Wayward Son

I've been thinking on the ratings and in my opinion this is the position the show is likely to be in if it gets certain ratings. If it doesn't sink any lower and maintains a 0.5-0.6 for the rest of the season: The show remains completely safe and we should get a full season order. They may possibly reduce the order from 23 to a standard 22 though. If it falls to 0.4: The show should still be safe, but the CW executives may be feeling nervous. If ratings fall to this level I could see the show getting a reduced order of 13-16 episodes for season 13 and beyond. If it falls to 0.3: The show will definitely be in danger of cancellation. Whether it survives beyond season 13 would probably depend on additional factors such as; does the money gained from Netflix and other streaming services, DVDs and syndication etc offset the loss of advertising venue? Would J2, and possibly M2, be willing to take pay cuts to reduce the overall cost of the show etc? Since the seasons episode count would most likely be reduced (thus reducing J2's workload) I could even see them lowering Misha and Mark from recurring to guest stars to cut costs. 0.2 and below: It would definitely be a final season 13. I could even see the CW taking the Nikita route and giving a very short order of 6-8 episodes to quickly wrap things up. I hope though that we'll keep 0.5 as a low for a while yet. After all it took five years for the series low to turn from a 0.6 to a 0.5. The shows first 0.6 occurred in season seven.

Perez isn't the first sadly. I remember Robbie Thompson also admitted to only watching a limited number of episodes and he uses Super Wiki for all his research instead. Although saying that he must have watched the right episodes because I generally found his characterisation of the main four perfect!

In regards to The Born Again Identity I totally agree that the episode was a jumbled up mess. In my opinion there really should have been two episodes. One which acted as a climax to the Sam hallucinations storyline and another which focused on the return of Cas. The way they did it left most fans feeling shortchanged. Those who are fans of Sam and the Sam/Dean bond felt shortchanged because the episode didn't have time to properly focus on it due to the time used up by Cas' return, those who are fans of Cas and Cas/Dean felt similar annoyance about his return, which was meant to be a pretty big ep for him, being downplayed by important Sam stuff also occurring. Those, like myself, who are fans of both got to experience double the annoyance. In my opinion episode 16 should have been the climax to the Sam storyline and I'd keep Sera Gamble as the writer for that one. Episode 17 would then focus on the return of Cas and it would have been written by Ben Edlund. And as for Daphne I would agree she was nothing but plot device. Personally, I tend to try and go for the simplest solution to unclear facts. So in my opinion Cas and Daphne were married. Generally married couples engage in sexual intercourse. Since the show didn't make a point of showing us that this generalisation didn't apply to them I am going to assume Emmanuel (Cas) and Daphne were having sex.

I plan to respond to everyone properly tomorrow when I'm on the desktop, but I thought I should reply to this now. I only put that note in there because I wanted to avoid the Angel discussion going off track and turning into a Destiel debate. However, I intended for this overall thread to be for the discussion of all sexuality in the verse be it Angels, demons, humans, individual characters etc. So feel free to have a discussion on Guck's sexuality :)

Id love to read everyone's answers to the question I just posted in the All Episodes thread based on this discussion <3

Based on discussion currently occurring in the bitch vs jerk thread. If you were hired by the CW to train new writers for the show and one of the tasks you could give them was to make them watch a total of twenty episodes ( 5 episodes for each of the main characters) to familiarise them with the inner workings of each character what 5 would you pick. So that's 5 episodes that get to the heart of what makes Dean tick, 5 eps that do the same for Sam, 5 eps for Cas and 5 for Crowley. Remember it's what episodes help us get to know these character best. It's not necessarily what episodes you'd count as your favourite ;)

