DeepRunner

Jim Carter has been nominated three times. (He was a scream in Top Secret, way earlier in his career.) Same for Michelle Dockery. Dame Maggie has been nominated four times, winning twice, but one of those wins was for S1, when Downton was in the Miniseries/Movie category. Joanne Froggatt has been nominated twice. Likewise for Hugh Bonneville. Looking toward the future, assuming there is good writing and acting, much as I dislike his character, I think Rob James-Collier deserves a nomination. I would like to see Laura Carmichael nominated, as also Phyllis Logan, Penelope Wilton (it would be great if she won and they said, "Yes, we know who you are."), and Sophie McShera. Bates grates on people, so I wonder if Brendan Coyle will get another nomination.

I, too, was surprised that Phyllis Logan had not gotten a nomination. Less so about Laura Carmichael, even though she is great. I concur with the sentiment that Breaking Bad was going to take the awards this year. It was the "gold watch" edition of the Emmys. And, one thought that has crossed my mind since Monday...Anna Bates was never gonna beat Anna Gunn this year. Just for grins and giggles, I looked-up just how many PBS shows have won Primetime Best Drama at the Emmys, and there are only two: Elizabeth R and Upstairs, Downstairs, which won three times, according to Wikipedia. I once had a college class with someone who actually worked for PBS or a PBS station. That person said it was referred to as "egghead TV." And I think that's how audiences view it. If Downton had sharper writing this year, and had been on a commercial network (or maybe even cable), it might have stood a better chance.

What do you think of Downton's performance at the Emmys last night? Were the categories packed too tightly for it to win anything? Was there too much homage for Breaking Bad?

I am not sure that Edith will get a happy ending, especially if Marigold is found out to be her daughter, and that Edith was the mistress to a married man. IIRC, Matthew knew that Gregson was married, but no one else in the family did. Old Uncle Julian has lots more darkness in store for Edith, I agree with that completely. Meantime, Mary has not had to atone for anything she has done, certainly not Pamuk. certainly not her cavalier dealings with others. I am reminded of what Martha told Violet in the CS: The old ways (meaning the privileged class and days of the toffs) were getting further and further away, and Martha's style was the coming thing. What is true for Violet will be true for Mary. The time will come, as it always does, when Mary gets her comeuppance, and, like Thomas getting his, I don't know how many will weep for her. It is intriguing how invested in these characters people are, though. This is a sign of reasonably good storytelling, good acting, and sympathetic contracts being established with the audience.

When I started this thread, I noted that Mary, as a character, doesn't instill a lot of sympathy. People replying to this topic clearly have taken sides in the DA narrative, and the intensity is stronger than I imagined. And I have said, for myself, that it is not that I dislike the character, so much as it is that I find it hard to like her as a character. My overall sense is, there are two elements in play, in any discussion of Mary and Edith: * Fairness. Everyone likes fairness in a story. To many, seemingly more so in this discussion, Edith has been punished. In the story of these characters lives, Mary has always had things turn out her way, not because of luck, but because of what is strongly perceived as preference, while Edith is "unlucky." Mary has been drawn as a major antagonist of Edith. Every story needs someone like Mary, someone who never has to atone for a mistake while being quite cold to others, which can seem unfair to observers of the story. The contrast between these two characters, in terms of the narrative, is pretty clear. This is not to say that Edith has not had her champions in DA, or at least, characters who encouraged fairness and sympathy toward her. Matthew and Branson come to mind, as also Rosamund and Violet. * Equality, which is subtly different from fairness but can be seen as the opposite side of the same coin. Mary will always will be first among equals in this story, and that may be the privilege that attends being the firstborn. It could help explain why Robert and Cora have always spoken well of Mary and looked out for Mary (and Sybil), but were perplexed about what to do about "poor old Edith." FWIW, Michelle Dockery and Laura Carmichael have said they like the interplay between these characters, and have mentioned that there will be more snottiness coming in S5.

