SNeaker

It may be the middle chapter of Rey, Finn, and Poe's story, but it is the final chapter in Han, Luke, and Leia's story. A story we *thought* ended in victory and peace. Did we think that would mean everything would be easy and they would never suffer hardship from there on out? No, of course not. But the sequel series has pulled the rug out from them and told us that even when we thought our heroes accomplished something, they didn't. The BEST these new movies can say about the original characters is that they fucked up so badly the new characters had to fix their mistakes and only then were THEY able to achieve victory by learning from the originals' fuck ups. So yay, Han, Luke, and Leia existed to fail so others could accomplish something, but, you know, they were "inspirational" or something. Maybe. Until it's time for another sequel series and we find out Rey became a junkie hooked on spices, Poe got thrown out of the military for sexually harassing his superiors, and Finn and Rose had a kid with Force powers that went evil and is the new villain. And on and on we go. My reaction to finding out they were making new Star Wars movies was "why" and when they were including the original characters it was "oh God why no bad." I don't see why they couldn't have told a story much further in the future but connected to this -- for instance, there could be descendants of Skywalkers and Solos, but not necessarily the lead characters. Or to the characters in the new story, the originals could be heroes and legends as they are to us, but it's time for a new legend. I don't think this sequel series has ever had the confidence to tell its own story and be its own thing, to its massive detriment.

Except we don't actually know that he did any of that. All we know is that he took a bunch of kids to train them. There are no details on what that training was, whether Luke even knew anything about the rules of the original Jedi and if he decided to implement them, or -- given what happened to his father because of them -- chuck them. This is one of the most frustrating elements of the sequels to me. We are given precious little details about the intervening years and how things went to hell. Johnson's comparison of Snoke to the Emperor highlights that -- it was one thing to start in the middle of the story the first time and establish "ok, there's an evil Empire led by an Emperor and there is a Rebel Alliance dedicated to restoring a Republic." Awesome. The backstory isn't necessary yet. But once we are IN the story, time jumping by 30 years and saying "it all went to shit, you don't have to know why or how" doesn't work. I actually to need to know how and why to understand how we got here and to care.

I feel like I want to print these words and frame these words

Luke's ending was one of the things that worked for me. He's the only character who had an actual arc and not just a bunch of gotchas. I don't believe in everything that got him there, but his final moments were lovely. It is terrible that Leia will not have her similar, proper ending. She is the true hero of the Star Wars universe. Really just devastating.

Didn't the originals do this when Luke found out the mentor he idolized had been a failure and had lied to him and that the father he idolized was a lie as well and actually his enemy? Why are we acting like these new movies are so Deep and Complex while the originals were shallow and dumb? How do these movies teach that "good will always win in the end" when it turned out good did not win for Luke/Leia/Han? When the curtains close on Ep iX, how will we be sure the heroes won and that there win won't be stolen from them shortly thereafter because they ALSO suck and ALSO ended up as failures? Re: Jedi legacies, the Jedi used to ALL be essentially "Muggleborn." They weren't allowed to procreate. All new Jedi were detected and taken to be trained. The only reason there is a Skywalker lineage is because Anakin broke that (very dumb) rule.

I would be fine with them just having had a kid who was an ordinary kid. Like a Jedi squib. I don't need all Jedi to be Skywalkers or all Skywalkers to be Jedi.

They can *say* it, but it doesn't mean I'll believe it -- that before he ever did anything (so far as we know? again, this period of time is super vague and gives us no sense of what Ben was like as a child and what did that was so scary, it's all just about feeeeeeelings) he was already irredeemable. And, in fact, we're basically given the impression that Luke's aborted attempt was the final straw that sent Ben careening over into the dark side, and that's why Luke's a failure. That maybe if he'd approached it differently, he could have saved him before it was too late. Sent the kid to Jedi rehab and scrubbed the Snoke from his brain.