I was originally going to post this in the Unpopular Opinions Thread. However, a friend suggested I might be better off starting a new thread, so those who may feel uncomfortable with detailed discussions relating to sexuality can choose to skip this (and future) discussions if they wish to. If a mod thinks I'm being too cautious and wishes to put this post in that thread that's totally cool and sorry for any inconvenience caused. So to kick start discussion. Im not an expert in biology so maybe a more science inclined member can correct my reasoning, but in my opinion Castiel (and all other angels) should be bi-sexual in the strictest sense of the word with gender playing little to no part in who they romantically fall for. My reason for thinking this is that they aren't human they're "multi dimensional waves of celestial intent". The fact they aren't human, or indeed hold biological origins, means they lack a specific gender. Theoretically, they should also lack the biological impulses that makes humans attracted to certain people. In my opinion Its something akin to cross breeding . Therefore, Angels should either be asexual and utterly repelled by the idea of breeding with a different species (in the way us humans don't feel attracted to animals), or they are capable of sexual attraction, but the fact they aren't human themselves means their bonds with humans should be formed by them developing an appreciation for the personality and soul of a human rather than the gender they happen to be. Since we know from Castiel's attraction to females such as Meg or April (the vessel used by a reaper) and the existence of Nephilims that they are capable of being attracted to humans they can't be asexual. So I think it makes the most sense for them to be bisexual. P.S: I know the writers have established Dean as straight so please try and avoid turning this into a Destiel related discussion ;). My point is purely about the sexual nature of Angels.

Personally I'd say we'd need to drop to a 0.3 for them to outright cancel / last season the show. A 0.4 would definitely make them very nervous but I think the show has enough going for it that they wouldn't cancel just yet. Apparently the CW gets a lot of money for the show from Netflix (they pay extra for every season a show has so Supernatural with its 200+ episode would be quite lucrative). The show is also much cheaper than most CW dramas because it only has two full time leads.

It is sad! I'll always resent Jeremy Carver for making me feel hate towards a character that was one of my absolute favourites on TV. However, while I still strongly disapprove of his actions in season nine I'd say I'm in an overall good place when it comes to Dean these days. I feel sorry for him this season for instance and dislike the crappy apology he was recently forced to give Mary, but I'll not start ranting about that in here. @AwesomO4000 @MysteryGuest Oh yeah I agree with you both about how not sensible SAMs choice was. This is one instance where this Sam boy is firmly on Dean's side. It doesn't make sense, makes him look stupid and is clearly just for the sake of the plot rather than true to the character.

OH GOD. COULD YOU IMAGINE THAT REVEAL SCENE -Mary sobbing over cas' dead body- Mary: "Dean, Sam... Castiel, he's... he was your brother" -cut to the brothers What the feck expression- sorry im twisted ><

The opening scene was probably just an excuse to give a quick nod to the Wincest shippers with the whole boxers thing. Im kidding... kinda haha

My general thoughts / feelings on Dean throughout the years would be... Seasons 1-7: Loved him just as I love Sam and Castiel. That isn't to say I think he was perfect (but then I don't think that of the other two either) but overall he was a character I could feel invested in. Seasons 8-9: Hard to like to outright hateful. I just found the characters overall behaviour throughout those two seasons hard to relate to. For me he was written petty and manipulative at best to outright abusive at worst. I actually stopped watching the show mid season 9 because of the way the writers had made me feel about Dean. That and I was utterly tired of the poor writing and bro on bro angst. I only started watching again last summer (just before season 12) when a friend assured me a lot of the issues I had with the writing at that point had disappeared during eleven. Season 10: I begun to relate to him again or at least found him tolerable. Maybe the fact that I watched the season for the first time after a two and a half year break allowed me to watch more objectively or maybe it was his struggles to maintain his humanity against the MOC. I dunno all I know is the issues I had with 8-9 Dean were lessened here. Season 11-12: The character has become someone I can root and care for again. Probably not to the same extent as Cas and Sam thanks to the damage done by 8-9, but I can at least relate to where he is coming from most of the time and enjoy his scenes again.

I forgot to say in my last post but this weeks episode has swayed me to joining in with those who've said this season seems to be overly favourable to Sam. The only good thing I can say about his portrayal is that (for me at least) Dean is back to being portrayed as a person I can actually care and root for.

I agree about Castiel. My ideal ending for him would be an opportunity for him to live out a mortal life and die. I think he'd be far happier during a finite life on earth than an infinite one in heaven. I think for me personally I'd rather both brothers lived or both died. If only so we can be spared from listening complaints, from the fans of the brother who died, every time the show is mentioned.

