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"Where do you see yourself in 20 years?": Endeavor vs. Inspector Morse

yeswedo

By yeswedo
in Endeavour [V]

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Captanne

Captanne

Interestingly enough, John Thaw represented the Morse the author had in mind.  Colin Dexter adored Thaw in the roll of Morse so much that it took hell and high water to get him to agree to make the Endeavour movie let alone an entire series.  

 

"A lot of people connected with Morse didn't want anyone coming along to say we will try to outdo dear old John," Dexter revealed. "I said I'm not ever going to allow that, full stop."

So this is because John Thaw was such a good Morse that nobody can compete? That's exactly it. Thaw was the definitive Morse. Grumpy, crossword-fixated, drunk, slightly misogynistic, pedantic about grammar.

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/shortcuts/2014/mar/25/no-one-else-play-inspector-morse-colin-dexter-john-thaw

 

So, the Morse you find "old and unattractive" is the exact way the author wrote and created Morse.  

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Captanne

Captanne

(edited)

I think Dexter's point was that Morse had a charisma and an appeal younger women found interesting.  I mean, it is what it is.  It's what Dexter gave us.  He has the same effect in the books.  When it's two consenting adults, I don't find it bothersome.  If he came on to children or something (intentionally or not), that would be a totally different matter.  But, the character has a sexual allure that younger women find attractive.

 

It's sort of like saying, "I love Jeremy Brett as Holmes but he's so thin and mean to Watson" -- well, that really has nothing to do with Jeremy Brett.  It's who Doyle gave us as a character.  It's Brett playing who Holmes is -- to an absolute "t".

 

The thing that's cool is that Shaun Evans beautifully gets across Morse's sex appeal.  It's something the character never loses throughout his life.

Edited by Captanne
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LeGrandElephant

LeGrandElephant

(edited)

I think Dexter's point was that Morse had a charisma and an appeal younger women found interesting. I mean, it is what it is. It's what Dexter gave us. He has the same effect in the books. When it's two consenting adults, I don't find it bothersome. If he came on to childrenp or something (intentionally or not), that would be a totally different matter. But, the character has a sexual allure that younger women find attractive.

It's sort of like saying, "I love Jeremy Brett as Holmes but he's so thin and mean to Watson" -- well, that really has nothing to do with Jeremy Brett. It's who Doyle gave us as a character. It's Brett playing who Holmes is -- to an absolute "t".

The thing that's cool is that Shaun Evans beautifully gets across Morse's sex appeal. It's something the character never loses throughout his life.

I didn't mean to imply I was complaining about the actor. It's the writing I find implausible and annoying. I don't see anything alluring about him so having women constantly act that way doesn't make me think consenting adults, it makes me think writers propping up a main character in an unbelievable way. Edited by LeGrandElephant
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LeGrandElephant

LeGrandElephant

(edited)

Yes, that's true. In the couple I've seen, it wasn't really clear why they were flirting with him. I mean, it could have been that they vaguely wanted him to like them for ulterior reasons, but it was never spelled out that they were only flirting with him for that reason and not that they actually were attracted to him. 

 

I realize that Inspector Morse came first and was closer to the author's vision, but that doesn't mean I have to like the author's original vision. I, personally, saw Inspector Lewis and Endeavor first, and I think the main characters in both of those are more appealing. They are easier to root for. Endeavor might be knowledgeable about grammar and random stuff but I don't remember him going around correcting everyone unless it was to call attention to something important to solve a case, and he's pretty put upon as a young upstart anyway so any time he sticks up for himself works well from the audience point of view. On the other hand Inspector Morse has authority and is going around correcting everyone's grammar in a classist way, and blatantly insulting Lewis when he hasn't done anything wrong. If I had seen Inspector Morse first, I don't think I would have kept watching it. 

 

And, since you mentioned it, I actually do think Sherlock Holmes is kind of a jerk (in many iterations - they vary a lot, so I can't say all). The only one I really like is the one in the book The Beekeeper's Apprentice, which I gather is one of the ones that is farther away from the original vision of the character. 

