Dani-Ellie

I'd quibble with that. (Not necessarily with the person because I would just not read it rather than argue about it.) It's not basically the same thing, because Padme/Anakin (or Emma/Hook or Snow/Charming or any other combination of Character X and Character Y) are characters. Natalie/Hayden (or any other actor/actor) are not. I like reading the further adventures of the characters on the show/in the movie. I'm uncomfortable reading the fictional adventures of the real people who play those characters. I'm uncomfortable with tabloids, too, for the same reason as above. I don't know, I guess I just think about how I would feel if I ever found out someone was writing a story that had me hooking up with a married coworker (in the case of Colin/Jen, at any rate). That's ... problematic on so very many levels. And I get that the people who write it can say, "Well, obviously this isn't real, I'm just playing, here," but why not just keep it about the characters, then? Or write an original story based on the RPF idea and change the names to make it Pretend Actor X and Pretend Actor Y working on Random Genre Show Z?

This. RPF squicks me out simply because there are RP involved, heh. Do whatever the hell you wish to fictional characters; they don't have real lives beyond the words on the page or the flicker of the movie/TV screen. But real people have real families and real lives and real identities and real senses of self. Real people have to deal with the fallout of this imagining of their personal lives in a way that fictional characters do not. I ship Captain Swan. I do not ship Colin/Jen. Because they both have their own real lives that are, frankly, none of my damn business. I know that I personally would not want to read a story about me and a coworker hooking up/whatever or anything else that even dares to imagine how I live my life. If I ever found anything like that (not that I would but let's just say for argument's sake), I'm pretty sure I would feel ... violated, in a way.

They have. I've seen the occasional Jen/Lana story pop up at ff.net (which, RPF is supposed to be against ff.net's policies).

Oh, absolutely, but there's still the question of why they chose to use the time they had with her the way they did. Honestly, in 4x02, why have Snow get dragged out of the apartment a week after giving birth? Why not have her stuck at home with little Neal and worried about what was going on with Emma, freaking out because her daughter is trapped somewhere and she can't go help? It wouldn't have had to be any more screen time for Snow than she ended up having, and Ginny wouldn't have had to leave the set for the loft if they'd just left Snow there and made her part of the story rather than giving her a completely separate one. There are other questionable choices. Like, the "That's because you forgot about us" scene. Why? Why have Snow say that rather than try to suss out why Emma felt New York was home? Or maybe have Snow put it gently to her that sometimes home isn't a place and let her think on that. I'm really not asking for much. I'm just asking for something.

I remember that, like heaven forbid Emma want to look nice and feel pretty on a first date that actually matters to her. (Because I remember people bringing up the dress she wore in the pilot for her "date" with Bail-Jumper Ryan as Emma-date-wear, and it's like, if y'all can't understand that her "date" with Ryan wasn't a real date as far as she was concerned because she was on a job, then I can't help you.) This is the kind of stuff that would be amazing. And this is the kind of stuff that they'd have time for if they didn't feel the need to blow through every single plot at lightning speed. Because as important as plot it, the human drama is just as important. It's the relationships among the characters that give the plot weight. Because look, I hate to keep harping on Emma/Snow, but this is exactly the problem that happens when the relationships aren't given their due. We have a mother who's allowed no reaction to her daughter almost dying. That's not okay. It's not realistic. It took me right out of the scene because I did not believe for one second that Snow wouldn't have said anything to Emma. But that's what we're shown, and it irritates the crap out of me because then I have to go imagine/write my own version of something we should have seen in the first place. It's ridiculous how much we have to imagine, and it's so frustrating because this show could be so. damn. good if it would just balance things better.

I'm so sorry, Alex. I'll be thinking of you!

