DeepRunner

I would bet, though, that if it were Mary, there would have been no end to the scene, let alone no writing around one. But then, Fellowes likes the B****-Goddess more.

I have previously said that I think Edith is Rosamund's daughter. If S6 really is the end of the Abbey Road (Beatles reference and pun intended), I would like that to be one of the last great reveals.

I agree with your assessment of Mary, but I'm in the Edith camp, so...Regarding George, yep, where is he? We see Sybbie more than George, it seems. Regarding Sybbie, it would be great if she let "Dork" slip instead of "Donk".

From the top: * Edith was Debbie Downer this episode. Not at least showing good patient form with Mary's new surprise hairstyle made her seem childish and petulant. I think Edith has been ill-served by the Fellowes word processor this season, and especially this episode. At least she owned-up to being Marigold's mummy with the Drewes, although the departure scene was a bit a of non-sequitur. First Mrs. Drewe was in a blinding rage, then she says, basically, "Wait, she needs her teddy bear." One of a couple of scene outs that were head-scratchers. Edith having gone to a hotel with Marigold is a passably interesting way to end episode 6 * Cora calling Robert out on any flirtations he might have had was good. Somewhere, Jane Moorsum sticks in the back of his mind. * Mary is a first-class supreme b****. Her exchange with Mabel Lane Fox at the steeplechase was classic. Telling Mabel that she just wants Gillingham to ride off into the sunset with Mabel seemed to have the unstated, "You can have him now that I'm done with him." Eh, it's Mary. Still like Mabel Lane Fox, though. I would bet heavily on her in any fight. * Blake the Fake planning the "chance meeting" at the steeplechase between Gillingham and Mabel...mmm...still not sold that he doesn't have a vested interest in getting Gillingham off the stage. * Denker is the new Edna/Bunting, an obvious villain. A mouthy lady's maid. 'Nuff said. * The end of Thomas's storyline was a bit like season 3's end. Thomas is who he is. Everyone should accept it. Even Thomas. Too convenient for Baxter to be the one to help him, though. Thomas needs a major gobsmack, and it would have been good to see Baxter do it. The scene out where Baxter is telling Thomas he can be an agent of good, at least his comeback that she was daft was appropriate. * TPTB have turned Molesley into the S1 Molesley: a nice guy, and not a piñata. * Rose in love. Meh... * Anna and Bates...what started as a discussion about "you think I'm a kller, therefore you don't want to bear my evil spawn" turned into a happy, joyous,"You're innocent!" What happened to the original purpose of the conversation? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Another scene out that made it seem like Fellowes was in a hurry to get resolution without addressing the point of the conflict. * The steeplechase was more evidence that Fellowes gets majestic scenery.

I concur with your assessment on Daisy and William. Daisy didn't want to marry him when he was well, she didn't even want to be his girl when he went off to the front. Mrs. Patmore was too busy trying to make things easy on William that she didn't consider Daisy and her conscience. And everyone talking to her in the episode that featured The Return of John Bates (still the coolest character then, and now--I won't ever break from that POV) as though William was her beau, to use Edith's word, only compounded things. The whole storyline was sloppy. William's unrequited feelings for Daisy in S1 was a good story to watch, with Thomas the Vampire living to crush William at every opportunity. The whole thing in S2 seemed like Fellowes was grasping, and there was no payoff. A popular character was killed off, there was a rushed wedding (with Violet administering a major verbal b****-slap beat-down on poor old Travis, one of the best set of lines she ever had), and Daisy was a widow of a man she really didn't love. As far as Matthew and Lavinia go, Mary did try to do the noble thing initially. She could see that Matthew loved Lavinia, but everyone kept pushing her to state her case and make her move--Violet, Rosamund, Carson particularly. OF COURSE she was going to end up with Matthew, because it was what Fellowes and most if not all of Downtonia wanted. But Mary showed some humane behaviors at the start. AS much as I dislike her character, S2 humanized Mary.

Yeah, I agree with you and several others...Carlisle shoulda come back. But he was a plot device to get Mary and Matthew together. As with certain other characters he writes, Fellowes made him totally unsympathetic and many were happy when he got in the car and left the Abbey. I think having him come back, instead of the decent and ever-nice but ever-dull Evelyn Napier, to say nothing of the Greasy Blake or Gillingham, would have been far more entertaining.

