Ottis

If I remember correctly, that i what the early years of The Apprentice did, and I really liked that, too. I quit watching after a year of CA, and just now started again with this season because the cast was such a funny group of people. I think Sig wants out because he thinks this is all silly but he won't quit.

I think there is a lot of context to that you may not know. TO was a loud mouth, prima donna WR when he played, and his rep was for being All About TO. When he left the game, it wasn't because he wanted to. He kept trying to come back, and kept himself in what appeared (and appears) to be great shape. But no team wanted the baggage he brought on top of the fact he "lost a step." She he left football unwillingly, and complained about no one giving him a chance. The whole thing added up to a tarnished rep for TO. The way he behaved on The Apprentice was very classy, which surprised the hell out of me, and that is how I took I-on's boardroom remarks. My BIL is a Cowboy fan and he was amazed at how mature TO was on CA. It was so different than what he saw when TO played.

I agree. That could deep six this guilty pleasure show for me.

I'm curious what the team thinks of Sig, because what we have been shown borders on complete absence. And yet, no one says Sig isn't carrying his weight. Sig clearly is lying low, but I suspect he will bust out in a big way soon.

I don't know why mentioning a period embarrasses anyone. It's a biological challenge, that can be overcome or not. Shawn went into it thinking not, from what I could tell. That alone made it worth mentioning, at least the way Shawn approached it. This show annoyed me a few years ago but I'm enjoying these eps for some reason.

Oh, I have little doubt the show will go there. My point was, it makes no sense given the backstories on the two characters. They could have at least had Barry grow up next door vs. in the same household. That won't stop them from manufacturing an unrealistic romance that people who crave shipping will fall for, I know. Depending on how silly it gets, that may be when I bail.

This whole Barry/iris thing is a waste of time. You've been living with her for years, Barry. She doesn't like you that way. In fact, by living with her that long, you are even *less* likely to be a romantic interest for her. She views you as a brother. I don't know why the show keeps going with this. If Iris ever had an interest in Barry, it would have been apparent before now. And if he saves her life and she does the "my hero" thing, that will undermine any credibility Iris has as a thinking character. Barry's dad is shady. No one stays in jail that long, and is that calm, for the reasons he stated. He knows something. And just because Dr. Mystery has the reverse flash suit doesn't mean he is the revrse flash. I agree that Eddie figures into that somehow. All that said, I like this show a lot.

I agree with everything here, but isn't this mostly speculation? I don't recall any episode when Hank or someone said, "Wow, Nick, you are far stronger than you used to be!" or we saw Nick do something in terms of strength or fighting that was clearly due to being a Gimm. He could have been a good fighter before he realized his powers. My point is, it isn't clear (aside from the super hearing,which was clearly tied to the zombie state) what powers a Grimm has aside from identifying wesen and the knowledge from other Grimms. That is what I wish the show would make more clear.

1. They should explain exactly what powers a grimm has. So far all we know is that he can recognize wesen, he has some super hearing that came in part from Nick's temporary zombie state and perhaps some extra strength (not sure). Why do all wesen cower in fear at a grimm? There has to be more behind it than history. 2. They need to explain exactly what being "a royal" means. For the longest time I thought "royals" were extra powerful, special wesen, like archdemons. But we have not seen anyone be especially afraid of Captain Renard since early in the series, when being a "royal" seemed to strike fear into some wesen. And he almost died from gunshots. So is being a royal just being part of a ruling family in Austria, with no real connection to abilities? And the fear is one of a criminal machine, like the mafia, and not of super wesen? I have no idea. Because if being royal *is* being super wesen, why doesn't Renard show it? 3. They need to ban babies from the show for at least a season. The intermix thing has origins far older than Harry Potter, including Nazi Germany.

And that is why I struggle with this. Because if you leave the ending that open, then are you saying anything at all? If what has already happened has no affect on what happens next, then none of it matters. The series could open and close and nothing that happened in between matters. The ending needs to say *something* IMO. Making us guess is pretty empty. In this sense it comes close to the ending of The Sopranos.

