Ottis

I think we are sort of agreeing. Time travel has been done so much that I don't expect a lot from it anymore, and I am not hung up on paradoxes. What i hope for is the time travel to play out in a way that says something. Your example of predeterminism is a good example. And I am waiting for Dark to say something. What I *don't* like is a whole segment on, say, Ulrich breaking out of jail in 1953, finding his (time-traveled) young son, trying to escape back to the tunnel and then being caught before he gets there and put back into jail. Or Jonas and Martha and whether they are in true lurve. Those developments added nothing, aside from little aspects of their characters. There was more and more of that as S2 went on. Is this a battle between good and evil? if so, over what, and for what? Is this humanity vainly attempting to change the laws of physics, and so the lesson is what will happen, will happen? Is there a greater force at work we haven't met? The show seems to be spinning around aimlessly, filling its time with Hannah loves Ulrich and power plant lady is only concerned about herself and etc. etc. This discussions make me remember Babylon 5. Don't know if you watched it, and I suspect it will appear pretty dated today. But B5 did something I thought was awesome when it happened (major spoiler ahead for B5): I keep hoping for something like that from Dark.

I've now watched almost all of the second season (spoiler-free content to follow). And I'm with you. My interest in this show was and is in the actual mystery of the mythology and mechanism for time travel. I don't care about the angst of these characters over the years, beyond getting an overall sense of who they are and their history. The momentum slowed down about midway through season two, because the show paused to fill out character backstories. Some people love that stuff. It bores me to tears. And so many shows fall victim to it (Lost being a primary example). Some people like to say "it's about the characters." No it isn't, not when the wider mythology is fascinating and mysterious and the reason you watch the show.

ITA. I kept waiting for Luther to flip the tables and surprise the bad guys. But honestly, the bad guy stories were all over the place. There was George, then the crazy dude, then the crazy psychiatrist, and Alice, and it was not a tidy set up for Luther to outthink everyone. In fact, I wonder if that was intended. Because this entire season featured a tired and almost fatalistic Luther still trying to save people but also barely giving a shit beyond that for laws, his own life and, possibly, the lives of those close to him. if so, that would fit the concept of Luther evolving as a character. But it leaves him in a dark place. And the only message I can take from that is, good people on the police side can't win in the long run. It changes you to something else. Which, when you think about it, isn't so different from The Wire.

I actually think this season was a thoughtful evolution. Luther has always been presented as a cop that stops just short of rogue. He bent a few small rules at first. But he has continued to evolve, as the world around him has gone to shit. This season, events pushed him over the edge to breaking the law. AT one point, Luther takes Alice to the police station, and she mocks him about doing the right thing (turned out he was doing online research, but still). So Luther's character is still there. Later, Luther positioned it nicely himself at the end, talking to Halladay about how waiting for backup and a warrant could mean that women who are currently alive would then be dead. He wants to break all the rules, regardless of cost, because that is the quickest way to take action, and maybe save lives. This season, Luther firmly and completely crossed to the other side of the line, because when you are dealing with murderers (George) and psychos (Alice) all day, your perspective changes. Plus, Luther always had this potential flaw in his make up. That's what made him such an interesting character from the pilot. The interesting thing this season was that, when Luther did cross the line at the end, it made no difference. All the people in the house were already dead. AND Halladay was shot and killed by Alice outside. So he fully threw away his last vestiges of integrity, *and it didn't matter." Now, he has been arrested. Will it stick? Guess we won't know unless there is more. If there is no more, then the show's ending message, and our character's arc, is sure depressing.

BTW, the millionaire actor was the guy who played Carla's ex husband on Cheers, yes? If not that is a damn close double. I was pondering who that was and suddenly in my head heard that billionaire say, "C-c-carla!"

The way this show handles conflict is refreshing. People argue but also listen, and usually one or the other comes around. Shay's marketing advice vs. Trey's vision was a good example. They both learned something. Not as invested in the (not) baby daddy story. That felt cliched, and honestly, I don't know why anyone believed her without asking first some hard questions. And I still love how Josh both fits in, and is allowed to fit in. Maybe it's because of the constant arguing IRL, but the way this show depicts people of different backgrounds and races connecting makes me want to live there.