This is, admittedly, my big problem. If this were all leading somewhere, I would be all for it. If I had any faith that there would be any kind of parent/adult child blowout over it, I would be thrilled to pieces. Because yes, please, give me the angst. I love the angst. Let's see the two of them have it out. But it's not leading to that. It's never going to lead to that. Because the two guys in charging of the writing of the show see no reason why a hug-and-make-up shouldn't fix what the story has wrought. And I'm wondering, what the hell is the point? If you don't care about the relationship between these two characters, why -- pardon my language -- fuck with them at all? Why not just do with Emma and Snow what they've done with Emma and David? Or, since the problems are plot points more than anything, why not split the new-parent-insensitivity between David and Snow so that Snow's not always the one sticking her foot in her mouth? Not that I really want to see Emma having a seemingly strained relationship with both her parents but it wouldn't be so bad on Snow/Emma if it wasn't always Snow stepping in it with Emma/David looking pretty damn easygoing and strain-free. There would be an indication that both David and Snow are struggling to come to terms with "our baby girl is an adult now" instead of David rolling with the punches and Snow digging her heels in all, "We missed everything and I can't possibly figure out what to do because we missed everything!" Resolution on this show sucks hardcore ass ( ... I'm apparently very swear-y tonight), but because there's no real onscreen resolution, the more they throw at Snow/Emma, the bigger the hole gets. I don't think they have the slightest grasp how deep they've dug this thing, and you're right, there is no way out of it without some work. But even something as simple as Emma and Snow having an easy-going conversation could make a world of difference. Let the two women talk, for Christ's sake. Show us some light moments between them. Or hell, if you don't want to waste precious screentime on what some fans consider one of the central relationships of the show, have them returning back to the apartment from a day out together. Just give us some indication that these two people spend time together that's not just because they live in the same apartment. But really, I should know better than to question this stuff. These are also the same people who wrote and filmed a scene with Snow going to Regina for mayor advice in an episode when Snow's daughter is freezing to death. And if there was any written or filmed reaction from Snow whatsoever to coming home to find her daughter half-frozen to death, they left it on the cutting room floor. Like, WTF, show? This is Family Relationships 101. A mother should be present in the story where her child is in mortal freakin' danger.

I agree with this, and I was not at all trying to say "Oh, Emma's had it so much worse." All I was saying is that when Snow/the show tries to be all, "Oh, I know how you feel because I was on the run once, too," it irritates the crap out of me because no, no she doesn't. She can't. Just as Emma can't possibly know how it feels to lose one's mother at ten, have one's father murdered as a teenager, and spend however many years dodging the wicked stepmother who wants to kill her.

And the really frustrating thing is, once upon a time (heh), Snow did it, too, as Mary Margaret. Somewhere within her, she knows how to do it, so her seemingly giving up now is just like, wtf? If having a real relationship with Emma was really important, one would think she'd try to adjust her expectations a touch instead of just being all, "Welp, this isn't what I want." Because look, they're never going to have a mommy/little girl relationship. Snow needs to find a way to deal with that because it's something that nobody can change. If Mary Margaret/Emma wasn't developed so wonderfully in the first season, I wonder if I'd be this angry now. But where it was developed so wonderfully and was in fact my favorite part about the show, it's so inordinately frustrating. I'm angry with the writers for turning Mary Margaret/Emma into this and I'm angry with Snow because I just want to shake her by the shoulders all, "omg Snow this is your daughter, here, and you do know how to connect with her because you've done it before so reach back into your Mary Margaret memory banks and use what worked for you before."

This. I've seen firsthand how a neglected child behaves. I've seen firsthand how a neglected child feels. I've had a two-year-old tell me he doesn't want to go home because he gets so much more attention from his aunt's fiance's family than he does his own mom. And I've seen what an amazing turnaround a neglected child can make when given love and support and stability and attention. But I've also seen how much work that turnaround is and how arduous the process is, for everyone involved. Slapping a hug and a three-word sentence on it and calling it a day until they can mine those issues for plot drama again is most definitely insulting. Realistically, every single hit the Snow/Emma relationship has taken would be hugely detrimental to it. Every single last one of them. And the problem with never showing the characters talking about it -- or only showing a line or two -- is that there's no way to know if the characters are really okay again after those hits. Even this most recent thing with Ingrid and Emma's magic, the only thing that was "addressed" was Emma's magic (with "please don't change"). Nothing that Ingrid brought up in that interrogation -- baby Neal, Emma's insecurity about her place within her own family, whether or not there was really another way to save Emma from the Curse, whether or not they saved Emma from the curse to save her or to save everyone -- was addressed at all. So, what, is it all true? Is it all false? How are all those issues resolved now? We don't know because we're not shown. And because Emma is the kind of character she is, it's easy (at least for me) to believe that she's simply swallowing it all back down again because this is better than anything she's ever had before. But that's not healthy and she shouldn't have to feel like that within her own family, which leads to more anger (at least on my part) the next time the writing throws a new issue at it.