I can see that, except ... we already know that Wendy and Nero tried to get out of that life before, and both fell back into it. Wendy, especially, seems to have arrived at a point where she knows that life is dangerous, but it is where she belongs. Nero tried to get out a couple of times, and the club, and Gemma, brought him back. So why do we think they will now stay away? You can argue that Nero reached the breaking point with Gemma and her lies and what they caused, so now he is finally ready to stay away. I can see that, though he doesn't seem angry or detemined so much as resigned. But Wendy, from our perspective as viewers, doesn't even know what happened as the series ends. So we have no idea what her reaction will be or subsequent path. We can *assume* they will both be pushed away, but we don't know. And so why, then, give Abel a Sons ring that he has in his hand as they drive off? Why not have him drop it into the dirt, never to be found again? That's what I mean by Sutter being so muddled. Just that small change with the ring would make the POV more clear that the folks in the car driving to the farm are escaping. Which would also make Jax's suicide more of a sacrifice than it appeared. I can see your point. I'm just saying Sutter could have done this so much better.

All of which *could* be true, but the way it was done makes it anywhere from unclear to unlikely. Why not, as some have posted, have a shot of Abel losing the ring as he played with it, and he and Wendy and Nero drive on? That would have been symbolic of leaving the past behind. Why use a SOA ring if the idea is to show Abel's future breaking from the club? The fact it is SOA indicates a lingering tie, not a break. And given we just watched seven seasons of a son of a Son trying to break away unsuccessfully, the context of showing the son of a son of a Son as he drives away, fiddling with a Sons ring, isn't hope and happiness. The way it was shown, it was like the end of a horror movie, where you think the alien creature has been killed and then you see it had an offspring. Dun-dun-dunnnnnnn. Sutter did this a lot, especially in season seven. There were some nice paths to take that would have made for a tight, clear story, and he muddled them up time after time so that the actual meaning was unclear. The only meaning that seems consistent is that these people "are who they are" and couldn't change, and their fates were destined. Unlike Chucky, I don't accept that.

"Jesus Christ."

I tried to watch the afterwards, twice, and I couldn't do it. It's so grating. There is a lot of haha, insider stuff ("many late nights and bottles of tequila") that are not interesting and make no sense (you needed late nights and alcohol to write scripts?), and not enough actual information about what we saw on the screen. They never got the afterwards thing right, IMO. I rewatched the last few minutes last night and everyone was driving even slower than I remembered it. And I think they made a mistake having Jax pull off the handlebars and drift into the path of the truck so far in advance. At those slow speeds (and going slower with no throttle), he would have been hurt but also could have survived. Plus, for viewers there was no shock to it. He should have been going faster and moved quickly into the lane with arms out. Just a weird sequence that undermined itself. And pretty comical. In all that time they followed Jax, and that many cops showed up behind him, not one of those cops would be coming from the other direction and be able to get *ahead* of Jax? Normal procedure in a car chase is to box in and slow down. Jax never showed any speed or attempt to get away. Why didn't they try to box him in? They were swerving into the oncoming lane enough (I laughed every time they showed the cops swerving back and forth behind him, like they really wanted to speed up but were told not to do it).

This thread would be 20 percent shorter if people would turn on close captioning. I knew truck suicide was his plan as soon as he got on JT's bike, to match his dad's death. Then he was just driving around until he found a truck headed his way. I don't think so. I think we were supposed to believe that was what happened at the beginning of the series, and perhaps even Gemma and Clay believed it, but actually JT saw it coming and offed himself (in a similar manner to Jax) as a move to save his club and go out on his terms. So Jax became what he was trying to escape. But his kids won't (not). I still don't see what Jax saved. Still lots of issues for his club and kids.