Edited by LeGrandElephant
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LeGrandElephant

LeGrandElephant

(edited)

I watched some more Inspector Morse episodes recently, but I think I'm mostly watching them for Lewis. I loved the episode where Morse wanted him to do something illegal to get the guy and Lewis refused to be part of it and went home. I find it completely impossible to view sweet and earnest young Morse from this show as the same person as rude and crotchety old Morse from that show. 

Edited by LeGrandElephant
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atlantaloves

atlantaloves

That's a wonderful Blog...thank you so much. I adore the Endeavour series....all the characters, right down to their silly last names. Inspector Thursday is such a sweetie pie. I am rewatching the entire series for the 3rd time, it is so wonderful. He is so lovely.

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AnnieBeez

AnnieBeez

I find "Old" Morse to be clingy and pathetic. I'd seen a few every so often and didn't really care for him. I tried to start at the beginning of the series--nope. Still clingy and pathetic. He just latches on to any woman--no matter how inappropriate. 

I'm enjoying Endeavour though. 

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SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

(edited)

Funny, I don't see him "latching on" to women so much as being an healthy, heterosexual, unmarried male of a certain age who likes female companionship but also, to an extent, "does his duty"** taking women to concerts and out for meals, not actually looking for a partner (and not attracted to women who want a sturdy dependable husband to deal with manly things, much less a ring), but rather aware that he "should" have some sort of social life outside of work and Lewis.  

He seemed careful to not engage with women under "false pretenses" that these relationships would lead to cohabitation (after all these years of single batchelorhood).  I do think that occasionally he's terrified of ending up all alone in some old folks home ... but perish that thought.  He's attracted to women, even sometimes a bit besotted, but "in love" ... I don't think so, not really.  YMMV. 

 

** perhaps to head off any would-be matchmakers? 

 

eta:  Morse reminds me of my father who was also much like Harry Haller, the main character in Hesse's Steppenwolf ... a man both drawn to a well-kept home and a good meal (domesticity) but also rather repelled and fightened by the such complacency.  Endeavor was never going to grow up to be Thursday with his devoted wife and 2 children ,,, why?  dunno.  Part of his chemistry, I guess, and an already palpable difficulty in making full happy commitment. 

Edited by SusanSunflower
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SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

I wanted to add that I read my first Colin Dexter / Morse book maybe 6 months ago, and probably will not read more.  I found that Morse much more sexist and more along the "too clever by half" mold ... Thaw's Morse (like Suchet's Poirot)  seems to have left some of his more disagreeable qualities behind (I was checking GoodReads).  We saw in earlier episodes that he was often short tempered, rude and even belittling of Lewis until he got over himself (or the writers responded to audience feedback that messing with Kevin Whatley was not.acceptable).  
 

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atlantaloves

atlantaloves

I adore both the Morse characters, and can not wait for the new season of Endeavor to begin Sunday. He just nails Morse, and for me, adorable, but of course, unattainable. Ahhhhhhhhh, those English men! I find Endeavor's capers better written than some of the old Morse cases, but my memory may be failing me, I need to grab a pint and listen to some opera and get my head straight. 

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SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

(edited)

One of the things that keeps startling me this season (5) is how time/date stamped each episode is .... currently at episode 3, Passenger, we're clearly at 1968 shortly after RFK's assassination  Looking into something else (more Morse related) I discovered that "Last Bus to Woodstock", the first book, was written in 1972 (thought was not the first Morse/Thaw Episode (which was "Dead of Jericho produced 1987). 

My impression of Morse was that in the course of the early episodes (which may not correspond to the books) he was "call out" for his drinking and general funk and so had to "keep up appearances" and some of his (was I projecting?) concern about Lewis (would he offer unflattering appraisals of Morse's character) ... the trials of a middle-aged fairly well controlled alcoholic detective working out his days in hope of dying "in the saddle" rather than in a care home.  

