proud once she had finally accepted herself and not romantically run to the nearest other "other" but yet still remain his strong supporter. Spoby were very interesting in the first season, especially as he was thankfully decidedly not either Ian or Wren and Ian's shadow hung low over her then. Sadly the A and Marion plotlines have killed anything I felt for them. One without the other might have been barable but the idea that Toby (oh so innocently!) sent his girlfriend into the arms of the institution his mother died in without so much as a sorry or even a solo anguished scene kills them dead for me, along with no other Toby compromise acknowledgement ever.

[Sakura12]

I used to think Toby/Spencer were cute in the beginning, the scrabble scene was one of my favs. They destroyed them by making Toby part of the A Team, where he was responsible for mentally damaging Spencer and sending her to a mental hospital. Then without a single apology spoken on screen she forgives him. Nope. That turned me off Toby's character for good. 

 

I also don't ship Emily/Alison, that's a toxic relationship as well. 

Edited July 13, 2014 by Sakura12

[Crim]

I'm starting this topic because there is a lot of talk in episode topics about relationships and characters in the larger context of all seasons. S05.E05: Miss Me x 100 is pretty much a relationship topic right now. (Cranberry, we could merge this with the Spoby topic, maybe?)

 

I'll pick up from the Miss Me topic. J2theK brought up Spencer kidnapping Malcolm vs Toby being A, and that reminded me of my own Ezra vs Ali "Stand and watch A torment them and do nothing" routine. I think what is easy to forget, PLL being such a crazy joyride of psychopathy and murder, is scale, so to say. This might not be the clearest term, but I'll get into what I mean: 

 

Ali was not just afraid for her life like other people were. Not only did she know someone wanted to kill her, but an attempt on her life was already made, and she was buried alive by her own mother. That shit happened. Even if one believes that Ali "had it coming", she still has more reason than anyone on the show, except Jenna, to do anything to protect her own skin. (And she still came through at critical moments, again and again, to save the Liars, even though returning to Rosewood could get her killed. This last part is debatable, but Ali had real reason to believe that. Plus, at least once there was a murder attempt: the lodge was set on fire.) Meanwhile, why did Ezra do nothing? To finish his book, to not lose Aria? Completely different scale.

 

And while Spencer kidnapped Malcolm and Aria freaked out and then the whole thing got solved pretty much immediately. We will never know for sure that Spencer would have brought Malcolm back ASAP if Aria really crashed and burned, because the show never went there, but we do know that Spencer got admitted to Radley and Toby did nothing. It's not always about what we do, it's also about what we do and don't do when our actions have consequences, and how far we are willing to go before the consequences of our actions become too much. No matter what happened to Spencer, Toby did nothing for her. In the end, she got it together and found him.

 

Yes, relationships on the show are toxic (except Emily's after/before Ali). And yes, Ali's relationships with the Liars are unhealthy, but they are presented as such in no uncertain terms. Meanwhile, other relationships are supposed to be wonderful and romantic and ship-worthy. Ali/Emily is a train-wreck and "Run, Emily, run!" would be the sane reaction, but in real life so would be Ezzzria and post-Radley Spoby. In all 3 cases someone forgave something huge out of love, with pretty much no safety net and with only minimum real discussion around it. And while Ali/Emily will be a longer story, I think we saw pretty much all there was to see about the Ezzria and Spoby reunions. In fact, the show seems to dedicate more attention to Ali's relationship with Hanna, which isn't a ship, but is such an important part of who Hanna is now. And I like this, I like that the show is about the Liars themselves and only secondarily about their romantic relationships. What I don't like is that this sweeps some of the unhealthiness of those relationships under the rug.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Crim

[larapu2000]

I really want Lucas and his imaginary girlfriend to make it.

 

If Hanna and Travis get together, he will be the only significant other that hasn't manipulated, harassed, exploited, stalked, or attempted to murder a Liar.

 

Hanna:  Sean-wouldn't sleep with her and made her attend abstinence classes (manipulated); Caleb-stalked and harassed her

Emily:  Maya-I guess she's okay; Paige-tried to murder her, later manipulated her; Ali-manipulated her

Aria:  Noel Khan-harassed, manipulated; Ezra-where do I start?????; the Karate Kid-I guess he's okay

Spencer:  Ian-again, where to start???; Wren-exploited a teenager; Toby-manipulated, harassed, stalked, arguably attempted to murder

 

But their parent's relationships aren't any better:

 

Hanna:  Father is massive douche, mom sleeps with asshole cop to get him to drop charges

Emily:  Only functioning and healthy parents in Rosewood

Aria:  Her dad fucked a student and paid a teenager money to cover it up

Spencer:  Her parents and sister have murdered someone.  Possibly several people.  And Melissa keeps getting engaged to and marrying creepers.