I am one of those who wanted her to be a Skywalker just so Ren wasn't the only one. To me the tragedy of this child -- the one child of Han and Leia, the nephew and pupil of Luke, the namesake of Obi Wan, the embodiment of all the hopes and dreams of the life and world the original characters wanted to build -- going evil is a huge thing. It's what the entire sequel series hinges on. And it's incredibly poorly developed and explained, leaving the emotional weight of it completely flat. I would have preferred no Skywalker children to this being the only one and it being told so poorly. In Return of the Jedi, Luke refuses to fight Vader instead insisting he can be saved. Vader, who killed scores of people, helped blow up a planet, tortured Leia, put Han in carbonite, cut off Luke's hand knowing it was his son -- was worth saving because Luke sensed the good in him. When it came to his own nephew -- a boy he'd known since birth and presumably loved his whole life, he's all "he hasn't done anything yet, but he feeeeeels evil, so I'mma maybe kill him in his sleep." Wha? Luke? Luke who sees the good in everyone? Who saw it in VADER? I don't buy it. Tell me that Luke *refused* to see it, that he was in denial, that he insisted on trying to save a boy who couldn't be saved because he loved him, and that caused the death of innocents which made him retreat into despair, and I'd believe it. That his strength was also his weakness I'd believe. But not this. I could kind of get behind the idea that Rey -- the little abandoned scavenger orphan -- is their "true" child, if not by blood then by spirit (Han develops a fatherly relationship with her, Luke an uncle/teacher dyanmic), and that she is the one to carry on their legacy, but the problem is Leia, who will not get the chance to be her "mother." I know it's no fault of the filmmakers, but without Carrie there to finish out Leia's story and connect it to Rey's and Kylo's there is no redemption for the Skywalker/Solos, and no weight at all to the rest of Kylo's story. Mother and son didn't even get to have a single scene or exchange of dialogue. And now they never will. It's a problem.

Han and Leia -- failed to build a Republic that could last more than 5 minutes, failed their child, had a failed marriage. Han failed to save his son and was murdered by him instead. Luke -- failed to teach his nephew, failed to build a new Jedi Order, failed to redeem the Skywalker name and legacy.

I feel like I keep seeing some variation of this: Critics: The Last Jedi is an awesome movie because it takes everything about Star Wars and turns it on its head! Burns it to the ground! Completely destroys what you loved and what you believed and tells you all your theories meant nothing! It's a big "fuck you!" to the audience! Media: Fans don't seem to like The Last Jedi and we can't figure out why.

Rey -- why, though? What about what she learned in this movie made her more certain than before? She was pretty certain at the end of the last one that she wanted to help the Resistance. She learned very little about the force. All she did was accept that her parents are dead. But she didn't change or grow in any way. Poe - eh. Finn - again, why? Because now there's another nice girl he connected with? If that was his story, it was not well told. There is so much more to explore with him, and his entire plotline was a waste of time and excruciatingly boring.

In Empire, the story begins years after the first movie, showing the passage of time and how close Han, Leia, and Luke have become. Then it separates Luke from Leia and Han, but each character has a noticeable journey and arc -- they are all three very different at the end than at the beginning. Han and Leia are together throughout, and their dynamic is further explored and developed. At movie's end, we understand the deep bond these three have, and how it is both their weakness and their strength. By contrast, this movie starts right after the last one ended. All established relationships are what they were at the end of the last film, and none of them get any development (Poe and Rey don't even meet for the first time until the end!) All three of the main young leads are in completely separate stories. There is no development, and all three characters are exactly the same at the end of the movie as they were at the start. With Rey, the movie throughout hinted and teased at things happening, but it was all a big "gotcha!" to play with the audience and the fan theories -- "is she a Skywalker and therefore a sibling or cousin of Kylo? Is she not a Skywalker but she and Kylo will fall in love?" -- nope, she has no relation, and she is good and loyal and true. Just like she always was, and she and Ren have no actual connection so killing him should be nbd, especially since she doesn't even have to worry next movie about it hurting Leia since Leia will be gone. Finn became a sidekick in his own story. Poe is a hotshot. Still a hotshot. As for the humor -- I had no issue with the amount of it and laughed a lot, and yes, it is a huge relief after the humorless prequels. But some of it felt like not Star Wars-y type humor, in the sense that it was Whedonesque and sometimes jarring in its contemporary language. Yoda talking about the Jedi texts not being "page turners" for instance.

I thought there were some really great moments in this one...but that's all it was. A collection of cool moments, but no cohesive story, no plot, no arc, no journey. No point.

IF there is going to be an attempt to redeem Ben by Rey, it may not be a burden she is told to shoulder so much as a decision she makes when she finds out more about his/her/their past and/or potential family connection. Luke wasn't instructed to redeem Vader. In fact he was told the opposite. So it really all depends.