Which, might I add, flies in the face of, "It's the truth. You were an orphan. It's my job to change that." So ... "I want another baby" and "I would happily build a treehouse and spend the rest of my days dodging poisoned arrows and Lost Boys as long as I had you (Charming) by my side" ... this is how you're going to change that, Snow? Really?? (I was going to throw snarky quotes in there but I used the real ones for emphasis.) Because that also flies in the face of "Get used to [someone putting you first]" and "We go home together. That is the only way. Do you understand?" Three broken promises from mother to daughter. Broken promises are probably par for the course for Emma but at the same time, that's exactly the kind of stuff that would make her pull away.

I'm not saying Snow's childhood was easy. All I'm saying is that the situations are not equivalent.

This is precisely the reason I think Emma keeps that box locked up in her office. Not so much because she doesn't want to deal with Snow turning it back on herself but because she knows the contents of the box -- and the stories behind the mementos -- would hurt her parents. I do think, like Yadda Yadda said upthread, that if they ever asked, she would show them, but I don't think she'd really offer it unbidden. I wonder if Snow's ever asked where the baby blanket is. She knows Emma has it because Mary Margaret saw it in Emma's box o' stuff. I wonder if either of them have ever asked if she has any pictures or anything from when she was little, just so they'd know what she looked like. Questions like that would show her that they're interested in who she was and how she got to be who she is, even if it wasn't with them. Snow's reaction at seeing Wee Emma on video was sweet and lovely but that's something Emma really only showed them for evidence purposes. I can't, either, and I don't think I'll ever forgive the writers for it. This. I think it's extremely hard for Snow to fathom just how hard Emma had it. She may liken it to her time on the run, and while being on the run I'm sure is difficult, it's not an entire lifetime of being ignored, neglected, and unwanted. It's not watching little girl after little girl get placed with a family while all those prospective parents skim her over. It's not being shuffled from place to place so frequently that I'm sure it just became easier to stop even trying to make friends. It's not having absolutely no one to turn to, no one to help you. Snow was only completely on her own what, one or two nights before Red found her in her barn? Emma spent far longer than that on the streets all by herself. Emma confirms in "Family Business" that the six months she spent with Ingrid was the longest she'd ever stayed anywhere. That's not even a full school year. School stability wouldn't be too bad if she was getting bounced from home to home in the same area of the same town, but even in the little town I grew up in, there were three elementary schools and you went to the one the district lines said you were closest to. People could move from one end of town to the other and their kids would have to go to a different school. (I ended up going to two of them and I never even moved, but that's a very long story, heh.) So Emma's bouncing around every six months or less means she would have had no consistent schooling, no consistent group of kids to grow up with, no consistent living situation, and no stability. It would have been rough. Very, very rough.

This. I'm not a parent but I know how my mom reacts to things. I passed out at work once and had to call her from the ER, mostly because my car was still at work because I rode to the hospital in an ambulance (Protip: don't pass out at work. It's embarrassing, for one, and inconvenient, for another.) The conversation was pretty much this: Me: Hi, Mom. I'm perfectly fine, but I passed out at work and am at the ER at [Local Hospital]. I just -- My mom: I'll be right there. *click* She flew out of her own work, telling her boss her daughter was in the ER, and was there in 20 minutes. I was pretty much all, "I really just needed help getting my car." She sat with me until the ER doc released me, then forbade me from driving and made my sister drive my car while asking if I was sure I didn't want to stay at the house that night instead of my apartment. Now mind you, I was a fully grown adult at this point, had been living on my own for several years and everything. My point is: all that drama over me being a little dehydrated. I can't imagine what she would do if I almost froze to death. This, too. Because look, Snow, this was hard for Emma, too. And eventually she's going to either want or need to talk about it, and she's going to need you to be there when she does, no matter how hard it's going to be for you. That's part of being a parent. Word. I know some Charming Family fans were upset that Hook was the one to go through her childhood mementos with her, but maybe she wanted to go through them with someone who wouldn't be hurt by them. Maybe she wanted to go through them with someone who would support her rather than someone who would think about how much they'd lost, too.