 

I guess the one thing that is consistent is that these girls wouldn't nurture toxic and abusive relationships if they had better examples.  And since Emily is the only one with 2 great parents, it makes sense that she is the one with the least worst relationships.

[mercfan3]

I feel like "stalked and harassed" is going a little too far for Caleb. He got paid to spy on Hanna a little bit, and if I remember, he did it because he thought it was some catty girl thing. It's not even close to the same thing as the rest of the love interests, and Caleb was actually redeemed. (To an extent Paige was too. But she and Emily have an unhealthy dynamic, something Caleb and Hanna never had..) 

 

Which is why, if they redeem Ali, I won't have an issue with Emily/Ali in the way that I think Toby/Spencer and Aria/Ezra is gross. Emily is clearly making Ali prove she has changed. And I'm one who really does not think Ali is as bad as a "psycho path." She was a bully. A queen bee. Manipulative. Yes, she blackmailed a lot of people, but we really don't know the extent of that was protecting herself. I'm not saying she was a nice girl, but I'm saying that we've gotten enough hints that Ali was deeper than just being a monster. 

 

With Toby and Ezra, I think it's really bad when Ezra comes out as the better of the two..considering what he did. They are both disgusting. Toby claimed he was joining the A team because he wanted to protect Spencer, Yet, he was the only "A" to ever hurt Spencer that season. He sat by and watched her break down. Meanwhile he found out nothing. Then, he never apologized. He got drawn back into A during the next season for selfish reasons. And forced Spencer to lie about it to the other liars (While Toby's cooperation with A was hurting the liars.) And once again, never apologized, and in fact..berates Spencer. (Makes her feel bad for lying, makes her feel bad for trying to help him, makes her feel bad for wanting to tell her friends.) Not only has he done horrible things to her. He's lacked any remorse, and in fact has made Spencer feel she is to blame for them. 

 

Ezra took advantage of a minor. He set her up for his own gain. He isolates her from her friends. He spent years stalking her and her friends, knowing they were in danger, and did nothing..until it was all about winning Aria back. But you know what, at least he apologized. At least he knew what he did (at least the stalking part..) was wrong. His actions are more disgusting than Toby's, but at least there is some semblance of remorse. Which makes him not as bad. (Although, let me be clear..they are both awful.) 

 

I hope, it's for the reasons I've said before, that Spencer desperately needs a safety net and Ezra is Aria's escape, and the writers know that these couples are as unhealthy as they actually are. And at least with Ezra/Aria, we've definitely seen hints of it. They can be together, I just want recognition that it is not a good situation. 

[Cranberry]

The Spoby topic had turned into more of a "compare and contrast" thing anyway, so I merged that thread into this one (thanks for the suggestion!). I also pinned Crim's post so that it would appear first; that means it will appear at the top of each page as well, but there's nothing I can do about that.

 

Now, please continue the character/couple discussion! You guys are great at debating without personally insulting each other, and I really appreciate it. I enjoy reading and participating in the discussions here.

[Chaos Theory]

I like Toby even if Keegan Allan is not a very good actor. I actually like Toby and Spencer as a couple. I think a lot of the problem was iffy writing after he was revealed to nor actually be on the A team. Plus sine KA is away doing other thins Toby is not around to defend himself like Ezra and others are.

As for Ali; for the record I do not ship her with Emily but I so like the way the story is progressing. I think Ali is using Emily and I am actually enjoying the storyline. Personally I like Paige and would like Emily to ultimately end up with her but before she can do that she needs to get Ali out of her system.

Ezra and Aria will always be awful but they were funny awful tonight. With the cop showing up at the door and the camera still in the hallway z

Hanna and Caleb matching flasks....awww

[larapu2000]

I feel like "stalked and harassed" is going a little too far for Caleb. He got paid to spy on Hanna a little bit, and if I remember, he did it because he thought it was some catty girl thing. It's not even close to the same thing as the rest of the love interests, and Caleb was actually redeemed. (To an extent Paige was too. But she and Emily have an unhealthy dynamic, something Caleb and Hanna never had..)

