HOTD In The Media: News From The Citadel

[KBrownie]

2 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

I know which team I'm on: Team HBO Marketing. Effing brilliant.

I agree it's an absolutely brilliant and effective strategy.  The  posters as well.  I liked how the Green promo had the Aegon actor introducing it while the Black had the Rhaenyra actress introducing that one because the leaders of both sides now that there will be a war SHOULD be him and Rhaenyra, but then the majority of the Green promo is still all about Alicent.  Aegon is just her puppet in her made-up war against Rhaenyra.  Just as she was, and still is, her father’s.

The problem with the promotion is that it still misses a fundamental point.  There's so much "both sides"-ing of the two sides when it's just the greens who are at the root of all the tension and conflict in the lead up to and final action of usurping the throne.  They were the ones lying, plotting, and manipulating in their own greed and ambition for power.  The two sides are not the same.  Team Green are the villains of this story.  RHAENYRA’S story.  They aren’t equals to her.

That's not to say that anyone on team black never did anything wrong or are moral and good people.  But nothing any of them did, unlike the greens, was directly responsible for the war or what led up to it. They were living their own lives and largely minding their own business while Alicent, Otto, and the rest are plotting because they are greedy, resentful, and jealous haters. 

Rhaenyra was the chosen and rightful heir as decided by her father the King.  Whether one agrees with that decision or not, it was her right.  She didn’t steal it.  She didn’t gain that position through any deceitful means.  She isn’t wrong to want what was taken from her and to defend herself against an unwarranted and undeserved attack.  Rhaenyra doesn’t have to just give in and accept whatever the Greens dish out.  Especially when THEY are the ones in the wrong. 

As far as the actual promo, Alicent still going strong in her self-righteous delusions.  She’s gaslighting herself along with everyone else at this point.  She isn’t responsible for anything that has happened or is about to happen.  Rhaenyra just wants revenge.  Viserys wanted Aegon.  She’s such an absolute clown.  I might have more respect if the coward just owned up to her machinations, but nope.  Rhaenyra is responsible for everything.  She’s just the victim protecting her children. 

It seems that she has passed on her delusions to her sons as well.  Especially that bootleg, poor imitation for Daemon, Aemond.  He welcomes the challenge from Daemon?  Lol, he don’t want that smoke.  He’s done absolutely nothing other than be slightly better than his rapist brother to have so much ego and bluster.  Accidentally killing a 14-year-old because your dragon wouldn’t listen to your orders doesn’t put him in the same league as Daemon.  And last I remember, he cowered and walked off when faced with Daemon directly.  Another clown.

Team Black.  Anything Rhaenyra or Daemon do to reclaim her throne, defend their family, and avenge Luke is justified.  Don't start none, won't be none.  

[proserpina65]

13 hours ago, KBrownie said:

That's not to say that anyone on team black never did anything wrong or are moral and good people.  But nothing any of them did, unlike the greens, was directly responsible for the war or what led up to it.

Eh, it's both sides.  Rhaenyra brought a lot of this on herself by making bad decisions and refusing to own them.  Both sides are so concerned that they have the right to the throne and don't give a tinker's damn what their argument does to the realm.  There are very few good people here, and none of them are the ones vying for the throne.

And to be clear, I include Aemond in that none.  I understand a good bit of why he's the way he is, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he does.  He's just so hot that I don't care.

Edited March 22 by proserpina65

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Both sides are so concerned that they have the right to the throne and don't give a tinker's damn what their argument does to the realm.  There are very few good people here, and none of them are the ones vying for the throne.

I don't know how to approach this thought. I think Rhaenyra has shown herself to be a reasonably good person. She made some bad decisions but those had more personal effect IMO rather than broad effect to the realm. Installing Aegon as King is seemingly a far worse decision than anything Rhaenyra has done.

What would have been the amicable solution, have Rhaenyra's babies be squires and/or cup bearers? I don't really know the answer to that question.

[Affogato]

34 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I don't know how to approach this thought. I think Rhaenyra has shown herself to be a reasonably good person. She made some bad decisions but those had more personal effect IMO rather than broad effect to the realm. Installing Aegon as King is seemingly a far worse decision than anything Rhaenyra has done.

