Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[DoctorAtomic]

I meant what book because none of this is ringing a bell. 

[Avaleigh]

Oh, book 4 The Shadow Rising. 

[Danny Franks]

13 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Faile and Perrin are both being annoying. I don't like the way she manipulated Loial and I don't like Perrin not just being straightforward with her. Not especially looking forward to those chapters. Will be really pissed if Loial is killed because of one of those two. 

Faile and Perrin being annoying? Get used to that. They embody so much of what I consider to be an unhealthy relationship that I could never enjoy them at all.

The ongoing joke of each of the three boys knowing nothing about women gets tired, but I do think the answer as to which knows the least is definitely Perrin. I'm a little worried about how this will be adapted for the show, after the trauma they gave Perrin when he accidentally killed his wife. It could work better or it could be awful and tasteless.

[Black Knight]

The Faile of the TV show is definitely not going to be the Faile of the books. The showrunner's already indicated as much with his promise she'll be awesome on the show.

And I'm sure the "knows nothing" of the books is also in the dustbin, particularly since they aged the characters for the show. It was at best a mildly funny joke to begin with, and certainly lost all its charm well before the 387th repetition, but at least for the inexperienced teenagers they were in the first book, it made sense. As they gained experience, it just got stupid.

[DoctorAtomic]

Plus the ladies loved Mat. Even the Aiel. 

[quarks]

Perrin/Faile had one scene that I enjoyed in book four. 

And that was about it.

Fortunately for my sake, since I was hardly the only reader to have, shall we say, issues with Perrin/Faile, I think that relationship will be massively changed for the show.

[Avaleigh]

Whoa, the Tinkers are actually OG Aiel?!?

[DearEvette]

Yup.  The bigger OG group followed the 'Way of the Leaf'

But yeah, the modern Aiel broke off and were like "naw son, we gon'  put some teeth of that leaf!"

[DoctorAtomic]

Surprise! 
The Aiel are probably one of the more truly original peoples in the entire genre. I like how they say, "I see you" instead of "Hello". 

I think it's funny that they could probably take over the entire continent in about 2 weeks. 

[Danny Franks]

I love how fully developed and thought out the Aiel are. They aren't just 'noble savages' or analogues of any single real world group. They have history and culture and their own idioms, their own (odd) sense of humour. Even as Jordan writes them, you get the sense that we're only scraping the surface of the thinking he put into creating them.

Some of the best scenes in the entire series revolve around the Aiel, and those two chapters where Rand learns their history are honestly the best things Robert Jordan ever wrote. Just seeing how they evolved, seeing the broken world through their eyes, seeing what desperation drove them to become, it's so affecting and moving.

[DoctorAtomic]

What? The Aiel were *hilarious*. Maidens' Kiss? Come on.

Makes me wonder if the same author wrote them though sometimes in contrast to laundry and spankings. 

[Humbugged]

So Sandy McDade is back in Season 2 , so bets on Maighan being Sheraine/Mylen and it makes sense if PTB do not want her mixed up with Sheriam (the Owyn/Owen name change comes to mind)

[Avaleigh]

My DH and I are reading the series together, but he's a slow reader so I held off on reading for awhile so that he could catch up. I'm a little over 80% finished on book 4. 

Love the development of Elaida's hostile takeover. It was obvious that something was up with her, but I wasn't expecting her to become a usurper. One thing I keep wondering about the Black Ajah, how do we know that among the 13 who left--how do we know they all left willingly?

Siuan and Leane being stilled was chilling. I think I physically cringed when Min took a minute to recognize them because stilling changed their appearance. (I wonder how they'll do this on the show?) I felt bad too that she lost her warder.

Mat still has issues with women. I can't tell if Jordan is trying to make it humorous or if Mat just has misogynistic tendencies. 

I get why Rand is suspicious with Moiraine. He needs to keep his cards close to the vest. Mat's distrust of the Aes Sedai is a little more OTT. They saved his life, healed him, now he has a freaky (but kind of awesome if used wisely) power where he only wins at gambling, but he still thinks they're the worst thing ever? 

I really like Aviendha. Min, Aviendha and Elayne are probably my favorite characters. Faile is...not my favorite. Annoying AF if I'm being honest. I hope she improves. 