Here is how I would like to see the show end: The change in inheritance laws leaves Downton Abbey in Mary's hands, but is not a Y-chromosome magnet and Mary ends up like Norma Desmond, sitting alone in the Big House. I would like to see Anna and Bates happy. I would like to see Edith married, with Marigold. I would like some of the old characters (Gwen, O'Brien, Martha, Harold, Madeline Allsopp) to pass through the Abbey one more time. I would also like to see some folks like Judi Dench, Claudie Blakley, Laurence Fox, Michael Gambon, and Julia Sawalha go through before the final credits roll. I would like to see Daisy go to Mr. Mason's farm. I would like to see Carson and Sgt. Elsie married, but not to each other. As much as I really dislike the character, I would like to see Thomas find some sort of happiness.

My unpopular opinions... 1. Bates is a much better and more important character than anyone is willing to give him credit for 2. Thomas needs to be put on the bus and sent far, far away 3. Daisy is an underutilized and underdeveloped character and, as such, should have gone to Mr. Mason's farm after S3 4. I think we are slowly being spoon-fed Carson and Sgt. Elsie because so many shippers want it, not because they would be a good match 5. Molesley and Baxter? No. Just. No. 6. Mary is NOT the prettiest Crawley girl, nor the most clever 7. Branson remains a character to be eye candy for a large segment of Downton viewers, and not because he has added much since Sybil died, with his constant "I'm not one of you!" 8. The show could lose a major Downstairs character (see O'Brien--please bring her back) but could not lose Robert and survive 9. Robert and Jane Moorsum being together would have been a fascinating study in crossing the social classes, even more than Branson and Sybil 10. Bunting was a good character and is a prime example of Fellowes taking a character who can be interesting and turning the character into something cartoonish

It is likely an article of faith that I am in Edith's corner. In my view, she has long been the Upstairs Torture Doll, and TPTB seem to have schadenfreude regarding Edith's fates and foibles. And yet, some in our community make a compelling case that Edith, as a character, brings much of her misfortune and misery on herself. What say you all? Is Edith the mousey girl of S1, with a biting vindictiveness? Is she the jilted bride of S3 (one of the most unhappy Downton moments, in the top two or three, somewhere after Matthew's Date with the Ditch)? Is she the wronged Crawley child? Is she a self-pitying, Shakespearean character?

Who knows? Maybe in S6, Blake and Barrow can get together....

From the top... * Goodbye, Sarah Bunting. Fellowes' unending love of Toffdom doomed you from the start. For a show that harps on the changing times, it tends to take the Robert Crawley approach, and views change agents as bad. Bunting was a good character. TPTB made her a shrew, but her 'I loved you" line reminds one of Sir Richard Carlisle's last words for Mary Queen of Snarks * Simon Bricker, Bedroom Prowler. Cora liked to have him there and told him to behave, but, COME ON, she knew he wasn't there for the portrait as much as he was for the Horizontal Mambo. Cora should have been more demonstrably indignant toward Simon, but then, that would require that Fellowes believes that Cora has some real passionate feeling and brains instead of the vacuousness that he gives her. Couldn't he at least have put a little of Martha and Harold in Cora? Bricker told Robert what many if not most in Downtonia think, which is that Robert invites men to pay attention to Cora, the way he alternately mistreats and neglects her. Robert's alleged punch was...mmm...ummm....yeah...."gentlemanly." Woulda been better if he had called Bates in to settle matters. Bricker's departure seemed like another callback to Carlisle, as he took one last look upward at the Abbey, but this time, he saw Cora, who was looking down on him. I am wondering if we will see him in S6. * Violet, despairing that Isobel will become a Toff. Meh... * I r-e-a-l-l-y like Mabel Lane Fox. It is good to see someone verbally b****-slap Mary. And speaking of Mary... * Fellowes reminded us that Mary is his favorite child when Branson and Mary were walking up the stairs. "You're nicer than people give you credit for." At least there was some reality in play when she replied, "Not always." * Carson is becoming more unlikable by the moment. * The unctuous Blake needs to get a life instead of helping Mary plot her next move re: Gillingham. He says he got over it, but, if so, why is he so intent on helping Mary make the break? * Get. Rid. of. Mrs. Drew. * And Get. Rid. of. Thomas. I hate this storyline. Baxter was right, you can't change you are. Thomas was good when he was the conniving, grasping underlord, instead of the cardboard cutout aversion therapy Underbutler. * Anna and Bates...murder suspects...seems familiar.. * It was good to see Rosamund. She has transitioned nicely into a stately aunt from the meddling prig she was in S1 and S2 * Rose finds a guy. Meh... All in all, not bad, not great, just sort of...eh....

Mary? Cold? Callous? I am shocked--SHOCKED-- that she would be that way... As far as Blake goes, last season he seemed something of a worthy rival, although I couldn't see Mary the Mudwrestler with him. This episode, he seemed like a used car salesman, without the charm. It was good, though, that he had Mabel Lane Fox with him. She made Mary uncomfortable, and it's always a bit enjoyable seeing Mary squirm.

