galax-arena July 23, 2014 Share July 23, 2014 (edited) You just don't get that acceptance with 2 men. Maybe not among other guys, but I feel like 2 men among teenage girls - TW's primary demo - is the equivalent of 2 women among teenage guys. Either way, it's spank bank/fetishization fodder for the opposite sex and not really true acceptance. It slightly confused me when Davis put in that scene with Malia and Kira dancing because it seemed so designed to pander to your stereotypical straight male viewer, but how many of them are watching Teen Wolf? Edited July 23, 2014 by galax-arena Link to comment
Yitzhak July 23, 2014 Share July 23, 2014 (edited) Maybe not among other guys, but I feel like 2 men among teenage girls - TW's primary demo - is the equivalent of 2 women among teenage guys. Either way, it's spank bank/fetishization fodder for the opposite sex... Yup, that's a good point to make. I'm sure the writers are very aware of the enormous amount of slash fiction written by TW fans and that their audience would have no trouble accepting a gay male relationship on the show. The real problem might be how derailing doing a popular m/m ship might be (especially Sterek). The romance stories have never been the main focus of the show. They are simply subplots to the big supernatural adventure. The most central and significant relationship on the show is not a romance at all but a friendship (Scott x Stiles). I think this is what Posey was getting at when he (controversially) expressed that Sterek fans were watching the show for the wrong reasons. Which I think Posey meant in the sense that TW doesn't revolve around any romantic ship, least of all a non-canon ship. And yes, I agree that fetishization is a driving force (if not THE driving force) behind slash. It's no coincidence that Dylan O'Brien and Tyler Hoechlin happen to be the two most desired male cast members by TW fans along with their characters being the big popular slash couple. I actually think it's great that the two actors were willing to do the infamous boat video as a fun way to um, give pleasure to their largely female/with some gay male fans. Because I felt that was clearly what the boat video was about and nothing to do with Stiles and Derek getting together in the show. Before I go on I should add that I'm a slash fan myself. I do see it as pure erotica but I mean no disrespect because a lot of slash is very well-written erotica. But if I get really invested in a gay love story on TV then (for me) it tends to be one that involves canonically queer characters. Give me David/Keith in 'Six Feet Under' over any popular slash pairing. Despite all the demands for Sterek! and More Danny! there doesn't seem to be much of a push for lesbian characters in canon at all. I'm fairly new to the TW fandom but I've not seen any hints of popular femslash pairings. Which isn't necessarily because of the demographic. Glee for example has a very large female and gay male audience and yet the pairings of Brittany/Santana (a canon pairing) and Rachel/Quinn (a non-canon pairing) had massive fan followings. It could just be that TW has just never given enough time to its female relationships. Give Lydia/Malia or Malia/Kira some decent scenes together and who knows. Malia being sexually fluid would fit her character I think and having a bisexual girlfriend might help the cause in getting an answer on how bicurious Stiles really is. Edited July 23, 2014 by Yitzhak 2 Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 23, 2014 Share July 23, 2014 fetishization is a driving force (if not THE driving force) behind slash. My concern with terms like fetishization is that, while I don't deny it's a legitimate issue sometimes, I think it's used in order to paint all slash fans and slash pairings with the same brush, thus marginalizing and dismissing them. Shippers can like a slash couple on the basis of chemistry, narrative potential, etc., the same as they do straight couples. Unfortunately, there's a double-standard in which even the most unlikely het pairing tends to be regarded with more respect than any slash pairing. 2 Link to comment
Yitzhak July 23, 2014 Share July 23, 2014 (edited) Shippers can like a slash couple on the basis of chemistry, narrative potential, etc., the same as they do straight couples. Unfortunately, there's a double-standard in which even the most unlikely het pairing tends to be regarded with more respect than any slash pairing. I think the difference is canon vs non-canon pairings more so than het vs queer pairings. In most shows I can think of with canonical queer pairings (such as Glee, Shameless, Orphan Black, etc) the queer couples are actually far more popular than the het pairings with the fans and the writers treat fans of their het/queer pairings equally. I'll also add that there have been plenty of examples of non-canon het pairings being dismissed by writers and fans alike. Someone mentioned how Harry/Hermione shippers have long been derided as delusional, even though they see chemistry and romantic potential as much as Sterek fans. Whether it's liking a slash pairing or a non-canon het pairing, it could be argued that the writers have good reason to be more dismissive of romance stories that they didn't write. It's understandable they'd be more receptive to talking about canon pairings that they created and intended fans to invest in. Edited July 23, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 23, 2014 Share July 23, 2014 I think the difference is canon vs non-canon pairings more so than het vs queer pairings. In most shows I can think of with canonical queer pairings (such as Glee, Shameless, Orphan Black, etc) the queer couples are actually far more popular than the het pairings with the fans and the writers treat fans of their het/queer pairings equally. Sorry. I was referring specifically to non-canonical pairings and should have made that clear. (When I think "slash" I automatically think of non-canonical slash pairings but that's probably old-school. Has the term slash come to include canon gay couples?) My observation over the past decade or so has been that non-canonical slash pairings are dismissed far more easily than non-canonical het pairings. Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys July 24, 2014 Share July 24, 2014 (edited) It slightly confused me when Davis put in that scene with Malia and Kira dancing because it seemed so designed to pander to your stereotypical straight male viewer, but how many of them are watching Teen Wolf? I think Teen Wolf for MTV is kind of like Arrow for the CW: predominately female, but higher male viewership than you'd expect. I'd imagine 60-40 maybe? I know quite a few guys that watch TW (and Arrow) Sorry. I was referring specifically to non-canonical pairings and should have made that clear. (When I think "slash" I automatically think of non-canonical slash pairings but that's probably old-school. Has the term slash come to include canon gay couples?) My observation over the past decade or so has been that non-canonical slash pairings are dismissed far more easily than non-canonical het pairings. Yea, now I think it's just all slash (as far as I've seen). I agree halfway with you. I think it really depends on the fandom, for sure. But people are usually more accepting of canon pairings in general and brush aside purely fandom generated ones to the side. Edited July 24, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys 1 Link to comment
caseylane July 24, 2014 Author Share July 24, 2014 Thing is, once a pairing becomes canon fanfic all but disappears. Why write about it if you can get it on screen? If the unthinkable happened and Davis decided "what the hell" and hooked up Derek and Stiles after he turned 18 the fic would plummet. You would probably get a bit of kid fic and AU's but nothing like now. Castle/Becket had a pretty strong fic community but once they got together it dropped drastically. The fans were still there, they just stopped writing fanfic. Link to comment
FurryFury July 24, 2014 Share July 24, 2014 Unfortunately, there's a double-standard in which even the most unlikely het pairing tends to be regarded with more respect than any slash pairing. I think a non-canon het pairing between two canonically gay characters would be regarded very derisively, so why should a non-canon slash pairing between two characters only shown to be attracted to the opposite gender be received any better? Personally, I don't like it when characters are made decidedly OOC to fit the fans' fantasy, whether it's changing their sexuality or religious views or anything else about them. So, for me, it's not het vs slash. God knows, there are fandoms with an obvious "Het is ew" mentality. For me, it's OOC vs in-character. And yes, a non-canon het couple can be very OOC for the characters involved (hell, some canonic badly-written pairings are), and I don't find them any better than non-canon slash. Despite all the demands for Sterek! and More Danny! there doesn't seem to be much of a push for lesbian characters in canon at all. I'm fairly new to the TW fandom but I've not seen any hints of popular femslash pairings. That's because in its heart, Teen Wolf is a very male-centered show. Male characters outnumber female by a large margin, and, I think, not every episode even passes Bechdel's test. The only notable female/female relationships for the first three seasons were Alison/Lydia, and, with a stretch, Alison/Kate in season 1 (I don't think Alison/Victoria was explored at all, so I don't count it). Maybe there was something else, I'm not the most attentive viewers when it comes to this show (I consider myself more of a casual viewer). Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 24, 2014 Share July 24, 2014 I think a non-canon het pairing between two canonically gay characters would be regarded very derisively, so why should a non-canon slash pairing between two characters only shown to be attracted to the opposite gender be received any better? Personally, I don't like it when characters are made decidedly OOC to fit the fans' fantasy, whether it's changing their sexuality or religious views or anything else about them. I suppose a non-canon het pairing between canonically gay characters would be regarded derisively; frankly, in more than a decade in various fandoms I've never come across that, so I can't really speak to it. I'm sure there would be some people who'd see it as trying to force non-het characters into the heteronormative view because as with other things, there can be a concern with trying to erase or change the minority to make it more acceptable to the majority. But there would probably also be people who would accept the non-canon het pairing, as well, because people are drawn to different pairings for all kinds of reasons. I don't like OOC either, but I don't hold the opinion that a character is automatically OOC in a non-canon slash pairing just because they've been shown only with one gender on the show. I realize a lot of people do, because many people assume that all characters are one-hundred-percent straight unless the show explicitly states otherwise, but there's a whole spectrum regarding sexuality. Fans of Sterek often consider Stiles to be canonically bi-sexual (or at least potentially so, based on JD's own words), and are willing to consider the possibility that Derek is, also, since there's been nothing to rule it out. But as with anything else, MMV. 1 Link to comment
