Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

So those two choices really undermined the moment where Lewin raised his veil and signified that he was a new type of Aiel.

To be fair there, when his mother spurned him, the last shot was of him putting the veil up. So I think that got across.

 

[SueB]

Full spoilers.  Skip if you haven’t read the Book Series. 
 

Liked:
- I think they had to simply the object of power with it being Callendor and the new sphere thing (the Sarkarnen) vs Choden Kal. - Both future and Past scenes were very wel done

Dislikes:
- I will be major disappointed if Mat doesn’t go thru the Doorframe   I’m not sure Moraine will be going through the Doorframe. If she does, I suspect it’s only if there is a S4.  
 

On the fence:
- Mieran implies there is no technology in the future because people are still harvesting with hand tools   That’s a departure from what was always implied from the book version of the Age of Legends.  
- Egwene’s punk rock look   Not a fan.  

 
 

 

Speculation:

I think there is a good chance that if they were to make it to the end, it’ll only be Moraine and Rand.  Rosamund Pike’s Moraine is not going to play second banana to the character Nynaeve.

Moraine’s visions (IMO) showed Lanfear killing her but only after she slept with Rand.  So they may be simplifying her Lanfear conflict to be a fate she avoids.  
There was no path they showed where she was successful nn but I think k Moraine knows one.  And I don’t think she’ll bond Rand.  
 

Which leaves, ‘what to do with Lanfear?’ IMO they’ve made her very popular, although a psycho killer.  At least they S3, I think we’ll keep up the ‘influence’ triangle with Rand, Moraine, and Lanfear all trying to steer the ship.

 

 

 

[Atlanta]

It has been awhile since I read the books, but didn't Mat go through Rhuidean? IIRC, it is important for not just the character, but the story in general. But the show runner doesn't seem to care about the source material. I keep watching hoping it gets better. Mat and Nynaeve were my favorites.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I think they had to simply the object of power with it being Callendor and the new sphere thing (the Sarkarnen) vs Choden Kal.

I thought in the last Rand flashback that the ball controlled a larger object. So it's the controller for the Choden Kal on the women's side. Rand doesn't need a controller. 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Moraine’s visions (IMO) showed Lanfear killing her but only after she slept with Rand.

I think they all showed Lanfear slashing Moiraine's throat. I know the actor has been the main character for the first two seasons, but she's got to be taken off the board at some point. I mean, she's Gandalf. I think in the show, Moiraine has to take out Lanfear. It's too important, and they really set it up hard.

12 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

It has been awhile since I read the books, but didn't Mat go through Rhuidean? IIRC, it is important for not just the character, but the story in general. But the show runner doesn't seem to care about the source material. I keep watching hoping it gets better. Mat and Nynaeve were my favorites.

The behind the scenes episodes suggest to me that the showrunner is well steeped in the source material from what I've watched. As we all know, Mat was told to go to Rhuidean when he went through the doorway in Tear, which hasn't happened yet on the show (Tear), but was referenced clearly enough (they said Callandor several times) that they're going to have that play out. 

Given already that Mat knows he's a hero of the horn. He didn't say 'I remember now' in the books when he first blew the horn, and had his memories awaken on the show, which hadn't happened in the books until 5 when he got hanged, and that Rand was the one that rescued Mat from hanging, which Min already saw on the show, it's not too much of a stretch that on the show, Mat still walks through the doorway in Tear, but they compress that with Rhuidean, so he still ends up hanged, give up half the light of the world, daughter of the nine moons, and Rand is still there to rescue him with the same result, after Rand does it up with Callandor. 

I've been straight up from the start that I'm not a book purist; I mean, that's a whole other discussion, and there's some criticisms to level at the show, but the show runner seems to understand the big beats that need to be hit either by saying it in the behind the scenes, and they've all been shown or said on the show already; Tear, Mat hanging, Callandor, Moiraine/Lanfear. If it's not working at this point, than maybe it's just not going to be for this turn of the wheel. 

[quarks]

20 hours ago, Atlanta said:

It has been awhile since I read the books, but didn't Mat go through Rhuidean? IIRC, it is important for not just the character, but the story in general. But the show runner doesn't seem to care about the source material. I keep watching hoping it gets better. Mat and Nynaeve were my favorites.

Two things:

1. Mat didn't go through Rhuidean; he went to Rhuidean. And only because he had stepped through a certain twisted doorframe and encountered the Aelfinn, who told him to go to Rhuidean, where he found a second twisted doorframe, and entered that. He never used the items found only in Rhuidean - the glass columns, the arches, or the sa'angreal. 

Which means that Mat, as a character, doesn't need to go to Rhuidean - he just needs to go through a twisted doorway. We've already seen one of those on the show, in Tar Valon.