I just finished the part where Cold Rocks hold is attacked. The Aiel are the best bit of world building. I admit though I'm a little confused about the difference between the splinter groups. I wish I could read a separate thing where it's broken down for me. I think it's partially because there are so many new words to learn.

Egwene being forced to wear her hair in two braids was a hilarious attitude adjuster. Lol, these people have an interesting sense of humor. 

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

They saved his life, healed him, now he has a freaky (but kind of awesome if used wisely) power where he only wins at gambling, but he still thinks they're the worst thing ever? 

He's also thinking his life wasn't too bad in his cool village until they showed up too. It's not rational, but I don't think it's coming out of nowhere. 

[Avaleigh]

16 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

He's also thinking his life wasn't too bad in his cool village until they showed up too. It's not rational, but I don't think it's coming out of nowhere. 

I think out of all of them Nynaeve misses the village the most. I think they all love Emond's Field more now that they've been parted from it. IIRC Mat was the one who was most interested in seeing a big city and doing some sight seeing. Even after he thinks he has this opportunity where he might go home IIRC he delays and hesitates because he feels like even if he took over the farm of a Cauthon or  whoever that it might still feel like a come down. 

It's awhile since I read the first book but wasn't Mat being super poor a show invention?

This reminds me of one other Mat related thing. He's now so skilled with a staff that even one of the Aiel comments on it to him. Doesn't it feel like this wasn't the original plan for the character? I don't remember this coming up in the first or second book. It's almost like the author belatedly decided that he needed Mat to be good at something so that he doesn't feel like dead weight. Everyone from the core Emond's Field group is special in some way. Now, Mat has military strategy courtesy of the memories of others and is so skilled with his staff that he can easily take on both of Elayne's brothers at the same time.

[DoctorAtomic]

Granted it's been a while for me. Sure, going to a big city is fun. But being on the run and hunted by Trollocs is something else. They're also way young in the books too. Mat being a bitch isn't unreasonable. 

If you're in book 4, there's a reason why the boys are all special. It is the end of the world with an apocalyptic battle allegedly coming up. So you'd have to think how that might play out. There's plenty of Dragon prophecies, but not too much on how to actually execute on the ground so to speak. 

[Danny Franks]

On 2/10/2023 at 12:21 AM, Avaleigh said:

I think out of all of them Nynaeve misses the village the most. I think they all love Emond's Field more now that they've been parted from it. IIRC Mat was the one who was most interested in seeing a big city and doing some sight seeing. Even after he thinks he has this opportunity where he might go home IIRC he delays and hesitates because he feels like even if he took over the farm of a Cauthon or  whoever that it might still feel like a come down. 

Nynaeve is the conservative, hometown curmudgeon who hates new cultures... and spends almost the entire series visiting new cities  with her friend who just loves experiencing new cultures.

On 2/10/2023 at 12:21 AM, Avaleigh said:

This reminds me of one other Mat related thing. He's now so skilled with a staff that even one of the Aiel comments on it to him. Doesn't it feel like this wasn't the original plan for the character? I don't remember this coming up in the first or second book. It's almost like the author belatedly decided that he needed Mat to be good at something so that he doesn't feel like dead weight. Everyone from the core Emond's Field group is special in some way. Now, Mat has military strategy courtesy of the memories of others and is so skilled with his staff that he can easily take on both of Elayne's brothers at the same time.

It's hard to say what the original plans for Mat were. I suspect that Jordan originally only envisioned him as the spanner in the works, to give more jeopardy to Rand's journey. That was when he wasn't sure if he'd even get a second book.

I think the weapon Mat carried in book one was his longbow, before he got the dagger. I don't recall any mention of him using a quarterstaff.

[DoctorAtomic]

iirc, Mat gets the Ashandarei staff with the blade on the end after he goes into the Tower of Ghenji, the Snakes and Foxes world, you know what I mean.

I don't think Jordan 'suddenly' needed something for Mat to do. He's basically Odin. It's kind of on the nose when Rand finds him hanging from the tree. That's where he gains the knowledge of the battles and everything. Mat mentioned the 'holes in his memory' several times before that. He's already been told he has to give up 'half the light of the world' so it's not hard to know what's coming there. The staff has ravens on it even. 

