WearyTraveler

Truth or fiction?

I'm very much liking the humorous tone of this thread. We're gonna need that while we stand our Watch until the final season

The making of the WW was not one the "oh, shit!" moments that George revealed to D&D. D&D have said in interviews that George revealed three things to them that will be in upcoming books that made them say "oh, shit!". D&D are also on the record saying that moment number one was the burning of Shireen and moment number two was the origin of Hodor's name. Moment number three has not been named or confirmed. Therefore, the making of the WW is not one of THE three "oh, shit!" moments revealed by George to D&D. D&D have also said that the third moment happens toward the end, so, it will probably be in S8. As far as I know, George hasn't confirmed that the CotF created the WW (by dragonglass stake through the heart or by any other means). By all indications, this is a show-only occurrence.

As "oh, shit!" as those moments are, D&D were speaking about moments that have not been written (or at least published) yet. They referred to three things Martin told them he had planned for the next books, so even book readers didn't know about them (i.e we knew about the Red Wedding because it was written and published, so, that doesn't count for these "oh, shit!" moments). D&D said Shireen's burning was moment number one and Hodor's name origins was number two. As far as I know they haven't said what moment number three is, and one would think that after last week's episode, if Ice Dragon were moment number three they would have said something already. But perhaps they haven't because no one has bothered to ask?

If Ice Dragon wasn't the third "oh, shit!" moment, that is a scary thought. The only thing to top that would be for the Walkers to win the war and for Bran to be writing the final chapter from a very, very deep cave, as the Walkers are closing in; or from Ashai because Westeros went the way of The Doom

I was pulling for KC, but Andrew has done extremely well and is a deserving winner. @KCMUSSMAN, thanks for the pictures! I think we lost a lot of the details with the lighting of your room. Awesome job!

I don-t think we will. It seems to me, D&D want the audience to think that Sansa will execute Arya only to surprise us with Sansa ordering LF to die. And then we're supposed to go "OMG! Sansa is SO smart!! I thought LF was manipulating her, but it turned out SHE had him fooled. Go Sansa!!"

If Littlefinger wanted Brienne out of the way and Sansa grants him his wish, the options I see for Sansa's motivation are: 1) Sansa trusts LF and sends Brienne away because she thinks whatever course of action he suggests is the right thing to do 2) Sansa doesn't trust LF, but sends Brienne away to make him believe that she trusts him I think the writers are trying to sell us number 2, but not doing a very good job of it because they want to surprise us with the big reveal of Sansa condemning LF to death and Arya executing him.

Every time I see this thread has been updated, I think I'll come and find something encouraging.... SIGH! EVERY.DAMN.TIME!!!

Preach it!

I agree. But I do think it's likely that many episodes will run long. I think we've a couple this season that went longer than other seasons. I'd guess they are saving many things for the final season, and, if so, they may find that they actually need to run longer than an hour in a couple or more episodes.

There have been rumors that many, if not all, the episodes of S8 will be around the two hour mark. That would make S8 the longest season in terms of total duration.

"Like Sand Through The Hourglass... So Are The Days Of Our Lives" (sorry, sorry. couldn't resist!)

Jon, Bran, Tyrion, Arya, Tormund

Like I said, agree to disagree. I'm not engaging in endless circular conversations. I've made my point and you made yours. You're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you. There's no prize to be won for being "right" / "winning" the argument. And this is not the thread for it, anyway.

@KCMUSSMAN: You're the horn queen, why would you give that job to anyone else, including Roy?!! :-O