 

I don't dislike the Hanna/Caleb relationship at all, in fact, quite the opposite.  But he had spied on her, which I find an alarming violation of privacy in the worst possible way, and personally, I would classify that as harassment.  I understand if you don't put it in that box, but I was merely pointing out that the batting average for decent human beings being romantically entangled with these girls is abysmal.

[emma675]

 

I think Ali is using Emily and I am actually enjoying the storyline. Personally I like Paige and would like Emily to ultimately end up with her but before she can do that she needs to get Ali out of her system.

I am still ticked off at Emily's behavior towards Hanna last night, so that may be clouding my judgement, but I really hope that Ali is totally using Emily. I hate that Emily always puts Ali before all of the rest of the Liars, who have been nothing but good friends to her, and will attack anyone who goes against what Emily wants for Ali. I think it being exposed that Ali has been using Emily all this time (again) would be the perfect comeuppance. (And I truly enjoyed Ali more when she was being an evil bitch, tbh.)

[Crim]

I hate that Emily always puts Ali before all of the rest of the Liars

That's so in-character for Emily that I can't hate it. Sometimes it's good (like when she sees the good in someone and defends them), sometimes it's bad or unfair, but it's a straight-forward trait of Emily and she is always very upfront about it. When Spencer put Toby first during his boring investigation into his mother's death, there was something sneaky and toxic about it, IMO, in a way Emily wasn't tonight. Well, it helped that she was right about Hanna's reasons.

[Oholibamah]

The other day I had an out of body experience.

 

After spending the last 6 months wondering who the hell could possibly like Ezra, let alone Ezria, I was drunkenly discussing PLL with two girls who'd been a few grades below me in High School who I hadn't seen in a few years. When I asked who their favorite was and they both declared "Aria! I mean, hello... Mr. Fitz!!!" I must not have been able to hide my absolute disgust. After I made a lemon-face they declared: "Let me guess. You like SPENCER."

 

So I guess I have been forced to accept that there are truly people out there who not only somehow enjoy Ezra, but over Spencer to boot. But I may have been a happier person before I learned this.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Oholibamah

[DigitalCount]

Hanna:  Sean-wouldn't sleep with her and made her attend abstinence classes (manipulated)

I don't really think this is fair. Sean had a moral objection to premarital sex, and he tried to help her understand where he was coming from. If the roles were reversed Hanna wouldn't even need a reason not to have sex with him, but she was essentially asking him to forsake his belief system on her behalf.

Edited July 17, 2014 by DigitalCount

[mercfan3]

Yea. In general, Hanna's love interests (not including Wren) have been decent people. 

[M1977G]

 

I used to think Toby/Spencer were cute in the beginning, the scrabble scene was one of my favs. They destroyed them by making Toby part of the A Team, where he was responsible for mentally damaging Spencer and sending her to a mental hospital. Then without a single apology spoken on screen she forgives him. Nope. That turned me off Toby's character for good.

 

I lost interest in Toby, and therefore Spoby, right here. Years later, I'm beyond tired of Spoby, and find his story line vague and dull, even though I do think the actors do have great screen chemistry.  That chemistry isn't enough to make their story good, and I can't think of anything interesting they've really done with Toby as a character for at least three seasons, except have him take off his shirt.  I just posted elsewhere (before I saw this awesome new thread!) that I'd like to see Noel Kahn become a little wedge between Spoby to liven things up and reveal some answers to our big mysteries.  Noel doesn't have to be Spencer's love interest to drive this wedge between Spoby, but I wouldn't be mad at the writers if they leaned more towards Spencer and Noel than that Spencer and Andrew thing.  Noel definitely rubs Toby the wrong way--they nearly came to blows on the A train, knocking "Ali"body out of the ice cooler-- and Spencer and Noel had some great chemistry in their earlier face-offs.  I'd love to get some Spencer and Noel screen time with Spencer in detective mode and clashing with Noel in her search for answers.  This season it's been revealed that Noel knows a lot of pertinent secrets, and he has become a character of interest again for me.  It's still ambiguous whether he's trustworthy or what his motives are. He's been helping to hide Ali, but he also dated Mona and Jenna. I don't know that Noel's a more moral guy than Toby.  My guess is not, but he is way hotter with that pretty face.  My main points being, I guess, that I think Noel Kahn has answers and eye candy for us, and I want Spoby to be dunzo, or at least more interesting.