That would have been fascinating. For all of Mary's marching toward humanity during S2, she became the Queen of the Hive in S3. She got her man, she got the townspeople waving flags, she got to keep the castle...everything went her way. It would have been interesting to see her revert to S1 Mary in terms of Matthew (the sea monster), but I think Robert would have intervened for the sake of societal appearances if Mary and Matthew were having structural issues in their marriage. (Which, to get tangential for a moment, for all the social considerations Robert has, do we really think he would have kept Thomas on after the Jimmy incident, if he couldn't play Cricket? But that is a question for another thread.)

I had left the Lavinia situation alone, but I do want to weigh-in here. * Lavinia was first and foremost a prop to move the Matthew and Mary story along. OF COURSE, she was going to die from Spanish Flu (or be put on a bus, or find someone else) once Matthew the Maimed became Matthew the Magic Man again * Matthew never seemed very affectionate when Lavinia was in a scene with him * At least early in S2, Mary did all she could to let Matthew and Lavinia be happy together * Mary resisted attempts by Rosamund and Violet to wreck Matthew and Lavinia's relationship * Mary was willing to marry Carlisle to keep the Pamuk secret "Vee-ra" wanted to blare The cold moments for Mary included her chastising Carson for not coming with them to Haxby, even though she knew that Carlisle had tried to hire Anna as a spy. And, oh yeah, she castigated Anna for it to. Also barely lifting her glass, and doing so begrudgingly, when the colonel visiting Downton raised a toast to Edith for taking care of the troops. S2, imo, was the season in which Mary was humanized a great deal. And, as others have noted, her relationship with Edith had thawed some. They worked together to talk Sybil out of eloping with Branson (sorry, he will ALWAYS be Branson to me). But to underscore the dynamic between Mary and Edith, when Sybil died, Edith asked if Mary and she could get along better. Mary, of course, said, "I doubt it," but then offered a token gesture about loving each other as sisters should, "for now." Heaven help Edith if Mary ever finds out her secret.

Badger, consider if it had been Mary with Strallen...I was gonna come up with a real snarky and unflattering dialogue between them, but the fact is, Edith would have made it her life's work to take care of the man she loved. Yes, she was probably feeling lonely, but I think she genuinely loved Strallen, who was a good and honor-bound man. Mary wants and expects her man/men to take care of her. Now think of Mary and her "desire of suitors," as Edith's mom...I mean...as Rosamund calls them. the only thing that matters to her as it concerns Blake is that she now knows he's "one of us." ,Money and land as a toff. Gillingham regretted telling Mary about The Ulster Toff, because, being a fortune hunter himself, or at least seeming that way, I am betting he can see the markers in her. The name "Edith" is from the Middle Ages, and it means, "prosperous in war." That's Edith, the good soldier. The name "Mary" is Hebrew-based, and means wished-for child, rebellion, and bitter. Yep, that's Mary, the wished-for, rebellious, bitter princess.