Bruinsfan July 24, 2014 Share July 24, 2014 The thing is, I think there was plenty of room for a possibly bisexual interpretation of Derek's character in Season 1 and very early Season 2 when he was forever cornering Jackson in the locker room/showers or leading him off into the woods at night. That's changed over time as more has been revealed about his love life and his stalking half-dressed teenage boys has been dialed down, but I can certainly see why people thought there was fertile ground for putting him in slash pairings early on. Link to comment
Yitzhak July 24, 2014 Share July 24, 2014 (edited) That's changed over time as more has been revealed about his love life and his stalking half-dressed teenage boys has been dialed down... Well Derek did manage to sneak into the boys locker room again in the latest ep to manhandle Liam. I agree that the most convincing way to portray Derek as in-character and bisexual is to put a sexual spin on his creeping on teenagers (which is well established in canon - like, is there a teenage boy left on the show who Derek hasn't crept up on and slammed into a wall?). With that interpretation I'd say it makes more sense to pair Derek up with fellow werewolves like Scott, Jackson or Issac (Derek has done his stalker routine with Stiles too but not with the same intensity). Not that it appeals to me. Since the S2 story with Derek grooming vulnerable teenagers into consenting to the bite, it just feels very icky to imagine Derek in a sexual relationship with any of the teenage characters. Even when Derek is acting as a protector to the kids more so than a self-interested aggressor, Derek still goes about it in a creepy Edward Cullen fashion. All this being said, with all these objections to Malia sneaking into Stiles' bedroom, I don't know if fans would accept canon!Sterek if it came about through Derek being stalkerish (even though Derek IS stalkerish). And with the disgust towards Kate molesting an underage Derek, it feels hypocritical that fans would want Derek paired with a teenager with a similar age difference. I've heard that a lot of Sterek fanfic authors will only write future fic where Stiles is legal, but that just goes to show that Sterek needs to be far removed from the current canon story for it to work. I'm pretty sure Jeff has said that he'll be stretching the timeline out so that Scott and Stiles don't graduate till the very end of the show. So I'm really not up for Derek dating a high school kid. And personally I'm not up for Parrish dating one either. That's because in its heart, Teen Wolf is a very male-centered show. Yes, seeing as there is far greater focus on naked male torsos than on scantily clad females it makes perfect sense that there is a bigger fandom for m/m homoerotica. It probably doesn't come as a surprise to Jeff that there is a big slash fandom surrounding TW, maybe just that the slash fandom is so fixated on one pairing. It feels like Jeff played up Scott/Issac in S3 in an effort to mix things up. Maybe that's also what the Kira/Malia femslash scene was about. Edited July 24, 2014 by Yitzhak 2 Link to comment
lion10 July 24, 2014 Share July 24, 2014 It slightly confused me when Davis put in that scene with Malia and Kira dancing because it seemed so designed to pander to your stereotypical straight male viewer, but how many of them are watching Teen Wolf? I was surprised by that scene too. It makes sense that Malia has a greater chance of being bi but that dance scene still threw me for a loop because it was really unlike Teen Wolf to throw femslash into the mix. This is kind of off topic but this discussion brought an earlier question I had to mind. Who was the original target demographic for Teen Wolf? Guys or girls? Based on what I see online when it comes to fanfiction, tumblr posts, and fan art, Teen Wolf has a predominant female fan base and MTV seems to be a fairly skewing girl channel. But then the main character is a guy and it has a very heavy male cast which is unusual for both general and MTV shows skewing toward women. But Teen Wolf was bringing the slash from pretty much the first episode so I don't know. Thoughts? Link to comment
Insomnia July 24, 2014 Share July 24, 2014 Well, I got into an argument, just recently actually with a male friend (we're both in the twilight of our 30's) and he was pretty much of the belief that there is only one Teen Wolf, and that was the cheesy 80's movie. End of. But the cheesy 80's movie nostalgia is why I tuned in, in the first place. But I'm really a whore for anything supernaturaly or horrory, really so it wasn't hard to get me to check it out. But then again I stay away from fandoms, any fandom, because they are just scary. Link to comment
FurryFury July 25, 2014 Share July 25, 2014 I suspect there are enough guys watching the show, it's just internet fandoms for most TV shows are usually comprised of females, and in this case, there's a popular slash couple (even if completely fanon,it doesn't seem to matter to many slash fans), so their fandom is especially vocal. Initially, it was probably targeted at both demos, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn the majority of the show's writers are male. Also, male demo does sometimes seem to be more important for some writers because M18-34 is the most sought-after category for advertisers, AFAIK. At least, with both Arrow and Teen Wolf, it seems there are big vocal female fandoms while the shows themselves feel more like male-oriented (especially Arrow, but I do sometime feel the same about Teen Wolf). Link to comment
wayne67 August 2, 2014 Share August 2, 2014 I can't say I ship anyone for very long on this show because frankly all the relationships (of the dating kind) have been super weird or glossed over all the creepy parts. I did like the Scott/Kira courtship last mini season but now I kind of hate them both for being super weird for no discernible reason in show. Did they have really bad sex ? is Scott simply awkward after his last girlfriend died? has the novelty worn off their relationship? is the infamous wolf/fox dynamic coming into play ? I do not know and I doubt it'll ever be explored. While I enjoyed the early Teen Wolf Stiles/ Derek chemistry and miss them interacting. I was never really invested in them hooking up. The only openly gay characters on this show seem to be mostly gay in name rather than in action. Danny and gay twin made out once in a hotel and were interrupted by supernatural shenanigans and that's about all I remember in regards to gayness on show. I think there was also a implied sexy scene in the shower while the gay twin was possessed by a fly or something. It's not been particularly memorable. The hetero pairings haven't been particularly bringing it with on screen chemistry. Derek and Jennifer were just creepy with the blood sex. Derek and Kate were seriously creepy with the underage implications Allison and Isaac were weird with the fact she participated in stabbing/torturing him once and the kinky bondage sex near the end. Lydia and Jackson were nonsensical Lydia and psycho twin were just unsettling Lydia and string of randoms was just odd. P.s Thanks for telling me about the infamous boat video. I'd never seen it before today. I can see how the Sterek shippers feel like they've been queer baited a little though. It seems kind of manipulative to pander to a certain demographic by hinting that something will happen and not delivering. I repeat I don't want Derek and Stiles to hook up on screen. Teen wolf suck at relationships and sort of at character development in general. However I would like Derek and Stiles to get more scenes together because even when it's Young Miguel and Stiles they are a hilarious pair. I miss the humor, if Stiles can't have amusing dialogue with Danny because he's wandered off somewhere at least let him be witty with Derek and his issues. 1 Link to comment
Yitzhak August 4, 2014 Share August 4, 2014 (edited) Thanks for telling me about the infamous boat video. I'd never seen it before today. I can see how the Sterek shippers feel like they've been queer baited a little though. It seems kind of manipulative to pander to a certain demographic by hinting that something will happen and not delivering. Granted I wasn't around when the boat video was released, so I didn't see how fandom reacted to it. But IMO the boat video was clearly meant in jest. I can't believe it was taken any other way. I think it was a fun way to acknowledge the Sterek ship's popularity in a context that was removed from the show and the canon characters. It was fandom that invented the ship and while the creators may have occasionally winked at fans as if to say "You want Stiles/Derek together? LOL, that's so funny. Well, who knows?! Giggle, giggle..." I've still not seen anything that suggests serious baiting. Jeff Davis only seems to speak about the Sterek ship when other people thrust it at him and in most interviews I've seen Jeff does his best to deflect or change the subject. I feel like the supposed "hinting" is just shippers clutching at straws and wanting to believe that Sterek could become canon. Edited August 5, 2014 by Yitzhak 2 Link to comment
ahisma August 5, 2014 Share August 5, 2014 So many friendships and relationships in Weaponized! Really nice work on Scott/Kira, Stiles/Malia, Stiles&Scott, and all the parents and kids. (I love Melissa for immediately saying, "Scott and Stiles are at the school!" She is so Stiles' second mom.) Natalie Martin&Bobby Finstock—I want all the backstory! I love both of them so much. Derek/Braeden: Out of all the bad romantic luck he's had so far, I think Derek actually feels safe being attracted to Braeden. She knows what she's getting into with the supernatural and can take care of herself. And he knows exactly where she's coming from, no hidden agendas like Kate and Jennifer. She makes no bones about being a mercenary and she has no particular problem with werewolves. Plus, she saved Isaac, saved Derek and Peter, and now Derek has saved her. They did not play up any feelings he might have regarding the previous saves onscreen, but with him carrying her to the hospital we are finally seeing the connection forming, at least on his side. Added to their previous smoldering chemistry moment, I like the ship. 2 Link to comment