This is the exact problem. They threw all this drama at the relationship and then never showed any indication that it was repaired. I made a Tumblr post basically wishing the show would use the 80s-show convention of having a flippin' conversation so we know the characters are okay again. Obviously I don't need to see Snow behaving all Danny Tanner to Emma's DJ every episode, but let the two of them have a freakin' conversation, for crying out loud. Because maybe then it wouldn't seem like there's this big giant wedge in the relationship that just keeps getting bigger and bigger with every new plot issue. Like, Emma's conversation with Charming in the car on the way to the ice wall? It was maybe twenty seconds, but there was an ease to the two of them that we don't get to see with Snow and Emma because we don't get to see the two of them having conversations like that at all. Combine that with a complete lack of a reaction from Snow to Emma almost dying, and it's like, WTF? I know it's writer disinterest. I get it. But I also have to watch the result of the writer disinterest and that means that I'm annoyed with Snow because holy shit, Snow, this is your little girl. How about you try having a relationship with her? And if her whole problem was, as Emma said, Emma not letting her in, now that she's open, where's the effort on Snow's side? Where's the reciprocation? I'll admit that Snow handing Emma Neal before the Shattered Sight spell was lovely but I still don't see that ease between them that I see with her and Charming.

Twitter has its uses. I like being able to connect with not only online friends from all over but celebrities as well. (Silly as it is, getting a reply back from a celebrity is kinda thrilling.) But I also have the maturity to, y'know, not harass anyone, spew vitriol, or just be an asshat in general.

They were, but how long does it take to ask, "Are you okay?" We see Snow and Emma have a conversation before everyone splits off, where Emma's trying to cajole Snow into actually, y'know, speaking to Charming. Instead of snapping at her about inheriting her father's tunnel vision, if Snow didn't really want to talk about it, maybe she could have changed the subject and asked Emma if she was all right post-Cave. Even if Emma said, "Yeah, fine," at least the effort would have been put forth. This. And this is what bothers me the most. Snow gets upset because she doesn't know how to comfort her own daughter, but somewhere within her, she does. Because she has. Mary Margaret Blanchard was absolutely wonderful with Emma. She knew when to push and knew when to just let things stand. She just knew how to get past Emma's walls, and I remember wondering if that was because somewhere in the deep recesses of her subconscious memory, she recognized Emma as her daughter. If Snow could just get past "baby girl I never got to watch grow up" and see "Emma," I think she'd have an easier time with it, and I'm sorry, but that's on Snow to figure out how to do. She's never going to be able to watch Emma grow up, so she needs to find a way to deal with that if she ever wants to make things better. (I don't mean to sound harsh. I can't even imagine the loss Snow and Charming must feel every time they look at Emma and see the precious baby they only knew for five minutes, but nothing can rewind time. Charming seems to have done a decent job of being able to see "Emma" and not "baby girl I never got to watch grow up," so it can be done. If Snow really wants to have a relationship with Emma, she needs to find an approach that works with her. She's done it before as Mary Margaret, so I know she can do it, which is why I have less patience with her.)

This is the key for me. On the face of it, I actually quite liked Snow's secret, because yes, this is the kind of stuff that should come out of the Charming Family's situation. There should be anger, there should be feelings of injustice, because it's true. The time stolen from Snow and Charming and Emma is priceless ... and irreplaceable. There is nothing that can give them that time back, nothing that can give Emma a second childhood in which she's raised by her loving parents and nothing that can allow Snow and Charming to raise their little girl, and they should be furious and hurt and everything in between. My problem was the lack of follow-through. This is 100% a writing issue but Snow spends what, half of the next episode furious at Charming over his secret. And when they do hash it out, she tells him that she would "happily" spend eternity dodging Lost Boys with him, and neither one of them even so much as mention their daughter. The daughter who, as KAOS Agent pointed out, had just told Snow like three days ago that she still feels like the orphan she grew up as and whom Snow had just promised like three days ago she was going to help change that. Sorry to tell you, Snow, but your daughter kinda can't not feel like an orphan anymore if her parents are trapped in a realm she can't easily visit. And I get that Snow's decision was an impossible one to make but my problem was it didn't seem like she struggled with it at all. It was "of course I'll stay with you, Charming" while neither one of them seems to consider what that means for the rest of their family. So we have Snow spending half an episode pissed at Charming but never once does she seem to stop and think, "Gee, if I'm this upset about Charming's secret, maybe Emma's upset about my secret. I should ask her if she's okay." And when the last thing we get from Emma on the subject is her dropping her eyes from her mother when she says "Our relationship with her is unique but it's not what I wanted," how are we supposed to take that? Is she ultimately okay with it? Is she just burying the pain because that's what she does? Where is her head at? As her mother, shouldn't Snow want to know the answer to those questions? As a viewer, I certainly want to know, and it irritates me that I don't.