What would have been the amicable solution, have Rhaenyra's babies be squires and/or cup bearers? I don't really know the answer to that question.

A lot if the problem, I think, is that installing a female king will tear the realm apart.  Viserys may have led her to believe she was the heir but insisting on her rights makes war inevitable. Also, she should have stayed close, if she was going to insist.  I think this would be true if the king had not had a male son. 

Edited March 22 by Affogato

[KBrownie]

17 minutes ago, Affogato said:

A lot if the problem, I think, is that installing a female king will tear the realm apart.  Viserys may have led her to believe she was the heir but insisting on her rights makes war inevitable. Also, she should have stayed close, if she was going to insist.  I think this would be true if the king had not had a male son. 

She wasn’t being installed. She was inheriting her throne as tradition. Aegon was the one who was installed.
 

And no one knew for certain that it would tear the realm apart. They all would have had to just deal with it. But everyone certainly DID know that usurping a throne probably wouldn’t cause everlasting peace. 
 

Not installing her also tore the realm apart.  
 

But that too is somehow Rhaenyra’s fault for not just accepting the Hightowers usurping her. It’s funny how SHE is the one who is supposed to just accept it and move on but the Hightowers aren’t criticized for not just accepting what Viserys wanted.
 

50 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

What would have been the amicable solution, have Rhaenyra's babies be squires and/or cup bearers? I don't really know the answer to that question.

Rhaenyra and Daemon would have been absolute fools to send their youngest boys to be Hightower hostages. Alicent and Otto would have tortured those boys because of their parents. They would have gotten extra pleasure out of torturing them because not only was Rhaenyra their mother, they were Daemon’s only sons. They hated Jace, Luke, and Joffrey just because of their mother. They would have likely just killed them when they had the chance. Crazy Aemond would probably get jealous that they were more Targaryen than him. 

Edited March 22 by KBrownie

[baldryanr]

Isn't this the entire point - Otto and Alicent see all of their actions as being for the good of the realm (Daemon is too unstable to be in power, things will fall apart with a woman on the throne, etc.) so of course they're always going to act like they're the virtuous ones.  If they happen to end up being the ones in power, well, someone has to, right?

Plus they also see it as defending the family.  She cannot leave rival claimants active because all the people who hate her will have someone to rally behind.  This is especially true with heirs whom everyone knows to be bastards, so if Rhaenyra sits the throne then first there will be a woman (how horrible) and then a bastard (how horrible again). 

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

I don't know how to approach this thought. I think Rhaenyra has shown herself to be a reasonably good person. She made some bad decisions but those had more personal effect IMO rather than broad effect to the realm. Installing Aegon as King is seemingly a far worse decision than anything Rhaenyra has done.

What would have been the amicable solution, have Rhaenyra's babies be squires and/or cup bearers? I don't really know the answer to that question.

Her having three bastards who clearly resembled their actual father rather than her husband was a huge mistake which had a broad effect on the realm.  She could've chosen a husband who could father an heir for her but she chose to be a brat and blow off the tour of eligible suitors her father had arranged.  That was not a mistake, that was a stupid decision.  Then she almost fucked her uncle and chose to coerce her bodyguard into sex in order to scratch that itch.

And all of that was before she stood there watching her half-brother getting his maimed face sewn up and decided to make the moment all about her sons being bastards instead.  So no, I don't agree she's a good person.  She's just a lousy as most of the rest of the adults.

Although I do place most of the blame for creating the conflict on Otto and Viserys and Daemon.

However, we've gone round and round about this in the episode threads and I know we're not going to agree, so I'm leaving this argument here and just go back to talking about how cool the trailers are.

[proserpina65]

24 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

She wasn’t being installed. She was inheriting her throne as tradition. Aegon was the one who was installed.

No, a woman inheriting the throne was not Targaryen tradition.  The opposite, in fact, as we saw when the Great Council of Jaehaerys passed over Rhaenys in favor of Viserys despite her having the greater claim.  That was the entire point of that scene at the beginning of the series, to show how resistant the nobles of Westeros were to having a woman on the Iron Throne.

Okay, so this is my comment on the eternal argument.

The trailers, both of them, were fantastic and really make me look forward to the new season.