This episode was not-so-bad. Yes, Gillingham is a creep, but watching Mary get a verbal beat-down from him has all the fascination of a train wreck. Can't look away. I am tired of Mr. Drew and Mrs. Drew. (Isn't it interesting that Edith, in S2, had to deal with the Drakes, and now it's the Drews.) Edith is still a sympathetic character. I want a good outcome for her. I guess I will be the last one standing in defense of Bunting. She is a necessary character who Fellowes has turned into an unnecessary caricature. She was sort of charming in S4, but Fellowes couldn't leave it that. No, she has to be a bore of a boorish boar. The argument with Robert at the dinner party was too much, and Mary the B****-Goddess made the scene even more unwatchable. Eesh. I like that they appear to be giving Cora more of a backbone and/or brain, although they could always give us more cowbell in that department. Robert at least is beginning to wakeup to the fact that Bricker has plans and is trying to execute them. Anna and Bates...mmm...I think you could count the seconds in your head as to how long they were on-screen. Molesley is still Molesley. Baxter is coming along as a character. I don't buy her sympathy for Thomas the Vampire, though. And speaking of Thomas... Just write him out of it once and for all. In the first two or three seasons, he was a good, essential character. Now he's just...there. Trying to change who he is is a droopy storyline, to me, anyway. Carson continues to be an insufferable curmudgeon, and this episode, Mrs. Hughes seemed more like The Reverend Mother.

I thought this was a meh show/series premiere, and that is being generous. Like others, it seemed to me to be a copy of House, although House's snarkiness was clever, whereas Backstrom's seems low-grade lowbrow. The feeling I got after watching THE. WHOLE. PILOT. was that it won't last long. I may watch some of Episode 2, but not sure. In terms of time well-spent, this is a high-investment, low-return type show.

I saw this episode online. I liked it, beginning to end. Like others, I am glad the show avoided the "will they or won't they" narrative between Gordon and the Doctor. Something about her, though, is too...mmm...perfect. Her character seems reasonably honorable, from what I have read online. But Gotham likes to drive home the point that everyone has a secret or a dark side. Or so it seems to me. I am looking forward to the inevitable meeting between her and Barbara. I was sad to see Liza die. She obviously really started to like Don Falcone. His choking her was painful to watch, but at least he did it, and not Victor. Falcone shoulda killed Fish then and there, but then, it would remove a major player way too soon. She may get it in the season finale, though. I like how they are developing Nygma. For just a minute, it seemed like Kringle, in a twisted way, enjoyed his riddle. But then The Beefcake Cop showed-up. And she had no issues saying Nygma creeped her out. I don't think he will kill her, but I think he will inflict some serious psychological damage on her. I like Robin Lord Taylor's Penguin. He makes you wanna root for the bad guy. Great this episode, as all previous. Barbara's parents have Arctic Circle personalities. Cold. 'Nuff said. Gruber's end was a bit disappointing. Let's see what happens with him going forward. Missed Bruce, Alfred, and Cat. All told, 3.85 stars out of 5, en mi libro.

Now that the show has come to the US side of the Atlantic, what I liked for S5 e1: * Rose was OK. At least not annoying like in S4 * Sybbie calling Robert "Donk" * Cora seemed to have a brain and a spine...for most of the episode (see below for the fail) * This episode, for just a bit, it seemed like Fellowes was holding the snobbery of the Blue Noses up for ridicule. Especially Spratt, who after all, is only a butler, and had to be called on his behavior by Violet. Need more of that. What I didn't like: * The dialogue was incredibly stilted * Barrow. Come on, Fellowes. You can let him go. Most won't miss him * Cora threatening Barrow with his job, only to come out in her loopy, dopey, American sappiness to be ever. so. grateful to him for saving Edith's life. (TPTB seem to have a real jones for making sure Cora doesn't look TOO smart. They must forget often that the Yankee dollars of this American Buccaneer saved the lifestyle that Downton Abbey celebrates. Indeed, even Violet commented on Cora's...um...acumen) * How did the fire start again? And how did Edith not notice? * Gillingham's "Indecent Proposal" to Mary. Ya know, Mary, if you want to "sample the menu," in the parlance, you shouldn't be surprised when someone offers, "Take One. Free." Overall, a really "meh" season opener.