Well said, @ZulaMay. And it points to seomthing I have been thinking for a whie. I think Fellowes and Neame used standard conventions in casting...The Viprous and Haughty Oldest Child (Mary) who has the air of sophistication and elegance, the Passionate and Rebellious Youngest Sister (Sybil) who had grace, and then...Cinderedith in the middle. There have been comparisons of Edith to another middle child, Jan Brady. I think the comparison is a bit off, because Marcia never administered the beatdown on Jan that Mary does on Edith. For me, using Edith as his Upstairs Torture Doll while smoothing out the rough waves Mary may face shows an intellectual laziness on Fellowes's part. When Matthew died? Season 4 was about Mary coming back into the land of the living. Really? And when Strallen jilted Edith (Robert's line to Strallen about his being happy that Strallen was making Edith happy, and that's quite enough happiness to be going on, was, IMO, the auteur speaking to the audience)? Stiff Upper Lip, Edith, because what spinsters do is get up for breakfast. @HelenaMonster, what did it for me was S3 where Mary is concerned. She may have inherited the snark gene from Violet, but she also inherited her healthy distaste for Americans, and like Violet, she can love Americans when it suits her and they serve her ends. The episode where they tried to extract more Yankee dollars from Martha to save Downton was so telling, considering that is was American money that saved Downton in the first place. Their scorn for Americans is palpable, until Martha comes over from the States for Mary's 21-gun-salute, 5-star wedding. Scheming with Violet to bilk more bucks was hideous. All this, while saying to Cora, "I will be the Countess of Grantham, and to me, the Countess of Grantham lives at Downton Abbey." (If Cora were better written as a character instead of being a bubblehead, she would have reminded Violet and Mary that it was the foolishness of the very British Lord Grantham that put Downton in jeopardy, and that she had been robbed of her own wealth by Violet's husband. But, alas, to paint Americans as smart instead of emptyheaded, crass creatures may be asking for too much.) The sense of entitlement in that statement, trying to scavenge ever more cash so she can keep the castle, summed-up who Mary Crawley is, at heart. As I have said previously, she has good points, and can show compassion. But all too often, she is caught up in "the magnitude of being me." I don't really dislike the character of Mary, but I find it difficult to really like her.

Since there has been discussion here about the dynamic between Mary (the Queen of The Hive) and Edith (Patron Saint of the Eternally-Antagonized), I thought would be good to open this discussion thread. These are two characters who inspire deep and passionate responses, none too favorable for QOTH, and many in defense of the Patron Saint. For me, the contrasts between the two are pretty clear. Here are just a few: * Robert and Cora have always preferred Mary to Edith. It is more than Middle Child Syndrome. A child knowing that his or her parents are comparing and finding that child wanting is soul-destroying * Mary escapes the Scandal of Pamuk, while Edith has Gregson's love child * Mary gets Matthew and the wedding and the carriage ride and the glitz and the Archbishop, while Edith gets jilted at the altar by Strallen with "poor old Travis" looking on * Mary is loved by Carson ("Even a butler has his favorites") and adored by Anna (I want to see the backstory behind that, as this may be Anna's only flaw as a character, so to speak) while none of the servants (except for maybe Daisy in Season 2) have had any sort of relationship with Edith To be fair to the Queen of The Hive, she can show an occasional compassionate streak (certainly with William Mason when his mother was dying), and Violet, who spent S1 obsessed with Mary's inheritance and getting Mary and Matthew together, has of late been the benevolent grandmother to the Patron Saint. So, have at it. What do YOU like about both, either, or neither?

I agree that it would likely not have been easy for The Green Monster to find a job, although I think the Molesley comparison is not necessarily the best one. Mostly because Molesley has been "Edith without the charm" for most of the series. His misfortunes have been well-chronicled, have often been of his own making, and have made him quite cartoonish. But, as it pertains Green, I think that he would have found a job, although Gillingham looks like a prime candidate as Green's escort to the fabled Bus O' Justice. Re: Love Triangles, they often ARE lazy and are used as plot devices. Indeed, "Evelyn Napier" is French for, "How can we find Mary another man?" OTOH, done right, a triangle can provide interesting possibilities. Having Mary say, "Let battle commence," even if only in response to The Ulster Toff posing it as a question, has all the appeal of her saying, "I AM The Prize." A more apt statement for Mary, Mary would be, "May God have mercy on you, because I never will."

After reflecting on it some, I think the stage is set for Jessica, Harvey, Mike, and Donna to team-up to beat Louis, should the firm become PSL. Nothing unifies a band of thieves like a common enemy, and Louis now appears to be that figure of focus. Jessica and Harvey won't sit still under a threat of blackmail, Mike can't afford to, and Donna has no reason to, now that Louis has cut her off. And what we may have at the end of this road, I fear, is Louis as the piñata all over again.