Bruinsfan August 5, 2014 Share August 5, 2014 I can definitely see how Braeden being upfront about her motives rather than sugar-coating them could be refreshing to Derek. And they have something in common (aside from both being scorchingly hot): they've both survived all kinds of brutal supernatural violence that by rights should have killed them. 2 Link to comment
ElleryAnne August 5, 2014 Share August 5, 2014 I feel like the supposed "hinting" is just shippers clutching at straws and wanting to believe that Sterek could become canon. I disagree. I was around the fandom at the time, and JD's own words contributed to that hinting. Shippers get labeled as if they're deluded, but they're not always. I love Melissa for immediately saying, "Scott and Stiles are at the school!" She is so Stiles' second mom. What I love about that is that it's also actually realistic. Parents whose kids grow up together like that do tend to refer to them that way. Scott and Stiles have grown up practically as a single unit. My kids are young and I already fall into that habit with my older one and his best friend. Natalie Martin&Bobby Finstock—I want all the backstory! I love both of them so much. This. How is it that a show that's so bad at romantic subplots can be so good at creating those multiple other relationships that exist in life? I'm more interested in how Natalie knew about Coach's history and their possible friendship than I am in Scott/Kira, Stalia or Derek/Braeden. 1 Link to comment
bettername2come August 5, 2014 Share August 5, 2014 Oh my gosh, Natalie and Coach's friendship makes it so much more understandable why he was insisting all the guys on the team look for Lydia in season 2 when she went missing. And if they're friends from AA or something, never having heard of this friendship makes complete sense because of confidentiality. 2 Link to comment
Yitzhak August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 (edited) I disagree. I was around the fandom at the time, and JD's own words contributed to that hinting. Shippers get labeled as if they're deluded, but they're not always. I wouldn't say deluded, but it feels like there's a willfulness in the Sterek fandom to interpret some of Jeff's vague comments only in the way that suits the shipping purpose. I may be a latecomer, but when I've googled 'Jeff Davis' and 'Sterek' together the vast majority of results that I've found are interviews where Jeff sidesteps Sterek questions, doesn't give any hints of canon possibilities and often changes the subject to his canon ships, like Stiles/Lydia (and some of these interviews are quite old). If there are existing quotes from Jeff that seriously hint at canon!Sterek then shippers would still have to weigh them against the interviews I've seen where Jeff is very dismissive of Sterek. Though to be fair, Jeff seems to avoid telling fans things that will disappoint them, i.e. - how at comic con Jeff avoided admitting and explaining why Danny was dropped from the show with a crowd-pleasing promise that he will bring Danny back. I was pleased on Wolf Watch that Jeff confirmed his favorite 'ship' was the Scott/Stiles bromance. I suspected as much since it's by far the most consistent relationship on the show, but it's good to be assured that their friendship is never going to be dropped from the show. I do sympathize with Sterek fans who don't even get to enjoy Stiles & Derek having scenes together very often like they did in S1 and S2. While I don't agree with a Sterek romance, I feel they've lost some humor by under-using that dynamic. The Miguel callback in 4x2 was fun and I'd like to see more of that. It seems like there's a lot of unhappy Stiles/Lydia shippers at the moment. I'm not sure why but Stydia fans seem far more angry over Stiles being with Malia than they were over Lydia being with Aiden or Jackson. I'm not a Stalia hater but I still favor Stydia of the two Stiles romantic pairings, if only because I prefer ships with more onscreen development. It's hard to feel much for Stiles and Malia's break up when we've not seen a whole lot of them being together first. The writers are still making a point of Stiles/Lydia having a close friendship so I don't think they are dropping the romantic potential. I do think they'll go there in the end. I guess it just depends how much waiting and 'slow burn' Stydia fans can take. Edited August 7, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
ElleryAnne August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 (edited) I wouldn't say deluded, but it feels like there's a willfulness in the Sterek fandom to interpret some of Jeff's vague comments only in the way that suits the shipping purpose. I suppose in retrospect it looks that way. A year or so ago, JD's twitter comment, gay bar comment, etc., along with the "ship" video, were definitely meant to give Sterek shippers a feeling of hope, and while hindsight has proven that JD was just queerbaiting them (and yes, when you put Sterek on a ship, have them act kinda flirty with each other and say "vote for us", you're queerbaiting), at the time they believed he might be legit. When you tell fans that you might consider something if enough fans want it, it sounds...maybe not like a promise, but not like a dismissal. Naive, maybe, on their part to believe him. But not deluded. Not willful. YMMV, of course. And of course a small subset of the fans (just like any other group) may have gotten carried away, but the majority of Sterek fans wouldn't have bothered believing it could become canon if it weren't for JD and co. fueling those flames. It seems like there's a lot of unhappy Stiles/Lydia shippers at the moment. I'm not sure why but Stydia fans seem far more angry over Stiles being with Malia than they were over Lydia being with Aiden or Jackson. Well, Jackson was there from the start, so he's not like a newcomer that has to earn a place in the gang. His story unfolded concurrent with theirs. And I doubt Aiden was ever seen as a serious threat - or alternative - to Stydia, because JD never devoted much time to the twins in general. Although I did know quite a few fans who hated Lydia with Aiden simply because they felt that it was OOC that Lydia would still have anything to do with him after some of the things he did. I never saw that as a problem, because I think Lydia's history with Jackson and her short-term sleep-with-anybody phase indicated she could be drawn to bad guys who may or may not be redeemable, but I definitely understand how others felt that Lydia's character took a shot on that one. Jackson at his worst wasn't nearly as bad as Aiden. But JD has made it clear that Malia's a fav of his, and he put Stalia out there as a special thing like he expected all of the fans to embrace it. But some fans would rather decide for themselves whether they like a character or relationship, and don't like just being told by the showrunner that his favorite character is wonderful or that her relationship with his other favorite character is good or interesting or romantic or funny. He's supposed to show, not tell, and let the fans decide for themselves. But he did the opposite. Had he introduced Malia as a character first, and let her place in the Scooby gang grow slowly over a season or two before putting her in a romance, Stalia would probably make more sense and be more acceptable to a larger percentage of viewers. I can see how fans of Stydia would look at Stalia and be annoyed that three seasons of organic slow development of a relationship is relegated to a second tier behind a relationship that was introduced under dubious circumstances and that still has undertones that some would find unpleasant. And some fans who thought Stydia was endgame are probably annoyed that Stalia might have changed that. But again, I don't think the majority are coming from that twelve-year-old Stilesandlydia5evaomg! place, but rather from a place of frustration at what seems like a cheap substitution of a badly-written insta-romance for a well-written slow-build. Eh, JD just can't write romance well, IMO. But he does write other relationships quite well. And I think he missed the ball on something that would've done a lot to help Malia's character development, and that's showing her with her dad throughout this season. Parent-child relationships on this show are one of its strengths, and I think a great story line would've been to see Malia re-bonding with her dad all this time only to learn about Peter. It's unfortunate that we haven't gotten any scenes like that, because it would've gone far to make Malia more multi-dimensional. (Actually, I think JD did SH a disservice by being so enamoured of Malia and Stalia, because if he hadn't been so determined to have his girl version of Derek, he probably would've just naturally written her into some parent-kid scenes, and those are often the scenes he writes best and which make the characters sympathetic and believable.) We could've done without Garrett and Violet and kept Mr. Tate around instead, and the season would be at least 50% better. Edited August 7, 2014 by ElleryAnne 2 Link to comment
Yitzhak August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 (edited) when you put Sterek on a ship, have them act kinda flirty with each other and say "vote for us", you're queerbaiting They were clearly appealing to a popular slash fandom for votes, but...is that so terrible? I guess it depends on the expectations. The video was done as Tyler and Dylan, not as Derek and Stiles. And was JD even involved in the ship vid? It was TV Guide who put the vid together, not MTV. I just took it as the two actors giggling over the fact that fans think they make a hot couple. Tyler & Dylan doing that video seemed to be the 'reward' for the fans votes, not any promise of Sterek in canon (the actors can't decide what happens in canon anyway). *shrugs* The ship vid just seemed like a joke to me and an enjoyable one too. It reminded me of Lord of the Rings fandom when the actors would regularly flirt and acknowledge the huge slash following they had. The acknowledgement was nice itself. In my experience slash couples rarely become canon queer couples and not due to homophobia but due to the fact that if the writers want a gay relationship on their show then they'll do it with characters who are intended to be queer to begin with. As for Stiles/Lydia, I just don't believe that Malia is as bigger threat as they think or that Malia/Stalia is favored as much as you suggest. I don't think Jeff has hyped Malia up any more so than say, Liam or any other new character he's eager for fans to latch onto. I still feel like Scott/Kira have had way more development in S4 while Stiles/Malia's relationship has mostly taken place off-screen. Also I don't feel like the Stiles/Lydia ship has been dropped. If Lydia can love more than one boy then Stiles can love more than one girl. As Dylan has said, Stiles being with Malia doesn't mean he's stopped loving Lydia, just that he's accepted it's not reciprocated (at the moment). The biggest problem for Stydia is not Malia (who is the big target of shipper hatred) but Lydia who has yet to show that she cares for Stiles as more than a friend. Personally I still think Stiles/Lydia will be endgame but it'll be better coming after Stiles has relationship experience, rather than it being a matter of Stiles pining away until Lydia gives in. Edited August 7, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