 

I've never been a Paily fan either, mostly because I don't trust Paige.  The girl had some serious anger management problems back in the day with Ali (not that she didn't have reason to be pissed, mind you), and exhibited them with Emily.  I think Lindsay Shaw is awesome as Paige when she's in scary mode--shoving Emily's head under water, knocking over trash cans after seeing Emily with Nate, etc--but she's so good that she really creeped me out at a fundamental level.  That kind of jealousy, threatening posture, and uncontrollable rage is potentially very sinister, and apparently for me, not to be forgotten easily.

 

 

As for Ali; for the record I do not ship her with Emily but I so like the way the story is progressing. I think Ali is using Emily and I am actually enjoying the storyline.

Yes.  I'm not ready for Ali to be redeemed, and it would be a much more interesting story line if she's playing poor Emily, at least on some level.  I think Ali has some real sociopathic tendencies (Sasha plays them with such charm!), and I don't think she's really changed.  She may be truly scared, and traumatized, and so so sorry she's been so mean to everyone, but I don't know that the girl has fundamentally changed who she is, which is a lying manipulator and blackmailer who has a kind of dark charisma and sexual allure that draws people into her cruelty (hello, Hefty Hanna) and hurts people with her immoral games (hello, blackmailing neighborhood dads).  One of my favorite flashbacks is the one where Ali is out to lunch with her mom and isn't getting her way, so she holds her breath until she nearly passes out.  I think that girl still exists.  To be fair, though, if her mom was as twisted as we are starting to think, Ali was bound to be all kinds of fucked up in the head, and that is bound to translate to her romantic and sexual relationships.

Edited July 17, 2014 by M1977G

[ban1o]

 

 

Hanna:  Sean-wouldn't sleep with her and made her attend abstinence classes (manipulated); 

 

Yeah I'm going to agree with digital count on this. I know Sean is a really minor character but I don't see how he manipulated her at all. He had a moral opposition to having sex which Hanna knew about early on. It's not like he was trying to control her. At Noel's party when he refuses to have sex with her se proceeds to crash his car. If the roles were reversed, we would be calling Sean an abusive jerk. I know if my boyfriend crashed my car because I refused to have sleep with him, I would have broken up with him immediately. He then forgives Hanna and it was Hanna's idea to go to the abstinence classes. He didn't force her at all. He even asked if she was sure she wanted to do it. 

 

In general Hanna has had pretty good and non-toxic relationships. Sean, Caleb and Travis are all pretty decent. 

[Chaos Theory]

Its a weird thing when it comes to women and violence. Paige committed a single violent act against Emily and that same episode went out of her way to apologize for it and yet two? Seasons later people are still using it as a reason to hate her while the male love interests have done far worse and far more often and the pairings have a rabid fan base and insist that they are good people and need to be forgiven or even the acts were never really bad to begin with.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[ban1o]

Its a weird thing when it comes to women and violence. Paige committed a single violent act against Emily and that same episode went out of her way to apologize for it and yet two? Seasons later people are still using it as a reason to hate her while the male love interests have done far worse and far more often and the pairings have a rabid fan base and insist that they are good people.

Although I like Paige I can understand why some fans don't like her because of it. They are under the belief that Paige literally tried to drown Emily, as in try to kill her. If one of the male love interests did that, they would react the same way, if not worse because it was a guy. 

[FurryFury]

. Paige committed a single violent act against Emily and that same episode went out of her way to apologize for it and yet two? Seasons later people are still using it as a reason to hate her while the male love interests have done far worse and far more often and the pairings have a rabid fan base and insist that they are good people and need to be forgiven or even the acts were never really bad to begin with.

 

Eh, it's not just a male thing. There are lots of Alison apologists, too.

 

I concur with those who used to like Spencer and Toby and then just stopped caring somewhere around 3b/season 4. Ditto for Caleb and Hanna, because they just became boring. Considering I find it hard to muster any enthusiasm for these two couples, utterly abhor Ezria and Emily/Alison and the show's general tendency to be all about romantic relationships now (the plot simply stopped really developing, and the characters don't change because of those stagnant relationships), I probably shouldn't be watching anymore. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Its a weird thing when it comes to women and violence. Paige committed a single violent act against Emily and that same episode went out of her way to apologize for it and yet two? Seasons later people are still using it as a reason to hate her while the male love interests have done far worse and far more often and the pairings have a rabid fan base and insist that they are good people and need to be forgiven or even the acts were never really bad to begin with.