[AntFTW]

11 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Her having three bastards who clearly resembled their actual father rather than her husband was a huge mistake which had a broad effect on the realm.  She could've chosen a husband who could father an heir for her but she chose to be a brat and blow off the tour of eligible suitors her father had arranged.  That was not a mistake, that was a stupid decision.  Then she almost fucked her uncle and chose to coerce her bodyguard into sex in order to scratch that itch.

I don't disagree that those are bad decisions but I kind of consider that in the abstract (if that makes sense) because it wasn't a given that those particular choices would lead to this particular outcome. Her children could have been born with Targaryen blonde heir and resembling her. She almost fucked her uncle, but that decision didn't necessarily meant war. She fucked someone who was not her husband and gave birth to bastard sons but that decision didn't necessarily mean the outcome would be war. Marrying Laenor instead of someone who would father her children didn't necessarily mean the realm world come to war. She coerced her bodyguard into sex but that decision didn't necessarily mean the outcome would be war.

I guess we should throw Viserys' stupid decision in there too. He made a mistake by marrying Alicent and having two shitheads for sons. He made a bad decision by never naming his first born son as heir. I think that if we are putting Rhaenyra's decisions in the same "basket of blame" for tearing the realm apart then there are a lot of others that are equally deserving of being in that basket.

I put the decision to usurp in a different basket because the outcome of that decision was clear. It was clear that decision meant war.

I hope I'm making sense and not sounding like a ranting idiot. 😂

11 hours ago, Affogato said:

A lot if the problem, I think, is that installing a female king will tear the realm apart.  Viserys may have led her to believe she was the heir but insisting on her rights makes war inevitable.

I agree with that but I don't blame that on Rhaenyra. If that is the thing that is tearing the realm apart, I don't think that blame lies at Rhaenyra's feet. She's playing the hand she was dealt.

She was named heir. It seems unreasonable to me to not insist on a right that was given to her.

11 hours ago, Affogato said:

Also, she should have stayed close, if she was going to insist.  I think this would be true if the king had not had a male son. 

I also agree here. I think Rhaenyra should have remained in King's Landing. I've said on (probably) a few of these episode threads that Rhaenyra should have remained in King's Landing to build her own influence as future-Queen. She should have worked to keep the favor of the Houses, and the Lords and Lady-Lords, of the ones that swore to recognize her place in the line of succession and her position as Heir Apparent.

However, I don't think that being absent should prevent her from insisting simply because she was given the title and right. The title and right was hers in every way. Why would she not insist, even if she had been (stupidly) absent?

I'll say again, it's not like the Greens didn't know Rhaenyra held the title and claim. They still chose to install Aegon as King and they knew implications of that decision. They knew that decision would definitely tear the realm apart.

Edited March 23 by AntFTW

[Affogato]

If you know the story of the frog and the scorpion, the scorpion dies along with the frog. The scorpion cannot swim. He has begged the frog for help crossing the river and the frog falsely believes that creatures are rational, or at least behave in their own self interest.
 

the scorpion stings the frog as he is swimming.

The frog says ‘why would you sting me, since it means both of us die’ and the scorpion answers ‘it is my nature’. 

the dance of the dragons is a tragedy. To tell you the truth the tragedies GRRM wrote are what attracted me to his writing. There are many things Alicent, Rhaenyra, Daemon and Viserys, all of them, could do if they were differnt people. What they do is their nature and it spins the story to its conclusion. 
 

all of these people have a way out and none of them are particularly altruistic or concerned for the small folk, as near as I can tell. What happens, has happened, is according to their nature. 

Edited March 23 by Affogato
Typo

[baldryanr]

It's kind of funny how Fabien Frankel appears to be a bigger fan of Team Black. 

The featurette is very pro-Black and I suspect a lot of the fandom feels the same way, so I wonder how much that will change after the first few episodes.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

It's kind of funny how Fabien Frankel appears to be a bigger fan of Team Black. 

The featurette is very pro-Black and I suspect a lot of the fandom feels the same way, so I wonder how much that will change after the first few episodes.

Fabien Frankel was driven off Twitter by fans who couldn't accept that someone could be a fan of characters they don't like, so I don't blame him for being careful with his words.  The HOTD fandom there can be quite vicious to the actors for being on the wrong team as they see it.