Yes, but the reason he's a main character in Star Wars rather than random person #426 is because of his bravery. He's (presumably) no one special as far as the force or his family or being a specially trained and talented pilot, but he put his stamp on this story and this universe by doing something amazing.

I won't cry if he does, but I'm hoping Finn doesn't turn out to have any special powers. To me, the people who do extraordinary things (which Finn did in this movie in a bunch of ways, most importantly having the courage and moral fortitude to defect despite his conditioning) without magic powers are all the more admirable. But I've always been a sucker for the funny sidekicks who are brave, loyal, and good despite not being the "chosen ones."

As far as I'm concerned, Han and Leia did get back together. I mean...then he died. Tragically. But to me the way they were talking about bringing their son "home" and the hug and all that was essentially their getting back together either way. Even if the movie never said it. Even if Han and Leia wouldn't have said it out loud, to me that was it. If Han had failed but still survived, he'd have gone back to Leia and helped with the resistance. That's my head canon, and I'm sticking to it.

Family resemblances are weird anyway. Unless someone seems completely off in coloring (or even race) I never really get the complaints about actors not resembling each other within fictional families. Not everyone looks "just like" someone in their family. The way the genes mix can produce results that don't really resemble anyone. I don't look like anyone in my family. My brother has four sons who look nothing like each other. It happens. I think Ben is meant to have something close to Leia's coloring and Han's height (though Hayden is pretty tall too.) Beyond that it could be anything. We don't know what Han's parents looked like.

We don't actually know yet if Rey is a Skywalker, but I take your point. I would prefer Finn not be a Jedi (or Force sensitive or whatever) because I like having awesome characters who aren't, but I won't complain if he does turn out to be.

Hopefully the fact that Finn is a hero, DID wield a lightsaber without any Force abilities, is the only unique concept in the movies, showed astonishing strength of character and will in defecting from the only life he's ever known for no other reason than recognizing it was wrong, and is basically adorable will mitigate any potential complaints about him not being a Jedi. Han is the most popular character in the series (I feel comfortable saying that), and he's no Jedi, so I think the audience is fine with heroes who aren't Force sensitive. Doing it without any special abilities only makes it more brave and honorable. Yeah. Everything about Rey in this movie screamed someone who had repressed memories, either magically or psychologically. Even outside her abilities with the Force, knowing how to fly the Falcon or understanding Chewie could potentially be hints at skills she learned as an early child before being abandoned.

When he said "I can take what I want" my mind went to other places besides mind reading. Thank goodness Star Wars doesn't go to those places.

This is how I feel, basically. I get what they were trying to do with him, but I wonder if they really thought through what it would mean for Han's and Leia's stories. To have a child who is essentially even worse than Vader, and that being their legacy...it's bleak. Not what I look for in Star Wars.

For me it's not about whether Ren himself could be redeemed the way Vader was. Maybe he will be. But Vader had to die, and I think, so does Ren. Either way. Unless they somehow go back and say that this whole time he was really completely brainwashed and forced into turning dark by Snoke, Ben can't come back and live a nice life and get married and have kids. That just ain't happening. Which means that whether he is redeemed or not, he's the last Skywalker. I don't consider the redemption of the Skywalker legacy to be Vader's moment of being brought back to the light. Not after all of the terrible things he did. The redemption is through the children who avoid the mistakes of the father and usher in a better future for themselves and for the galaxy with their contributions towards peace and freedom.

That's fine. It's a legit position to take. I just meant to explain why her being a Kenobi (or a random) without also being a Skywalker would require a switch. I don't personally want that switch, not so much because I care specifically about Skywalkers, but because I don't want that to be where their story ends. It's too sad. It's also less compelling for me if Rey is not part of the family because her needing to stop Kylo Ren would have less resonance, and she certainly wouldn't be interested in redeeming him. But I freely admit that's an emotional response.

If she's a Kenobi and not a Skywalker then the...I don't know if I can really say protagonist because Anakin wasn't always the protagonist in the prequels, per se, but let's say then that the fulcrum of the new movies would not be a Skywalker. The prequels were about Anakin's fall to the Dark Side. The originals were about his son redeeming him -- not just by "bringing him back" at the end, but redeeming the family by being a hero who stays a hero. Leia, who is brave and good and true, also serves as that redemption. If Ben is the last Skywalker, then that's the end of their story for all time because I don't think he can make it out of these movies alive. So unless he randomly impregnated someone, that switches the focus to a different family legacy.