 

I am not sure that the gender of the character is the decisive factor. Alison and Mona are rather popular and they have done much worse things than Ezra (or Paige for that matter).

[larapu2000]

Its a weird thing when it comes to women and violence. Paige committed a single violent act against Emily and that same episode went out of her way to apologize for it and yet two? Seasons later people are still using it as a reason to hate her while the male love interests have done far worse and far more often and the pairings have a rabid fan base and insist that they are good people and need to be forgiven or even the acts were never really bad to begin with.

 

I find both physical and psychological abuse to be equally abhorrent.  I don't hate Paige, but I certainly am not going to forget that she tried to drown Emily.  I would agree that Ezra is the WORST (on so very many, many levels), and I don't understand the rabid fan base that is okay with what Ezra or Toby did to the Liars, because I'm also not a Toby fan.  Any person that is capable of inflicting that kind of violence on another human being can be forgiven, but it's always driven me crazy that Emily dated Paige.  "She said she drowned me because she LOVES me!" sounds like abuse victim excuse #1.  

 

I'll concede on the Sean thing.  I thought it was him that wanted abstinence classes, not Hanna, so I'm mistaken.  I think I just hated the fact that (in my memory) he kind of treated Hanna like she was wrong or dirty for having sexual feelings.  No one is allowed to fuck with my Hanna, LOL!

[mercfan3]

Oh, I don't like Paige. I think her relationship with Emily is not healthy in the slightest, but in a lot more subtle and normal ways than how unhealthy the Ezra/Aria and Toby/Spencer relationships are unhealthy. 

 

If I was Emily's friend, I would have told her she needs to break up with Paige. If I was Aria or Spencer's friend, I'd be suggesting restraining orders. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Paige didn't try to drown Emily because she had no intention of, you know, murdering her. I totally understand people thinking that incident should have forever ruled out any romantic relationship between the two characters but dunking under water for the purpose of bullying, while a heinous thinking to do, isn't a drowning attempt. 

 

Also, I don't recall Emily forgiving Paige because of Paige's love for her, she has forgiven plenty of people that she don't have any romantic feeling for her (or she for them).

Edited July 17, 2014 by Jack Shaftoe

[Crim]

The other day I had an out of body experience.

 

After spending the last 6 months wondering who the hell could possibly like Ezra, let alone Ezria, I was drunkenly discussing PLL with two girls who'd been a few grades below me in High School who I hadn't seen in a few years. When I asked who their favorite was and they both declared "Aria! I mean, hello... Mr. Fitz!!!" I must not have been able to hide my absolute disgust. After I made a lemon-face they declared: "Let me guess. You like SPENCER."

 

So I guess I have been forced to accept that there are truly people out there who not only somehow enjoy Ezra, but over Spencer to boot. But I may have been a happier person before I learned this.

I feel for you. I had this exact conversation with someone who marathoned the entire show and, when she got to the EzrA story line, she told me the show went too far because that was her favorite couple! And Ezra was an awesome guy; oh why did he have to be involved in the A business? Best part - and why I'm mentioning this. She is in her mid-twenties. I agree with you: it was a surreal experience. I knew there were Ezria fans, but I thought they were all silly tweens making a ruckus on twitter and tumblr and writing absolutely awful fanfiction about Aria getting pregnant. This is an adult, age-wise. It was like... dunno, discovering your neighbor is a Twihard Mom.

 

Emily used to be very forgiving, yes. The only person she didn't forgive was Jenna, and that was out of loyalty to Toby. She's become much harder now though. I was worried that the show had Emily break up with Paige just to have Emison shenanigans, but the show at least averted that. First, there was no will-they-won't-they game for 10 episodes while Emily was pining as before, and second, Emily's reaction to Ali's lie was swift and simple and similar to when she dumped Paige. So at least there is that, the fact that Emily rejecting Paige was part of her character development and her current actions are still consistent with it.

[Sakura12]

Eh, it's not just a male thing. There are lots of Alison apologists, too.