I lost interest after meeting the teams in the first ep, and check in now and then. Doesn't appear I'm missing anything except the scenery. This all sound so ridiculous.

They eliminated the pension. I'm a 50-year ST fan, and I have to say, this doesn't look interesting to me. It sounds like an in-depth study of Picard: the Man. I liked Picard, as I did many ST characters (including Discovery's current Pike, who is fantastic), but I'm not interested in his personal crisis of faith. I want something bigger to be at stake. "There are ... FOUR .... Chardonneys!"

The one with Tray’s mom was a beautiful episode. Just really well done by all. And yay Josh.

That has nothing to do with my point. I mean, none of the characters listening to her speech knows who Hitler is, either. The allusion to Hitler propaganda speeches/rallies was for the viewer, not the characters. The show created a setting that resembled something that existed IRL. My point was that it was no accident. I really wish the argument over Dany would stop. Her descent into madness was hinted at in season one and shown throughout every season, and the show's mythology more than foreshadowed it. Her arc was the only one that actually made sense, and built on what was done before. Now, did the shift go downhill fast this season? Sure, and so did everything else. But that's a pacing issue, not a story issue, for Dany. All the complaining over Dany masks the real issues with this season, and gives the producers and actors something to shoot down.

Yeah not buying Fuchs as being able to pull that off. I expected Cristobal and his team to shoot him during his little monologue. All the drama with the actors is too much for me. Barry needs to move on.

Her speech to her troops resembled Nazi films. Her half crazy smile as she gazed at the throne was disturbing. Her explanation to Jon that she, and no one else, knew what a better world was was terrifying. Dany was clearly mad. I don't see how it can be viewed any other way, given what was shown.

She was chillingly mad, in my opinion.

After hating most of this season.... I think I liked it. Most of it.

I’m so annoyed they turned the GoT rap onto Grace and Frankie. They bring out Grey Worm and I’m thinking more GoT cast members will come out as everyday people and I like it. But no. They rap about a show I don’t watch. The “What’s Wrong with this Picture” was funny but was missing a coherent reason for being. First woman to the moon, Hillary against her will. Heh. When Colin laughs he looks like Jim Carey. “Thank you Keenan.” Ouch. The Boston accent is sexy? Who the hell did they poll? That’s the furthest possible from sexy. I like that they write jokes for each other. It’s funnier when it’s not a blatant attempt to be embarrassing and it’s more about how funny the joke is. Is the actual The View as awkward as this skit? DJ Khalid Is like a traveling variety show. Does he manage most of those artists?

Wasn’t the underwear party a photo shoot? I don’t know what PA is trying to say with this show. It has a core of real issues, and then it blows them up into things I don’t recognize.

Actually, they are very much the same scenario. Because at the ages these characters are, my friends and I all had different opportunities, and all moved to different places. They weren't even the places we are now. They were just the beginning of our journeys. That's my point. This show could have ended in a number of ways. They chose the most unrealistic, easiest one - no change. This despite the fact that these characters are at an age, and have the credentials, to have numerous opportunities in front of them. It makes me wonder if, in 10 more years and they are all still there, they all will regret it. As I said, you can remain close friends AND pursue your dreams. The odds of the dreams of 10 people ALL being in the same location they are in now? Tiny, unless they basically give up and don't grow any more. I think it depends on what people like IRL. YMMV, and in my opinion, ending a 12yo show by showing nothing is changing is uninteresting. It may feel comfortable, but it's lazy.