Regardless, from the current episode I'd guessimate that Endeavor has about 15-20 years to become (metamorphasize into) Morse ... who currently seems to me more than 15 years older than Endeavor ...(not talking about body changes of still "skinny" Endeavor to middle-aged "thick" Morse)  anyone else?  thoughts?    

 

TPTB have suggested that a lot of changes to Endeavor's constellation of work/personal relations undergo upheaval by season's end. 
 

Edited by SusanSunflower
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Dessert

Dessert

I haven’t seen many Morse episodes, but John Thaw in Morse looks decades older than Shaun Evans in Endeavour. No offense meant to John Thaw’s memory. He was great.

I find Endeavour to be one of the most poignant depictions I’ve seen of a young man’s gradual slide into the alcoholism that will kill him. His colleagues occasionally comment on his drinking, but it’s presented as a given without too much fanfare. At this point, he still has hope for happiness, but we know his fate. It’s heartbreaking.

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SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

I always suspected that Morse's worst drinking days were in the decade before the TV series (although his controlled-drinking was wobbly in the early years),  He had made the decision, more or less, not to go down the toilet, being forced to resign.  Lewis might tolerate a pint (rarely two) and so kept his work-hour drinking from getting out of hand (I suspect he often had previous "lost afternoons" after a first pint.  Similarly, his dating appeared more dutiful than eagerly sociable -- designed to avoid evenings at home tediously not-drinking-alone and/or to-excess.  Coping mechanisms.   [I disliked the Morse in the books so only read a couple -- rather unsuitable "god's gift" for modern audiences -- while I certainly understood by women of a certain age were drawn to Thaw's Morse -- standing up well to the competition with no story of my divorce to tell.   John Thaw died at age 60, after 15 years of the series, making him and Morse rather 45-ish for reference.   However, it probably should be mentioned that "older generations" had different life-expectancy, older life/retirement/quality of life expectations -- not uncommon for people to die before or just after retirement, pensions barely touched.  Sea change in attitudes and expectations with the boomers who followed. 

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Dessert

Dessert

They have come up with better treatments for certain illnesses, but life expectancy has always been somewhat determined by genetics and luck. My ancestors, going back at least as far as the early 20th and late 19th centuries, tended to live into their upper 80s, 90s, and even past 100.

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deirdra

deirdra

I was in my early 30s when Inspector Morse first aired and found John Thaw to be very intriguing and sexy.  When I watched the pilot episode of Endeavour a few years back, I thought to myself - this scrawny guy is no John Thaw and didn't watch again until season 5, but now find Shaun to be very intriguing and cute.  So I went back and started watching from the beginning (full episodes on DVD from the library). Shaun looked even scrawnier with more wrinkles in the first season after the pilot, but less scrawny and therefore less wrinkled in Season 2 and beyond.  Now I need to go back and watch Inspector Morse from the beginning. 

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atlantaloves

atlantaloves

Watching all these Morse shows again is always worth your time. Go for it Deirda!  I really love Endeavor, if only for the production value. (and, I think Shaun is a total cutie pie). Wow, Thaw was only 60 when he died, Lord, that man must have LIVED! 

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SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

(edited)

So, what is it with Morse that beautiful women aren't really  interested in him "like that" and chose to break off with him without a good-bye (at least the French photographer) leaving him wiht a picture of himself .... as she goes gallivanting off to Vietnam and adventure / career in war photography.    I can understand that a "policeman" is not the most exciting profession (like medicine, there a lot that can't be talked about and even uncensored most of what might be worth talking about is depressing as hell) ... particularly a policeman whose immediate goals are saving up for a flat and riding out the conversion / merger of Cowley into Thames Valley or whatever. ... 

Morse is pretty enough, well mannered and apparently more than adequate in the bedroom (laughs are a good sign), but its as if ALL the women he meets aren't ready to settle down and assume he's not interested as well (and I've seen little to indicate that "getting married" is as yet a looming "milestone" ... Still I wonder if it has ever occured to him that he might possibly consider something more ambitious than being Detective ... not that there's anything wrong with that, more just a concern of having settled on a life course a bit early.  