 

I concur with those who used to like Spencer and Toby and then just stopped caring somewhere around 3b/season 4. Ditto for Caleb and Hanna, because they just became boring. Considering I find it hard to muster any enthusiasm for these two couples, utterly abhor Ezria and Emily/Alison and the show's general tendency to be all about romantic relationships now (the plot simply stopped really developing, and the characters don't change because of those stagnant relationships), I probably shouldn't be watching anymore. 

 

Don't get me started on the Emily/Alison fans. I loved Alison because she was such a heartless bitch. I do not thinks she was some lost little girl that treated everyone horribly because she hurting inside. Alison threw a firecracker in an enclosed space with someone inside. Nice people do not do that without the intent to cause harm. 

 

I keep wanting to quit this show, but they always manage to draw me back in. But I don't know if I can deal with the same things for 2 more seasons. The relationships taking over most the show being the biggest factor since it is a way to keep the show stagnant. Ezzzzaria is the worst because all they do is talk about their relationship in every single scene they have together. 

 

Now if they could make them do all the Ezzzaria scenes like this with the sound happening to be missing I'd be fine with it. 

[mercfan3]

See, I like Ali/Emily. 

 

Not because I think it's a great healthy relationship. (Although if Ali is redeemed, it's possible.) But because it's so much more complicated and interesting than Ezra/Aria or Toby/Spencer. 

 

I don't think Ali is some scared little victim. But I don't think she's a psychopath either. I think we've seen enough of her to know that she's complex and there is some good in there. She's not as much of a mystery as Jenna and Melissa but just as intriguing because there are so many layers to her. 

 

And I like the character Aria. But I like all of the girls. 

 

Ezria though..is disgusting..it was boring, but I'll give the writers credit here. I think Ezra has been much more interesting since they've given him something to do besides being Aria's whipped boyfriend. His conversation with the detective was intense, and Ian keeps showing hints of mega creep..instead of just "as a mature viewer, i know this character is a huge creep, but they aren't showing signs of it at all throughout the show."

Edited July 18, 2014 by mercfan3

[Cranberry]

I like Emily/Ali, too, but not because I think it's a healthy, loving relationship. I like it because it's interesting to watch. I also don't think that Ali is pure evil (we know from flashbacks that despite the front she puts up, Ali is a scared teenager who's in over her head) or is entirely using Emily (there have been hints all along that she's at least fond of Emily -- the scene where she wistfully discusses them running away to Paris is an example; that didn't read as manipulative to me, and I believe at that point Ali was planning to leave town and had no reason to continue to manipulate Emily). However, she's definitely not a great person at the core; her default behavior is to lie even when she doesn't have to, and I'm sure she's always sizing people up and filing away their weaknesses even when she likes them.

 

I also like Paige, and I don't believe for a second that she was actually trying to kill Emily when she dunked her head under water. However, I agree that there's an anger simmering just below the surface and that Paige could easily explode with the right provocation.

[mercfan3]

Yea, I don't think she was trying to kill emily, but I don't know what else to call it besides "made Emily think she was going to try and drown her." Whatever it was, it wasn't good. 

 

But for me, that's not why I don't like Paige and Emily. Paige has a lot of insecurities that just make that dynamic really unhealthy. LIke I said, it's not Toby/Ezra unhealthy. But it's unhealthy. Although, like Ali, I think Paige is capable of growing to a place where it could be healthy. 

[FurryFury]

I very much doubt these writers will resist making Ali/Emily a "love redeems" pairing, because they are all about sweeping every bad deed done by popular love interests under the table. I'd love it if it was a dark psychological manipulative game for Ali, but don't kid yourself, it's not. She'll be redeemed in an awkward and unbelievable way, just like Ezra is. This is the kind of show that PLL is.

Edited July 18, 2014 by FurryFury

[superman1204]

I am on the line about the Ali/Emily pairing.  I do ship them but I would still hate to see another "love redeems" pairing.  The main reason I want to see them together is because I want Emily to have some kind of closure with Alison, however that closure comes about.