Agree it will change things, but it changes things in the most cliched, unchanging way possible. If they have kids, they put down roots, and its harder to leave. This whole ending was about not changing anything. Leave them frozen in time. Which IMO is the easiest way to end a show. Yes, all sorts of things *could* happen. That plane could go down and they all die. But we didn't see *anything* happen. We didn't even see any implications that anything would happen (i.e., jobs offers for Sheldon and Amy elsewhere). I don't think people mean nothing changed since we met the characters. What people mean is, the ending of the show indicates nothing has or will change at the end of the show. Here's another way this could have ended, which I would have respected more: - Nobel winners Sheldon and Amy get job offers at MIT (or some Ivy league East Coast school) and go there, where Sheldon must now break in a whole new bunch of snobby, East Coast types who think they are smart and must realize Sheldon is smarter. - Howard is called back to the space program to lead an initiative that helps scientists become astronauts, where his fears and vulnerabilities are a strength.... and Bernie's book about the astronaut becomes a smash hit. She leaves her job at the drug company to become a children's book author who doesn't take shit from publishers. - Penny sticks to not having kids, and she is recruited to another company to a C-level position where she is fulfilled and happy, while ironically Leonard is spotted by a Hollywood scout and is cast in a new TV show about a blue collar family in the Midwest (hint, hint, wink) - Raj decides to go to London and see if it works with Anya, and his dad coincidentally moves to London as well where they will spend more time together and seem to realize the value of that - Stuart marries his girlfriend and opens another comic book store - And while all these things are signaled and don't happen yet, the clear message is that through these changes, they all remain friends. I would have liked that a lot better. And it shows effort.

No, I very much do, but that wasn't my point. I'm over 50 and my four closest friends today are from high school - and we live in 5 different states, and have done so for the past 30 years. My point was that the show took the wimpy way out by changing nothing, with a group of people who are award-winning scientists and business leaders. In fact, the show went out of its way to change nothing by avoiding Raj and Anu's storyline, and having Penny get pregnant (despite her insistence until then that she wouldn't have kids). That's not realistic, and it's cowardly. And it's not even good for the fictional characters. That group of people should have many opportunities in their lives already. The show should have addressed that. The test of true friendship isn't remaining friends in arrested development. It's growing and pursuing opportunities and still remaining friends, no matter where you are.

Weak and predictable. They took the easy way out. There is no way that group of people will remain in the same place for long. But the show stuck its fingers in its ears and went nah-nah-nah.

If I had to live in Astoria, I would be depressed every day. That much money for those houses, to live in that location with traffic and crappy weather? No. Way. For that money you could buy a nice house in Georgia AND a beach condo in the Caymans. I count myself lucky that I’m not from there and have no reason to move there. That was one of the saddest HH episodes ever for us.

If that's the case, and it may be, I'm not disagreeing, the show sure didn't play it that way. The show made it look like Howard and Bernie were the heroes, caring about Raj. I don't post in this thread enough (and I'm not a big enough fan of BBT) to know if your take is a majority or minority take. I'll just say I was confused about how the show portrayed Howard and Bernie here, and how their actions actually seemed to be the opposite of how the show portrayed them. At least from my casual watcher position.

I thought Howard and Bernadette's reaction was strange and selfish. Do they not like or trust Anu, and if so, why? Unless there was something they know that we don't, it felt like they were putting their own needs above Raj's. Maybe Anu is the right person to make his life complete. And living in London would be fun. They could all visit. regardless, they aren't all going to be stuck where they are now forever. At some point, one or more of them will move.

Hanks couldn't play the same character, obviously, but I thought maybe it was the continuing adventures of Denzel Washington's lawyer on another AIDS case in Philly, and Hanks produced. Too much?

Agree on both. Maybe he's so intrigued by Barry not giving a shit that he just can't leave it alone. Could mean an even bigger role, which I would enjoy because it would annoy Sally. I've actually been impressed at Gene's knowledge, I thought he was a complete dunderhead. But I have no connection with The Biz so all this coaching is new to me. I was stuck on this, too. We needed to see that something, her relationship with Barry, maybe, had changed Sally. But I haven't seen that. Barry is a prop in her Sally-focused world. Maybe it was her interaction with grown up Sam that did it, but if so, that was subtle. I *can* see Sally casting herself as the face of #MeToo, for the attention, but again we haven't seen any groundwork on that beyond her Sam story. I hope his name is Sam, I've forgotten. That was quite the convoluted evil plot to kill Hank and the gang. Leave them in a hot container, transport them on a school bus to what I assume is an isolated location, and THEN burn the bus? It was missing only the Bond villain explanation.