S05.E05: Miss Me x 100

[cuddlingcrowley]

Dohe, Shameless is glorious and everyone should watch it!

 

Do you guys even know what an abusive relationship is? Spoby and Ezria are not abusive relationships, or even borderline abusive relationships. I don't like Ezria or support it in any way, but they're not abusive...

 

 

Actually, with all the respect I don't think you know what an abusive relationship is and I don't claim to be an especialist. I do know there's a lot more to it than physical and verbal abusive. But I'll get into that later.

 

Also, from my pov, I think the word most used in regards to Ezria and Spoby in this thread was unhealthy. Another one I'm very fond of is toxic. Just because a relationship isn't downright abusive, it doesn't mean it's one that's good for you. Even PLL said so.

 

It's a fact that Toby joined the A-team while in a relationship with Spencer and was privy/assisted Mona in her shenanigans up to the point he was the A depicted in the A tags during the first half of season 3. We don't know for how long that was for but we know his reason was self-centered (finding the truth about his mother's death) and had absolutely nothing to do with helping Spencer. It could have been. He was an inside man and could have been a great asset for the girls against Mona as double agent but he only ever used his insider status on the A-team for himself and in detriment of the girls since he was Mona's  active assistent.

 

The reveal that Toby was A left Spencer a wreck in a mental institution. You said it yourself, he's at the very least partially responsible and was certainly responsible for being Spencer's breaking point and  yet she took him back without demanding any sort of real explanation or apology. The one he did give her, that he did it to protect her, I would consider way too little for her to choose to jump back in bed with him right then and there even if it was true. I find it hard to picture what sort of relationship would justify this level of trust, let alone one between two 17 year olds, and Spoby definitely ain't it given Toby's explanation will turn out to be not true at all so there was no reason whatsover for Spencer have given him that exceptional level of trust, if you can call it that.

 

In fact, the first half of S4 did a great job of showing how the "did it to protect Spencer" was complete and utter bullshit, pardon my french, when Spencer found herself having to lie to her friends and quite possibly put them in danger about Toby's activites so he could find out the truth about his dead mother, the living be damned. I might be wrong here because I haven't rewatched those seasons, but weren't they resposible for losing Mona's RV (the A lair) because Toby was too busy playing A's game and Spencer was too weak not to indulge him? And that was just in the premiere, If I'm not mistaken.

 

Frankly, I don't care about Toby's intentions. From what I got, he didn't care much about Spencer or anyone that wasn't his dead mother during that period to even consider what kind of consequences his actions might produce. By the time the first half of S4 was over I remember even Caleb reaching out to snap Toby out of his madness. Actually, Toby caring only about playing A's game in search of the truth about his mother's death, uncaring about what danger he might be putting the girls, and Spencer being to weak not to indulge would be a pretty accurate description of their storyline in S4. I think one of the posters nailed it: Spencer has picked Toby to be her support because she doesn't get any from her family, and he can basically do anything at this point, because she can't bear to lose him. And I'm pretty sure there's a lot more stuff i'm not quite recalling because I've been activelly trying repress those two.

 

You're right when you say Spencer chose to forgive Toby and she chose to stick by him and YMMV, but, imo, there's nothing healthy about that or anything I just described. IMO, no one with a decent amount of self-steem and dignity would make those choices and so the fact that you say Toby hasn't forced Spencer to forgive him means very little to me given the overall picture, which is far from pretty. At the very least this relationship is and has been extremelly toxic to Spencer and arguably emmotionally abusive and despite how much I try to talk myself into accepting the show as it is, I'll never stop rooting for Spencer to pull herself together and kick Toby to curb because she deserves a heck of a lot better than being in an intimate relationship with someone who has put her through hell and has shown not to care at the least.

 

I'm sorry but I disagree there's anything implied that Spencer and Toby actually discussed his actions and he gave her a proper explanation and apology. And that's an extremelly subjective line of argument and if you don't mind, i'd rather stick to what we've been actually told and shown on-screen for the sake of this discussion otherwise we can go as far as to say Ezria is a fascinating and healthy relationship off-screen and we've only been shown their rough spots and we can all go home.

 

Now, about Ezria, I'm sorry to say but that is in fact an abusive relationship. Period. Ezra has stalked Aria and her friends to extreme levels; has tried to isolate her from her friends and has arguably succeeded given Aria inexplicably seems to feel he's the one she should lean on in regards to having killed somone, regarless of the fact one of her best friends has been through the same thing and has reached out for her; he has manipulated her emmotionaly consistenly, I could go on and on and on and on. The dude, a grown man, started a relationship with 16 year old in order to write a novel about her dead teenager friend who he may or may not have slept with and only came clean after Aria caught him. And she was so terrified she went to hide in the woods and basically rewatch that episode they were in Ezra's cabin and he hid the chic pees or whatever that was and tell me they're not in an abusive relationship.