 

The only reason I have think the writers don't plan to push aside all of the very real issues with Ali/Emily is because the writers have consistently written Emily as assertive with her significant others.  She broke up with Paige the first time because Paige wasn't willing to come out and Emily wasn't willing to hide who she was in a relationship with.  She got mad with Maya when Maya starting smoking pot even though she had already been sent away for it once.  She broke up with Paige the second time because Paige was being too controlling.  She even broke up/stopped hooking up with Alison because Alison started lying again.  While the writers tend to let us down, I can't see them consistently writing Emily as assertive just to over look major issues in her relationship with Alison.  Hopefully the writers will do one of three things; have Alison work through her issues with Emily, have Emily reject Alison because of how unhealthy a relationship with her would be, or have the two girls get together but fully acknowledge that the relationship is not a healthy one and that Emily is regressing because of how manipulative Alison is.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

I am on the line about the Ali/Emily pairing.  I do ship them but I would still hate to see another "love redeems" pairing.  The main reason I want to see them together is because I want Emily to have some kind of closure with Alison, however that closure comes about.

 

Didn't Emily reject Alison and everything she stood for literally an episode before suddenly making a U-turn and becoming desperate to help her? I mean, my memories of S4 are vague at best but I do remember something like this happening and me literally facepalming. So much of the Liars' character development is tied to rejecting Alison that i's rather painful for me to watch them revert to certain bad habits with her being around. Her being alive doesn't make her any less of a sorry excuse for a human being than when they believed her dead. Yet they don't even bother pressing her with questions about the million things they need to ask her like how she knew when to drop by and save Emily in 2.12.

 

Basically I think the writers are trying to walk satisfy everyone and end up not really satisfying anyone. They give some bitch Alison moments for those who enjoy that and they add further sob story elements for Alison to balance things up. Nothing is really explored in depth because the writers seem to operate under the delusion that "cryptic remarks/flashbacks=depth" and probably will decide what to do with Alison next based on which fan faction is most vocal on Twitter. Add to that the huge contrivance of Alison staying in Rosewood in the first place and the result isa me rolling my eyes every time she shows up on screen.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Jack Shaftoe

[M1977G]

Since upthread I said I may never trust Paige and her anger management issues, I feel I should also defend her a little by pointing out that I think her intense anxieties, competitiveness, and sexually closeted years seem to all relate to her dad and unhealthy home life.  This is the dude who showed up at school to challenge Emily's place on the swim team because she is gay.  (Standing up to him may have been the one time Ezra did something adult and morally decent!)  For me, it wasn't just Paige's actions when she got upset, it was the incredibly intense look in her eyes and the set of her jaw that made me think, holy shit, this girl is not totally in control.  As far as drama, I loved it, but as for a character I'm supposed to get behind romantically, I don't think so.

 

So, like Ali, Spencer, Aria, and Hanna (her pops, not our beloved if sometimes morally ambiguous Ashley!), Paige has at least one problematic parent raising her. Ali being the most mentally twisted by her parental insanity, probably, but let's not dismiss Aria's recurring affair with her stalker teacher.  I keep harping on it, but the parenting in Rosewood is seriously a joke, yet necessary to such much of the PLL plot.  Perfect for a family channel.  Where would we be if Mrs. D and Mr. H hadn't had at least one love child, and Ali hadn't started blackmailing her friends' parents over their affairs?  Not visiting Rosewood on a weekly basis, I imagine.  I'm hoping these next few episodes will give us more about some of the liars' parents, and more insight into family dynamics--especially with the DiLaurentis and Hastings clans, and most especially 

with the pending appearance of Mona's mother. I just can't wait to meet the woman who spawned MonA and see what they are like together! Is she a desperate social climber psycho like Mona?  Does she live in Stepford denial of what's up with her kid?  Is she in on Mona's army?  Did she sleep with Mr. Hastings, too?  Can. Not. Wait!

 

Edited July 18, 2014 by M1977G

[Crim]

Standing up to him may have been the one time Ezra did something adult and morally decent!

I'd have been more impressed had Emily not been one of Aria's friends so that standing up for her didn't score any points with Aria. Seeing as Ezra was manipulating Aria from the first time they met, I'm never giving him the benefit of a doubt.

 

I agree that their parents are tremendously fucked up. Mrs D is the worst, and I think the show is setting up more awful reveals. Knowing what Ali did of her parents, it would have taken a lot for a child to grow up sane and sound. We joked a lot about the silliness of the show's insistence on Jason's drug abuse, but I now think it was less of a "drugs/alcohol really mess you up, kids" and more about how fucked up he was as he used this as an escape. Mr D is no peach either, what with the way he was treating Jason - justified or not, that was pretty shitty, and spoke volumes of what the DiLaurentis saw in their children.