I don't think one needs to be a Dean hater to feel Sam was (mostly) justified in what he said to Dean here and that the parts that weren't true were understandable due to the extreme anger he felt. What Dean did to Sam in early season nine was horrific and possibly the darkest thing we've seen any main character do to another. It's for that reason I don't understand the argument that the purge speech was much more horrifying than the ordeal Dean had put Sam through prior to this. Sam was the victim in all of this not Dean. To sum it up What Sam had just been put through thanks to Dean Hurt and betrayal from finding out the person who you trusted most has been lying to you for months and collaborated in what was essentially a supernatural form of rape. The trauma that comes with being possessed for months. An act the show has always likened to both rape and torture due to the loss of self-autonomy involved. Guilt from knowing his body was used to kill a very close friend. Anger from hearing the person who had put you through all of this brassily stating they would do it again. A statement that shows contempt for Sam's right to self-autonomy and highlights the utter selfishness of Dean's action. If Sam makes the decision he is ready to die rather than face possession and Dean goes against this then Dean is doing it for Dean not Sam. What Dean had been put through thanks to Sam Inevitable hurt as a result of a few harsh remarks from Sam. So Im sorry but I don't accept the argument that Sam's words were the horrifying thing in all of this. There were no words that Sam could have said that would ever compare to what he'd just been put through. As for The Purge vs The Prisoner. I would agree that the influence of the Mark of Cain is a factor that separates the two situations. However, the death of Charlie was not. After all, not only had Sam also just lost a close friend (Kevin), but he had the additional burden /guilt of knowing that it was his body used to kill him.

Random question as a result of reading the vampire diaries finale thread; what would your ideal final supernatural episode be like? How would you end things with Sam and Dean? For Cas and Crowley etc. Would they all go out in an epic blaze of glory? Would some live to keep on the good fight? Would some retire into a normal life etc...

For anyone interested in such things next episode will be Misha's 100th credited episode with the show! He will have starred in 98 episodes, received a voice credit for one (Baby) and directed an episode (Mother's Little Helper). Im hoping the fact that next episode is said to focus heavily on Cas means we might get a special episode to celebrate the fact. Probably not but a boy can dream right?

That is the general rule with most shows, but not with Supernatural. Misha and Mark S have been publicly described as series regulars for several seasons now. However, their names only appear at the beginning of episodes they star in. So I'd assume the same will apply to Mark P if he has been promoted. Also because I like sources: The credits begin 0.25 into the video.

What Catrox says usually it goes Starring: Jared Padalecki, Jensen Ackles, Mark Shepherd and Misha Collins. Special Guest Star: The likes of those who play characters significant to the show such as Sam Smith or particularly famous actors. Guests: And the most significant run of the mill guests go here. This time Mark was slotted in between Mark Shepherd and Misha in the starring section.

I just double checked and he's definitely been placed with J2 and M2 in the main credits. So I guess our main cast now is J2M3. I have to confess I am not at all thrilled by this development since I feel the character of Lucifer is exhausted by this point, and this development suggests he'll be around for seasons yet because I couldn't picture him being promoted only to be fired. However, I'm not a hypocrite, or at least I try not to be, so I'll respect his new role on the show. As for the angel stuff I'm hoping it's general forgiveness Castiel seeks rather than family ties. I'll have to give the episode a second watch tomorrow and try to look at certain scenes with a more objective less moody mindset. I found the episode awful and I think it just put me in a bad mood / inclined to see everything in the worst light possible. But usually non regulars like Samantha Smith are separated from the main four. For instance shell usually appear after them with the billing "Special Guest Star". This is one of the rare occasions where I wish I had twitter to ask the writers about this. Who knows maybe they'd answer since it's a casting question and not complaints about the writing.

Just finished the ep! I had to pause a lot due to distractions. My initial reaction... well that episode happened. And I was right to guess that it would be Cas lite with him off in a random B plot. I agree that Cas was wrong not to tell Dean. I wasn't a fan of him seeming to want to return to his "real" family storyline either. It was a crappy episode all round IMO

And we are back on the Dean doesn't overly care about Cas bandwagon again. "He's after something that's been killing angels... again" in the most disinterested tone imaginable without concern that his friend is in the locale of a known angel killer. Good to know -sigh-

I'm in the minority who likes Mick's beard then :D

Quick question; has Mark Pellegrino been promoted to regular? I just happened to notice they placed him between Mark Shepherd and Misha in the main cast credits.

I'm just starting the episode! Wish me luck!