ElleryAnne August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 They were clearly appealing to a popular slash fandom for votes, but...is that so terrible? Terrible? Like you said, it depends on expectations, and on what someone wants in general. At its core, it's using a group of people for your own gain, while hinting that you might care about their interests when you really have no intention of giving them anything. Basically, it's politics. It's like telling a marginalized or minority group of people that you hear them, and you hint that you support them in some way, and then after you get their votes you hope they go away, because ultimately you didn't plan to give them anything and you don't want to offend the majority. I find it offensive, but I know some folks could care less if he does things like that. was JD even involved in the ship vid? It was TV Guide who put the vid together, not MTV. It's his show, and his actors. I don't doubt he had input or at least some level of approval. And if it stood alone, it would probably have been taken more lightly. But coupled with a couple of other comments from Jeff, they added up. Eh, it's not something people are going to agree on. Differing opinions are great - they make for good discussion. I guess I just wish that the ones who believed Jeff back then don't have to be labeled in some way that implies they were deluded or stupid or something. (I'm not saying you're calling them stupid, btw, so please don't think that - it's just that it's an argument that goes on across the internet and has for years and the belittling gets old.) They thought there was a chance because he led them to think it. They were fine just letting the ship reside in canon like any other. But he played with them. And a year or so later, it's obvious that he didn't mean it. But at the time, there were fans who trusted him - not to make Sterek canon especially, but to at least take them seriously. Instead, he baited them and then barely even included scenes of them together. I don't think Jeff has hyped Malia up any more so than say, Liam or any other new character he's eager for fans to latch onto. IDK. It seems like I was hearing a lot more about her than about Liam or any of the other newbies in the pre-season stuff. Maybe I just check the wrong sites, but before the season started I was looking for info on what the three new guys were going to be like, and all I remember is that one was going to be Scott's beta and one was going to be the token gay guy and nothing on the third guy. But I remember being told how great Malia was and how excited for her JD was, and how he hoped the fans would love her. Frankly, as the season is unfolding, I'm surprised it wasn't Ryan K/Deputy Parrish that was getting hyped a bit more, because he's getting some decent airtime for a supporting character. Something I approve of, since I liked him in the few scenes he had last season. But in general, I tend to like characters that are introduced slowly instead of ones that are pushed to the fore. I still feel like Scott/Kira have had way more development in S4 while Stiles/Malia's relationship has mostly taken place off-screen. I don't feel like Scott/Kira have had much development at all in S4. They seem to alternate between awkward and horny, which is to be expected with 17 year olds. They're bland. But I don't know that I expect much more than that with their relationship. I like them, but I could care less whether they stay together or break up. Funny, but even though Scott's not that much different with Kira than he was with Allison at the beginning, I always felt more invested in Scott/Allison. It had the benefit of being Scott's first love, and we were getting to know Scott as he was falling in love for the first time, and Allison was a great interesting character on her own in other ways. I like Kira, but it's as if they don't know quite what to do with her, so sometimes they try to make her Allison 2.0 and other times they just forget about her. And then sometimes they try to do something like put her on the lacrosse team, but it all feels so random. I don't see a lot of Stalia development either - and what there is of it has been haphazard, with consent issues that we're not supposed to see or be bothered by, and Stiles apologizing for her by saying she's making progress as if it's funny to see a guy apologizing for his girlfriend's behavior. But I think they want us to be invested in Stalia as a relationship - possibly even more than they want us to be invested in Scott/Kira - and it's hard for some fans to be invested in Stalia when we haven't had a chance to become invested in Malia herself. And that's the heart of the problem. JD threw Stalia out there starting with Eichen House, but he never gave us a chance to know Malia first. And Stiles is a major and popular character, so anyone he has a significant relationship with is someone we want to know and care about. Whether or not Lydia (or Derek, or anyone else) would reciprocate his feelings right now is secondary to whether we have grown to know and care about the object of his affections, and have seen the progression of a relationship, even if it's currently platonic. The foundation of a relationship we're supposed to root for is there with Stydia, whether or not it's endgame at this point. The foundation of Stalia, not so much right now. 2 Link to comment
Yitzhak August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 (edited) At its core, it's using a group of people for your own gain, while hinting that you might care about their interests when you really have no intention of giving them anything. Well, they gave shippers a video of Tyler/Dylan snuggling together on a boat. It felt like that was the deal and I took it as them offering fan-service up front. But this goes back to the matter of expectations and how much those fans wanted out of the TW writers and actors (there probably were different levels of expectation within Sterek fandom like you say). As a fan myself, I'd say that fans are capable of using in return. Fanfic writers use the characters and world Jeff created without his permission and he has no control over that, but he does get to decide what actually goes into the show or not. Dylan and Hoechlin have no control over fans using their characters & physical appearances for stories and artwork (some of which are wildly pornographic) but they shouldn't be pressured into saying "I ship Sterek!" at conventions so that their approval can be used to back up in ship wars and campaigns. I think that kind of thing is fans overstepping. That said, TW seems to offer a lot of opportunities for fans to break the fourth wall - fanfic competitions, the fanart gallery, the 'Alphas of the Week' on Wolf Watch, even fans winning roles on the show, etc. Maybe that raises expectations for how much the fans feel the creators will go to service them? From what I've seen Sterek fans are not a minority group in the fandom (far from it) and fans often employ 'majority rules' arguments for their ship to win over any other ship. I'm not saying you're calling them stupid, btw, so please don't think that No, that's fine. Like you say, I think it's an interesting debate. I'm trying to be objective, not offensive. Edited August 7, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 I suppose in retrospect it looks that way. A year or so ago, JD's twitter comment, gay bar comment, etc., along with the "ship" video, were definitely meant to give Sterek shippers a feeling of hope, and while hindsight has proven that JD was just queerbaiting them (and yes, when you put Sterek on a ship, have them act kinda flirty with each other and say "vote for us", you're queerbaiting), at the time they believed he might be legit. When you tell fans that you might consider something if enough fans want it, it sounds...maybe not like a promise, but not like a dismissal. Naive, maybe, on their part to believe him. But not deluded. Not willful. YMMV, of course. And of course a small subset of the fans (just like any other group) may have gotten carried away, but the majority of Sterek fans wouldn't have bothered believing it could become canon if it weren't for JD and co. fueling those flames. I always took his comments as tongue in cheek -more of a joke than any real promise (on the Sterek front). And judging by the way the actors interact with each other, I'm almost certain his comments were in jest. Like "Oh yea, they're totally gonna bang (nod nod, wink wink, no not really that was sarcasm)". Mind you, this is all my opinion. And word has it that Dylan and Tyler were drunk as fuck when they filmed that boat video, and it was for a couples poll that Sterek was in. It was like "Here's a video of us snuggling, haha vote for us. Thank you." Girls do this in bars (but with more making out) to get free drinks, I didn't see anything wrong with them doing it for a inconsequential poll that would only get them more promotion for their show. And JD very well could have intended Teen Wolf to have more gay/sexually fluid characters, but everyone forgets that he technically works for someone. He doesn't own the rights to Teen Wolf, the company could fire him and hire another writer to take his place (They did it on The Walking Dead, which is a HUGE show). If his company tells him to keep it gay-friendly, but gay-lite then he's probably going to listen to them. It sucks, because it makes him look bad for something he might have no control over. And while their may be a big push in fandom for more queer characters, there might not be one within their general audience as a whole. Well, they gave shippers a video of Tyler/Dylan snuggling together on a boat. It felt like that was the deal and I took it as them offering fan-service up front. But this goes back to the matter of expectations and how much those fans wanted out of the TW writers and actors (there probably were different levels of expectation within Sterek fandom like you say). As a fan myself, I'd say that fans are capable of using in return. Fanfic writers use the characters and world Jeff created without his permission and he has no control over that, but he does get to decide what actually goes into the show or not. Dylan and Hoechlin have no control over fans using their characters & physical appearances for stories and artwork (some of which are wildly pornographic) but they shouldn't be pressured into saying "I ship Sterek!" at conventions so that their approval can be used to back up in ship wars and campaigns. I think that kind of thing is fans overstepping. I agree with this. Especially with the (mild) backlash Hoechlin received when he honestly answered a question presented to him about Sterek: (paraphrasing) It's fine if you ship it, but I don't. I focus on my character and what he's doing in the realm of the show, and Sterek has nothing to do with Derek as a character that I play. I think we all have our opinions on this whole situation though, as we should. Do I think the cast, as a whole, should've watched what they said in the beginning? Yea, probably. But they were probably excited that fans had latched onto their brand new show so fervently. Some people saw the pull for Sterek and some don't. I've always been in the latter, but different strokes for different folks. Link to comment
