SNeaker

Bingo. I get deeply uncomfortable every time someone says "Dany was always like this, she was just kept in check by her advisors and now they're all gone or she doesn't trust them anymore." Her male advisors. The scary emotional woman had to be kept in check by her coolheaded male advisors. That is what that means. (It's also not accurate,

Both Seasons 7 and 8 would need to be redone to be honest. Similar to Zuleikha (hi!) above, I think Dany's story after arriving in Westeros should have led to her becoming a populist. Once she gets the throne she pisses off the ruling houses -- led by people we the audience have come to love, including the Starks -- because she wants to end or at least lessen their power over their serfs. Those leaders turn around and rebel and the ensuing civil war reeks devastation because now it's with dragons. This would be in keeping with her actions in Essos where she loses control because she's trying to take down hierarchical systems faster than the people can handle it The ensuing economic damage causes the people themselves to rebel against her. This could lead her down a place where she blames the people for not being capable of handling freedom, loses her idealism, and burns it all down.

More like D&D themselves think they could substitute foreshadowing for character development. Unforgivably lazy. I've never in my entire life seen as terrible a hatchet job as was done on Dany.

Based on the description of the scene it sounds like she goes full on mustache twirling mwa ha ha evil in this one with no remorse and only more plans for more killin’ cuz that’s what she do. Does not sound at all like it could be played as tragedy but more like “phew, glad we got rid of THAT crazy bitch.”

What she said was: "Now she knows what happens when people hear the truth about you.” What I got from that was that Sansa now knows that when people hear the truth about Jon, they abandon Dany to support him, whether he wants the throne or not. Just like she told him they would.

I want a video of Dany burning it all down to Pink's "Just Like Fire."

My point is that the notion that Varys was "right" about her is unearned. The same people worried she would do something were the ones who drove her to that point by scheming instead of working with her. Dany wouldn't have burned down KL if she'd taken it at the start of Season 7. She did it in part BECAUSE of people like Varys who essentially created a self-fulfilling prophecy. You want the Mad Queen? You got her. All of these people are "foreigners" if you go back far enough. She was considered a foreigner on Essos also. She never had a home.

Teetering on the edge of madness? Because she was sad her friends died? Because she watched Jon get credit for her work? Maybe he should have stepped in and shown her some support and raised her up and reminded everyone who saved them? He had no reason to believe she would destroy the whole city. She destroyed the whole city because treasonous turncoats were scheming behind her back. All of the people who thought she was mad before she was mad DROVE her mad.

Dany had the worst, dumbest advisors in the world. No one ever gave her an alternative way of taking King's Landing while minimizing casualties. They were just like "erm, no, you can't. That would require death! Let's take Casterly Rock instead and waste time doing this and that and blah blah." If Dany went mad and wanted to burn it all down this episode, maybe it's because even down two dragons and half her armies it took her all of 5 minutes to take King's Landing, something she could have done before losing all her loved ones if she hadn't listened to these morons. And these supposedly brilliant men (one of whom has a flock of "little birds) who know all about the Lannisters and all about KL -- not one of them could come up with a scheme to take down Cersei by some other method if they didn't want to storm the city? Useless. Utterly useless, stupid men. That's not even getting into the fact that they never even attempted any kind of PR. Dany thinks "the people" don't like her? What people? She barely interacted with any people. The xenophobic, treasonous Tarlys? The racist Northerners? No one ever tried a little bit of Margaery style strategy to gain favor among the populace that was already inclined to hate Cersei? Maybe instead of plotting behind her back, her dumbass aides and advisors could have comforted a mourning Dany, talked to her about strategy to win the love of the people just as she did in Essos, and done their fucking jobs. Everything that happened on this show was only able to happen because every single character went stupid.

I think certain bad deeds cancel out certain good ones. Genocide is one of them. If Dany were a real person, the fact that she deliberately slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent civilians for no good reason SHOULD be her legacy. Not one of her good deeds can even be looked back on with admiration. According to all the people telling me I “haven’t been paying attention” Dany has always been out for only herself. Freeing the slaves was just her way of feeling good about herself and gaining admirers, and she showed her brutality while doing it. None of those moments are triumphant in retrospect. If Dany had made some bad decisions with good intentions that cost lives and her legacy could be considered mixed, that would be one thing. This is how her story ends, and this is now the sum total of who she was. A monster who had to be put down. And if the show tries to instill sympathy and claim those across the sea remember her as the “breaker of chains,” then that will be a legacy she doesn’t deserve. They can’t have it both ways. Definitely not a series I will ever rewatch a moment of.

It's not about whether they deserved their endings, it's about the optics. All those women replaced by all those men. This show has always had a diverse array of women, and it has been one of its draws for me. Having the big villain, Cersei, be a woman didn't bother me at all as the show has all kinds of women and Dany to me was the counterpoint to that. Oops, she's a bigger monster. I don't think it "just so happens" the last two were female. And some of those awful men, like Theon, got redemption arcs.