And based on Min's visions in episode three and a certain medallion in this season's poster, I think Mat will be going through a twisted doorway at some point in the next four episodes. 

2. Showrunner Rafe Judkins just forced his cast and crew to spend several days filming in extreme heat, and spent a rather significant amount of money to show us Rhuidean. (That shot of the Aiel singing just before things went booooooom? VERY EXPENSIVE SHOT.) So my sense is that he does care, quite a bit, about the source material.

Thing is, he's not the final decision maker. That's Sony and Amazon, who are mostly interested in money, and who have demanded at least some changes to the original scripts. The show also has to deal with the reality that it will get at most 8 seasons (and that might be optimistic), and Covid. 

[MissLucas]

I think focussing on Rand (and to a lesser extent Moraine) was the right decision - the reveal about the Aiel and their history is so explosive that Mat showing up in all that would have been a massive distraction. Truth be told that's exactly how I felt reading the books when Rand was not given much time to digest what he just experienced because he had to do CPR on his friend.

As @quarks has pointed out that particular part of Mat's journey does not necessarily have to take place in Rhuidean and Min's vision makes it clear that it will happen.

[DoctorAtomic]

If the show still has Mat go through two doorways, then he still can do the first at Tear and then the other one. 

[Danny Franks]

19 hours ago, quarks said:

Two things:

1. Mat didn't go through Rhuidean; he went to Rhuidean. And only because he had stepped through a certain twisted doorframe and encountered the Aelfinn, who told him to go to Rhuidean, where he found a second twisted doorframe, and entered that. He never used the items found only in Rhuidean - the glass columns, the arches, or the sa'angreal. 

Which means that Mat, as a character, doesn't need to go to Rhuidean - he just needs to go through a twisted doorway. We've already seen one of those on the show, in Tar Valon.

Right. It's nice that Mat goes to Rhuidean in the books, because there is a camaraderie between him and Rand that's welcome (although Mat is still secretly thinking of ways to get away from Rand for pretty much the whole journey). But he absolutely doesn't need to be there, if the twisted doorway isn't there.

We know they've not abandoned the Aelfinn/Eelfinn because of Min's viewing of Mat hanged. Though my guess is they'll combine them so he only goes through one doorway. So it's just a case of putting the doorway somewhere else. In Tanchico, Tar Valon or Tear is perfectly fine.

19 hours ago, quarks said:

2. Showrunner Rafe Judkins just forced his cast and crew to spend several days filming in extreme heat, and spent a rather significant amount of money to show us Rhuidean. (That shot of the Aiel singing just before things went booooooom? VERY EXPENSIVE SHOT.) So my sense is that he does care, quite a bit, about the source material.

Thing is, he's not the final decision maker. That's Sony and Amazon, who are mostly interested in money, and who have demanded at least some changes to the original scripts. The show also has to deal with the reality that it will get at most 8 seasons (and that might be optimistic), and Covid. 

Thank you. The cudgel of "Judkins/the writers don't care about the source material" is beyond tired, and utterly disproven with every episode. There's no way they could not know and care about the source material to produce the adaptation they have. Because it's absolutely clear that they're thinking about how to adapt the entire story, rather than just adapting scenes or chapters or even books. They're having to think several books ahead with every decision they make, and you can't do that without knowing them very well.

It's also curious that so many of the people who say that the writers don't care about the source material are often misremembering or selectively remembering the source material themselves.

I will also say that, when it comes to Mat, it's absolutely clear that they want to do his book three storyline, which is very popular with book readers, but they don't want to do the book three storylines for anyone else. Which is fine, because book three is no one's favourite Rand, Perrin or Egwene material.

[DoctorAtomic]

I like the books or I wouldn't be watching or commenting, but the showrunner is also saddled with, let's call it what it is, rather misogynist and repetitive content. With all the hand wringing, braid pulling, spanking, Rand/Mat/Perrin would know what to do, 'men!' nonsense. The series should have been nine books tops. 

[quarks]

16 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I like the books or I wouldn't be watching or commenting, but the showrunner is also saddled with, let's call it what it is, rather misogynist and repetitive content. With all the hand wringing, braid pulling, spanking, Rand/Mat/Perrin would know what to do, 'men!' nonsense. The series should have been nine books tops. 

Yeah. In a very, very real sense, the show is also saddled with decisions made by Tor Books/Macmillan back in the mid-90s and early 00s.

Decisions understandable at the time, but not necessarily things that the showrunner needs to focus on now, especially given that for purely pragmatic reasons, Amazon and Sony can't be, how to put this, as indulgent of certain things (not just LENGTH, but also LENGTH) as Tor Books/Macmillan could be.