 

Now, with all that said, I don't watch TV looking for life lessons or role models and I don't think people should either. I also don't believe people should restrict their shipping in any way. If you got the feels, by all means: ship it! Yes, the toxic and abusive aspects of those relationships gross me out, but  the reason I'm so hyper aware of those aspects is none other than the fact that both couples bore me to tears given the writers seem more concerned romanticizing those aspects than actually making them entertaining.

 

There's a reason I'm with those who say they love characters like Alison, Jenna, creepy milk drinking Ian, Wilden, Mona, and loathe Ezra and Toby. Watching the later is like watching paint dry for me with a bunch of abusive behavior to make the experience unsavory while the former actually makes good television. That's all very subjetive, I'm perfectly aware, and I'm not gonna tell you to stop shipping your ship, but you may want to inform yourself a little more on those issues and open your eyes to what you're actually shipping.

Edited July 12, 2014 by cuddlingcrowley

[FAU]

 

Do you guys even know what an abusive relationship is? Spoby and Ezria are not abusive relationships, or even borderline abusive relationships. I don't like Ezria or support it in any way, but they're not abusive...

 

Yes it is, not all abuse is physical, it can be emotional or even psychological.

[superman1204]

To state PLL is excessive in it's depiction of women who love women not only seems without basis to me but is a discussion I really feel uncomfortable with.  It reminds me of my Mom complaining there are so many gay men on this show when I watched United States of Tara with her. 

I really don't think anyone is saying that there are too many lesbian and bisexual women on PLL or that social groups consisting in large part of lesbian and bisexual women don't existed in real life.  The point some of us are trying to make is that, PLL had Emily come to terms with her own sexuality and then over the next two years, she realized that she was already in contact with many other women who were coming out themselves.  In reality, individuals who are LGBT and join/form groups and social circles that are in large part LGBT, generally only join these groups after they come to terms with their own sexuality (or at least have some inclination that they are not straight) instead of already being part of these groups.  Are there exceptions, of course, but I don't see the harm in pointing out that at least that part of PLL's depict of lesbian and bisexual women is an exception not the norm.

[dohe]

I really don't think anyone is saying that there are too many lesbian and bisexual women on PLL or that social groups consisting in large part of lesbian and bisexual women don't existed in real life.  The point some of us are trying to make is that, PLL had Emily come to terms with her own sexuality and then over the next two years, she realized that she was already in contact with many other women who were coming out themselves.  In reality, individuals who are LGBT and join/form groups and social circles that are in large part LGBT, generally only join these groups after they come to terms with their own sexuality (or at least have some inclination that they are not straight) instead of already being part of these groups.  Are there exceptions, of course, but I don't see the harm in pointing out that at least that part of PLL's depict of lesbian and bisexual women is an exception not the norm.

I am not following this train of thought at all.  Each person's journey is different.  Emily and Allison had a one-sided, sort of unrequited romance.  It now appears Allison may have had some deeper feelings.*  Allison apparently died.  Emily feel in love with a girl new to school in Maya.  Paige, knowing Emily was out, started a romance with Emily.  Later Samira, a girl from another school, fell for Emily again knowing Emily was out.  So lets break that down.

 

Allison toying with Emily from before beginning of the show.

Maya is the new student who Emily meets at the beginning of the show and ultimately is the reason Emily comes out.

Paige is the student who starts a romance with an already out Emily.

Samira is the student from another school who starts a romance with an already out Emily.

 

Of those last three, only in Paige's case does it turn out she already had feelings for Emily before the series began and Emily's awareness of her is almost nonexistent.  We find this out in flashback. It also turns out a girl named Shana, who Emily did not know before the show's beginning, was a lesbian and she dated Paige.  But Shana is, in the bigger picture, a very minor character whose design seems more as a prop for Aria to further examine the connection with Jenna (and pain she has caused Jenna). 

 

On Shameless, Ian falls for his male boss, has a romance with a much older man who turns out be his sister's boyfriend's father, and falls for his best friend's brother.  That is 4 gay male characters.  They are all connected with Ian just as the Sapphic characters on PLL all come down to some sort of connection with Emily - typically in that they fall for Emily. 

 

I will stick with what I said before.  If we are going to question interconnectedness being improbable, that is cool.  But it should concern the interconnectedness of all of the characters.  It should not just be a call out on the lesbians and bisexual women.  It is one thing to discuss a broad improbability.  It is another to specificy a minority within the broad picture for calling out for improbability.