Wow. Just wow. Rick Hoffman brought it. The intensity of the last ten minutes of this episode turned on a little skeleton key that locked-up a great installment and season-ender for Suits. First, a nod to the humanitarian efforts of Harvey and Mike. Trying like heck to get Louis a job, placed with a firm. Now, the stuff that was really good... Louis's scene with Katrina. When she first got to the firm, thought she was a bit much. Her points about loyalty were good. It ultimately cost her her job, for now. But she is firmly in Louis's corner. Louis's scene with Sheila, and perfectly played. She threw him to the curb. Crushed. And you saw his pain. Louis's scene with Robert Zane was perfect, and perfectly played. He threw Louis to the curb. Crushed. And you saw his pain. Louis's scenes with Mike were perfect, and perfectly played. He tried to help Louis, who was inconsolable. Crushed. Louis's scene with Donna was perfect, and perfectly played. You saw his pain. He caught her in her lie. And then tightened the leash on their relationship to the choking point. Louis's scene with Jessica.was...almost perfect. He called her out for the hypocrisy of Mike Ross, and for the haughty tigress she is generally. It would have made it perfect if he had called her what she is. He made the only demand he could make with the huge bargaining he now has...She was "Litt the Hell Up." Here's hoping he gets his name on the door. Wow. Just wow. This was the season of Louis, and it was great, insofar as the focus was on him. This is the best season-ending episode for a show I have seen in a long time, and certainly the best episode of this show this season. Let's see what season 5 brings.

I also read that there would be rivalry between the Crawley sisters this year, and I want to see significant Edith pushback in S5. Mary had the typical Mary line in the CS, when she said she would rather sleep on the roof than share a room with Edith. She has often administered the beatdown on Edith. Yes, Edith got some pretty good digs in during S1, especially over Pamuk dude. But Mary has had the upper hand since. I am looking forward to Edith b-slapping Mary in S5 as much as Mary will do likewise. Just an observation...TPTB have ALWAYS preferred Mary to Edith, and I have never understood why they are more sympathetic to the Queen of the Hive than they are to the red-headed stepchild (stoking the Edith-as-Rosamund's-daughter talk). I think, if Edith were to die, they will write it so that Mary will have grieved more for PATRICK Crawley than she will for EDITH Crawley.

I have seen one review of the S5 opener that says we will learn about the secret that Thomas the Vampire is blackmailing Baxter with. Intriguing.

Well, as stupid as Robert can be, even the Queen of the Hive acknowledged that her father is a good and decent man, given what he did for the Drewes. In terms of who she ends up with, I don't want much like Blake, and Gillingham is only marginally better. Evelyn Napier is a good and decent man, although, a "dull dog." Frankly, put her with some dude from the village or London (Jack Ross?) and be done with it. Mary's character is that of the Entitled Snob, and Julian Fellowes is on record liking this creation of his. It would be true ironic justice for her to end up alone, or worse, with someone like Strallen ("dull as paint"), which would also be sticking yet one more pin in the Edith Torture Doll, which TPTB appear to have a real jones for.

Downton actors goofin' on the water bottle incident...now that is good stuff... http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-28825576 No sign of Dan Stevens in the photo. ;-)

I agree with others in the room here...Louis is what is making this show watchable. Do I think the writers are going to put Louis on a bus (see tvtropes.org, if you don't know the reference)? No, but then I thought the resolution between Cahill and Harvey (crooked SEC guy Woodall) was a little weak. I think they will figure a way to bring Louis home. Rick Hoffman did an EXCELLENT job with that letter. They have also humanized Donna, made her less of a B****-Goddess this season, and I think Katrina is good, as well, although she has seemed to be more of a prop the last coupla episodes. I really liked Gina Torres when she was on Alias, but am finding her character pretty flattened on Suits. I liked Gabriel Macht the first couple of seasons, but think it is time for Harvey to go to another firm and thoroughly go all Michael Corleone, figuratively speaking, against Jessica's firm. That would be fascinating.