 

While the writers tend to let us down, I can't see them consistently writing Emily as assertive just to over look major issues in her relationship with Alison.

ITA. Besides, if they did it, I think they would haven't have had Emily call Ali on her lie and then really kept her distance. Next episode it also doesn't seem that Emily is thrilled when her mother invites Ali to dinner (Well, that may be due to flashbacks of how awful Maya was in those situations. I kid. I kid.) so it looks like she isn't caving in yet.

[M1977G]

 

We joked a lot about the silliness of the show's insistence on Jason's drug abuse, but I now think it was less of a "drugs/alcohol really mess you up, kids" and more about how fucked up he was as he used this as an escape. Mr D is no peach either, what with the way he was treating Jason - justified or not, that was pretty shitty, and spoke volumes of what the DiLaurentis saw in their children.

ITA to the first part.  But can you remind me about the second part?  So freaking much happens on this show, and I never gave Mr. D much thought til this season, and frankly not that much even now.  He's only been interesting to me this season because Ali obviously loves him, and he did the right thing by telling her if she'd been sexually assaulted she needed to tell somebody.  Refresh my memory of his awfulness to Jason, please?  I'm not doubting, mind you, just forgetful.

[superman1204]

 

I'd have been more impressed had Emily not been one of Aria's friends so that standing up for her didn't score any points with Aria. Seeing as Ezra was manipulating Aria from the first time they met, I'm never giving him the benefit of a doubt.

When I read this, my first thought was that Ezra should be given the benefit of the doubt in that situation, because he really didn't need to score any points that early in their relationship, Aria's daddy issues handled everything for him.  Then I remembered he was still writing his book at that point or had just stopped.  At best he helped Emily because he felt bad about stalking and lying to Aria and her friends.  More likely he was thinking "I should help Emily in case Aria ever finds out about my book.  The nicer a guy she thinks I'm, the less episodes I will have to wait to have creepy makeup sex with her while a song about stalking plays in the background."  Way to go show.  You took a statutory rapist man child teacher and managed to make him into an even less likable character.  Congrats.

Edited July 19, 2014 by superman1204

[Crim]

Mr D and Jason, it just seemed that every word that came out of Mr D's mouth was basically "you are a fuck up, you are a fuck up". For example, just before the funeral. He did right by Ali this season, but this could be due to the extreme events, after all he never was there to mediate in the scenes with her mother. Btw, were we ever told how and when Mr D found out Jason wasn't his biological son? Was it just during the Melissa/Jason "Oh Noes, It's Incest!" drama?

 

Ezra might have also been trying to score points with Aria's friends. It was only late in the relationship, when things were going downhill for him, that he tried to isolate her from them. He needed her connection to people actually involved with stuff so that he had more material to write. It's not like he was planning to write about Aria herself, since that would have been as boring as watching them was.

[M1977G]

I went back and watched the funeral episode, and that definitely jogged my memory about Mr. D and Jason.  Somehow in all my obsession about Mrs. D and Mr. H this season, I kind of forgot that means Jason grew up in a house where his dad knew he wasn't his biological son, and that Mr. D raised a kid he knew was his neighbor's son.  Duh.  I'm thinking Hastings neighborhood block parties back in the day were either very strained events, or some pretty salacious fun.

[Jack Shaftoe]

I have realized that another reason why I can't stand Emily/Alison is that it follows the tired cliché of "He/she treats everyone else horribly, so this must think he/she considers me special". Nope it just means he/she is a jerk or worse. Especially when the people that have suffered the most from this person's nastiness include your three closest friends, your ex-girlfriend, the guy you fought so hard to protect from the accusations of your friends (Toby) and so on. Overlooking all that just because that person is occasionally nice to you is so... Bella Swan-like. 

[SJiles]

I know people say that Alison treated Hanna, Aria and Spencer bad but what did she ever do to Aria exactly

Edited July 22, 2014 by SJiles

[Bort]

Nothing, nobody ever does anything bad to Aria.

Even if they do, she just lets them slip right back in (I just grossed myself out).

[Crim]

The one person who did bad things to Aria was her father's lover, because Aria is a pwincess so of course she is threatened by her crazy, evil almost-stepmother.