The analogy feels perfectly fine to me and I gave a very specific example. Robb did something stupid and then tried to fix his mistake by marrying the girl he had dishonored and offering plenty of reparations, honors and power to Frey for breaking his promise. It's not Robb's fault that Walder then decided to murder hundreds of people. That's on Walder because he's a despicable asshole. Likewise, a woman may decide to walk home alone in the middle of the night in a big city and many would consider that a mistake, or at least taking an unnecessary risk; but that doesn't matter, if she gets raped, it's not her fault. She's a victim. The rape is on the rapist not on her. For me, it's not Robb's fault that Walder is a murderer and it's not Ned's fault that LF is a sociopath and Cersei a power hungry idiot. The ones to blame for the deaths are Walder, LF and Cersei. And, I would add that, given the nature of these people in the books and show, they would have caused the deaths of many no matter what the Starks did. LF would have found a way to cause chaos if Catelyn hadn't fallen for his lies, Tywin would have found a way to obliterate anyone who defied him (like the Reynnes of Castamere) no matter the casualties, Walder would have murdered those he felt offended him, and so on. I don't see how those who may have made mistakes, but are trying to do the right thing and fighting for the right cause are to blame for the evil of others. And I'll leave it at that. Agree to disagree. Plus, this wouldn't be the right thread to continue this discussion.

When Jon and Sam went to say their NW vows beyond the Wall, Ghost went with them and as they were heading back to Castle Black, Ghost bolted and came back with a cadaver's hand. They followed him and found two brothers of the NW who had been in Benjen's ranging party. They carried the bodies back to Castle Black, so, if magic is at work in defending the Wall, the wights got through because the brothers carried them (just as Brandon got through because Sam said the words in front of the gate and it opened for him). Dywen notes that Othor (one of the dead men) didn't have blue eyes before, so, he was a wight before he went through the Wall. They also note the black hands. Once inside the castle, Othor is reanimated and tries to kill Lord Commander Mormont. Ghost attacks him, but he keeps coming. Jon slashes him with Longclaw (Valyrian Steel), and still, it keeps coming. Finally, it's the fire that breaks out in the room that kills it. Valyrian Steel can kill White Walkers, but not wights. Also, the dagger that Sam used to slay the White Walker that was coming for them after the battle at the Fist was made of dragonglass. It is said that Valyrian Steel may contain dragonglass (maybe they ground the stone into dust to make it, or used dragon fire to liquefy it, like lava, and then mixed it with molten steel; nobody knows how to make that metal anymore), which is probably why Sam was able to slay the WW with it. But, dragonglass hasn't been shown to kill a Wight. I think WW can probably survive fire, but not Valyrian Steel / Dragonglass, while the reverse is true for wights. I think they bond to their riders, like the Stark children bond with their wolves. The wolves sensed Lady and Greywind's deaths, without being warged, so can a dragon, I think, bond and understand its rider. There's also instinct and sensory perceptions that must be heightened for a dragon. Take a dog, for example, they can smell changes in the adrenaline level of their owners, and will react to that. When I walk my dog late at night, I know a part of me is on alert and my dog is too, without me having to telepathically communicate with him. If regular animals can read body language and hormone changes so well, mythical animals, such as dragons and direwolves, can probably do it even better. I believe the show has established that a White Walker needs to be present (or at least really close by) to re-animate the body (see the Night's King arms when he reanimates the dead at Hardhome). The message Jon received said the army of the dead was marching south, so, it's very unlikely some lone Walker is going to venture out of formation to reanimate some corpse close to the Wall. If the objective is to capture a wight, the best bet is to march toward the army of the dead and hope that they send scouting parties ahead of their main forces, and they can trap one then. White Walkers haven't been seen in over a thousand years in Westeros. So much so, that even the Night's Watch has forgotten all about them, in the words of Jeor Mormont, its Lord Commander at the time of the events of which you speak. The Maesters, who are considered the epitome of knowledge, don't believe