What was surprising to me was just how poorly it was done. Just a few examples: Forget the CGI ... that truck looked like it was going 10 mph (maybe even uphill), and Jax was barely going faster. There was no sense of speed or danger. And what was up with the spastic cops behind him? They would weave in and out, and one would sometimes pass the others, but to what end? And why didn't they just shoot his tires (or Jax), or get ahead of him and do a roadblock? And what sort of dumbassses (well they are MCs, I guess) would believe Jax escaped in a shoot out where just one guy got hit in the arm? And Jax-in-a-blanket, at a state building, with NO cops around (and none who show up imediately after the shots were fired), made no sense. And it seemed like it took forever for the Oregon cops to call the Samcro cops when they found Unser and Gemma ... it was well after we saw all the cops and the guy taking the photos. There was an APB out on her and he was an ex-cop, that should have happened within minutes, assuming there was any ID around (and we were given no reason to think there wasn't - shoot, Jax told Patterson that Gemma and Unser were in Oregon, her first call should have been that direction and she would have found out about the bodies being discovered). The bread and wine thing escaped me. I thought it was cake, and kept trying to figure out how "Let them eat cake" fit in. There seemed to be clear Jesus metaphors going on, but I don't know what Jax saved by sacrificing himself. The MC is still in a mess, and his oldest son appears to be headed for the same fate. And as I have posted the last several episodes, I hate that Sutter is saying that these characters had no other choices in life. That isn't true. I tried to get into it, and listen to Jax's final comments on his sad life. But all the dumb stuff kept taking me out of the show. Even with all that said, and with how bad the show had become since those initial great two seasons, I will miss these characters.

So basically we agree, based on what we were shown. My question is, what does Sutter want us to take away from his SOA creation? Because it feels like he is saying these people had no choice, but (as just noted) we don't agree with that. SOA members clearly had a number of choices, and kept making bad ones. If Sutter is saying this was in essence all destined, then that is a load of crap. And I can't figure out what else he might be saying. Chibs seemed to. And BTW, Jax actually at times looked almost relieved that his journey would soon be over.

I think that's endemic to the fact Sutter has always said SOA was based on Hamlet. Almost everyone dies. I haven't read Hamlet in forever, but I wondered if a main character had some kind of injury near the end. I've been surprised at all the talk by Katey and Sutter about her death scene, and how "calm" it was. What else could it have been? You couldn't have Jax tearing around the country in pursuit of his fleeing mother, or battling her with a fork in another kitchen. It *had* to involve acceptance on Gemma's part, because in the end, that's who she was. And Jax really didn't want to have to do it, but in order to "make whole" all the deaths that resulted from Gemma, he had to. There was no other way, and I don't know why Katey or Sutter would think anyone would assume otherwise. I've been thinking about that question of what was the point of the entire series? And I still don't know for sure. It has always been The Sopranos w/bikes, so the idea that, despite all the "normal" aspects of these characters we see, they are bad people who are hoisted by theor own petards, rings true. But unlike The Sopranos, Sutter seems to be saying that none of the SOA gang had any choice, that this life was all they had known, all they could ever have been and steered their every action (including keeping Jax from escaping even when he wanted to). And I don't agree with that.

I think this is as close to an answer as we are going to get. The hospital was a subtle madness compared to the utter craziness of the ZA outside. Done well, that would have been pretty cool. But IMO it wasn't done well, it was too vague. I kept waiting for the reveal of why the hosiptal survivors were so bad, and it never came. There were insinuations and small things (like pushing the older man to the ground), and Dawn was clearly a little nuts, but then who isn't in a ZA? And then it all ended. But I agree with this post, that the hospital was the show giving us an example of lies people tell themselves to hang onto what they need to believe before going insane. The more interesting impact of the hospital is what it will do to Rick, who is already becoing as hard as anyone we have seen during the series. Who will he ever trust? As for Beth, I liked her a lot in this ep, and the actress as well. She showed us a harder Beth, one who was standing up for her beliefs and calling people on their crap instead of running away. It is sad that her character died so randomly. Until then, I thought she was going to become more of a hardened survivor, but with some basic morals.