 

It really does look like a why are there so many women loving women on the show angle.  One of the 4 main characters is Emily.  She is a lesbian.  Therefore her romantic stories are told (hence Paige, Maya, Samira).  And, as with the family, friends, and lovers of the other characters, there is an interconnectedness to the bigger mysteries for those characters.  The need to specify the women loving women for special consideration in terms of the interconnectedness improbability is offputting at best. 

 

*Of course she may also be exaggerating those feelings as to continue a manipulation of Emily.

Edited July 12, 2014 by dohe

[lorikauai]

Yes, Emily coming out felt so organic and true whereas by comparison with Jenna and Ali it was not told as well and felt awkward. It was never clear whether they were actually lesbian or bisexual or if it was just manipulation. We had no real sense that Jenna actually cared about Shana until we saw her broken in this episode.

And yes there is no question that Ezra was abusive and that Toby was at least a terrible boyfriend. I also think Ali is horrible for Emily. Regardless I still ship Spoby in their good moments. Heck I ship Spencer with everyone.

[Mabinogia]

Heck I ship Spencer with everyone.

Sadly for me, I ship Spencer with everyone BUT Toby! Hell, I ship her with Ezra before Toby...if there was a gun to my head and I had to pick between only those two. I wanted to ship Spencer and Toby in the beginning when I didn't realize just how horrible the actor was in the role, but I can't forgive him for sucking all life out of scene's Spencer is in. Nope, that is unforgivable to me. I like Andrew. Andrew is just a nice, goofy guy rather than some brooding, chisled ab-ed tourtured soul with no actual personality. (Sorry Toby lovers, I just loathe him. I can't help it. To each their own lol)

[cuddlingcrowley]

Yes, Emily coming out felt so organic and true whereas by comparison with Jenna and Ali it was not told as well and felt awkward. It was never clear whether they were actually lesbian or bisexual or if it was just manipulation. We had no real sense that Jenna actually cared about Shana until we saw her broken in this episode.

 

 

It's funny because while I like Emily's coming out story fine, I love how matter-of-fact the show has been about Jenna and Ali liking girls too and I'm horribly fond of the note of ambiguity there as well. 

 

Hell, I ship her with Ezra before Toby...if there was a gun to my head and I had to pick between only those two.

 

 

I'm dying of laughter because that makes no sense given I think Ezra is a worst person than Toby but I'm right there with you! There's just something so hilarious about the scenes between Ezra and Spencer. I wish we could see them together in one of those AU episodes (how much do I love the fact that's an actual real thing in PLL?).

 

I do seriously ship Spencer and Caleb. They have ridiculous chemistry and for a hot minute I thought the show was gonna go there. But I would only take if it was done without wrecking Hanna.

 

There's a rumoured time jump right? Can you imagine if it's the near future, the episode starts and Caleb and Spencer are together and there's no fuzz about that, they just are and Hanna has long moved on from him so there's no drama or awkwardness at all? I would kill for that scenario, you don't understand, and I don't even like Caleb (or maybe just Haleb). And since it's my dream, Hanna is with Emily and Aria is single but getting her country singer career started. There. It would be like the Harry Potter epilogue but good.

Edited July 12, 2014 by cuddlingcrowley

[Crim]

I wouldn't ship Spencer with Ezra, but I'd ship her with Ali. That Radley dance scene was pretty good. They are my 2 favorite characters, so it makes sense to ship them, right? Right? Oh well, Emily/Ashley is still the best crackship.

 

I love how matter-of-fact the show has been about Jenna and Ali liking girls too and I'm horribly fond of the note of ambiguity there as well.

And there is ambiguity when it comes to Mona too. If her obsession with Ali and Hanna-as-Ali is revealed as a stalker-with-a-crush I would not be surprised one bit. (I'd cheer!)

 

That being said, I hope Jenna Thing and Jenna Not!Twin are an Ali/CeCe Weird Sisters relationship and not another romance, ambiguous or not. Jenna/Toby was enough quasi-incest for me from those characters, especially on a show that also had actual incest in Jason/Melissa.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Crim

[Sakura12]

I ship Ezra/desserts!

 

I agree, Ezra and Toby are boring as fuck (Toby might as well be played by a cardboard cut out and Ezzzzra puts me to sleep) so I tend to only see flaws in them, so when they have them do really crappy things to their supposed loves it makes me hate them even more. Then the hate grows when they are instantly forgiven and get laid. 