that they even exist (see Maester Luwin telling Bran that those things don't exist). Meanwhile, the NW has had many deserters in the recent past, mainly because the quality of the recruits has diminished considerably. It is the duty of every Lord in the North to catch and behead said deserters, who, off course will try to justify their desertion in any way possible. For all anybody knows, Gared was already a little insane before he was sent to the Wall (not the first time the mentally ill have ended up there), and then continued to lose his mind. This wasn't the first deserter Ned had dealt with, and it wouldn't have been his last if he had not traveled south. But, despite all this, Ned is supposed to have some sort of crystal ball, precognition, or heightened intuition to tell him that this deserter in particular, babbling about things that according to everyone else in Westeros, including the keepers of all knowledge and history, don't even exist, was different than all the rest. That this one was telling the truth, not a bunch of lies to save himself like so many others. That this deserter, with the bug eyes, and incoherent words was not a little crazy or pretending to be crazy to save himself. This one might be telling the truth! For the sake of argument let's say that Ned kept him prisoner and sent a raven to Mormont, what do you suppose Mormont's response would have been? Keep in mind that he had to be attacked by a wight in his own bedroom to start thinking about this threat seriously. I'm going to guess he would have sent a raven back saying something along the lines of "why haven't you executed the foolish traitor yet?". And then everything else would have happened the same way. The first Long Night? No, he made them think he was doing it on their behalf, but LF plays for LF, not for anyone else. He did that because he wanted to take Ned out of "the board" as he calls it. And he wanted Ned out because he married Catelyn and he (LF) never got over that. It was his long awaited revenge against house Stark and house Tully for the slights he believes they imparted on him. No matter how many times I read this take on the facts, I still can't understand why anyone would blame the good guys, the ones trying to do the right thing, the just thing, the honorable thing for the acts of the ones who are clearly evil, cruel sociopaths. It's like blaming the victim for being raped, instead of the rapist. How are LF, Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin, and Walder Frey's despicable actions the Starks' fault? Those guys did cruel, despicable, evil things because they wanted something they didn't have (riches, recognition, power), but they are not to blame for that, no. It's as if they didn't exercise their own free will to choose that particular path. They will be who they are forever, like a wild animal. Apparently, Walder Frey didn't have any other choice but the Red Wedding. He couldn't have accepted Robb's apology, he couldn't have demanded more, if he was so petty. He just had to have everyone murdered, because that is who he is. It's not Walder Frey's fault that he is a mean, spiteful, revengeful, despicable asshole; it's Robb's fault for trying to do the right thing after having taken Jeynne's virginity. Sigh! _______________________ Sansa vs. Jon vs. Arya / Daenery's cruelty or lackthereof A while back, when I was reading the spoilers for this episode and the ones before it, I kept thinking that some of these characterizations were so wrong when compared to the book counterparts. Like Sansa thinks fondly of Arya, she even imagines naming one of her children after her sister, and she also thinks fondly of Jon. Arya also thinks fondly of her sister in the books. Daenerys kills people, but she's conflicted about it, and she does feel compassion and wants the lives of those who follow her to be better. And she's never given herself any of her many titles, her followers did that. So, I keep thinking, what is the purpose of doing these silly rivalries in the show? Who's going to believe any of it? It's all fake drama. Then I come to the forums and see people arguing so strongly that, apparently, you can't be a fan of both characters. You have to be with one or the other. Daenerys has to either be a cruel tyrant or a saint. Arya has to be a murderous, sociopath bitch or a traumatized child. Sansa has to be a brilliant mastermind or an idiot. And then I have my answer. That's why they do it. They know there's no middle ground for some fans and the discussions are endless. Justifying every act their favorite does (good or bad) and vilifying everything the other character does (even when it's a good thing). I wish fandom didn't fall for it so easily.

