DeepRunner

No, it will be Mary's snarky, superior b-goddess smile...

This is a pro-Mary comment. Intriguing, considering what others have posted so far. Or, at least, if not pro-Mary, concern for bad possibily occurring to a character who does not engender much sympathy at all... Fascinating.

Even though I haven't seen the eppys yet (being on the PBS side of The Pond, after all), I am fascinated at the hatred for Bunting. I think, from what I have read, that Fellowes wanted to paint Bunting with bright acid colors, thus making her completely unsympathetic. Goodness, she's worse than Vera. If what I have been reading is true, Fellowes has done a disservice to the character by making her so flattened and one-dimensional. Plus, I'm sure it doesn't help that Sarah ain't Sybil. She appears to be the Anti-Sybil (or the Anti-Christ, from the looks of most of the comments I have read about her). I thought Bunting was a bit pushy in S4, but she was welcome and provocative in a dreary season that was dedicated to Bringing Back Mary to the Land of the Living Whilst Playing in the Land of the Pigs and Rose "loving" Jack Ross just to give "Mummy" the finger, only to have the Queen of the Hive save her from her folly, plus the dreadful cavorting Prince letter caper that made Bates a forger, and of course, The Rape. I will watch with interest when S5 finally launches Over Here, to see why so many Downtonians are glad to see her go.

A couple of thoughts: * Rose and Susan McClare--Fellowes painted Susan as a shrew (which he seems to do with villains he doesn't like--see "Bunting, Sarah") toward Rose, who seemed to enjoy doing drunken clubbing with married men and getting into almost-marriage relationships for the purposes of sticking it to "Mummy." But the third member of the MacClare Clan ("Good Old Shrimpy") is left out of the equation. Shrimpy was a jerk to Susan, and it can't have helped to see the man she's married to in a loveless marriage express affection (as fathers often do for their little girls). Susan was harsh, but she was a bitter woman in a bitter marriage with a man who didn't love her and a daughter who despised her. * Cora and Edith--Cora the Clueless Yankee (another of Fellowes's etching tools that I find incredibly condescending--Yankees are only good for the money necessary to keep the nobility in power, after all) saying Edith had "fewer advantages" than Mary was like saying, "Edith can't help it, butsaeriously, girl, she's not as beautiful or smart or WANTED as you are." Or after Sybil's first Season, after effusing praise on Sybil, when Edith said, "You never say that to me," all Cora responded with was, "You were very helpful, dear." Fellowes thus used Cora as a brickbat to remind Edith of her place in the family. And then, after having all the village fawn over Mary and Matthew's wedding, and Strallan jilting Edith at the altar, all she could come up with was that she was being "tested," and that things like this would make her stronger. Comforting and concerned, loving words, I'm sure, after a soul-destroying, heart-crushing experience. To the Crawley parents, who, imo, often seem to be an extension of Fellowes's view of Edith, Mary is a diamond, while Edith is slag.

The difference...and I'm not saying it is a MAJOR difference...is that Strallan was a "cripple" in S3, which he openly acknowledged with that specific word. Violet was against it, and Robert was no fan in S1 of Strallan being pitched as a suitor for Mary...Robert said he was at least his (Robert's) age and was "dull as paint." Cora was for it because, at that point, Mary was "damaged goods" over Pamuk. She wanted a married Mary as soon as possible.

Fellowes has oft seemed eager to not have the story move so much as have the Sanctum of Suffering looming over Edith and Anna and Bates. I am not sure why he has such schadenfreude regarding the Agonistes of the Abbey, but seriously, dude...

Someone said a book should be written titled "All the Clothes Were Already Dry," which, I must say, is rather clever. Seeing the sway of the conversation lately, perhaps the sequel could be, "Fellowes, Fans, and The Middle Finger of Misery."

Watching this on Hulu. First thought...Really cool episode. Sending the dirty ponzi schemer skyward was sorta cool. Sword fight was sorta cool. Not as thrilled about the Major Case detectives. Seem to be overacting a bit. Cobblepot is still creepy, Selina Kyle is clever. Cool that they got The Balloonman. Cool that Cobblepot knocked on Gordon's door. Bonus was Markham from Fringe fame. Good episode. Looking forward to the next installment.