Don't forget, all three of the boys are taveren, so the world is going to bend to their will; Rand most of all. Although, I think Rand would probably say not enough, given the enormous bitchfest when he tries to do anything about anything. I'm surprised he only rained lightening down the one time. 

Moiraine also said a bunch of times that mega channelers would be spun out at the end of the world. That's why Ny and them are basically Foresaken class and they're finding tons of guys who can channel. 

19 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Nynaeve is the conservative, hometown curmudgeon who hates new cultures... and spends almost the entire series visiting new cities  with her friend who just loves experiencing new cultures.

This show better show them in the circus!

[Avaleigh]

I finally finished the fourth and am onto the fifth book. I'm very curious how the show is going to show somebody being stilled. It sounds horrifying and I'm not sure how they're going to communicate how agonizing it must feel to be cut off from the One Power. Also, they aren't really doing the ageless thing on the show so I'm guessing Siuan won't look all that different. Maybe her hair could go white? Is Leane on the show btw? I can't remember but I find the change in her character to be kind of fun to read. It's like 'well, I can't do magic anymore so let me see if I can land a rich dude.'

I don't know why I'm surprised that someone from the good side got stilled but I am. I thought it would be a fate reserved for somebody like Liandrin although she honestly deserves worse.

I like that Logain is still in the story. I figured there had to be more with him since they bothered to include him on the show.

I'm curious how long Elaida will be able to hang onto the Amyrlin Seat. I keep wondering if this is going to be a Defense Against the Dark Arts position now that Siuan is out and there will be a different character as Amyrlin for each subsequent book. Elaida doesn't seem like she's going to last long. I won't be surprised if she gets stabbed in the back. 

Favorite bit so far of the new book is the meeting between a few of the Forsaken. Interesting that they weren't all invited to the meeting. You'd think they'd all be on the same evil page but apparently not. Rahvin seems like he'll be a good villain. Curious who they'll cast to play him if they haven't already.

[Avaleigh]

I'm only 14% into book five but I'm really enjoying it. My wild theory now is that Aviendha wants Rand to marry both her and Elayne and since the Aiel ladies are down with having sister wives, I'm thinking it could be a possibility. The way Aviendha asked Egwene if a wetlander woman would be open to having a sister wife...clearly she's thinking about it. The chapter before, Aviendha ended up telling Rand that she hated him. Then she had one of the women whip her for supposedly telling a lie. My guess is the lie was that she hates Rand. The only thing I can't decide is whether or not Elayne would be okay with a polygamist relationship. My guess is no, because she was raised in a totally different way. The only thing that gives me pause is why this was all brought up in the first place. Why show this part of the Aiel culture if it isn't going to come up later?

Mat is a broken record. He keeps saying he's going to leave and never does.

Moiraine hasn't had much to do lately. I'm why she was stilled on the show. What's going to happen to Siuan Sanche if they seem to have given that plot over to Moiraine? Are they going to still them both? How does Moiraine being stilles help the story progress?

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't recall Moirane being stilled on the show. Are you sure you got the right character?

 

[Humbugged]

On 5/13/2023 at 12:47 AM, Avaleigh said:

 Is Leane on the show btw? I can't remember but I find the change in her character to be kind of fun to read. It's like 'well, I can't do magic anymore so let me see if I can land a rich dude.'

 

Jennifer Cheon Garcia from Van Helsing

22 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't recall Moirane being stilled on the show. Are you sure you got the right character?

 

She is shielded not stilled

[DoctorAtomic]

That's what I thought. She's not going to be stilled on the show. 

I can't wait for you know what with her. 

I can't wait for balefire either.

[Avaleigh]

On 5/29/2023 at 3:00 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

That's what I thought. She's not going to be stilled on the show. 

I can't wait for you know what with her. 

I can't wait for balefire either.

Moiraine just explained the deal with balefire. Rand used it against these hellhounds that were trying to kill him. I don't if I'm remembering all the points, but this is what I recall:

1) It sounds like the most dangerous thing somebody can do with the One Power.

2) Moiraine emphasized that even the Forsaken are reluctant to use it.

3) Using it has some kind of butterfly effect where if you kill somebody or something with it then it's if that thing never existed. 

4) The more powerful the balefire, the more likely it's going to jack up the Pattern.