The ones that tried to kill Old Mormont at the Wall, were slowed by Jon's cuts with Longclaw, which is made of Valyrian steel, but they kept coming. Only the fire that broke out in the room when a candle touched the curtains stopped them.

If Jon's parentage and legitimacy weren't important / significant to the endgame, I doubt the show would invest any time on the subject. As it is, we first had the ToJ reveal where we cut from Baby Jon to grown Jon; this season, Rhaegar has been mentioned every episode, and we just learned he married Lyanna and Jon is a legitimate Targ. Why is the show telling us all this? Why are they specifically spending time on this reveal when given the time it takes people to travel across Westeros now, they are clearly focusing on moving the plot forward at any cost? Because Jon being the rightful heir is important. If it were only about a potential identity crisis for Jon, they didn't need him to be legitimate, he could have an identity crisis by being Rhaegar's bastard son too, but it's about more than that because his being legitimate is important for other reasons. The only reason his legitimacy matters is that it makes him the heir to the Iron Throne. That said, yes, it's true that Westerosi history has precedents for when the law of male primogeniture wasn't followed; it's true there are examples in medieval history when this didn't happen either; it's true that current monarchical rules don't necessarily apply to Westeros; and it's true that the Iron Throne can be taken by right of conquest. However, think about the regular, not obsessed viewer. What do hey know? What do they care about? I mean, I know someone who is not stupid, and still thought, after the ToJ, that Jon was Robert and Lyanna's son. In this episode, the shot paused long enough on the letter to read that it was signed by Sansa, and we still have people in this thread thinking that it was Lysa's letter to Cat. The truth is, most people don't pay as much attention as we do. Things need to be spelled out. Sadly, the majority of the audience doesn't know shit about primogeniture and lines of succession in the real world, much less in Westeros. So, this reveal with Jon is meant to tell everyone that he is the rightful heir, by law. Can someone make a case for Danny being heir? Sure, but look at how much writing you need to do to make that case and think about how they would convey that in a show that has Jon going from Winterfell to Dragonstone to Eastwatch in the space of a month or so because the geography of Westeros is immaterial to the plot points they want to make. Can someone make a case that the Iron Throne belongs to those who can take it? That too, and what better example than Cersei sitting her smug ass in there. But the show is clearly telling us that Cersei sitting there is wrong, wrong, wrong. And the show has made a big deal out of Dany being the rightful heir, as the last Targ in the world. Now the show is making a big deal out Jon being legitimate. It's simple, by law the throne is his. Will that alone make him King of Westeros in the end? Probably not, plus, there's the fact that he doesn't seem to have such ambitions for himself. If he ends up in that chair, it won't be because he actively sought it out or chose it for himself, but because he earned it and because he feels he has the responsibility to take it (as Rhaegar's son and rightful heir). The audience won't care that a hundred something years ago there was a "Dance of the Dragons" war because male primogeniture was ignored. The audience won't care what the many Aegons, Aerysis, and Maekars did in Westeros' past, they won't care that medieval history has examples where male primogeniture was not followed. They will care about what the show has established as the rule of Law in Westeros, which is that male primogeniture wins. That's why it was so important that Robert's children weren't really his but the product of Cersei's infidelity, and that's why we keep hearing about the rightful heir to the throne or to the seat of any major house (even in today's episode, when Tyrion is trying to convince Dickon to bend the knee). And that's why we are learning about Jon's legitimacy. Personally, I think that in the books Martin will go with Targ polygamy to establish this (if he ever finishes, that is). And that Jon's claim, as compared to Danny's and fAegon's will be explored in more depth. We may even have other characters make the arguments many people on these boards are making because in the books, that's probably the purpose of all the history, to create a conflict when it comes to who should rule. But on the show, there's no time for any of that. There's only time for major plot points, battles and dragons. So, yeah, Jon is the rightful heir to the throne on the show.

King Jon can fix that in a heartbeat, though

I'm not sure magic returned when Dany hatched the dragons, after all, we start the story (book and show) with the WW. Other characters tell us they haven't been seen in years, so much so, that people don't believe they exist anymore. But, when we first enter into this story, they are already there. If we believe the show, that WW were created by the CotF, then we know that magic wasn't completely dead before Dany hatched the dragons. Also, the direwolves return to house Stark, signals that magic was already brewing, they hadn't seen a direwolf for ages either.

Yes! Thank you! The sword was forged, and then it was lost. I bet you it's one of the Valyrian Steel ones that keep popping up. I'd even put some money on Jon's current sword being the one, what with it being the northernmost V. steel sword we've heard off. Perhaps after AA perished, the sword was entrusted to house Mormont (or the founder of House Mormont) for safe keeping, and, as so many other things about the WW, the CotF, and Long Night, its history was forgotten.

Actually, he's both: Rhaegar was the fire, Lyanna was the ice, and Jon is a product of the union of the two. Daenerys is only fire

You should read The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco, if you haven't already.