S12.E05: Fugitive of the Judoon

[Skyfall]

On 1/27/2020 at 12:14 AM, DavidJSnyder said:

You can conceivably stick incarnations between the Second and Third Doctors because we didn’t see that regeneration. So say the Time Lords made him an agent and then mindwiped him and gave him more regenerations to cover it up.  (And you ignore Clara traveling through his history.)

Not saying that is a good idea to do, but it would explain why the TARDIS is a police box in it.

I've ignored Clara for this long so...

[DanaK]

On 2/14/2020 at 1:57 PM, DanaK said:

Catching up: For overnights, the rank was 6th overall for the night. The consolidated 7-day ratings are 5.573 million viewers, with a rank of 23rd for the week

The 28-day figures are in: 6.114 million viewers

[AncientNewbie]

I did a brief rewatch this morning and one line amused me that I didn't know to look for before--in the scene where Gat kills Lee, she says something like "always the noble companion" and then "do I have to spell it out for you?" to the Judoon.  Knowing the episode twist, the lines coming together like that give a nice hint. 

That said, I do hope we see more of Lee with this Doctor, because thinking of how Martha was with John Smith, I feel for the character watching over his Doctor and want to see more. 

[WatchrTina]

I'm too late to this party to add anything constructive to this conversation. (I'm doing my pandemic-driven social distancing by binge-watching the shows that got backed-up on my DVR.)  I just want to add my voice to the cacophony of joy at the re-appearance of Captain Jack Harkness and to the general confusion over where/now this extra Doctor fits in the time line.  

I'm SO happy I was unspoiled for this episode.

[DanaK]

Looking back, I find it amusing now that people were upset that John Barrowman got just a cameo as Captain Jack in this episode after 10 (15?) years away. It turns out they were just having some fun with it given he was prominent in the subsequent special (which they tried to hide as long as possible)

Still love this episode to bits and it still remains my favorite episode of Jodie's era (so far)

Edited August 16, 2021 by DanaK

[jacehan]

This is obviously very late and I'm sure the episodes that came after this address all the speculation, but I was surprised no one commented here on the idea that the Ruth's TARDIS actually had a working chameleon circuit - it's perfectly reasonable if they've been on Earth for some time for it to turn into the police box before they buried it.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, jacehan said:

This is obviously very late and I'm sure the episodes that came after this address all the speculation, but I was surprised no one commented here on the idea that the Ruth's TARDIS actually had a working chameleon circuit - it's perfectly reasonable if they've been on Earth for some time for it to turn into the police box before they buried it.

Well, we know exactly when the chameleon circuit broke - immediately after the First Doctor abducted Ian and Barbara from Earth, way back in the first ever episode. That was long after Ruth's time, and dialogue in that first serial tells us that the chameleon circuit was working perfectly before then. The Doctor and Susan reel off a whole list of things it had previously been disguised as since they left Gallifrey together.

The bigger question is why Ruth's TARDIS was also a police box, given that it hadn't at that point got stuck in that shape, and therefore neither she nor it had any reason to be attached to that appearance. That's if it was even the same TARDIS at all.

[jacehan]

(Note: I haven't seen past this episode, so if you're bringing in info from beyond that, I can't confirm it.)

That's exactly my point, though. Ruth's TARDIS would be a police box for the same reason One's TARDIS was prior to the circuit breaking - because when you're hiding out in the UK post 1930, a police box is reasonable camouflage for it. If Ruth's chameleon circuit is functional, then it would change shape when she lands somewhere else after leaving - but we don't see that happen.

[Llywela]

57 minutes ago, jacehan said:

(Note: I haven't seen past this episode, so if you're bringing in info from beyond that, I can't confirm it.)

That's exactly my point, though. Ruth's TARDIS would be a police box for the same reason One's TARDIS was prior to the circuit breaking - because when you're hiding out in the UK post 1930, a police box is reasonable camouflage for it. If Ruth's chameleon circuit is functional, then it would change shape when she lands somewhere else after leaving - but we don't see that happen.

Well, if you haven't seen past this episode to know the backstory leading it up to it all, let me just say I'm reasonably confident they did that for the Doylist reason that it would retain a recognisable TARDIS shape for the audience and not because it makes all that much sense for any Watsonian reason in-universe. (At the time we meet Ruth, there are no functioning police boxes left in the UK and barely any just hanging around, the few that are left are mostly museum pieces, so it isn't a disguise. But there is no reason for Ruth's TARDIS not to have a functioning chameleon circuit, either)

[DoctorAtomic]

I think it was just meant to show us right away that it was the same TARDIS.

[jacehan]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

(At the time we meet Ruth, there are no functioning police boxes left in the UK and barely any just hanging around, the few that are left are mostly museum pieces, so it isn't a disguise. But there is no reason for Ruth's TARDIS not to have a functioning chameleon circuit, either)

At the time we meet Ruth - but the TARDIS has been buried for years. Even as we learn more about Ruth (having finished Series 12 - don't know if there's more in 13), we don't know how long she lived as Ruth, except that Gat says it took a long time to track down the box.

(Of course from a Doylist point of view it's meant to show it's the same TARDIS, just hashing it out from a Watsonian POV.)

[Llywela]

There is no truly satisfying or meaningful Watsonian explanation, unfortunately. The story would be stronger if there were! But it really was done just for the reccognisability factor.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Llywela

[Affogato]

On 8/11/2022 at 2:39 AM, Llywela said:

There is no truly satisfying or meaningful Watsonian explanation, unfortunately. The story would be stronger if there were! But it really was done just for the reccognisability factor.

Well if Tardis’s are responsive to their people, and they are, the Tardis could have seen herself in the doctor’s mind and changed to look like a police box. “Hi,it’s me!”

[Eulipian 5k]

FOTJ laid down three sign posts :

• Ruth calls herself "The Doctor"
• Her TARDIS was a Police Box
• She doesn't recognize the sonic screwdriver

From the actual show's history back to the 1960's:

• Hartnell chose the name Doctor
• Hartnell's TARDIS became stuck as the Police Box
• Every doctor since the Third(?) has used the Sonic

How can Ruth be before Hartnell without invoking the Bootstrap Paradox?

(

Spoiler

The Flux involved Ruth as the Doctor, but 13 was there as the Doctor also, and she's definitely post Hartnell

)