Is that pretty much the essence of it?

My eyebrows did raise when I read that even the Forsaken are hesitant to use it. I wonder why Asmodean didn't already warn him about this? It seems like Lanfear might have too, if for no other reason than self preservation. 

Thanks all for clearing up that Moiraine wasn't stilled on the show. I only watched each episode once so it isn't as fresh for me as the books are. 

[DoctorAtomic]

4 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Is that pretty much the essence of it?

I don't want to spoil, but since you already crossed that point - Balefire basically burns your thread back up the pattern, so the stronger it is the further up it goes. There will be more coming for you regarding the history of its use. 

[AnimeMania]

Here is the cover for the new release of "Book Two" of Robert Jordan’s "The Wheel of Time":

[quarks]

I would say, wow, what an improvement over the original cover, but that's such a low bar.

[DoctorAtomic]

Yeah but Mat should be there too. 

[Which Tyler]

19 hours ago, quarks said:

I would say, wow, what an improvement over the original cover, but that's such a low bar.

More "shallow trench" than "low bar"

[Avaleigh]

Still on book 5. The Forsaken are definitely intensifying the various plotlines. I really enjoyed the chapter where we get the POV of Morgase. I wasn't expecting to ever get her thoughts and I'm glad we did. Early on I think I'd wondered if she was being manipulated by a Littlefinger type, but it's actually much worse. Lord Gaebril/Rahvin using Compulsion is truly horrifying. The part where she's with Lini and she's finally remembering everything that's happened was really well done. The entire time I worried that somehow Gaebril's people would force her back into her rooms and Lini would end up getting killed. Very curious if those she exiled will believe her when she explains that she literally had no control over anything she's done or was done to her or others since Gaebril's arrival. (How much time has gone by, I wonder?) Also, will Gaebril still be able to control her now that she's escaped? Will he be able to use a gateway to bring her back? I'm worried that she isn't free of him yet.

Speaking of Compulsion--I liked the part where Liandrin got schooled in it by Moghedien in such humiliating fashion. Moghedien is horrible, but I kind of love that she let Liandrin know what a worm she is and how basic her powers are in comparison to Moghedien. She also has Liandrin's number. She tells her that she can tell that Liandrin is the type of person who needs to be told twice before she learns her lesson. I hope they get a good actress for this role because it's definitely a fun OTT role that an actor can have fun with. 

Regarding the strength of Moghedien, considering the fact that Nynaeve showed that she is stronger, I'm guessing that they're setting up that this makes Nynaeve stronger than Liandrin and she'll be the one who ends up taking care of Liandrin once and for all.

Rand and Aviendha are platonically sharing a bed, so that's interesting. I wonder what Elayne is going to make of their growing closeness if she ever learns about it. 

Mat is at the point where he's so badass with the spear that one of the Maidens is hot for him. I wouldn't have predicted this two books ago.

I'm curious how they're going to handle the dream world on the show. There's a lot of exposition that goes with it. It's an interesting concept, but I suspect that a lot of the things that make it visually awesome will be too expensive to create. 

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm curious how they're going to handle the dream world on the show. There's a lot of exposition that goes with it. It's an interesting concept, but I suspect that a lot of the things that make it visually awesome will be too expensive to create. 

I think they could just make the dreamworld 'dreamy' in post production to make it look cool enough. 

Mat & the Maidens are comedy gold. 

[Avaleigh]

The heat got turned up with Moghedien. Nynaeve got the sharp lesson that Egwene was trying to warn her about. Ironically, Moghedien might have ended up giving a boost to the other side by having Birgitte kicked out if the world of dreams. 

Best of all though? Moghedien shielding Liandrin from being able to use saidar. She's not stilled but she's blocked from ever using it unless she can find someone who is not only talented enough to undo what Moghedien did but willing. Considering that Liandrin treats everyone like shit, that's an almost impossible task. At the same time I'm inclined to think that someone (probably one of the Forsaken) is going to help her out. If it isn't one of the Forsaken, I suspect that Rand will screw this up somehow if he uses balefire to kill Moghedien. Or maybe it won't be Rand and somebody else will use balefire. Either way, I do think Liandrin will be back to make trohble.