ElleryAnne August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 (edited) Well, they gave shippers a video of Tyler/Dylan snuggling together on a boat. But that was part of the baiting. Oh, see us saying "we're on a ship?" Please vote for us!" Cute, but not the kind of thing implied in a "maybe if there's enough interest, I'll consider Sterek in the future" way. Not even throwing the fans a bone, because it was just the actors being adorable in order for the show to win a poll. As a fan myself, I'd say that fans are capable of using in return. Fanfic writers use the characters and world Jeff created without his permission and he has no control over that, True, but I don't think it's the same thing. If you create a product for profit, you usually don't get to dictate how the consumers of the product receive or use the product. You get paid, and you continue to make products. If the fans were making money on the fanfic, it'd be different, but knowing that your product may inspire transformative works is part of deal when you create a show. And yes, the flip side to that is that you as the show creator get to make your characters the way you want within the show, and you are never obligated to give any fans what they want. (As a rule, I don't think showrunners should let themselves be influenced by fan ideas for stories or relationships at all, unless that showrunner is exceptionally talented. Most, show creators can barely make their own original ideas work and shouldn't venture out and try ideas that originated elsewhere, because they probably won't be able to do justice to interpretations they don't fully grasp. Jeff Davis is not one of the exceptionally talented ones, just based on the plot holes he writes every week.) Hinting that you might consider making a pairing canon, in order to get the fans to do what you want, even if you have no intention of following through on what you implied, is perfectly legal and market-savvy. It's shitty, but it's smart. At least unless and until it alienates those fans and the ratings go down. But that's the gamble. If there's enough else in the show for the fans to like, you probably don't lose them, and you can keep using them. From what I've seen Sterek fans are not a minority group in the fandom (far from it) and fans often employ 'majority rules' arguments for their ship to win over any other ship. I'm not sure what you're saying here? It's true, Sterek is, AFAIK, the largest fandom in the greater Teen Wolf fandom (by a wide margin, if the fanfic counts on popular sites can be used as a measure). So yes, if their ship wins a contest or poll, it's usually because they can outnumber fans of other ships in voting for their favorite pairing. That would probably happen even without JD interfering. Maybe that raises expectations for how much the fans feel the creators will go to service them? Maybe. But I don't think the fanfic competitions, etc., would lead the Sterek fans (or fans of any other ship) to think anyone would consider the paring beyond fanfic if not for some of the other things. For the most part, the fandom was happy at having their ship included in the competitions, but knew nothing would become canon. I think the problem is that JD was savvy enough to use the popularity of Sterek, but not smart enough to anticipate that some people would hold him accountable. they shouldn't be pressured into saying "I ship Sterek!" at conventions so that their approval can be used to back up in ship wars and campaigns. I think that kind of thing is fans overstepping. I agree completely with that. I don't think they should have to say they ship Sterek or Stalia or Stydia or anyone else. I think the smart thing would be for them to say No Comment, actually. Avoid the problem altogether. Especially with the (mild) backlash Hoechlin received when he honestly answered a question presented to him about Sterek: (paraphrasing) It's fine if you ship it, but I don't. I focus on my character and what he's doing in the realm of the show, and Sterek has nothing to do with Derek as a character that I play. Most fans that I know supported Tyler completely and respected his statement that he focuses on how Derek is written within the show. The real backlash was several months earlier than that, when Posey stated that he thought Sterek fans watched the show for the wrong reason, and used words like bizarre when talking about Sterek and its fans. (It's like the Coleman fiasco with Swanqueen. Slash fandoms are used to be dismissed as irrelevant, but would really rather not be outright insulted.) Edited August 7, 2014 by ElleryAnne 1 Link to comment
Yitzhak August 8, 2014 Share August 8, 2014 (edited) I always took his comments as tongue in cheek -more of a joke than any real promise (on the Sterek front). And judging by the way the actors interact with each other, I'm almost certain his comments were in jest. If the comments came from Twitter I guess we can't hear Jeff's tone of voice, so those comments could have been taken at face value. Based on the on-camera references to Sterek it's clearer to me that they didn't take it seriously. And for me, the boat video would be Exhibit A evidencing that the cast/creators don't take Sterek seriously. So yes, if their ship wins a contest or poll, it's usually because they can outnumber fans of other ships in voting for their favorite pairing. What I was meaning to say was that Sterek's own popularity and dominance over fandom shipping polls seems to give some fans the idea that they can overstep and pressure the show-runners to give them what they want. Maybe that was sparked by Jeff saying things like "if there's enough demand for it..." hence fans start demanding in large numbers. Jeff is on safer ground when he says things like "Only if it's right for the story" because IMO Sterek has never been a plausible direction for the story to take. Maybe Sterek fans disagree but then most of the Sterek fic I've seen on Ao3 looks to be wildly AU. I'd need to see a convincing canon compliant Sterek fic to believe it'd ever work in the show. I don't think showrunners should let themselves be influenced by fan ideas for stories or relationships at all It's not unheard of and I don't think it's always a bad thing. Like say, as a Battlestar Galactica fan, I was pleased when the writers made Felix Gaeta a canon queer character for no other reason than that many fans interpreted his character that way and the actor thought his character might be queer too. Again, it comes back to slash expectations - for me, when you get confirmation that the gay subtext you're seeing is really there, it's nice. It's validating. But I'd still say the great slash tradition is about reading between the lines of canon and inserting your own fantasies rather than expecting any explicit onscreen confirmations of your pairing. Jeff seemed rather more serious when asked whether Stiles could be bisexual, but as I've said, I don't think there's enough canon basis even for that. In BSG, fans thought Felix was gay because he appeared to have an intense crush on another male character. In TW, have we ever seen Stiles crushing on a guy? We have Stiles hoping gay guys find him attractive and contemplating losing his virginity to Danny (for life saving measures) but those things say bi-curious to me, more so than bisexual. Of course, a bi-curious teen could turn out to be actually bisexual, but since Stiles has never bothered to pursue relationships with guys the way he has with girls it seems like his bisexual inclinations may be nothing more than a whim. As they can be for many questioning teens. The real backlash was several months earlier than that, when Posey stated that he thought Sterek fans watched the show for the wrong reason, and used words like bizarre when talking about Sterek and its fans. TBH, I feel like Posey and Hoechlin were expressing the same basic opinion, though Posey was far more blunt about it. In different ways both of them were saying that Sterek is a fandom thing and not part of the show that they make. And for the actors it probably is "bizarre" that a large group of fans are so obsessed with a desired gay romance that doesn't exist onscreen. I know when I first found out about slash I found it weird too (before I became a fan of it as a subgenre). It's probably weirder for the actors to be aware that there are thousands of stories online depicting graphic sex between them and their co-workers. I don't think an actor would have to be homophobic to be weirded out by erotic fanworks about them, especially if it's about two of their characters who don't even have an onscreen romance. Like it or not, Posey may have been candidly expressing some exasperation that is felt by many of the cast about fandom shipping culture. Shippers do often give the impression that they only watch the show for their pairing and clearly the cast/creators would prefer fans to watch for the show as a whole. Edited August 8, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