 

While people like Jenna, Mona and Alison make for some entertaining television because I never know what they are up too. So it's not that I like them because they are such good people, I love them because they aren't. Yes, they can shows us things to make us feel bad for them, but they have never shied away from them being shady bitches. I was worried they were going to do that with Alison but so far they have kept a little of the bitch still in her. No one has completely forgiven any of them. 

 

I guess that just shows that the guys are just there for shippers to squee over and nothing else, which is why I find them so boring and so wrong for the girls. I like the Liars and want them to find better lovers. If shippers would stop getting so obsessively passionate about one ship, we could probably have a lot more interesting relationships develop. But sadly, that will never happen on any show if this trend continues. 

Edited July 12, 2014 by Sakura12

[mercfan3]

That is definitely true too. The only time Ezra was remotely interesting was when he had his "he's a bad guy" storyline. Until then..boring as fuck is the best description. And personality wise he comes off as desperate wimp. 

 

Toby is wooden and boring. Personality wise, he comes off as arrogant prick. 

 

So we've got boring, creepy, assholes that have done horrible things to the main characters..that's why I dislike them. 

[Sakura12]

When they revealed EzrA, my first thought was, before the A reveal Ezra's a pathetic loser with no life, after the A reveal, Ezra's a pathetic loser with no life. Then after the he's writing a book reveal, Ezra's a pathetic loser with no life and no morals. 

Edited July 12, 2014 by Sakura12

[dohe]

I wish somebody big would call out Marlene King and ABC Family on the Ezra/Aria storyline. 

[Crim]

Sadly, that voice of reason would be drowned by thousands of tween fangirls squeeing. Audience rates are a number's game, after all.

 

As tired as the "still a better story than Twilight" phrase is, there is a lesson in that: no relationship is too toxic for vast numbers of people who eat that shit on bread crumbs and write even crappier fan fiction for it.

 

I guess that just shows that the guys are just there for shippers to squee over and nothing else, which is why I find them so boring and so wrong for the girls.

It's not any better when the show tries to give them story lines though. Most glaring case in point: Caleb's daddy issues.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Crim

[mercfan3]

But at least Caleb is part of the plot. And maybe that's why i like him too. You could see him as a potential ally for the liars even if he wasn't dating Hanna. I enjoy his friendship with all of the girls..and he has gotten moments with each of that to build on their relationship. He's part of the story. And I don't mind if he gets a side story. Although, it could be a little less cliche than daddy issues. 

 

With Ezra, and Toby, and Paige..it's like..every once in a while they'll get a side story its just pointless because all they are good for is the shippers. 

[bettername2come]

Although, it could be a little less cliche than daddy issues.

 

Well, now he's getting "Ghosts tried to kill me and I might be crazy." It's different.

Edited July 14, 2014 by bettername2come

[J2theK]

About the unhealthy relationships.  Every single relationship in the show is unhealthy.

 

And the number one unhealthy relationship is Ali with the four girls! 

 

I can't believe Em is falling for Ali's crap.  Lost a lot of respect for her - she seemed like the sensible one of them all.

 

The only good person on the show is Toby.  Would've said Ezra before the end of last season (they should've stuck with him being with A.  Except that wouldn't have worked at all - it would've totally destroyed Aria.).  All the girls are wack.  And Ali deserves everything that Mona, er A, can dish out.  (Well maybe not the explosions but everything prior to season 3 and a half.).

Edited July 14, 2014 by J2theK

[superman1204]

About the unhealthy relationships.  Every single relationship in the show is unhealthy.

 

And the number one unhealthy relationship is Ali with the four girls! 

 

I can't believe Em is falling for Ali's crap.  Lost a lot of respect for her - she seemed like the sensible one of them all.

 

The only good person on the show is Toby.  Would've said Ezra before the end of last season (they should've stuck with him being with A.  Except that wouldn't have worked at all - it would've totally destroyed Aria.).  All the girls are wack.  And Ali deserves everything that Mona, er A, can dish out.  (Well maybe not the explosions but everything prior to season 3 and a half.).

What about Caleb and Hanna?  They both help with the others issues.  Hanna's self esteem improved greatly when they were together.  They have broken up twice but that was really beyond their control.  Not much they could do about A and Ravenswood's ghost/curse/thing.  I think their biggest fault is that they can be boring sometimes (and Caleb's attempt at facial hair, that was just terrible) but that's far from making them an unhealthy relationship.

 

Emily and Paige are actually not that bad either.  Yes Paige held Emily's head underwater and I forget if we ever saw an official apology for that, but based on Paige's emotional turmoil over being gay, I think it's clear she regrets everything that happened between Emily and her before she came out.  Also Paige can be controlling but Emily actually puts her foot down when she is out of line.  People shouldn't stay in abusive relationships but if your significant other is trying to improve and you stand up for yourself, I see no reason why a relationship can't be healthy.