Nynaeve's chapters are funnier than I was expecting based on previous books. Like when she gets caught using the dream world to try on different gowns. Or the way she wonders why all the guys want to eat at other tents on the nights she's in charge of cooking. Or when she gets a black eye from Cerandin. There's a lot of unexpected humor with her. 

I'm still not sure about this interlude with the circus. 

I'm curious who Siuan Sanche wants to be the Amyrlin away from the tower. The only reason I don't see it being Nynaeve is because she's still can't get a handle on channeling. It's all tied into her anger. Otoh maybe Siuan is thinking that she's grown past this. They all got wind of the strength of her power so maybe they think that's enough. She was able to deal with one of the Forsaken so when it comes down to it, Nynaeve is powerful when it counts. 

Still no update on Morgase. I'm worried about her.

[DoctorAtomic]

The story starts about the country boys going to the big city, but Nynaeve is really the fish out of water story, if the fish breathed fire and shot lightning out of its eyes. 

I never liked that she was discouraged from getting angry because she was entirely justified about 1000% of the time. 

 

[Avaleigh]

Damn, Moiraine just died a couple of chapters ago. :( I kind of had a feeling something was up because of her writing him a letter, but I was still surprised when Lan said that he couldn't feel her presence anymore. Now she's gone and bonded him to somebody else. I'm wondering if it's Nynaeve but I can't remember if she's currently west of where Rand and everyone are. That would make more sense than a new character. I wonder if this means that Nynaeve will have to join the Green Ajah when the time comes.

Back to Moiraine's death for a moment. I wonder when this will happen in the show. She's the only major star on the show so it'll be hard to lose her. I feel like this was a Gandalf or Dumbledore sort of loss for the series. She taught Rand what she knew and now I guess her purpose in the story is served. It also kind of reminded me of Sirius falling behind the veil. 

I'm curious if Moiraine could still be around in the world of dreams. Like Birgitte was all that time. Maybe Egwene, Nynaeve or Elayne could get advice from her that way. I'm also interested in reading Siuan's reaction to the news and hope we aren't cheated out of that scene.

Even more surprising than losing Moiraine was losing Lanfear. I was positive that she'd be in this for the long haul considering there are still so many books left. Maybe she'll only be around for two seasons on the show. I did get a kick out of her losing her shit when she found out about Rand and Aviendha. She really is that 'if I can't have him no one can' kind of psycho.

Min and Elayne had a talk about having to share Rand (with a third woman no less!) At least Elayne has reservations about it, but what the heck with Min? She's basically just like 'I'll take what part of Rand I can get.' With Rand it is constantly raining women. Some lady is always trying to sneak her way into his bed and then ends up getting scared off by Aviendha. What's Aviendha going to do if she finds out that Min wants Rand too? She's accepted Elayne, but I get the impression that's probably her limit. 

I'm looking forward to Rand vs. Rahvin. I'm starting to lose track of how many of the Forsaken we've met. Speaking of the Forsaken, I'm nervous now that Moiraine warned Rand about Asmodean. Does he genuinely want to help Rand because he thinks it's his best chance for survival or is he just waiting for a way to be back in with the Big Bad? 

[DoctorAtomic]

All the right questions there. I certainly was surprised when the scene happened. I genuinely liked Moiraine. So far, she basically tried to get Rand to understand the importance of the coming last battle and not as much as tried to manipulate him.

All the others would rather lose the last battle if they can't have Rand win it the way they want. There's one other you should have met already that isn't like that, but I also don't approve of her methods either. 

[Avaleigh]

Okay, new mystery. Who killed Asmodean? I don't even have a narrowed down list of suspects because all people have to do is tap into the one power to travel from point a to point b so it doesn't necessarily have to have been someone who was in Caemlyn with Rand & co at that particular moment. Right now I'm guessing that it was one of the Forsaken, but who? It sounded like someone he recognized right away so that's why I'm pretty sure it's not some random dark friend or even someone from the Black Ajah. Curious if this mystery will be solved in the next book. 

Damn, Jordan had me going because I really thought he killed Mat and Aviendha. I guess balefire comes in handy after all. 