Fair, I forgot about Yara still being alive. Maybe because the show did. More important to have her Uncle Douchebag chewing up scenery.

I used "rule" on purpose. None of those sought to be queen. Margeary did, and she was decent (though her kindness towards the people was presented as savviness to gain their favor, she was in it for the power) but she wasn't really the ruler and didn't have much time to become one before she got blowed up.

They have only shown two female rulers, and both turned out to be monstrous madwomen. Moreover, when Season 7 started, we had one female on the throne and another massive group of female heads of houses looking to put a different woman on the throne. Every single one of those women has been wiped out and the last one standing will have to be put down like a dog next week. All to be replaced by an all male council. The only possible woman left to lead anything is Sansa, likely because she has Stark plot armor and because she's basically the show's creation. (Not a hater, she's actually my fave. It's just the truth.) That's not even getting into how they villainized Dany before she became a villain by having a bunch of stupid stupid men give her bad advice that caused failure after failure and then gaslit her, but we're supposed to think if only she'd listened to these nice reasonable men everything would be ok.

To me the book titles planned of "Winds of Winter" followed by "Dream of Spring" also indicate winter and the others will be dealt with first. He's talked about his obsession with the scouring of the shire and what happens after you save the world. I always imagined that everything would come together too in one big epic showdown, but the more I'm reading up on it lately the more I'm getting the sense that the very bare bones of this is true to the books.

I think you make good points about the sexism and all that but I do think the books were going to end the same way — first the White Walkers then final villain Dany. Ice and Fire are the two threats coming to destroy Westeros. I read the books having first watched the show, so I think in my mind I already had the television “hero edit” and especially “feminist icon” version of Dany in my head. The more I think about it, the more I see that this could make sense in the books. On the show though it’s just sexist unearned garbage.

No, she's also a woman. We were foolish to think they were being set up in opposition to each other, the villainous female ruler vs the just one. The answer is clearly going to be a man.

Wasn't there some spoiler about Dany giving a speech and the people not liking it? They'll probably make it out that she lit them up for rejecting her.

Frodo saved the world. He may have briefly succumbed to the ring, but even volunteering to take it was a huge sacrifice done for totally selfless reasons. It cost him a lot personally, but his mission was altruistic and successful. Dany will have accomplished nothing. She wasn't really pivotal in fighting the dead -- in fact she either accidentally enabled or at least accelerated their coming by providing them with a dragon that destroyed the Wall. To the Westerosi she'll be some crazy lady, another mad Targaryen, who came across the sea to wreak more havoc with her quest for the throne and had to be put down. The fact that she diverted her quest to help the North has already gone unthanked and unacknowledged. Astonishingly, they just all seem to resent her for it. As for Essos, how long will those cities stay free without her across the sea to keep her eye out? The Dothraki? Wiped out. The Unsullied? Gone. Who did she help, in the end? What good did she do? I'm saying all this, by the way, as a Dany fan who is pissed af about all this.

Interesting. I spent a good portion of the movie thinking Leah was "blue" and that she had a crush on Abby (which was why she was so uncomfortable seeing Abby in that costume and when they were dancing together) before I remembered blue's crush on Jon Snow.

Obi Wan and Yoda went into hiding because Jedi were being hunted and slaughtered. They weren't isolating themselves so they could stew in their failure. And as Ulkis, points out, they were waiting for the Skywalker twins to grow up. When Obi-Wan got the message from Leia, he was like "Ok, Luke, time to go!" He was ready to get back in there. Luke gets told they need his help and he's like "life suuuuuuucks we're doomed to fail everything everything is meaningless there is nothing new under the twin suns and evil will always win over good because good is dumb." Which, to be fair, is the message I've been getting from these movies.

I feel like I need a prequel series to this series, only it's impossible without Carrie :(

There are many people in "The Last Jedi" thread right here at previously providing thoughtful, reasoned criticism. It's the best place I've seen for discussion.

Yes, I've wanted to hug this forum for a few days. Even the people I disagree with are disagreeing in thoughtful, respectful ways that recognize we all just have different interpretations and perspectives.

Kylo's turn to the dark side, this massive influence that Snoke supposedly had over him (even before birth?) -- that is stuff that can't be left to the books but barely touched on in the movies and then hilariously dispensed of. Which isn't to say, as so many think I'm saying, that I wanted more Snoke. Snoke sucked. But you can't fix a problem by just slicing it in half and calling it a day. Snoke being a vague figure and not very cool or threatening was a problem, and while getting rid of him so handily was funny, it was also an acknowledgement of the same problem. Now we're left with "everything we're seeing is the result of a character who was never interesting and never mattered. Look, over there, something shiny!"