It felt like the Batman show from the 1960s. By the 3rd or 4th shot, I was kind of giggling. All it needed was a fist fight with the "Bam!" and "Zzzzappp!" balloons. So what did Beth "get" just before she stabbed Dawn? I didn't understand Beth's path. She clearly was working through something. I'm just not sure what. And she arrived at a conclusion. But I don't know how that tied to her stabbing Dawn.

Every time this actor talks, he sounds like a 6-pack a day smoker. Ugh.

I didn't understand this episode much. - So the Ft Smith Mormans died by smallpox ... but the ones we saw at Fort Smith didn't look like they had smallpox, and some clearly were stabbed or attacked. And one dead body appeared to be a Native American. So Indians attacked, but left a horse and livestock? And some people left but others stayed behind? None of this makes sense. - Left with no other option, Cullen decides he wants Naomi after all. So he goes to look for them, taking a month to get to Salt Lake City. Once there, he decides to halt his search (and depend on his new boss to find her) and stay a while and work on the railroad? So his need for Naomi isn't burning, because help or no, a man like Cullen wouldn't stop looking. And he didn't seem to have a desire for revenge against Durant. In fact, they parted amicably. So why now settle down and work on a railroad? To meet The Swede, of course, but that is plot wanking, not logic. - Rather than stay in a more civilized Cheyene, Eva decides to hit the road with a man who fondled her when she was weak, and his crew of women beaters? I thought Eva was trying to bring herself up in a society that disciminates against her. But she will give up on that desire and instead leave with thugs. And why does Mickie give her a gun belt? I assume that sympolized she was a partner, like the Dead Rabbitts? Couldn't she have bought a gun at any time on her own? - Does Joseph Smith know The Swede murders people in order to get Smith what he wants? Surely he suspects it. So is the show saying Smith is no better than Cullen?

Jax's spoken realization of what Gemma had done sucked. He mentioned the deaths of Bobby and West and someone else, but not a word about "all those girls." I'm not usually one to post things along gender lines, but I kept waiting for someone, anyone, to mention them, because that was a lot of deaths all laid at Gema (and Jax's) feet. I assume Nero was thinkng it, but he never said it. It would have been good to hear it voiced. In fact, everyone involved moved on pretty quickly from the thought of all those who died starting when Gemma ID'd the Chinese for Tara's murder. I would have kept saying to Jax, "Wait - your MOM killed Tera! Gemma?!" for a good, long while. That's exactly what he was referring to. We don't know his plans for Gemma, yet. I was surprised Juice told the whole truth. Kept expecting one last cover up for Gemma. I FF'd through the chase scene, as I do all car/bike chase scenes. They add little and all that matters is the end.Never heard the music. Was the lingering shot of the road sign going north a call back to Tera at one point wanting to move her and the kids north away from the club, and the irony of Gemma escaping in that same direction?

Ha, that was good. Thanks for the laugh. Daryl killing the mom and daughter wasn't necessraily for Carol. My first thought when they realized who was making the noise inside the room was that someone would have to "kill" those zombies, otherwise you would never know if a noise was them or someone sneaking up on you. Carol didn't have to do it, but someone should have. Glad Daryl did. I know the show had Carol say "thank you," and lots of viewers seem invested in the Carol/Daryl thing, but he did what he had to do. Burning them was actually dumb, because that would leave a smoke signal for others to investigate. So if that was Daryl being sensitive, well, he is smarter when he isn't.

None of it adds any meaningful info to what we knew. It's like that episode of Lost when the doc gets a tattoo and we learn how we got it. So? he has a tattoo. What's next? Details that explained events in the past that didn't need more explanation. Carol's issues have always clearly included those from her pre-ZA life. And she is still alive, so she had to have hidden somewhere. The show has shown this multiple times before, as Daryl has become less wild redneck and more "civilized." This was just the latest baby step. My earlier comment wasn't meant to mean we literally didn't learn anything new. Every show shows *something* new. The meaning was more that none of what we learned changed anything about what we already knew. People who are into relationships or certain characters might have dug this episode. People into the overall story were marking time. This season has been a slow decent from a great start. Maybe it will have a great ending?