[SueB]

Having finished EP5 (yikes!   It’s moving so freaking fast!) there is a lot to love (IMO) about the adaptation. 
 

Bits:

- The Windfinder’s channelling at sea is GORGEOUS!!
- I love how they’ve portrayed Suian.  Sophie Okenado is an Academy Award nominated actress - she’s an amazing talent.  And this fully explored Moraine/Siuan relationship is so much more than I expected from Siuan.  Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of Siuan/Gareth in the books.  But they are leveraging the talent of this actress and showing how difficult the White Tower is at the same time.  I’m a fan. 
- Lan and Moraine drinking Oosquai! Such a clever way of giving us the depth of that relationship in a sweet scene. 
- I am about as uncertain of Moraine’s future as Miraine is.  
- I like the use of Egwene’s Dream walking to tie the Edmond 5+ together.  I was not a fan of the ‘training’ - non-book readers must be confused.  
- Rand and Lanfear continue to sparkle.  Who knew?  Ultimately she’s evil and that betrayal is going to shatter Rand. Interestingly enough, I think she’s been both manipulative and transparent about her evilness.  
- They killed Natti!!!  Ouch.  That is going to weigh so heavily on Perrin   I was shocked they showed Bode channelling.
- Alana’s story was also good (you reactivated the bond 5 arrows ago - ha! Needed humor).  Who is going to heal her?
- I liked the Mistress of the Ship helping Nynaeve    I would love if she got her block broke sooner rather than later.
- Faile is definitely an improvement over the book IMO 
- Elayne dreaming of Aviendah!  I’m okay with it because it ties the importance of their relationship   
- May and Min team up still works for me. It looks like he has a bigger story next episode.  He needs his hat.  
- Elaida:  I hiss when she walks on screen   Nicely played.
- I see you Verin!   Clever woman.

 

In sum, I think Justin’s is getting the essence of the characters just right   And his re-spinning (pun intended!) is working for me   

 

 

 

[Danny Franks]

A couple of bits that kind of bother me - 

Alanna getting pin cushioned without another Aes Sedai to heal her. I worry that they're going to somehow have Bode Cauthon heal her, which just seems to be an egregious simplification of how using the One Power works.

Egwene being good enough to find all the dreams she wants to see, after what seems like a few nights of practice (at most).

Honestly, I like the messy, soap opera stuff with Lanfear. She's so vindictive, it makes me wonder whether she actually pulled Egwene into Rand's dream. If she did, that's amazing.

The Whitecloaks burning Natti Cauthon will probably outrage some book readers, despite Natti never having a single line of dialogue in the books. The Whitecloaks in the show are obviously far more ruthless and effective than in the books, and they have to be, to be seen as a real threat.

[DoctorAtomic]

There's just a ton of Book 5 to cram into the show, I don't know why they have to limit the episode run times. I mean, I like Stranger Things, but each 'episode' is like 4 days long. I thought the advantage of streaming was that you didn't have constraints like run time. 

The actor was a great choice, and I know it's in the books, but wow is Eliada just as much of an idiot as I remember. At least in the show, she's an actual person. I don't know about you all, but she was a cardboard cutout in the books for me. Also, I never felt her motivations were made clear enough for me. At least the show is showing she's kind of dumb too. 

Are they going for the plot of the Wise Ones with Egwene pretending to be Aes Sedai? It hasn't seemed like it. 

Hey, Sea Folk! I'm surprised Elayne didn't figure out they were channeling even being below the deck. Nice effects of the channeling on the ship though. 

Were Rand and Egwene still together in Book 5? I thought they broke it off in 3. It's not a big deal. They're going to have to eventually on the show. I think them breaking up was probably the only mature scene between a man and a woman in the entire series. 

I wish the show did more with the dice in Mat's head. Moiraine said on the show that the guys were all ta'veren. That's been about it though. Mat going with them to Tanchico is probably their best plan. 

Even in the last episode, everyone in the Two Rivers deciding to stay and fight was because of Perrin. It would be cool to see the color swirl or something. 

Min and Mat being the plucky platonic friendship is great for the show, but it pales with him and Silverbow. They better be bringing her on. 

There's no question the actor playing Lanfear is killing it. I cannot wait until Moiraine takes her out.

I hope the nonbookers realize how incredibly powerful Egwene is to be able to walk the Dream. Even though she is always hilariously confused at what she's wearing. 

9 hours ago, SueB said:

I am about as uncertain of Moraine’s future as Miraine is.

She has to take Lanfear out. The showrunner clearly knows the big beats to hit, and that's a big one. You think they're going to not do the Tower and take her off the board completely? Mat still needs to lose half the light of the world, so that would throw a wrench into it. Unless he gets the foxhead for the eye? "I don't 'live' if Rand does'. 'Live is operative. She's not necessarily 'Moiraine' after the Tower. 