ElleryAnne August 8, 2014 Share August 8, 2014 What I was meaning to say was that Sterek's own popularity and dominance over fandom shipping polls seems to give some fans the idea that they can overstep and pressure the show-runners to give them what they want. Maybe that was sparked by Jeff saying things like "if there's enough demand for it..." hence fans start demanding in large numbers. I would disagree with that, in that I don't think fans were pressuring or demanding anything. Someone asked, and JD answered the way he did, and as a result fans made more of an effort to let him know there was interest with requests. It's not the same as demanding it, and while there are always a few people at cons who are more vocal than most, it's not as if the majority of Sterek fans have been noisy about it. JD said what he did, so what should he expect? I'm sure some people would say he should expect fans to assume he was joking and never to mention it again, but the fact is he said stuff, he encouraged the fans, and some responded by asking or hoping. I don't blame the fans for believing him; I blame JD for leading them on if he didn't mean it. I've seen on Ao3 looks to be wildly AU. I'd need to see a convincing canon compliant Sterek fic to believe it'd ever work in the show. Actually, there's some very well-written Sterek fic that's canon-compliant, and there's also some very thoughtful meta on the subject. If you're interested in it, let me know and I'll give you some links. but those things say bi-curious to me, more so than bisexual. Of course, a bi-curious teen could turn out to be actually bisexual, but since Stiles has never bothered to pursue relationships with guys the way he has with girls it seems like his bisexual inclinations may be nothing more than a whim. As they can be for many questioning teens. Possibly, but he's barely seventeen. A reading of bisexual is no more unlikely than a reading of bi-curious - and again, JD has admitted he intentionally hinted at Stiles being bisexual. So if fans believe it, they're not wrong for doing so. feel like Posey and Hoechlin were expressing the same basic opinion I don't see that at all. One said basically that he doesn't let fan interpretations influence him; the other said that some fan interpretations were weird and wrong. TH (who, even if he doesn't ship it, at least is comfortable enough to reach across and hold DO's hand and say there's a 50/50 chance of it happening, jokingly, in response to a question) was responding that as an actor he focuses on the character the way it's presented to him. He didn't give an opinion against Sterek or any pairing. TP did. Posey may have been candidly expressing some exasperation that is felt by many of the cast about fandom shipping culture. I'm sure it sometimes bothers them if shippers take something different away from the show than what they anticipated, or if shippers ask questions - or, as in this case, a reporter asks a question about a ship. But people watch for different reasons. Shippers are allowed to watch only for their pairing if they choose, even if that pairing isn't canon. And Teen Wolf, more than many shows, has benefited from having a loyal and vocal slash fanbase in its Sterek fans. Look at what happened with the EW shipping poll, for example, and how much press that ended up getting for the show. And to its credit, the cast and writing team of Teen Wolf have generally been very supportive of its Sterek fans. TH and DO have both supposedly gone to JD with suggestions for things to include as a nod to the fans. JD and the PTB have also used social media to their advantage in helping grow their fanbase in part (a not insignificant part at that) due to the popularity of Sterek. Posey himself has joked in the past that he shipped Scott/Isaac - so I suspect he's not against all shipping or all slash interpretations all the time. So I give him some slack for the comment, but still, he said it and he alienated some of those fans. Link to comment
galax-arena August 8, 2014 Share August 8, 2014 (edited) He didn't give an opinion against Sterek or any pairing. Tyler Hoechlin said that he thought it would be "disrespectful" to the character. To me that's pretty clearly coming out against Sterek. He didn't insult the shippers themselves the way Posey did, but he's against the couple becoming canon at the very least. Edited August 8, 2014 by galax-arena Link to comment
ElleryAnne August 8, 2014 Share August 8, 2014 Tyler Hoechlin said that he thought it would be "disrespectful" to the character. To me that's pretty clearly coming out against Sterek. No. He said he thought it would be disrespectful to the character for him as the actor to entertain any thoughts about it, because he wants to play the character the way it's written and he sees Sterek as a separate thing. He didn't come out against Sterek. Link to comment
Bruinsfan August 10, 2014 Share August 10, 2014 Honestly, my impression is that a couple of years ago Hoechlin thought it was funny, liked the prospect of more scenes with the show's most talented young actor (which usually turned out to be his own best/most popular scenes), and appreciated any attention from fans at all. But now that he's been through a bunch of conventions panels' worth of Sterek questions to the exclusion of what he's actually been putting effort into onscreen and has been told by either his management or show higher-ups to stop encouraging the pairing, it's become something of an uncomfortable subject. 4 Link to comment
lion10 August 10, 2014 Share August 10, 2014 I'd like Teen Wolf to focus more on the Scott-Peter relationship. Based on what Peter's said in the past and the trailer, he seems to feel both proud and proprietary of Scott. The heart-to-heart conversations they could have would be really interesting. 1 Link to comment
Yitzhak August 12, 2014 Share August 12, 2014 (edited) So we got some more insight into Malia sneaking into Stiles room at night. I'm guessing that was a memory as well as a dream? I'm not seeing any of these so-called consent issues based on this scene alone. It looks like Stiles was the one who chose which spooning position he liked best and he now seems unable to sleep peacefully without Malia there. Given all Stiles' trouble with sleep walking I can see why it'd be comforting for him to sleep with those strong were-coyote arms holding him. Also I'm not clear if Stiles/Malia are officially broken up now or not. But then I don't think they ever defined themselves as an official couple either. Derek/Braeden are okay but I'm so bored with Derek's B story. He needs to be a werewolf again because apart from being extra muscle he has nothing else to contribute to the pack. Seriously it's embarrassing. I've no interest in watching Derek sulk shirtlessly on the sidelines. Hopefully Braeden will hurry up and teach him to be a badass regardless of supernatural strength so he can get with the team again. So with Kate calling Stiles "handsome" it looks like she's not giving up her habit of creeping on teenage boys. Hopefully that's not foreshadowing (based on a Jeff comment at comiccon). And speaking of adults seducing minors, why is Lydia suddenly turning 18 in her junior year, huh? With the very deliberate age tweek it seems like they really might be heading in a Lydia/Parrish direction. *groans* I really loved Melissa and Kira's mom teaming up this week. The parents should form their own pack! Edited August 12, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys August 13, 2014 Share August 13, 2014 And speaking of adults seducing minors, why is Lydia suddenly turning 18 in her junior year, huh? I thought it was heavily implied in season 1 that Jackson, Danny, and Lydia were a grade ahead? Either way, she had her 17th birthday party back in season 2...I just gave up on keeping up with ages/math on this show. At least it's not PLL bad where the gang'll probably still be in high school 10 seasons from now Link to comment
galax-arena August 13, 2014 Share August 13, 2014 (edited) He said he thought it would be disrespectful to the character for him as the actor to entertain any thoughts about it, because he wants to play the character the way it's written and he sees Sterek as a separate thing. Eh, I disagree. I think he was pretty obviously against Sterek but was stumbling over his words in an effort to not offend the fandom. He probably saw the shit that Posey got and was wiser about it. Saying that it'd simply be disrespectful to the character as an actor to even think about it wouldn't really make much sense because he doesn't seem to have a problem talking about other things that aren't explicitly written on the page. So if that interpretation holds true, then that's a dumb cop-out answer. I'd be really surprised if anyone on the show had a positive impression of the Teen Wolf fandom, come to think of it. And I wouldn't necessarily blame them.... other than Jeff Davis, that is. I'm not seeing any of these so-called consent issues based on this scene alone. It looks like Stiles was the one who chose which spooning position he liked best I’m pretty sure they’re trying to retcon (in a sense), quite possibly because they got a lot of shit for that earlier scene. So no, there were no consent issues in this week’s ep, but that doesn’t mean there weren’t any in that other ep. We know that continuity is not Jeff Davis’ forte, anyway. I’ve said before that I’m willing to overlook the earlier ep because it was a one-off thing and I do feel like Davis probably wasn’t aware of the unfortunate implications in what he was writing*, but I still maintain that that scene itself was unfortunate. Braeden and Derek were hot. And I like Derek so much more when he isn't brooding. * Neither is he aware of the unfortunate implications in how he wrote Stiles/Lydia, but that wasn’t a one-off thing so it was harder for me to ignore. Edited August 13, 2014 by galax-arena Link to comment
Yitzhak August 13, 2014 Share August 13, 2014 (edited) I thought it was heavily implied in season 1 that Jackson, Danny, and Lydia were a grade ahead? I could picture those three characters being older too, but the trouble is that they've always shared classes with Stiles and Scott who definitely started out as sophomores and are now juniors. With Lydia they really can't claim that she'd need to repeat a year. She'd be more likely to skip ahead. I’m pretty sure they’re trying to retcon (in a sense), quite possibly because they got a lot of shit for that earlier scene. So no, there were no consent issues in this week’s ep, Wouldn't that episode already be in the can by the time they were airing 4x2 though? Either way, I don't actually think the two scenes contradict each other. I think it's clear in both the 4x2 talk and the 4x8 flashback that Stiles struggled to adjust to the werecoyote girl in his bed at first, but that Stiles liked her and therefore didn't ask her to leave. Then the moment Malia pulled Stiles into the little spoon position he found he liked it, so much that he now misses it. I never felt like it was implied that Stiles didn't like the spooning. As for the scratching, I don't think we're likely to get an onscreen example of how much Stiles likes or doesn't like the rough sex that it is implied he and Malia are having due to Dylan O'Brien's insistence that Stiles never ever takes his shirt off. My main issue with Stiles/Malia continues to be that they never give them enough time and development. There are hints that they could use this couple to subvert the stereotypical gender roles of human/supernatural creature ships. I'd love to see more of that if they made the time for it. And I don't object to the idea of Stiles and Malia being each other's therapy either, since they can't afford Eichen house treatment and Eichen house is horrible anyway. I just don't feel like the writers do enough with these potentially good ideas. And next week Stiles is teamed up with Lydia again. I still think Malia is an interim love interest before they eventfully give us a Stiles/Lydia romance. Malia's desert wolf mother could be setting up an exit story if her mother turns out to be an actual coyote it could tempt Malia to return to the wild to have a family again. I also have a theory that Lydia/Parrish will turn out to be an unrequited crush on Lydia's part. Just an idea. Even if Lydia does turn 18 and wants to date older guys Parrish make not want to be a cop dating a barely legal high school girl. And who knows if Parrish is really 24? He may be some sort of eternally youthful immortal. Edited August 13, 2014 by Yitzhak 1 Link to comment