Mmmm...I think Pamuk showed more skin than Bates, but then, the scene was different, so...Maybe he was like Axl from The Middle... Re: the discussion of Dan Stevens, it was good for him to get out so that he wouldn't be typecast for the rest of his life. I don't know that he has gone to the extent that Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson have, but he has tried to broaden his horizons. But in the (small) sample of things I have seen on the interwebs, he appears to be a bit more polarizing than I originally thought.

I have seen more (I guess promotional) stills which imply some pretty extensive progress in the Molesley/Baxter relationship. No tonsil hockey or lip unity, but... I am of two minds on this. Mind One: * Molesley deserves some happiness, and probably Baxter, too, and they seem to like each other nice enough, and somewhere in the Downton Universe, people are pulling for this outcome Mind Two: * Come on, it's Molesley. Does that guy EVER catch a break? Does that guy ever DESERVE a break? He has been the Downstairs Butt Monkey for soooooooooooo long. Why break the type? In S1, they treated him with dignity. S2 through S4 they made him the running gag. If he has happiness, great, perfect.

I have seen a still (allegedly) of Season 5 that shows Bates with a cop, definitely not a cop from the end of S2. Would they really send Bates up the river...AGAIN???? Season 3 was unmitigated drudgery with the prison story. Ready for something else. I would like to see this resolved in one of three ways: * Molesley did it. Baxter told him that Green made the moves on her and Molesley sent Green aerodynamically toward the Bus O' Justice * Gillingham did it. He confronted Green, who admitted in a cavalier and contemptuous manner that he was only doing what a man does. Gillingham then dragged him to Terminal Tire Track Therapy * Mary did it. She already knew he did it, and took her vengeance on Green for assaulting her lady's maid, fully believing that the justice system would not come after a member of the nobility

Bates is probably my favorite character in the cast (feeling very much in the minority here, as many if not most members of Downtonia have grown painfully tired of him). He is a complex character with a background that doesn't get revealed much, and there is obviously his dark side that makes him an antihero. Brendan Coyle does an excellent job playing him. I don't know that he is loyal to the family so much as he is loyal to ROBERT, his commanding office in the Boer War, and the officer he served as batman. Bates has shown his faithfulness to Robert, and Robert has done so to Bates. People sigh and shake their heads at Bates, and truly, he has been ill-served by the Vera story line, the time in prison, and, yes, his proximity to the Bus O' Justice. And his trying to save Thomas from unemployment at the end of S3 was...mmm...not believable. Seriously, Bates should have been allowed to leave Thomas "basting on the grill," so to speak. But he is more real than the stuffed-shirt Carson, not as conniving as Thomas, and the Al Neri to Robert's Michael. I hope we get more of his life story before Downton ends, and that he and Anna have some prolonged happiness. As in, more than one episode's worth.

Even though Laura Carmichael said that (and it's not like she could really come out and say, yes, Rosamund is Edith's mum), I don't know that we've heard the last of it. The only person I really want to see Edith administer the beatdown to is Mary. "There's something about Mary"...that makes her a completely unsympathetic character. Scheming, bullying, snotty, self-righteous, insufferably smug...and cruel to Edith. I think Edith got what was coming to her at the end of S1 when Mary fixed her good re: Strallan, but Edith is the upstairs torture doll, and Mary has been happy to administer that treatment throughout the series.

I decided to look-up the show that Rose Leslie is on and yes, it is her (not that you all needed my concurrence ;-) ). Here is a trailer for The Great Fire of London: http://www.digitalspy.com/british-tv/news/a580167/itvs-the-great-fire-londons-burning-in-quick-fire-promo-watch.html#~oLgty98zdcXw5P

Is the red hair the red herring? Although they dropped some pretty loud hints about the possibility, I am having doubts now about Rosamund being Edith's mother. if she were, it would help explain why Edith was treated differently from Mary and Sybil in S1 and S2 as a "Crawley sibling," although it might retcon the exchange that Robert and Cora had in S1 about the "ghastly prospect" of Edith caring for them in their old age. Of course, if it were true, and Mary the b****-goddess were to find out, that would make for some very interesting dynamics.