That's meta-level analysis, though. Of course the as-written relationship suffers from a case of writer disinterest. However, that disinterest informs what ends up becoming canon. For example, we weren't shown Charming and Snow grieving Emma during the Missing Year, although one would think they would be. Then they think of her when their asses are in the fire. If the writers hadn't been so disinterested in everyone's grief but Regina's or had anyone other than Charming telling Neal that Emma and Henry were lost for good, it would have looked less like they only were interested in getting back to her when they needed her. But the writers didn't. And the way it played out, it looked to me exactly like they were only interested in getting back to her because they needed her. Seeing what has played out onscreen, I can see why an in-show Emma would believe that she needs to be the savior to be loved. There's precedent for it (way back in 1x08 where she lets slip to Mary Margaret that she doesn't quite know where she'd fit into Henry's life if she's not the hero). Everyone around her keeps pushing savior. She herself wasn't enough for her parents not to surrender to Neverland. They didn't fight to stay with her; she fought to stay with them. They told her they cast the second curse to get to her so she could fight Zelena. It wasn't "we missed you" or "we wanted to be with you" or "we couldn't live without you." It was " we needed you to save us." Whether they mean to or not, all they're doing when they tell her things like that is throwing more fuel on the "they only want me around because they need me" fire.

Completely agree. Ingrid even brought this up ("How many times have you felt more like a savior than their daughter?"). And yes, I know Ingrid was emotionally manipulating Emma, but the emotional manipulation wouldn't have worked so well if there weren't nuggets of truth in what she was saying. Emma expressed to Elsa that she doesn't even know what the hell being the savior means, but even after that, she keeps using the title. And I think she keeps using the title because everyone else does. Right now, she thinks it's on her to bring back the happy endings (because that's what Henry told her that's what being the savior is). Basically, I think she's trying to find a way to matter to these people. Because Emma Swan has never been enough for anyone. Even Ingrid, the only person who was ever going to adopt her, was looking for her because of her powers. Emma Swan as herself was just a little girl who didn't matter and didn't think she ever would. She can't see that she matters because she's Emma Swan. She thinks she matters because she's the savior. And frankly, the more others harp on savior, savior, savior, the more it reinforces this notion.

From the Social Issues thread: This is assuming the show remembers its own mythology but I always assumed that the breaking of the Dark Curse was just the beginning. Crazy!Imprisoned!Rumple in the pilot had that line about "the final battle will begin," and that can't just be the breaking of the Curse because there was no battle to speak of. So yes, Regina took away the Happy Endings with the Curse, but, as we've seen, the breaking of the Curse did not guarantee the return of the Happy Endings. If there is really supposed to be some sort of Final Battle, I'm assuming that's the forces of good vs the forces of evil. There are some characters who will obviously be on the good side (Snow, Charming, Emma, etc) and some characters who will obviously be on the evil side (any villain they haven't used or any villain they've resurrected by the final season) and some characters whose allegiances are up in the air (Regina, possibly Rumple). I would like to think that Emma, whose power comes from and who is the embodiment of the most powerful magic in all the realms, would be instrumental in this fight. (Of course, now watch and this Final Battle will end up being like the unnamed Catastrophe the people from the future were trying to avoid in The 4400, heh.)

Taking my response to the Continuity thread.

I've spent my New Year's Eve attempting to clear my computer of a rather far-reaching malware infection. I hope y'all are having a better night than I am!

Exactly. I'm not saying she should run every time the Charmings call, but her son, at the time of those calls, was being cared for by these people. People don't tend to call multiple times in succession unless it's an emergency. Hell, I once had a minor freakout when I checked my phone to find I had two missed calls from my mom about a minute apart. It turned out she'd pocket-dialed me, but my thought process while calling her back was pretty much, "OMG what the hell happened something must be wrong" even though there were no messages because she'd called me twice.

The most incomprehensible thing is the only person in the book who got their happy ending was flippin' Regina. WTF, show??!