Yitzhak September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 (edited) You know...I'm actually starting to miss the Scott/Allison ship. Not because I actually liked it very much. Just that when the show had their big central Romeo & Juliet ship they tended to put all the romantic emphasis on them so that all the other characters could have friendships, rivalries, unrequited crushes, etc. I think I'd rather have just one big romantic ship that I can put up with rather than the multiple half-baked romantic ships we have now. It's now looking like the four remaining original regulars will be spending most their time paired off with a latecomer love interest (since I'm guessing Lydia/Parrish is already a done deal). I don't find that satisfying at all. I'd prefer to see everyone single again and just interacting as a whole pack. While I don't especially hate any of the couplings, the relationship stories are simply not interesting. These ships have no real conflict or obstacles. Scott/Allison had that much at least. I know everyone's talking about Derek and Stiles finally interacting again in the last episode after spending yet another season apart (correction: the characters actually had lots of scenes together in 4x2 which get curiously discounted by fans), I'm trying to remember if there has been a single scene all season between Melissa and Stilinski. Have there been any scenes with Melissa/Sheriff?! I'm sure the cast/writers have been hinting that something might happen between these two in S4 and yet they've not even crossed paths. Whether you ship them romantically or not, they do have a strong bond and I'm rather annoyed that it's been forgotten all season after some great scenes in 3b. Edited September 9, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 I know everyone's talking about Derek and Stiles finally interacting again in the last episode after spending yet another season apart (correction: the characters actually had lots of scenes together in 4x2 which get curiously discounted by fans) A big part of the appeal in their scenes is in the chemistry between the actors and the characters as we know them, and while Ian Nelson is quite good as bb!Derek it isn't quite the same. Also, while they had a few scenes in that second episode, when we have to reach all the way back to the beginning of the season for it, it's not much different. It's still the bulk of the season. It's now looking like the four remaining original regulars will be spending most their time paired off with a latecomer love interest (since I'm guessing Lydia/Parrish is already a done deal). I don't find that satisfying at all. I'd prefer to see everyone single again and just interacting as a whole pack. I have this nagging fear that S5 will amount to a long string of episodes in which Stiles and Malia search for the Desert Wolf from the comfort of Stiles' bed while Scott and Kira prepare for graduation and Lydia spends all her time at the police station, followed by a finale in which they all meet up with Derek and Braedon, who've located the Desert Wolf somewhere in Nevada and are planning a showdown with her. Have there been any scenes with Melissa/Sheriff?! I'm sure the cast/writers have been hinting that something might happen between these two in S4 and yet they've not even crossed paths. I can't think of any in S4. It's too bad, because they're very good in their scenes together when they do get them. I still picture last season, when Stiles was having the MRI. Melissa and the Sheriff were watching the boys - just simply two parents who've known these kids their whole lives and known each other a long time and knew what it was to be terrified for your child's well-being - and they sold that scene with barely a word. 1 Link to comment
Bruinsfan September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 I'm just happy to see them in good scenes with their own kids, as those are my favorite relationships on the show. Link to comment
Atony September 12, 2014 Share September 12, 2014 while Scott and Kira prepare for graduation Scott and Kira (and Stiles) are currently in late January/February of their junior year. Jeff Davis still has a while before he has to worry about graduation because of how he has structured the show, it has all taken place over about a year of Teen Wolf-universe time. I'm interested in the future of Lydia though. Are they going to say she is an 18 year old junior in highschool or say she is a year ahead of the others and will be graduating soon. Regardless I do agree her and Parrish are a done deal Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 12, 2014 Share September 12, 2014 Scott and Kira (and Stiles) are currently in late January/February of their junior year. Should be more like late March, shouldn't it? Lacrosse season started around the last full moon, and the finale took place on the following full moon. I'd take the time to check the actual full moons from 2012, but since I'm sure the writers didn't, why bother? Link to comment
Yitzhak September 12, 2014 Share September 12, 2014 (edited) A big part of the appeal in their scenes is in the chemistry between the actors and the characters as we know them, and while Ian Nelson is quite good as bb!Derek it isn't quite the same. I felt like the 4x2 scenes were more like classic Stiles & Derek interactions though. The new zen Derek doesn't clash with Stiles like the old grumpy cat Derek used to and that makes their scenes less entertaining for me. That said, I kind of appreciated Stiles's reaction to Derek's apparent death - the way he lingered, seeming to believe it would be the last time he saw Derek alive. I didn't find it Stereky. It was appropriate to focus on Stiles's reaction since, other than Peter (who also looked upset) every other character present had only known Derek for a few weeks. But Stiles's reaction was the first time that ANY of the pack had reacted emotionally to Derek being doomed. That's been one of the worst things about this whole Derek story for me. The fact that Lydia predicted his death and nobody seemed to care, including Derek himself. It made it so obvious that it would be a death fake out because the writers were too lazy to have anyone react as though a friend of theirs might really be dying. They'd done a much better job in 3b creating a sense of pack!concern over Stiles being possessed (even though Dylan obviously wasn't getting killed off either). I can't understand why this story was handled so badly by the same writers just a few months later. Back to shipping the parent characters, I don't think Melissa had scenes with Agent McCall in S4 either. I'd have liked to see more scenes with all three of those characters. Not in a love triangle way, but rather because I'm interested in the McCall & Stilinski families' history with each other and how the parents interacted around their sons' close friendship. Like how the dad's both seem to have struggled with drinking problems and Claudia died at the hospital where Melissa works. I'd love a parents centric flashback. I know it'd never happen but still. Edited September 12, 2014 by Yitzhak 1 Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 13, 2014 Share September 13, 2014 I felt like the 4x2 scenes were more like classic Stiles & Derek interactions though. I agree, insofar as the dialogue goes (not the de-aging story, of course). The writing for those scenes was in character, unlike the writing for Derek most of the season. Or much of the writing for many of them, for that matter. And unfortunately, that's where their scenes together stopped until the finale. I've heard that JD passed off the writing for Derek's arc to a new writer, which could explain one of the many problems of the season. I've said before that I think Derek has been entirely too zen this season - and I know that some fans expected a reveal that he wasn't really Derek, but no, it was just really poor writing. And honestly, it's got to be extremely poor writing when the fans expect to find out the character is an imposter. I kind of appreciated Stiles's reaction to Derek's apparent death - the way he lingered, seeming to believe it would be the last time he saw Derek alive. Entirely apart from Sterek, I appreciated that scene for two things. First, the fact that someone among the Scoobies was concerned about Derek. As you said, that's been lacking all season. And while I wouldn't expect them to care back in early S1 when they thought he was a killer, it certainly makes sense that they'd be concerned now. Again, that's a fault in the writing of this season, which missed any number of character beats and flattened most of the characters into something less than they should be at this point in the series. The other thing I liked about it was that it showed Stiles himself realizing the seriousness of the moment. Stiles, more than almost any other character this season, has been a disappointment to me. He's had so little depth this season, and actually seems to have gone backwards in his development. So seeing him take that second to recognize the gravity of the situation pleased me. And while I'm a Sterek fan, I would have appreciated that moment regardless of who was dying. The death of someone he knows and probably counts among his friends at this point should draw that reaction from Stiles, so I was glad they included it. Even if I believe it was only included as a bone tossed to the Sterek fans. Back to shipping the parent characters, I don't think Melissa had scenes with Agent McCall in S4 either. I'd have liked to see more scenes with all three of those characters. Not in a love triangle way, but rather because I'm interested in the McCall & Stilinski families' history with each other and how the parents interacted around their sons' close friendship. Like how the dad's both seem to have struggled with drinking problems and Claudia died at the hospital where Melissa works. I'd love a parents centric flashback. Absolutely agree with this. Those are the families of the two core characters, and I would love to see more about them. Sign me up to watch that flashback if it ever occurs. 2 Link to comment