9 hours ago, SueB said:

I would love if she got her block broke sooner rather than later.

I would too, but they might be setting it up that she goes ballistic on the Spider. The show needs to show that our current denizens are a match for the Forsaken at some point. 

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Egwene being good enough to find all the dreams she wants to see, after what seems like a few nights of practice (at most).

I'm with you, but like with Ny breaking the block, I think the show needs to establish sooner than later that these people are a serious match for the Forsaken. If only to show that it's not going to be all Rand. In that vein, I'm actually a little disappointed they didn't show Elayne at least helping out with the Windfinder. In a sense, it's a mutually assured destruction. Both sides need to be shown as having nuclear weapons. Because I think it's important to show that, 'well, you want the good guys and ladies to win, but, in the process, is everything just going to be destroyed?'

The show hasn't really conveyed what the Breaking was. Literally the entire earth was reshaped. They haven't even shown the Prologue yet. That's super important to what these people can actually do. And, for me, the book ending just wasn't nearly the breaking it should have been. 

 

[SueB]

Add me to the ‘that was fast’ crowd for Egwene’s dreams. And taking Moraine?  New feature. Plus just crashing into others dreams is kind of rude.  She certainly got an eyeful with Rand.  I agree Lanfear is manipulating things.  

Conversely the initial ‘don’t go without us’ caution from the Wise One’s and their super vague descriptions seemed like we were going to get very little info.  They also implied Egwene has already surpassed their skill.  I wish they didn’t do that.  
 

Finally, they refer to her as Egwene Sedai so she’s clearly posing as a full sister. Not sure what Aviendah thinks as she was with them in Tar Valon.   
 

Edited Friday at 04:07 AM by SueB
Typo

[quarks]

1. This didn't happen in the books, but in the show, I'm kinda wondering if the reason Egwene could so easily slide into everyone's dreams after what seemed to be at most a few weeks of training was because Lanfear was "helping."

And I wondered if Lanfear also tweaked some of those dreams just a bit, given the unlikelihood that everyone in that group just happened to be having a happy dream just then - especially since that seems, well, unlikely. I do buy Elayne's happy dream - she's out on an adventure, not having to deal with her mother and do chores. And to a certain extent Nynaeve's - it's not surprising that she's still dreaming of her Arches daughter. But Mat was just told that Min had a vision of him hanging from a rope - a vision that matches some of his previous visions, and Perrin just found the burned body of the mother of his best friend. And, ok, sure, I can assume that some of this might be happening on different nights, but I still think Mat and Perrin shouldn't be dreaming happy dreams - yet.

Though it was interesting to see that Perrin, unlike the others, did seem to realize that he was dreaming, and that Egwene was really there....

2. Not thrilled to see the Sea Folk, if we're being honest. Started off as such a cool concept in the books and turned into arguably the second most annoying concept/group in the books.

3. Still kinda wondering what the show is doing with Min. It's great that she's now with more of the group, and the bit about how she's a terrible seer, servant and spy was hilarious - but if the show is still planning on doing the whole Rand, Min, Elayne and Aviendha thing, well, they aren't giving us that many hints in that direction. They did let Rand - and the audience - know that the Aiel are poly, and that Aviendha is definitely open to this sort of thing, and they've now given us several scenes of Aviendha and Rand. They've given us a couple of scenes with Elayne and Rand, and reminded us that Elayne and Aviendha are definitely a thing. Min? Not so much. She had a couple of scenes with Rand in the first season, and she saw Rand holding a baby, but most of her visions of Rand have involved Rand dying, not Rand being with her.

Throw in that Rand is definitely interested in Lanfear, and....again, just kinda wondering what the show is doing with Min. 

4. In the books, Aviendha did not know that Egwene was just an Accepted. In the show, I think Aviendha almost has to know. So if she does, kinda wondering how that dynamic will change once the Wise Ones figure out that Egwene has been lying. More than once. 

5. I....think I'm liking Faile in the show. Send help.

[DoctorAtomic]

13 hours ago, SueB said:

Finally, they refer to her as Egwene Sedai so she’s clearly posing as a full sister.

I only heard it once though. In the books, Egwene knew she was playing a ruse. I don't get that impression on the show. 

11 hours ago, quarks said:

I....think I'm liking Faile in the show. Send help.

She at least is a capable fighter on the show and not all bloviation all the time like the books. The showrunner strikes me as a savvy guy. He has to know Faile was considered generally annoying.

[SueB]

I agree this Faile is better.  PLEASE skip all the jealousy crap!