Rahvin ended up being kind of a lame villain. His battle with Rand was good and exciting but he was such a backround player that it wasn't as much of a payoff as I'd like to think it will be on the show. I'm so glad that Morgase is alive and that she survived being controlled by one of the Forsaken. We only got a couple of chapters with her but I really liked her POV. 

So far books 4 and 5 are easily the best. I can't say that I've missed Perrin and Faile all that much to be honest. 

[Which Tyler]

 

Spoiler

  

14 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I can't say that I've missed Perrin and Faile all that much to be honest. 

Everyone shush now

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Which Tyler

[DoctorAtomic]

23 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Okay, new mystery. Who killed Asmodean?

I'm riveted to your process. I don't want to give away my impressions and affect it. 

23 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Damn, Jordan had me going because I really thought he killed Mat and Aviendha. I guess balefire comes in handy after all. 

Rand was all like, "nooopppppe. Bitch". 

I wouldn't say Rahvin was lame. He's not a top tier Foresaken, but when you think about it; he totally gaslighted the queen of the most powerful nation in the continent. Basically, fracturing the established power structure isn't a bad plan. It was working. He didn't count on Rand though. 

[Avaleigh]

47 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I wouldn't say Rahvin was lame. He's not a top tier Foresaken, but when you think about it; he totally gaslighted the queen of the most powerful nation in the continent. Basically, fracturing the established power structure isn't a bad plan. It was working. He didn't count on Rand though. 

Okay, maybe I was a little harsh with that assessment. It's more that I didn't feel like there were enough scenes with him once it's revealed that he's one of the Forsaken. When he's first introduced he's such peripheral character. We overhear stuff and get trickles of info from other characters, but it takes awhile before we get significant scenes like that crazy one where he's ordering Morgase around in front of those asshole nobles and sycophants who are apparently more than happy to ditch Morgase and support Lord Gaebril. 

I was so riveted with the Morgase story once she became a POV so maybe part of the let down for me is knowing that Morgase isn't going to be able to confront Rahvin and make him pay. For me it kind of felt like just when Jordan really cranked up the heat BAM Rahvin ceases to exist.

To be fair thoigh I guess Jordan had no choice but to wrap things up considering how many of the Forsaken still need to be taken out. I wonder if he had an idea at this point of how many books he wanted the series to be. Did it start out as him wanting it to be 5 then maybe 7 and then ballooning to 10+. I understand that at some point he knew he wouldn't be able to finish the series for health reasons, but I don't know how many he finished and how many the other writer eventually completed.

I haven't done a deep dive into this because I never know if I might unwittingly stumble upon major spoilers. I don't mind minor spoilers (like knowing which writer wrote which books) or which books are considered to be not so good in comparison to others. I've both heard and read that the books take a dip in quality at some point. I hope I'm not at that stage now because the sixth book has a pretty kick ass prologue. Definitely off to a good start. 

[quarks]

I think this is something fans can and do argue about, but for me, the major drop in quality started around book 8, with book 10 probably the low point.

In terms of the Forsaken, I'm kinda wondering just how many of them we will see on the show. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rahvin dropped entirely, or merged with another character.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

They did show the 12 figurines on the show early on representing the Foresaken. I could see a couple of them being merged because two of them that were at the Eye in the books weren't there on the show. So many are so important to drive the plot that it's hard to merge or drop any. I think maybe you could merge Semihrage and Grendael because they kind of did the same thing. You need the scene with her and Rand with you all know what. 

I think the main problem is, in the books we only get like a grand total of 50 pages on the Foresaken and they all talk so obliquely that doing that on a tv show is going to look like manufactured drama to move the plot along, which is what they basically did. There's only a few of them with major continuing impact. It's a more than fair criticism that you basically get nothing and then it's all, "It's Rahvin!" And Rand goes, 'nah bro', and blammo. 

I liked book 6, but there is one major issue I have, which I'll wait until Ava is done. This is really when the drop off started for me though and the series became more of waiting for some scenes than an actual book that was driving the narrative to the last battle. I'll say more about the switch to the second author when we get there. 

I know this is the book topic, but it's too big for Ava right now so I'll tag it-

Spoiler

I have a ton of problems with the last battle, and one of the main thing is all through the books you get like 4 sentences on "Oooh, what's Demandred doing!" And then at the end he just comes in and there all, "He's here!" But you need him there because Lan absolutely needs to wreck shop so everyone can grasp that the Foresaken are just people and they can be beaten. 