Yitzhak September 13, 2014 Share September 13, 2014 (edited) honestly, it's got to be extremely poor writing when the fans expect to find out the character is an imposter. Clone!Derek had also been my theory for how the writers were going to have Derek dying-yet-not-really-dying in the finale. But that was me thinking that Derek's S4 storyline was going to have any sort of mythological logic or explanation in the end. It seemed like the writers just had a flimsy plan to show Derek "evolving!" in S4 like they had a flimsy plan that we would "find out more!" about Lydia's banshee powers in S4. In both cases, Derek and Lydia's supernatural powers just became more senseless in S4 and though they were supposed to have focal storylines, they felt more sidelined and isolated from the pack than ever before. Stiles, more than almost any other character this season, has been a disappointment to me. He's had so little depth this season, and actually seems to have gone backwards in his development. Since the writers have claimed that they wanted Scott, Derek and Lydia to have the major storylines this season it seems like Stiles and also Kira who had major storylines in 3b simply didn't get to have an individual storyline at all in S4. I wouldn't say Stiles was out of character per say but it definitely felt like the writers just returned Stiles to his factory settings - he's back to being the funny hyper token human who is Scott's sidekick, who cares about his dad and who does detective stuff with Lydia. Which is fine. Stiles has all those aspects and I wouldn't want him to lose them, but it did feel like a step backward to drop all the psychological depth that they gave him in 3b. They didn't have to do that. Since Jeff is clearly a big Hannibal fan they could have had Stiles become the Will Graham of the pack - a detective who has a disturbing insight into the minds of psychotic killers (in Stiles' case, because he was once possessed by one). It could've worked perfectly with the assassin storyline. Instead it felt like both Stiles and Kira were reduced to their ship stories with Malia and Scott. And as you've pointed out, they used Stiles as a prop for Malia's development, not the other way around. I think poor Kira suffered worst of all because even her relationship story with Scott ultimately came second to Scott's relationship to Liam in S4. And even Scott's relationship with Liam never felt that substantial. It felt like the writers were going for a Buffy/Dawn type of instant-younger-sibling story with Scott and Liam but they didn't spend enough time on it. There were simply too many characters and too many half-baked new ships in S4. The only relationships that really resonated in S4 were the ones that were well established in previous seasons - the parent-child relationships, Scott & Stiles friendship, etc. And they didn't include enough of those established ships. Edited September 13, 2014 by Yitzhak 2 Link to comment
Snarkette September 13, 2014 Share September 13, 2014 For me, Teen Wolf is really all about the parent-child relationships. The Stilinski relationship pere and fils is the heart of the show for me but damned if I didn't start enjoying the Peter/Malia and Scott/Liam ones as well during Season 4. I could use more of Peter's wackadoodle fatherly advice as in the final ep of the season and the blood money talk with Mamma McCall and Scott was terrific. (The manufactured money troubles of all the Beacon Hill families was not. Yawn.) I'm really prejudiced negatively against the Noshiko/Kira relationship. The pile-of-bones-vision did nothing for me and I have an allergy to multi-hundred-year-old characters (they're never done well) even though I have a big soft spot for Kira's dad. He needs to be written with more backbone though, because with an overpowered wife and child, he needs more narrative strength. Going forth to S5, the relationship I'm most interested in seeing grow is the one between Papa Stalinski and Deputy Parrish. They already have the mentor/mentee thing going really well. It feels like a great opportunity to push the bounds of both the challenge of entering the supernatural world and becoming the responsible protector of said world. Papa S is already there, even if he's still adjusting to the new facts on the ground. There could be some great narrative exploration with Deputy P who even remains figuratively although not literally a rookie. Deaton still feels bolted on rather than a real part of the story. Veterinarian yoda could use a kick in the story-line, and I'm hoping that Mr. Three Eyes will provide that as an antagonist. More interaction with the Eichen/Arkham asylum would be very welcome. Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 13, 2014 Share September 13, 2014 thinking that Derek's S4 storyline was going to have any sort of mythological logic or explanation in the end That's where we went wrong this season. We thought storylines would make sense in the end. Instead it felt like both Stiles and Kira were reduced to their ship stories with Malia and Scott. Exactly! And we can add Braedon to that list. And I hate that characters I genuinely like were used this way. It's a fundamental lack of skill in writing when you have to shore up a character or storyline by sacrificing another character. If the character being propped or the storyline being written can't stand on its own without requiring another character to be dumbed down in some way, then you've done something wrong. but it did feel like a step backward to drop all the psychological depth that they gave him in 3b. They didn't have to do that. They didn't even have to give him a big psychological story. All they had to do was include a few small, simple things that would indicate he was still struggling with the repercussions of what he went through. He stabbed Scott while he was possessed. He was so shaken by it that he had himself checking into a mental facility. It makes no sense at all that in S4 he showed no signs of being troubled. But instead, we get Stalia. Both Stiles and Malia would have been better served this season if they'd been given more scenes with other people. Especially, in Malia's case, some parent-child scenes. Talk about a wasted opportunity. the relationship I'm most interested in seeing grow is the one between Papa Stalinski and Deputy Parrish. They already have the mentor/mentee thing going really well. Yeah, I really like that relationship, as well. (I like the sheriff's interactions with anybody. Linden Ashby is great.) A lot of the best relationships on this show are the ones they don't seem to try so hard with. They're just there. Parrish is the only one of the newbies that I think they did a good job with during both 3b and S4. They brought him as a background character, established him as a deputy, and dropped a hint or two that there was more to him being drawn to Beacon Hills. And they had him work with the sheriff a little in 3b and more in S4 to start building trust, and even had Derek in the mix for a scene or two. We're learning about him slowly, from his first name to the fact that he doesn't even know what abilities he has. Even the way they're testing the waters with him and Lydia is slow enough to be organic. (For me, that works so much better than pushing a character on me and telling me I'm going to love them. Develop them first, and let me decide for myself if I'm going to love them.) Since I've had time to get to know him, I feel more invested in the relationships he has with other characters. I have a big soft spot for Kira's dad. He needs to be written with more backbone though, because with an overpowered wife and child, he needs more narrative strength. Totally agree. 1 Link to comment
ahisma September 13, 2014 Share September 13, 2014 Actually, I really liked the virus episode for the fact that both Natalie Martin and Papa Yukimura got to be adults in charge who did everything in their power to help the kids, just as we've seen the sheriff, Melissa, and Chris act in the past. Natalie was, since she doesn't know about the supernatural, supporting all the schoolkids with the CDC's help, and Papa Yukimura filled the role that the sheriff or Melissa have served in the past of getting the Pack the help/information they need to go do their supernatural thing. I would love to see a parents' night hangout, especially once Natalie and Dr. Hot Stepdad get read in. I'm hoping Braeden gets to get back to super ass-kicking next season on the trail of the Desert Wolf. I didn't mind (okay, I liked it a lot!) her sexytimes hanging out with Derek. She's a great match for him. But I thought the super weepy scene when he was dying was a little overdone—too much too soon (like most TW relationships). And I really liked Kira with Scott last season. This season, meh. Yeah, the grandma kiss and the first date were cute, but she was so underused. Out of the whole season, I only really liked her falling down the stairs, saving the werewolves on the lacrosse field, and her mother giving her powers advice. Unfortunately, that last scene came about a season and a half too late. 1 Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 13, 2014 Share September 13, 2014 I really liked the virus episode for the fact that both Natalie Martin and Papa Yukimura got to be adults in charge who did everything in their power to help the kids I liked that, too. I also liked that episode for the little reveal from Natalie about Coach's 15 year sobriety. That moment left me wanting to know more about them both. But for a show that's about teens, the adults are usually the more interesting characters anyway. I'm hoping Braeden gets to get back to super ass-kicking next season on the trail of the Desert Wolf. I didn't mind (okay, I liked it a lot!) her sexytimes hanging out with Derek. I wanted to like it. In theory, those two should be great together, with sparks flying all over the place. And with a different writer, they might have been. But once Braeden became the love-interest, she stopped being the BAMF mercenary. I remember there had been speculation earlier in the season that she was hired by Peter to keep Derek distracted, and that's why she wasn't really looking for Kate all season. That would have been a more interesting twist, although I have mixed feelings on it because I love her as a merc and wouldn't have wanted her to be essentially a prostitute. Though at least it would have gelled with her "anything if the price is right" mentality, and explained why she wasn't doing what she was supposed to be doing most of the season. (Instead, I'll just pretend that sex with Derek is so good that she forgot who she was. ;) ) The Loft of Zen seems to take the badass right out of anyone who enters it nowadays. I think everyone needs to spend time in the train station beta hangout from S2. There are better vibes there or something. Ack, TW and its romances. They did look good together, though. Link to comment
ahisma September 13, 2014 Share September 13, 2014 Instead, I'll just pretend that sex with Derek is so good that she forgot who she was. ;) I would completely buy that. :D Hah! So true about the Loft of Zen. Maybe after all the violence the loft has seen Derek had Deaton do some kind of peace spell on it and it lingered. (Well, until Kate and the Berserkers got there, anyway.) 1 Link to comment
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