As a Bates apologist, I will never...n-e-v-e-r...understand the Bates hate. I get the Thomas hate, the Mary hate (even stirring that up a bit), the Cora hate, etc. Never will understand the Bates hate. Has Fellowes flattened them? YES, like he has all of his characters. After all, in S3 and S4, Cora has been a loopy, dopey American who had more of a brain and a spine in the early seasons. He flattened O'Brien, who was the most fascinating of all the characters. He made Robert a moron. He turned Mary into a 1000-degrees, white-hot B****. I like the characters. Hate the storylines. Which may be what you're saying. S5 will start on this side next Sunday.

He really WAS funny in this movie....A great spoof flick!

Agreed on your last statement, Chattygal. For me, what is intriguing about Bates is his dark side. They haven't tapped into it enough. But then, I like Darth Sidious, Michael Corleone, etc. Bates has always seemed more of an enforcer type, and, although TPTB have let us see some of that aspect, particularly in his exchange with Mrs. Hughes in her sitting room in S4, they haven't let us see enough to make Bates a true antihero.

SMH at the Bates hate. Yes, John Bates is my favorite character. But I think Bates has been done a horrible disservice in the way he has been written over the course of time. I think generally, all the characters have slid since S1. Anna was the show's conscience, Robert was a good and benevolent Earl of Grantham, Mary was interesting if snarky, even Cora was good, ATBE. Unfortunately, too often, the characters have been flattened. Carson sometimes borders on the insufferable, Cora is often dopey, etc. But Anna has been the most steady of all the characters. The rape storyline was ill-conceived and even more poorly executed, and shifted attention too quickly from the victim to Bates. And it has lingered...and lingered...and so on, and so forth, and what have you. If there is a drag on the show, it is the bad concepts and worse writing.

In the end, Mary is who she is as a character. Fellowes has written her a certain way, and he shows an amazing lack of conviction in maintaining her as a liked member of the story. She was interesting in S1, humane in S2, an entitled Countess-to-Be in S3, and since then has lumbered back toward where she is now.

Point A...Violet and Robert were only "proven right" because, in Fellowes's twisted way, Strallan had a conscience and didn't want to condemn Edith to being a nurse to a cripple. Fellowes and Neame just chose to do it in a universe-collapsing, soul-crushing, jilted-at-the-altar-for-the-whole-world-to-see fashion. Point B...Michelle Dockery and Laura Carmichael both have commented about the enjoyment they have in the Mary and Edith sniping returning to levels from previous seasons. It is a safe statement that there is a strong preference for Edith over Mary in this and other threads, but I think it is because of what some DA fans see as a narrative tilted by TPTB toward a favored character and against a character who, though she was a bit of a mousy shrew in S1, has engendered sympathy as the underdog. But, to be fair, Fellowes and Neame have not ALWAYS fawned over Mary. In S1, Robert had one of the best lines ever about Mary, which surprised me. He said Mary was like a child who, after putting a toy down, thinks it will still be there when she wants to play with it again. He said this in direct reponse to Mary manipulating Strallan and throwing Matthew over the side just to prove a point to Edith. In S2, Carlisle calling Mary cold and calculating was quite possibly a shout-out to people who dislike the Ice Queen aspect that is very much her outward persona.

i have been watching this discussion of this episode, and a question has come to mind...Is Mary Crawley "Vida" of Mildred Pierce fame?

One of my biggest issues with Mary and Edith, which I have articulated before, is MARY IS NEVER, EVER, EVER made to atone for anything and most often has good fortune come to her, while Fellowes loads-up the punishment on Edith. Love an older man? Have him jilt her at the altar, while the preferred daughter gets a wedding where the whole town shows up waving flags (don't get me wrong, that was good pageantry for Mary's wedding, and costume pageantry is something Lord Fellowes excels at.) Have each sister engage in premarital sex? Make sure it's Edith who ends up pregnant with a lover presumably killed by the brown-shirts, while Mary only has to lug Pamuk's body across the Abbey and have Violet discredit the story to Mrs. Shrimpy. (Really, if Fellowes had wanted to, or had any sense of justice or creativity, he would have let O'Brien do the deed in divulging...she was the one who wanted discord among the daughters just to wreck Mary, she certainly seemed to have a lady's maid friend who was ready to do Bates in, and lest, we forget, she was the author of "Her Ladyship's soap." But asking Fellowes to utterly crater one of his two favorite villains, the other being Thomas the Vampire, is too much, I guess.) Want her to shakedown her fiance to save the Abbey with his inherited money? OK. Want to have parents pick and choose which daughter(s) are their favorite, and then be condescending to the other? Check. Mary's story and her character were both interesting in S1. After S1, meh...She still has some good qualities, but seriously...The rose-colored glasses that Fellowes uses...oy, vey.