Look at that from a tv pov though. If you wrote that, they'd through it out because there's no character buildup and no payoff for him just appearing. 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[quarks]

I think the TV plot-necessary Forsaken are, in order:

Ishmael (who is already in the show, so, we're all in agreement on this one)

Lanfear

Moghedien

Asmodean

Sammael (though this one is arguable)

Semirhage 

Mesaana (although her role could probably be taken over by other characters)

Graendel (agreed that her plot role could probably be combined with Semirhage)

Demandred (could be combined with Rahvin and a fake out death sequence)

Rahvin (could be combined with Demandred, see above)

Be'lal (for that nice climatic death scene, though role could probably be taken over by other characters)

Aginor (I mean, yes, he's in the books, but I can't see anything that only he, Aginor, could do. I think he could be merged with another character)

Balthamel (I see two issues here:  (cut for book spoilers since Avaleigh isn't there yet)

Spoiler

1) How much the show really wants to/plans on delving into the the whole rival Aes Sedai plot

2) If the show is planning on having literally any other character turn out to be trans, because otherwise, having the one and only trans character on the show turn out to be not just Forsaken, but forced to be in the wrong gendered body....I mean turning him into a woman against his will in the book was clearly intended to be an evil, nonconsensual act, one that only a purely evil person would even think of doing, but I'm not at all sure how well this will play on TV.

 

This show is going to have a lot of characters, regardless, so...yeah, I can see merging at least a few of these characters. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think I'd combine Demandred with Rahvin because I think Rand needs to kill him dead and very dead with balefire. The time erasure of the balefire is critical to bring Mat back. 

I don't even remember what Mesaana did. 

Balthamel. 

Spoiler

The show is nuts if they're opening that can of worms. I get that the plot would want a Foresaken in Salidar, but they didn't really do anything, and the rebel sisters were doing a good enough job of being up their own asses that I don't think it's necessary. You could just have a higher ranking sister under Compulsion to Graendel just giving intelligence. 

I really hope the show does a better job of Aes bonding the guys against their will and all the constant bitching between the Towers. I really think the book dropped the ball here because it was clear to me that the Towers should have been the first universities as we know them. 

Aside from the obvious issues, again, tv wise, you kill the bad guys, but they just get resurrected? There's no win here unless you basically use nuclear weapons all the time. No one would green light that. I'd just excise any resurrections. Rand balefires her castle, so you could just say they all died anyway. 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[Avaleigh]

The prologue for book 6 is truly massive. It takes up 8% of the book! 

Morgase is in a tough spot right now. At least she's met Rand and didn't get the impression that he was a bad guy. That being said, I can see how the rumors are making her feel uncertain about what he might be capable of these days especially now that she knows he killed Gaebril. She was thinking she'd need to build a large army to take Gaebril out, and Rand just comes in there with a few people and makes short work of it. She also has enough common sense to know that making a deal with the Lord Commander of the Children of Light would be like making a deal with the devil. 

Ugh, I hate misunderstandings and now Gawyn thinks Rand killed his mother. I hope this is cleared up sooner rather than later. 

Mesaana is an intriguing new character. (If she was mentioned at all prior to this I don't recall.) We got some good info drops. According to her she was over three hundred years old and was considered to be middle aged for an Aes Sedai. Also, she got rejected from some sort of teaching position and that's what made her turn to the dark side? Really? What is wrong with this lady? Was there no other school in this modern world she could apply to? Was it like Snape not getting the Defense Against the Dark Arts position? Lol it made me wonder if whoever rejected her died a painful death. She also confirms how little the present day Aes Sedai know in comparison to the Aes Sedai of the past. Moghedien already confirmed this, but it's interesting to hear it from the POV of a new character. She sees the current Aes Sedai as not much more than little girls. 

What is Elayne going to do when she finds out the third woman is Aviendha? I like how she and Nynaeve are learning cool shit from Moghedien so they don't want to turn her in just yet. It's like they're juicing a piece of fruit and getting all the good and useful stuff out of it before they throw the rest away.

I'm curious if this woman who was brought back from the dead by the Dark One is Lanfear. Not sure who the guy is but that's my guess with the woman. 