 

Lastly if we are considering friendships, the Liars' (not including Ali) relationships with each other are extremely healthy.  That maybe in part because of the constant threat of A but still.  The girls are always their for each other.  There is no back stabbing or gossiping.  They are a better support system then any of the girls' families (with the exception of Ashley Marin, woman does good, all things considered).  I honestly can't imagine a healthier relationship than that.

Edited July 15, 2014 by superman1204

[J2theK]

What about Caleb and Hanna?  They both help with the others issues.  Hanna's self esteem improved greatly when they were together.  They have broken up twice but that was really beyond their control.  Not much they could do about A and Ravenswood's ghost/curse/thing.  I think their biggest fault is that they can be boring sometimes (and Caleb's attempt at facial hair, that was just terrible) but that's far from making them an unhealthy relationship.

 

Emily and Paige are actually not that bad either.  Yes Paige held Emily's head underwater and I forget if we ever saw an official apology for that, but based on Paige's emotional turmoil over being gay, I think it clear she regrets everything that happened between Emily and her before she came out.  Also Paige can be controlling but Emily actually puts her foot down when she is out of line.  People shouldn't stay in abusive relationships but if your significant other is trying to improve and you stand up for yourself, I see no reason why a relationship can't be healthy.

 

Lastly if we are considering friendship, the Liars' (not including Ali) relationships with each other are extremely healthy.  That maybe in part because of the constant threat of A but still.  The girls are always their for each other.  There is no back stabbing or gossiping.  They are a better support system then any of the girls' families (with the exception of Ashley Marin, woman does good, all things considered).  I honestly can't imagine a healthier relationship than that.

 

Ok you're right, I forgot about  Caleb.  He's a good guy.  And  his and Hannah's relationship is healthy.

 

Emily and Paige, ok as well.

 

Hanna's  mom, maybe.  But she still slept with the  cop to get her daughter out of trouble, that's kind of messed up.

 

I guess my motivation for making the post was people saying Toby and Spencer's relationship was unhealthy or bad.  I don't think so.  I think Toby is normal to Spencer's... not quite normal.  Spencer made it with two of her sisters boyfriends/fiancé - that's messed up.

 

Spencer basically kidnapped Malcolm and made Aria freak out.  Was that any worse than what Toby did?  Toby was trying to help protect Spencer.  Spencer was trying to protect the girls.

[scarletregina]

There's no way anyone will convince me that trying to drown your girlfriend doesn't qualify you as an abuser. I don't care how much this show tries to redeem Paige, that's all I see when I look at her.

 

Of course, pretty much everyone on this show is abusive in one way or another. It's sort of like on the Vampire Diaries, all of the characters are horrible people, so you root for the least horrible or the most entertaining.

[KatWay]

Well, Emily wasn't Paige's girlfriend during the drowning thing yet, at least. At that point she was Paige's swim rival/the girl she had conflicting feelings for. I agree it was bad, but I thought she showed plenty of remorse and was obviously in a very bad place at the time. Honestly, comparatively I find Paige more inoffensive. Caleb and Paige are probably my favourite PLL love interests, though I also have no real problem with Toby or Ezra. This entire show consists of nothing but fucked up relationships (romantic, parental, sibling,...), with maybe the exception of the friendship between the main four. I just roll with it. Actually, I think all of the main girls are too screwed up to have normal relationships anyways. Except maybe Hanna.

 

I also kind of prefer it when the girls are just dating their guys without too much love triangle angst, will they/won't they, or new people being randomly introduced for them...seriously, not even the main guys/girls are that fleshed out really, if the writers aren't all that interested in them, I don't see the point in more ciphers being introduced. Like, what is the point of Travis? He has zero personality except for generic nice guy. Hanna could have easily mourned Caleb etc. without a new love interest but heaven forbid any of the girls are single for more than an episode.

[FAU]

 

It's sort of like on the Vampire Diaries, all of the characters are horrible people, so you root for the least horrible or the most entertaining.

 

Except in that series, the writers made sure to ruin every single good aspect of that show.

[ban1o]

 

 

Of course, pretty much everyone on this show is abusive in one way or another. It's sort of like on the Vampire Diaries, all of the characters are horrible people, so you root for the least horrible or the most entertaining.

The only character on TVD I can condone is Matt. All the other characters are horrible people. I especially find the relationship of Damon/Elena to be extremely abusive. (You won't sleep with me, I'll kill your brother lol)