Early days, Thursday and his wife and cozy and affectionate home likely seemed perfection .... sadly things change. 

(oh, Thaw died barely more than a year after being diagnosed with esophageal cancer for which he received chemo with initially fabulous results (contracts were signed) but it returned about 12-13 month later and he died -- I don't know how far he pursued surgical treament, if at all, very life-altering, likely career ending.  Years of heavy drinking -- which he had quit -- and smoking likely contributed -- from memory of wikilpedia ) 

eta:  Joan suggested Morse come up for some post-dump "chat"  .... Is Morse perceived at "that kind of oh-so-sensitive guy" that he's up for platonic commiseration ... pound the pillow and weep about being misunderstood? 

Edited by SusanSunflower
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Dessert

Dessert

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

eta:  Joan suggested Morse come up for some post-dump "chat"  .... Is Morse perceived at "that kind of oh-so-sensitive guy" that he's up for platonic commiseration ... pound the pillow and weep about being misunderstood? 

I’m confused by that scene. Some viewers on Twitter are absolutely convinced that Joan was coming on to him and that he turned her down (I think he has to turn her down at least once to not seem too pathetic!). I read it that way, too, at first, but I can sort of  see it as an invitation for a chat. His response could be seen as “I’m not a eunuch and I’m not your pal. What I need from a woman right now doesn’t involve coffee”.

I’m still leaning towards the first impression. Joan seemed a little shy and nervous when she was asking and when he turned her down. I’m not quite old enough to know whether, in the sixties, asking someone up for coffee was the same code for sex as it is now. I do know that asking a single man, especially one who has been drinking, up to your apartment at night could be interpreted that way.

They’re both bumbling and awkward to say the least. That Jane Austen quote. Yikes! What was she thinking? Teasing a man whose marriage proposal she turned down, about becoming a good marriage prospect, was cringeworthy. I don’t think she meant it to be. Why did he suddenly kiss her on the cheek? He’s never done that before. Was it just a plot device so that he could smell her perfume and solve the crime? Strange!

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SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

I thought she was inviting him up for some pity sex ... but he was having none of that and didn't trust her not to "change her mind" ... it's not like she (and her friends) aren't into casual sex ... she acted as if enough water had passed under the bridge ...  not for Morse (wise imho) 

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Enigma X

Enigma X

One issue that I had with (older) Morse that I don't have with (younger) Endeavour is that I found Morse to be very judgmental when it came to women's physical appearances. Sometimes he was just rude. I remember watching some of the older episodes thinking that physically he was no great catch. I am not saying he was ugly just average. These women he was so critical of were also average. I get you like what you like, but sometimes Morse went overboard.

I find Endeavour (Evans) to be very attractive but would say the same thing if he was written as Morse. He isn't.

I liked Morse but not that trait.

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SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

(edited)

It was more pronounced in the books I think ... which I attributed to middle-aged male and female fantasies about the availability of casual sex to the well-over 40 crowd with a dose of James Bond, single man about town being catnip for women of a certain age.  Rather like the "Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" male protagonist (Mikael, investigative journalist)  who is inexplicably attractive to all sorts of women of various ages and wealth leading to some prolonged soft-porn depictions of his sexual encounters.  Again a gentleman and great in bed.  We can all dream, she said affirmatively.  Still, I only read the one Dragon Tattoo (which had a neat little mystery at its core) and laughed out loud more than once at the unlikelihood of Mikael's Scandinavian prowess and Lislbeths physical strength and cunning and the overall taste of "international best seller" readers.  (Lisbeth's vein of the story was also highly-unlikely BDSM / kiddy torture not-so-soft porn, not that there's anything wrong with that.)

 

eta:  As I recall Mikael Blomqvist is not a cad, although his semi-domestic partner might object some to sharing him. 

Edited by SusanSunflower
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