Finally got an update on the Two Rivers. Perrin and Faile are running things but Faile is the one who has to hold court and listen to people's problems. She complains about it a lot, but I'm not sure what all she thinks she should be doing instead. Perrin has decided that he needs to team up with Rand again. I get him wanting to support Rand, I'm just curious who's going to be left in charge of the Two Rivers. They really kind of need him and it doesn't seem like there's a good stand in for him especially if Faile is going to take off too. I do like that the Two Rivers is growing and becoming more modern. Funny how characters like Cenn Buie are threatened by stuff like people wanting to use tiles for the roofs of their houses. 

Also met a new member of the Black Ajah. At this rate I'll be surprised to meet an Aes Sedai who isn't in the Black Ajah. 

[DoctorAtomic]

13 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

She was thinking she'd need to build a large army to take Gaebril out, and Rand just comes in there with a few people and makes short work of it. She also has enough common sense to know that making a deal with the Lord Commander of the Children of Light would be like making a deal with the devil. 

She might be the only character who actually has common sense. How many people are just all, "Oh, this guy is the Dragon? Whatever." 

13 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Also, she got rejected from some sort of teaching position and that's what made her turn to the dark side? Really?

This isn't a spoiler, but the Foresaken are the hugest snowflakes ever. One turns because Lews is better looking, another because he's short. At least Ish knows Rand is really the Dragon and enjoys just messing around. They should have made a Good Omens version with just those two. 

[quarks]

On 8/7/2023 at 11:37 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

 

I don't even remember what Mesaana did. 

 

 

Since Avaleigh isn't at that part of the books yet, spoiler tagged:

Spoiler

Mesaana turns out to be responsible for splitting the Tower and partly responsible for kidnapping Rand (she didn't implement it; just strongly suggested it) and partly responsible for making Elaida even more paranoid and partly responsible for leaving the Tower relatively vulnerable to the Seanchan. 

I looked back after that reveal and realized that she, Alvarin and Semirhage were probably more successful at sowing chaos and destruction than anyone else on the Dark Side. Though that's partly because we never really did get much detail about what Demandred was doing. 

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

7 minutes ago, quarks said:

Since Avaleigh isn't at that part of the books yet, spoiler tagged:

 

Yes, but

Spoiler

Is she really needed on the tv show? Elaida being paranoid and leading to the split and kidnapping don't really need outside agency. It might be even better story-wise that it's all her.

One of the bad plot problems of the books is Compulsion. Oh, they did this because they were under Compulsion. It's literally, "A wizard did it" and takes the onus off the characters that actually split the tower, whatever.

Elaida being arrogant enough that some *boy* is the Dragon, and that she alone can tell him what to do to win the last battle is more than enough plot. 

 

[quarks]

Fair points!

As I noted initially, I think Mesaana's role could be taken over by other characters, and you've now convinced me that her role probably should be taken over by other characters.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

They haven't actually named any Foresaken on the show; they just showed the figurines. So they're not locked in to having them on the show. I doubt they're going to waste time on 13 flashbacks to establish each's origin story. 

[Avaleigh]

I'm very curious to see how the show is going to tackle Lews being in Rand's head. Maybe they'll just have Lews almost like a ghost, standing next to Rand and saying stuff but Rand is the only one who sees him. I wonder about this because he's in Rand's head a lot at this point. I don't think a voiceover would work. Plus it'll help the audience get to know Lews better if we get to see him outside of Rand's head. 

One thing that is unclear to me--can Rand communicate with Lews or can Lews only voice his thoughts without hearing or being conscious of Rand's inner monologue? The reason I ask about this is because I wonder why the hell Rand hasn't asked Lews dozens and dozens of questions at this point. Lews is a knowledgeable guy who knows what's up with saidin possibly more than any other person. The only reason I can think that Rand wouldn't take advantage of this resource is because their connection doesn't work that way.

Bashere is a good character. Definitely a nice addition to the story. Rand needs a guy like that who will keep it real with him. Not sure what to think of Mazrim Taim but I like that he's testing these guys on the farm. I wonder what Asmodean would have made of Mazrim? I have ruled out Mazrim being one of the two Forsaken that the Dark One brought back to life because it seems like the timeline doesn't support it.