Well...other DA boards I have observed, some were OK with Rose, others thought she was a bit of a petulant brat in S4. As far as the

I get it. I really do get it. But the issue should be with Fellowes' dramatic predilections, not the characters, even Mary Queen of Snarks. IIRC, Fellowes originally wrote Bates in large part because of Brendan Coyle's portrayal of Nicholas Higgins in "North and South." But then Fellowes introduced the snuff box caper, followed by the wine thievery, followed by Vera, followed by being forced to leave Anna because of Vera, followed by Vera's death, followed by jail time, followed by...Fellowes has a real jones for writing Bates as retchingly and wretchedly martyr-like. Meh. If Rose is being hailed only in comparison to Sarah Bunting, then...meh. Rose is a polarizing figure, people either like her or they really, really DON'T like her. With

I haven't seen the episode, and have to settle for spoilers until DA airs Over Here, but a couple of observations: * I don't get the depth of the Bates hate. I understand he is pretty well loathed among a preponderance of the citizens of Downtonia; I just find its intensity fascinating. If there is an issue with the character, then look to the character's creator. (FWIW, it really is lazy to do another Bates-is-a-murderer-or-is-he? kind of story. I have been watching s1 again, which was Downton at its best. All the characters, even Mary, Bates, and Thomas and O'Brien, the black-hats, were well-drawn; now each is a cliche of a parody of a caricature, and <sigh> O'Brien has been gone for a while now. The show has not improved much, if at all, with age. I will still watch it when it airs, just sayin'...) * From what I've seen so far, the storyline of Simon and Cora seems intriguing. Will Cora do with Simon what Robert would not do with Jane Moorsum? And if so, will Robert find out? Sex seems to be in the air at the Abbey.

Liked this episode. The mayor looks to be in cahoots with the child snatchers. The scene of Selena Kyle on the bus with that kid, telling him to never talk with someone who is friendly...nicely done. Robin Lord Taylor continues to be creepy as The Penguin. Falcone messing with Fish Mooney's mind...one of them's gonna end up dead, and I am betting it will be Fish. All in all, well done with good pacing. Looking forward to next week and the rest of the season.

Anna has reached out to Thomas before, in S3 when Sybil died. But she harbors a dim view of him. I think it is in Anna's nature to be kind to others while not thinking of them favorably.

As I have noted before, I am Stateside, so I won't see DA until January. But seeing some of the comments about S5E1 indicate to me that Fellowes has hardened his conventions on various characters (Robert as a shouting buffoon, Thomas as a cardboard cutout villain, Cora as the Vacuous Countess, Mary Queen of Snarks, Bates the Hated, etc.) So, if you were to architect it, how would you make things better? What can make the Abbey glisten as it did the first time it hit the screen?

The season premiere was the first time I have watched an episode of Sleepy Hollow. John Noble's character Henry is absolute evil. (If you have seen me in these parts before, you know I am a big Fringe fan, and John Noble is a big reason why.) Liked the interplay between Ichabod and Abbie. Looking forward to future episodes.

Agree on the point about spoilers. From what I've read so far, I am interested to see the first episode when it becomes available here, but only for the Edith, Tom, and Bunting angles. Re: Cora...the first few episodes of the show, maybe even the entire first season, she had a bit of a brain, and even in S2, she had some independence and was a bit more developed than she is now. Now, she has become the Vacuous Countess of Grantham, complete with the Vacant Smile. (Why not let an American have brains, especially an American who $aved Downton with her dough?). I wonder what crosses Elizabeth McGovern's mind when she sees the script, other than the fact that her character still exists and she is therefore grateful.

@HelenaMonster, like your take on Mary, Cora, and Mrs. Hughes. @ZulaMay, I think you are dead-on with Carson.

Hmmm...re: putting DA up against Sunday Night Football, doesn't Downton run on the same night as the Super Bowl? Are the audiences the same for each? I am not saying they are necessarily mutually exclusive (certainly not in my case...I like both), but I would guess the folks who watch Downton would not always watch the NFL. And I don't imagine folks who watch the NFL would always pop the top off a cold beer for the latest in Downtonia. Winter is a bit of a dead zone in American TV, and PBS obviously wants to extend the shelf life of its biggest and most successful franchise. But it is good that Fellowes has stood up to the #silliness that is PBS.

According the PBS cast listing for Season 5, he (David Robb) appears to be... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/programs/features/news/downton-abbey-s5-casting-news/

Now that Downton is at the doors, time to come up with prognostications for the new season. Here are five things I think have a strong chance of happening in S5, as well as an alternate-universe prediction (AUP) underneath each: 1. Mary is the first Crawley who finds out that Marigold is Edith's daughter. This development would be too much for Fellowes to resist. We will also hear the word "bastard" used with the gusto that Horace Bryant used to belt it out about Ethel's baby. (AUP--Robert is the first to find out, and he later learns that Rosamund knew about it. He tells Cora but never reveals it to Mary because he knows how ruthless she can be toward Edith. He will ultimately forgive Edith any shame she brings on the House of Grantham, but will exile Rosamund relationship-wise.) 2. Bates is questioned by the cops on Gillingham's death, and will find himself on the outs with most of the Crawleys (and a goodly number of the downstairs staff. In fact, I am betting it is Thomas who gives him up to the constables). (FWIW, I am tired of the "Bates is a murderer" angle, and it seems Fellowes is too lazy to not flatten characters who were at one time enjoyed. Bates is still my favorite character, but I am ready for something fresh for him and Anna. Bates is Fellowes' downstairs version of Edith: his torture doll. Unfortunately for Bates <sigh>, though, cardboard cutout is all Fellowes seems to care about writing certain stories.) (AUP--Bates is questioned and arrested but is spared a trial when evidence that he did NOT do it comes to light. That evidence will point to Gillingham having done it, which ends any hope he has of ending up as the Drone to the Queen Bee.) 3. Daisy finds herself a man. (AUP--Daisy falls in love with a man who has ill feelings for Mr. Mason. She must choose between the man who has her heart, and the man who has only ever had a heart of gold toward her.) 4. Branson does NOT leave the Abbey. He continues to manage the estate (AUP--Branson finally leaves the Abbey for Ireland, The Continent, or America. The specter of Sarah Bunting looms over him the entire season, even if she doesn't appear in every episode.) 5. Isobel chooses Clarkson over Merton. (AUP--A third,as yet unidentified, suitor enters the picture, and Isobel can't choose any of them.) Bonus Prediction: OK, so there you have it. That's my take. What's YOURS?

Being from the US, I have to say that, in the days of Interweb spoilers, it is time for PBS to just move Downton to the fall lineup. I know that I will watch it when it comes to The States in January, even as a I track its progress from September on. But it's silly for PBS to insist that it run on this side of the pond four months after it starts its run "Over There." (Slight nod to Fringe with that ending) Thoughts, anyone?

Edith's love affairs, so to speak, have had a mix of mystery and heartbreak. There is something of Jane Eyre in Edith and Gregson's relationship. Gregson is Edith's boss. Soon, there is a moral dilemma; Gregson is a married man who wants to marry Edith, and the wife of the married man is claimed to be insane (gone mad). This is where the similarity ends. We only have Gregson's word for it that his wife is mad, ttbomk. Gregson then disappears in Germany, while Edith is left to care for their child Marigold, who he doesn't know about. And of course, there was being "Stranded by Strallen" (sounds like a New Wave group) at the altar, in which the only happy party ended up being Violet. Rosamund clubbed Edith with a Strallen reference in S4. Mary, otoh, has not had this sort of struggle. She was bedded in her own room by Pamuk without much resistance, then played "will they or won't they" with Matthew, then married Matthew, became a widow, and now has her pick of three dullards (I am still pulling for Napier, the most honorable of the lot). She did own up to the Pamuk incident to Cora, Robert, and Matthew.

Here is Michelle Dockery talking about Mary: That reminds me of her exchange with the ghastly Duke of Crowborough, when Bates found them around Thomas's room: "I always apologize when I'm in the wrong." There is a very humane side to Mary in many instances. That said, I had considered mentioning what @Constantinople said about Mary and Strallen. Mary settled scores with Edith, and crushed her doing it. Edith very much wanted to marry Strallen. Maybe she thought he was the last best chance, since she had most likely done the Season a couple of times by the time she met him. Mary raising her champagne glass to Edith after wrecking the relationship was a "This-is-what-happens-when-you-screw-with-me-Edith" taunt.

@Obviously, I never claimed Edith was an innocent. I have noted that people have taken sides in the debate. (I do sorta wonder, if Edith is Joey Potter, does that make Strallen and Gregson, Dawson and Pacey? ;-) ) When I said the stakes have to be right for Mary to divulge, I was thinking strictly in terms of retaliation for something Edith will do. Since we don't know how things will proceed between the characters in future seasons, we can't say for sure whether it will happen or not. I also have talked about Mary's good points. She DOES have them. She showed incredible growth as a character in S2, But her less-than-approving comments about, and interactions with, Edith, who, to be fair, and as you note, has nothing, make her less attractive as a character to some fans of DA, which I think we all are. Edith has had some pretty crushing defeats as a character; people, whether watching a show, reading a book, or observing the life of someone they know, tend to be more sympathetic toward such. To be fair, Mary has struggled with three "great matters"--the entail, Pamuk, and Matthew's death. Mary's resilience is admirable. But there have been times when the contrasts between their character experiences have caused some to say, "huh..."

Mary doesn't rat out Edith, ONLY IF it is in her best interest not to. What we don't know is what problems Fellowes and Neame will develop for Edith; conflict with Mary is pretty low fruit, and, if the stakes are right for Mary, then it is a good possibility that she would.